Guild Wars 2

Arken.3725:

Not sure if i’d want all of that, might make the profession too strong.

A few things i’d like to see adjusted:

-More access to swiftness

-Symbols turned into temporary Aura’s.

-Access to more burning or a wider variety of conditions.

-More elite skills that are a little more automated. Example would be I place down a symbol that lasts a long while to provide benefit to the team without me having to use up a skill bar.

With good placement in the trait lines you would not be able to get all of them. I would not expect 1 guardian to be able to get everything I listed.

Sure Guardians can do damage. Sure they can do the buffs and take the damage.

Yet again we come full circle. Read the post from Relentliss.2170.

You will see the point that I am making.

You can all stop trying to call me out on this stuff, it isn’t going to stop me from posting because I am right.

Make sure to read my older posts too, on this same thread. Don’t just jump in half kittened and try to peakitten your way into the spotlight.

Not that it was or was not your intent to stick your neck out Aza.2105, thank you all the same.

Back on track with the actual discussion though…

WW has great AOE damage, it does hit several targets + whirl for combo field.

Only issues with it for me are:
1: after the main target the projectiles are random
2: have to spec so hard to get any damage out of the Guardian in general, meaning you cant take a hits long enough to get good use out of him. (You do your damage and die most of the times) [sPvP you do fine in though.]

The longsword does need some love for that auto attack. Even if Burning is kitten they could at least be consistent with it and put it on the longsword 1 and 2 then soothing like blind on attack 3 ( just a thought, they may be a little broken? Just trying to keep with the Guardian theme. )

Some weakness and vulnerability for the guardian could even help.

I would like to see some of this:

-33% chance to cause Chill on crit

-X% chance to apply weakness on block (instead of Burn)

-Reduce Cooldown of Virtues by X flat amount on crit
or Each Time an attack is blocked

-Gain swiftness when a virtue is used

-10% chance to gain quickness with Virtue of Justice burns a foe

-When you gain (boon) you also gain (boon)
[not sure which boons to pair, Might and Regen, Regen and Aegis, Might and Aegis?]

No worries guys. I’m over all the mud that Amins.3710 and Savish.4205 want to sling at me.

I can move on.

Before I do though, if you play on a backwater server where they leave banners laying around in WvW… I reccomend changing servers to a T1 where you can learn a thing or two.
Come join me on Jade Quarry. I will teach you the ways of my people.

No joke, we fight groups 2-3 times our size and come out on top. Except for Blackgate, those guys got some fight in them. Fighting them on the same week a new living world event poped is a pain.

Back to the Guardian though… I really wish the staff 1 skill was more like the trident.

Possible Longbow options?

With their low health pool, you have to build them for defense or get them a little away from the fight.

Oh, CMF.5461 I will check out the kealing signet tonight and give you some feedback. Also the Defense Trait “Adrenal Health” grants Regen based on Adrenaline too. So I will test the regen with all 3 combinations of those forms of regen.

Since the Guardian has such low damage output, you would think jacking their Health Pool up would fix the balance issue. Then, despite their low damage output they would have more time to get damage out there.

Symbol attacks on the other 1 handed weapons.
Longsword symbol, Scepter Symbol.

Since Symbols can heal this would make more viable setups than just the standard staff and hammer.

The only problem I have with this is how static the symbols are. I really with they were more like temporary aura. Then it is less reliant on the competence of an ally going into the symbol for the buff, or the incompetence of an enemy to be in the symbol, or the need for the hammer to ward them into it. It would also fix a lot of the mobility issue.

When you look at classes like the Necromancer who has the ability to get 4 skills that are all marks, and pick a heal skill that is a well, then get 2 more well utility skills, it makes it easy to justify getting traits for those types of skills because there are enough of them you can get at once to utilize it fully.

With Guardian its a question, “Do I get symbols heal when I have only 1 symbol skill?”

Zealot’s Defense has a shorter range than most ranged attacks so using it vs ranged is mostly useless. (except pistol users)

I find my self with “Hold the Line” all the time. I feel like that is the singularly most useful skill in their arsenal.

CMF.5461:

Let me try to turn this thread around and clarify my intent.

Stealth, burst, and escaping are a strength of rogues which define the class and make them strong
Conditions and control are a strength of necromancers which define the class and make them strong
Illusions and evasions are a strength of mesmers which define the class and make them strong
Mobility and pets are a strength of rangers which defines the class and makes them strong?
Diversity and fluidity (jack of all trades) is a strength of elementalists which defines the class and makes them strong
Offense and attacks are a strength of warriors which defines the class and makes them strong.
Mobility and kits/gadgets are a strength of engineers which defines the class and makes them strong.

So in general, group support and healing are a strength of guardians which defines the class and makes them strong?

Or is this statement not true enough?

What do we have that makes other players worry about if confronting us or celebrate for bringing us?

Granted I’m not fully knowledgeable at all the other profession, so the other statements may be off as well. But that was the intent at my original post.

What do we guardians do that makes people fear/want us?

I do agree to some degree that healing/support are not as high on the appreciation list at the current junction of this game, but hopefully we will start to shift the meta away from just damage eventually.

This whole topic comes on the heels of the zerker is everything mindset, and the overwhelming orientation on defensive mechanics the guardian has. While guards still have a good spotlight in groups for pve and pvp on being supporty and defensive, and we do have a good crowd going offensive….should we bother going offensive, or just play to our strengths? Do we have offensive strengths? or are they just mediocre overall?

Are we still “fine”, as everyone says?

Every AMA or Dev talk/interview I watch the speakers bring us guardians and the consensus is kind of a shrug and a non emotional “guardians? they are ok”.

Nothing real strong or weak, just ok. I think we deserve better/more attention.

There is always room for improvements and I want to push the envelope.

I do agree with you, in excess I might add.

I really do see the “meh” feeling that is given off by a guardian.

That is why the warrior has been my prime example.
He can do the group support and healing role rather nicely.
For that matter so can Engineers. (who also oddly enough get an AOE RALLY?)
[not saying the Engineer is as good at it as the Guardian, I crunched the number, not quite enough Ooph from their skills + it’s too random sometimes)

I understand the Guardian does these things, but how come another class does it better.

Keep warriors the way they are, but show the Guardian some love.

Amins.3710:

AtlasUnbound.1082:

Just a comment on the Guardian hammer…Have you seen the long animation for that last hit? The only way to get the most out of it is to hit a target with it AND an ally as well. Only useful for gate smashing. (Again you are using weapons skills but I will indulge you. The warrior is doing all this with no weapon skills and still out healing you.)

I’ve come to the conclusion you have absolutely no idea how a guardian is played, seeing as you misquoted almost every skill and really just, plain and simply, either don’t understand the mechanics of the class or just haven’t figured it out yet….

On top of that, you do not understand the overall game mechanics of “sources”: Boons Vs. Direct.

G’luck to you, as I truly do not have time to show you the way and clearly, this class is not for you.

Best wishes.

Thank goodness that guy is done talking. I don’t even think he read ANYTHING that I posted. He just assumed I was wrong about something just because I don’t agree with him.

Take a good long read here “Jethro”
I quote many of the Boons that the warrior puts out as well as the Direct healing. (instead of the indirect damage prevention like Protection or Condition Removal)
I think you may need to get a grip on a few of the finer point.

In order to get the most out of the Hammer’s 3 hit you have to hit both an enemy AND an ally. Since the ability does damage AND grants boon (or that tiny tiny thing you call a heal if you get it for symbols though traits)

Base stats on Symbol of Protection (Level 80,no stats applied)
Cast Time: 1 1/4 Seconds!
Damage: 370
Damage (x3): 555
Symbol Duration: 2 seconds
Protection(3stacks): 1 second

Total time to use this is 2.25 seconds due to the first 2 attacks.

But because of the super low health pool, losing 90 toughness (for not having a shield)
AND losing the 62ish defense (you can correct me on that, not sure on that one)
You lose more than you gain in the 3 second interval.
That should be a total defense loss of 152 (toughness is 1:1 for defense)

Next time just try to stick to nice, helpful, CONVERSATION!
You know, a couple of facts and numerical data too maybe.
Instead of trying to be an @$$, then doing a bad job at it.

~Thanks ;-)

But lets take a break from the Shout build I use, lets check out my friend who uses a more Banner oriented build.

He uses 3 banners

- 400-500 HP per second
- +170 Healing
- +10% boon duration
- +170 Toughness
- +170 Vitality
- +170 Power (from traits)
- Each one can cast swiftness
- 1 of them has a heal cast with 10 second CD
- 1 of them can AOE Rally
- That same one can cast Stability
- All of this over a MASSIVE AREA and can be taken to the next location and once they are dropped, no work need be done, its all passive.

Then he just yells “For Great Justice”

Hahahahahaha

I have been playing a Guardian since Beta, so don’t think I am unfamiliar, Blasino.3128.
All of these are supposed to be the strengths of the Guardians, yet the Warrior does it better, faster, and more often, barely has to spec for it, is much more mobile, and still does damage.

At least now that I have a consensus that you are all on the same page and similar builds I know it wasn’t me. I was playing the guardian to their fullest.

All that support and still cant take a real hit ( due to low health pool)

I can get the same effect from my Warrior and stay on the front line like a man.

P.S. Please don’t forget to spell check kids… a little goes a long way.

Though I do love my hammer – perma light field + protection w/ symbols healing, shout build…. which the warrior cannot do… either. /grin[/quote]

[The symbols that heal about 600 HP, not impressed]

- Tome of Courage – 1s casts healing for 1800-2300 for 20s.

[The tome that roots you in place while you get beat on, or the tome that roots you in place and has short range so you can’t actually heal the group in WvW because they moved away from you? Oh wait, they are the same.]

- Empower – 16s Cool down, heals for 3.1k and stacks 12 might.
[ I think you are talking about the ability that roots you in place here too but I’m not sure… oh yea it has a 2.5 sec cast time before the heal goes off. Warrior shouts can heal for just as much and are instant, and can be used while in the fray]

- VoR – ticks for 170+
[This is entirely negligible. The use effect can heal for 2.5K but so can warrior shouts]
[Also if you don’t get shouts heal, Warriors banners heal for 400+ a second]

- Stability (Stand your Ground – Stun Break)
[We already covered this, Warbanner, try to keep up]

- Wall of Reflection

- Sanctuary (or HTL – 35s cool down, heals for 2800 over 7s).
[Hold on to your hats kid, this is about to blow, YOUR MIND. Sanctuary Heals for around 3000 HP, for everyone you can manage to get in that bubble. Which it is inevitable that someone is going to get missed. It also has a 120 SECOND COOL DOWN. Shouts heal, just use FEAR ME! 60 Second CD, Heals for 2500 HP, hits EVERYONE AND buts nearby enemies out of commission for 2-3 seconds. Use it twice, get more healing AND you can MOVE WHILE DOING IT!]

[Say you want to go to Hold The Line instead. BANNER OF TACTICS, Heals for about 30 HP less but over 5.5 seconds, and only has a 10 second cool down, but wait there’s more. That’s right folks, ANYONE can use it, not just the Warrior.]

[NOTE: It also has swiftness AND…. increases healing bower by 170, AND… Boon duration by 10%]

- 80% Swiftness uptime + Light Field for Condition Removal

[You didn’t quote an ability here]

- 2 – 2.5k Ranged AoE heal every 8s.
[Again no quoted ability, I’m guessing you mean

- 1.25-2k Dodge Roll Healing every 6s (don’t even get me started w/ Sigil of Stamina… i’m freak’n yoda w/ this)
- Point Control – LoW

- 150 Toughness to 5 people
[See notes on Banner of Tactics above, also +170 Power from the Warrior traits.]

Its like you all insist on repeating the same discussion that ArchonWing.9480 and I had.

Except you seem to be doing a poor job.

I Really want you to realize the Warrior is doing ALL OF THIS WITH JUST THE LAST 4 SKILLS ON HIS HOT BAR. 3 Utility and 1 Elite skill. Not bringing weapon skills and still keeping up with the Guardian. All the while he can take much more damage, stay in melee range, stun, and bleed his targets.

Or use a bow and combo field with Fire and Blast for AREA MIGHT!

You are going to need a Much better build than support staff Guardian to keep up. Because this Warrior can heal more, buff more often, take more damage, actually put out damage, and do it all while mobile and not rooted to specific area with cast times.

Not to mention the AOE RALLY!

Get your big boy pants on and bring your “A” game guys.

You are not covering any other bases that ArchonWing.9480 and I have not brought up to each other.

Just a comment on the Guardian hammer…Have you seen the long animation for that last hit? The only way to get the most out of it is to hit a target with it AND an ally as well. Only useful for gate smashing. (Again you are using weapons skills but I will indulge you. The warrior is doing all this with no weapon skills and still out healing you.)

[quote=2588627;AtlasUnbound.1082:]

Sorry it took me so long to reply.

I do admit you have several valid points.

First of all I want you to keep in mind I want to play the class the way it was intended.

The only thing I could be accused of is playing a Warrior LIKE a Guardian, not the other way around. Ironically the Warrior is still seeming to do the Guardian’s job better.

This all did star with an offensive warrior build being better at supporting than a support guardian build.

Then he respec’d for it and my jaw hit the keyboard is awe.

I don’t want you to get the idea that these were small differences that made me think, “That seems to be better”

This was an OUTRAGEOUS difference.
These shouts as I tested again last night are healing for around 2400 HP EACH, with a 20 Second cool down using my build.
That’s healing me AND all nearby allies.
Also buffing which negates most conditions.

In order to stack Shouts on a Guardian to change Conditions into Boons. You would almost HAVE to stack 3 shouts because the cool downs are 30-35 seconds on the SHORTEST CD shouts.

Not to mention you have to give up Battle Presence for the condition to boon effect.

Are you really going to give up abilities like Intervention or Sanctuary in place of more Shouts?

Then they give the Guardian greedy traits like Monk’s Focus. Instead of having it heal an ally it heals their self.

Healing Breeze is a cone in front of you so you have to move to the back of the group to hit people instead of having it AOE around you so you can stay out in the front.

So then you have to look at this. The good defensive abilities have such long cool downs compared to the offensive for the guardian.

Sanctuary 180 Seconds
Hallowed Ground 80 Seconds

With their mighty divine magics they ca revive just 1 target?

The warrior waves around a friggin flag and can get as many people up as he can fit in the AOE.

ArchonWing.9480:

AtlasUnbound.1082:

ArchonWing.9480:

Christos de Soufre.3802:

Guardians are bad and need buffs and by the Six Anet pls make us heal for more and do more damage. And more mobility and CC too please, like cripples. Thx.

Guardians are terrible. It takes 5 people to remove me from a circle. It should take 50. I hope all the scrubs get this message and will abandon this class asap and stop making us look bad.

;)

Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE Guardians, but I am finding out that Warriors can do all the same things, just better. As far as all of my play has gone anyway. Maybe its just me? Maybe the Warrior and I just sync better.

P.S. GREAT Quote BTW.

The nature of the class system means that you cannot just take parallel builds and compare it like that. That wouldn’t be very exciting anyways.

So you claim your friend can support better than a guardian? Well, he might be able to get bigger numbers but pray tell, can he remove every condition from his nearby allies with one skill? Or spam removal and turn them into boons. Or create 2 barriers that prevent enemies from coming in? Or bounce projectiles back to the enemy? Or provide protection with every 3rd attack? Group stability?

I don’t play warriors, but I’m just curious.

My build is mostly offense, but I can still provide most of these.

I’m not saying Guards are the best in the game, but I think people aren’t fully aware that they can do a lot more then some would imagine.

And yes, thanks.

First of all, you can compare like that. They should essentially be equal in the build or simply have some trade offs. Here you did list some of these trades so lets go over it. You did make some perfectly valid points. Thank you for that.

“Can he remove every condition from his nearby allies with one skill?”

The answer is a no, not with 1 skill.
However he can get Shouts to remove conditions with Runes of the Soldier, which also buff his allies, and can heal as well should he choose. The heal of EACH SHOUT is higher than the use of the GUARDIAN virtue use effect. Meaning that he can double or triple it if he carries with just “For Great Justice” that has only a 25 second CD! This also give 3 stacks of might that last….. wait for it… that’s right, 25 seconds.

SUM IT UP:
“For Great Justice” (25 second cool down)
- Heal 2000+ HP
- Remove 1 condition
- Fury 8 seconds
- Might x3 25 seconds

Barriers, that’s just a no… 1 point for GUARDIAN.

Reflect Projectiles, Yes, Shield Skill 5 gets a trait for it.

Protection every 3rd attack, no. However it stops 33% of damage dealt. You can also get the same effect from spamming healing effects.
Now say he forgoes the healing shouts in favor of banners granting healing. This becomes a constant Buff that also heals constantly (for more than the guardian passive effect)
That persist until they time out even after downed or death.

Group Stability, yes, from the Battle Standard or Warbanner.
The stability effect is on a 15 second CD and can be used by anyone, not just the warrior. (again, the banner also heals allies if traited)
Not to mention that when the Warbanner drops it revives any downed allies in an AREA!
(This is something the GUARDIAN should have since he is seen as the Divine Magic Defender)
I have seen people on our server fight groups 2-3x larger than us JUST because some warriors were not greedy and brought this ability getting 5-6 players up with it at a time.

Now keep in mind, unlike the symbols these banners are mobile, and their effects are over a larger area.
Each one (except the Battle Standard) adds 170 of one stat.
170 Toughness and Vitality is an example of one of these.

Most of these effects are still achievable on an offensive build for the WARRIOR with just 1 defensive trait line.
Not to mention the MUCH larger health pool they get over the GUARDIAN.

~ Thanks for being civil guys.

akamon.2769:

i think for starters, we need to cease or somehow contain the “if i wanna do X, i’ll just go warrior/ele/what have you”.

take it for what it’s worth, i think it’s true, perhaps we can’t out blind a thief, we can’t out damage a _, we can’t our regen a ranger, etc etc.. but if we want to we can do a LOT of these things VERY well, all. at. the. same. frigging. time. sure, many call us jack of all trades, master of none. is that a terrible thing to be had? and how far off are we from the so-called “masters”? i like to believe that the Guardian’s strength lies in the fact that we can be so versatile, with a huge access to boons, group wide damage mitigation/support, while contributing steady DPS at all times, as long as you’ve took the time to understand how damage is done in the game and are mindful of how you choose your gear and trait your build.

I had a VERY similar train of thought, and trust me, I WANT to GUARDIAN to be that. The issue is, specifically a WARRIOR can do all of those things BETTER. The Warrior has access to “boons, group wide damage mitigation/support, while contributing steady DPS at all times.” All of this with higher numbers on all of them than the GUARDIAN.

You can build a WARRIOR entirely for defense, buffing, and healing. Do all of these things for larger amounts, longer durations, and take more damage while doing it. THEN STILL do more damage.

I really want someone who TRULY believes the GUARDIAN is better at these things to sit be down and show me I am wrong. I absolutely LOVE the GUARDIAN.

ArchonWing.9480:

Christos de Soufre.3802:

Guardians are bad and need buffs and by the Six Anet pls make us heal for more and do more damage. And more mobility and CC too please, like cripples. Thx.

Guardians are terrible. It takes 5 people to remove me from a circle. It should take 50. I hope all the scrubs get this message and will abandon this class asap and stop making us look bad.

;)

Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE Guardians, but I am finding out that Warriors can do all the same things, just better. As far as all of my play has gone anyway. Maybe its just me? Maybe the Warrior and I just sync better.

P.S. GREAT Quote BTW.

I have never been very active on the forums, in any game, but since I love GW2 so much I want to be better at the game.

However, I am unhappy.

I fell in love with the Guardian.
I thought the idea of a tanky character that can do some buffing, some healing, and some protection.

So I set up my traits for it.
Taking Healing power, toughness, boon duration, and vitality in my trait lines.

I was doing alright.

Then my friend decided to give somthing similar a try on his warrior.

Behold, the warrior can indeed effectivly do the same thing.
Without being entirly speced for it.

He had is warrior build for mostly damage, with a few points in toughness and vitality.

He just changed som traits to make his banners heal.
Then is able to heal and buff just as well as I am, however he has a absorbatant amount of HP.

So we tested this.

We have mirrored stats on gear and traits.

With JUST his banners he was matching the healing of every skill that I could pop AND he didnt have to do a thing, just let the banners do their thing.

He can sheild block for longer, stun, and do more damage, as well as buff for long periods of time and all he has to do is focus on fighting.

Now say he switches to shouts heal, the amount they heal is the same a the Guardian Resolve use, BUT he has multiple shouts and some only have a 25 second CD.

As much as I love the idea behind the guardian, the warrior does everything the same, if not better, plus has access to ranged weapons, and just MORE HP. We had the same items and build but he had 4000 more HP.

Needless to say, I now have a warrior until the guardian gets some love.

~I just love Yogurt

I have never been very active on the forums, in any game, but since I love GW2 so much I want to be better at the game.

However, I am unhappy.

I fell in love with the Guardian.
I thought the idea of a tanky character that can do some buffing, some healing, and some protection.

So I set up my traits for it.
Taking Healing power, toughness, boon duration, and vitality in my trait lines.

I was doing alright.

Then my friend decided to give somthing similar a try on his warrior.

Behold, the warrior can indeed effectivly do the same thing.
Without being entirly speced for it.

He had is warrior build for mostly damage, with a few points in toughness and vitality.

He just changed som traits to make his banners heal.
Then is able to heal and buff just as well as I am, however he has a absorbatant amount of HP.

So we tested this.

We have mirrored stats on gear and traits.

With JUST his banners he was matching the healing of every skill that I could pop AND he didnt have to do a thing, just let the banners do their thing.

He can sheild block for longer, stun, and do more damage, as well as buff for long periods of time and all he has to do is focus on fighting.

Now say he switches to shouts heal, the amount they heal is the same a the Guardian Resolve use, BUT he has multiple shouts and some only have a 25 second CD.

As much as I love the idea behind the guardian, the warrior does everything the same, if not better, plus has access to ranged weapons, and just MORE HP. We had the same items and build but he had 4000 more HP.

Needless to say, I now have a warrior until the guardian gets some love.

You cannot contain THIS!
~Famous Last Words