Guild Wars 2

EremiteAngel.9765:

lets play fair?
we finally got back into T1…

This is the natural thing that happens when a server first moves into a tier. People just want to play with the shiny toy that is bringing something new to the matchup. DB will remain salty and push us, which is good because they provide us with a decent k/d ratio. BG wants us in the tier with them because TC is really the only server right now who can provide them with any kind of challenge. BG will slowly wean the PPT pressure off us and focus more on the fights over the next couple of weeks. Settle down and enjoy the show. It was much, much worse when YB moved to T1.

I believe it will be the 17th. That is when other updates are going in.

DeWolfe.2174:

Cephas.4293:

JQ has been artificially propped up by the T1 wall for quite some time. Now that the wall has been broken JQ is simply falling into its natural place.

See, this is the kind of poorly done [ONS] pvkitten that I described in my previous post. Any World that loses 8 or so Guilds after the leak, then gets locked a week later by the Dev’s, is going to have performance issues. As I said in my reply to the OP, all we can do is kick back and enjoy the next 3 months.

btw… [ONS] you and YB still couldn’t win a week until after HoT dropped. Our moral on JQ and most of WvW never recovered after it. Guild’s disbanded, players left the game, and players left the mode. Now players are transferring about just to try and find some resemblance of WvW past. You yourselves are transferring about and trying to find any fun left in the game too. So don’t throw stones at anyone else for having a hard time finding fun in a post HoT world (vs world) (vs world).

My post isn’t an indictment of JQ. It blames a failed glicko system that keeps servers where they shouldn’t be for too long of a time period. JQ’s fall was a result of a cascade of problems and happenings that definitely didn’t help JQ. Whether it be server politics or discontent with the game, it doesn’t really matter. Servers need to be able to rise and fall and that was too much of a challenge in the past. A system that promoted servers to rotate more will help servers in the long run and naturally spread out the population.

JQ has been artificially propped up by the T1 wall for quite some time. Now that the wall has been broken JQ is simply falling into its natural place.

Why did we move?

To create some chaos, create change, enjoy different fights, to challenge ourselves, to have a mission or goal or something to work towards. We moved for the better opportunities to recruit. We moved because we didn’t know what to expect with the upcoming WvW changes and so we wanted the alliance to be together due to the uncertainty. There are lots of reasons we moved and all of them made us think that it was far better to move than to sit around getting more and more bored with the game.

And now we aren’t bored, what we did worked better than expected. We have a force actively pushing against us and the fighting is amazing. We are having more fun in the game than we have in a long long time.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Yes.

That said, we’ll be increasing the cooldowns on all tactics by 5-10 minutes. Also, once the scribing costs come down, as part of the april build, we can start looking at rebalancing their actual effects as well.

Does Arenanet not realize that is is actually the primary problem people have? The issue that so many people are having is that it is nearly impossible to break into defended keeps in the first place. This means people bunkering inside keeps and no fights. Don’t look at the top layer of complaints. Look at what caused people to actually despise the maps in the first place: tactivators, banners, ridiculous lords, doors immune to player damage, stronger walls…..all while under siege fire……this is the actual stuff that is frustrating the WvW community so much. Before bunkering and stalemates weren’t nearly as big a deal because it was easier to break into keeps and force engagements.

Alpine would turn into people bunkering in keeps, and we’d have the same problem as desert borderlands even if these abilities are just toned down. Please really consider removing some of the said mechanics instead of toning them down.

Let me reiterate, the frustration comes from the ability of players to bunker and the offensive force having very little chance of breaking that bunker. It is the stalemate factor that is frustrating, that no matter how good your guild is you’re not going to get through – supply run after supply run – still very little chance to get to inner.

Otokomae.9356:

Pensadora.9478:

Cephas.4293:

The night before we had 1 or 2 even fights against XvX and/or GoF. Then they vultroned and brought MAS into the mix. So it was XvX, GoF, and MAS against 25 of us. 20 OnS+ 5 Pugs, and that has been typical.

Yea, that moment your 25 thought they had the 15 of us – (12 MAS +3 pugs) pinned at the N air shrine, and then… surprise! Here comes GoF! We thought it a real shame that you missed out on that ‘even’ fight, too. But, we got over it.

Dat MAS Zerg…

MAS, fight guild.

X T D.6458:

I am not really understanding your complaint, because you basically had a problem with a couple guilds coordinating an attack on your force, but then bragged when your side did the same thing. I don’t really see the issue tbh, we get hit sometimes by enemy blobs of 3-4 guilds, we adjust strategy.

The problem is that no BG guilds seek solo fights, and they actively seek to blob guilds down instead of seeking even engagements. That is problematic and not “fight” culture.

X T D.6458:

Cephas.4293:

X T D.6458:

Cephas.4293:

Pensadora.9478:

Cephas.4293:

The night before we had 1 or 2 even fights against XvX and/or GoF. Then they vultroned and brought MAS into the mix. So it was XvX, GoF, and MAS against 25 of us. 20 OnS+ 5 Pugs, and that has been typical.

Yea, that moment your 25 thought they had the 15 of us – (12 MAS +3 pugs) pinned at the N air shrine, and then… surprise! Here comes GoF! We thought it a real shame that you missed out on that ‘even’ fight, too. But, we got over it.

I think you’re just salty that once BOO came to the map and your vultron only outnumbered us by 15, you wiped the rest of the night?

That says more about your guild not being able to hold their own tbh. Your in a guild that runs up to 40 ppl chest thumping against a guild that runs havok..um yea…I’ll bet your so proud?

Also, wtf is a vultron

Up to 40? Maybe if we pin up public on reset and are the only tag on that map. I’m not chest thumping. All I did was state earlier that MAS, XvX, and GoF vultroned against 25 of us all night. There was no exaggeration there. It is typical. It is BG.

Now I like fighting OnS, I actually do, but rarely do I ever see them running small or w/o another guild, it used to be GS, now its usually LuN and Boo. And I have no problem with that, I mean why should I, its just normal strategy, and more fights for us. I really dont see why its an issue, if guilds team up to coordinate attacks against your forces. OnS has a reputation like I said of running large and with other guilds, which again is perfectly fine, no problems here whatsoever, no complaints, but knowing this its normal for 2 guilds to coordinate attacks when seeing you, because there will be the assumption that there is another enemy guild in the area. Its simply adjusting to enemy tactics.

What does vultron mean?

Voltron means to team up with other guilds in order to fight another smaller force. It is a reference to an anime show where multiple smaller robots would come together to form one huge one. We don’t like to do it unless we are facing fairly even numbers. We usually start the night by ourselves, and we run 15-25. However, we are more often than not blobbed down by a combined force of BG. It is then that we have to call in another force to have any kind of chance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21t6QvYhG68&feature=youtu.be

That 1st clip is the voltron BG blob that chased us all over the map and would not engage us one at a time or unless they could AJ us.

X T D.6458:

Cephas.4293:

Pensadora.9478:

Cephas.4293:

The night before we had 1 or 2 even fights against XvX and/or GoF. Then they vultroned and brought MAS into the mix. So it was XvX, GoF, and MAS against 25 of us. 20 OnS+ 5 Pugs, and that has been typical.

Yea, that moment your 25 thought they had the 15 of us – (12 MAS +3 pugs) pinned at the N air shrine, and then… surprise! Here comes GoF! We thought it a real shame that you missed out on that ‘even’ fight, too. But, we got over it.

I think you’re just salty that once BOO came to the map and your vultron only outnumbered us by 15, you wiped the rest of the night?

That says more about your guild not being able to hold their own tbh. Your in a guild that runs up to 40 ppl chest thumping against a guild that runs havok..um yea…I’ll bet your so proud?

Also, wtf is a vultron

Up to 40? Maybe if we pin up public on reset and are the only tag on that map. I’m not chest thumping. All I did was state earlier that MAS, XvX, and GoF vultroned against 25 of us all night. There was no exaggeration there. It is typical. It is BG.

Pensadora.9478:

Cephas.4293:

The night before we had 1 or 2 even fights against XvX and/or GoF. Then they vultroned and brought MAS into the mix. So it was XvX, GoF, and MAS against 25 of us. 20 OnS+ 5 Pugs, and that has been typical.

Yea, that moment your 25 thought they had the 15 of us – (12 MAS +3 pugs) pinned at the N air shrine, and then… surprise! Here comes GoF! We thought it a real shame that you missed out on that ‘even’ fight, too. But, we got over it.

I think you’re just salty that once BOO came to the map and your vultron only outnumbered us by 15, you wiped the rest of the night?

Wirriam.1859:

I don’t think there’s a single group on bg I would consider “fight” oriented, most of them are “winning” oriented, and when I say winning I mean it in the most Charlie Sheen way imaginable.

WHOA just reformed so hopefully this will change. We’ve only experienced BG vultrons who refuse to engage us on an even playing field time and time again. But last night we (OnS, BOO, and DOC) faced off against WHOA+KnT for a total of 17 fights. It was constant action because WHOA didn’t care if there were times they were outnumbered and lost or whatever, they just kept fighting. Haven’t seen that in a while in any BG guilds.

The night before we had 1 or 2 even fights against XvX and/or GoF. Then they vultroned and brought MAS into the mix. So it was XvX, GoF, and MAS against 25 of us. 20 OnS+ 5 Pugs, and that has been typical.

Fixing WvW: The Melee Train is a Part of the Answer

I’m going to approach the issue of battle philosophy, balance, and what makes WvW combat enjoyable and epic.

Looking back at all my past experiences and the fights I’ve enjoyed most in WvW, it’s all about those moments where the melee train is rolling through the enemy forces in an epic fashion. I’ve pretty much only ever run Necromancer/Reaper in WvW, and it’s those times where as a smaller organized force we’ve been able to train through the larger more disorganized force and at least have some kind of chance to overcome the odds stacked against us; those are the moments that I feel the adrenaline burst and endorphin release. It’s kind of like sex. The melee train based playstyle also makes even fights fun and exciting with constant movement, repositioning and less pirate shipping around one another and less waiting for cooldowns.

The melee train is sadly becoming a thing of the past, but the solution in my opinion, is to re-imagine battle philosophy by recreating ranged classes to be able to run closer to the melee (more hybrid builds) and to lower the amount of CC so groups can have some opportunity to train through one another. The pirate shipping; standing around and watching your enemy until they flinch or get bored or have cooldowns up is not working.

Fights like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA6lukCWKyE are what we need again.

Ways that this might happen are:

• Spread out necessary frontline skills that only guards possess now to one or two ranged classes like elementalists/tempests. Currently two guardians is the bare minimum for a frontline group. We need more flexibility in this.

• Give each ranged class options that enable them to more easily run frontline or hybrid. The Reaper is a great example of a step in the right direction.

• Reduce the strength of crowd control (and conditions?).

• Empower stability.

On another note, lower the effectiveness of the cancer keep upgrades like chill fields and emergency waypoints and reduce the overall power of siege which is notorious now for ending the days of the good old fashion keep fights.

P.S. – For balance purposes this may mean also giving melee classes some hybrid/ranged options. We see this playing out well with Dragon Hunters and Revenants currently, which are both considered powerful classes.

Botan Saro Pu.1085:

Cephas.4293:

Cogbyrn is right about finding ways to utilize the strengths of the class. Spike / burst damage is the key to generating downs. A glassy Reaper hybrid appears to be very good at this. Too many people tend to focus on overall / sustained damage. Not to mention those might stacks / vulnerability / chills and what it does for our marks/well bombs, and it is so amazingly fun to play.

Here is a video of some of my first hours as a Reaper: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M1UlvZRITo

#adapt

*dedicated to FIERCE for the salt

Cephas, thanks for the video, looks like fun and a lot like current Necro plus RS…? I do notice you pushing out front of tag a lot, then falling back, which reminds me of the old chilling darkness gameplay. Mind posting a link to your build?

A couple quick questions: Why do you slot Spectral Wall? I don’t see that much in wvw builds, just curious. Don’t you miss not having a stun break? Also, I see you using Plague for elite — I used that in the chilling darkness days, do you spec into chill on blind? Or use this more defensively?

Hey,

After much testing we determined that a frontline Reaper wasn’t viable for our guild. However, we did determine that a kind of D/D Ele style of play could be effective burst damage and generate many downs. The key for my build is chill pressure and high damage that rivals / exceeds backline Necros with our ability to stack might. Otherwise, we retain wells and other backline abilities. Spectral Wall, when traited, chills and when dropped on a pushing melee train strips stab like no other. It also messes up enemy regroups. In T1 it appears JQ and BG are not adapting well to the new meta so the YB alliance guilds (Mad Court Alliance) in working together are currently able to push them hard unless we are significantly outnumbered. That is why you don’t see me using Spectral Wall much even though it is slotted. Our marks bombs are enough to halt their pushes. I was using Plague for the pressure it can apply to frontline and for the extra survivability. Necros lack an invuln that other melee classes possess. I am oftentimes, depending on the situation, using one of the shouts and using the new elite.

My aggressive play is also a product of the ease of the fights. Against better guilds I would have been far less aggressive. This is also testing phase for our new builds so I was trying to push the limits to show full capability.

Cogbyrn is right about finding ways to utilize the strengths of the class. Spike / burst damage is the key to generating downs. A glassy Reaper hybrid appears to be very good at this. Too many people tend to focus on overall / sustained damage. Not to mention those might stacks / vulnerability / chills and what it does for our marks/well bombs, and it is so amazingly fun to play.

Here is a video of some of my first hours as a Reaper: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M1UlvZRITo

#adapt

*dedicated to FIERCE for the salt

Haha oops Just realized that!

CosmicCindy.6014:

Remix.2086:

I’d consider T3, but keep in mind TONS of t2 people are going T3. SoS isn’t Full because of that, FA will probably open up too.

I would stay away from Yak’s, and t2 in general. I mean if you like PvD’ing then go for Yak’s because all they do is ktrain. They have 30+ blob on at least 1 map at all times of the day

T3 sounds good, but will soon turn into t2 gvg home lol.

Which T3 server do you recommend me to join? I was thinking Maguuma, but I’m not sure.

The T2 guilds that transferred to T3 did so in an organized way in order to try and keep them balanced. So you will probably have a similar experience on any of the T3 servers.

Barab.9016:

Been on Jade Quarry since before release. Not once did I care what servers or guilds we were paired with. A fight is a fight regardless of what server, guild, or red name tag paired up on the other side.

And JQ has been at the top for nearly the entire length of game. Being at the top means the competition moves towards you and so you don’t have to care so much and being at the top tier in this game means stacking time zones for ppt coverage primarily. This is another issue Anet has said they want to address.

Xenesis.6389:

Cephas.4293:

I’m also not sure that the concentration of guilds and the makeup of T1 was our doing. Basically, the T1 servers were always competing with one another for coverage and an advantage by recruiting guilds. This naturally concentrated like minded people to the top and created a very strong core of 3’servers that were beyond the lower tiers. Seems like another result of the matchmaking system to me.

Sure, and there isn’t a thing called BG push weeks, or TW sending alt accounts to JQ to help prop it up, or OnsL sending alts to TC. Yeah it’s all the match making system with 3 equally strong servers.

PPT harder maybe Anet will notice how broken T2 is and do something at some point. I’m gonna get a good laugh if you guys finally make it into T1 right before the expansion hits, and they mix I mean mess things up with server/ratings shuffling right after.

All of those things are a natural part of competition and protecting your share of the tier since falling out of tier can be so devastating. If falling out of tier didn’t mean certain death but tier rotation was normal you wouldn’t have had those problems. Also the moves of TW and OnS were more a result of the stale matchups caused by over stacked time zones and locked tiers; and locked tiers were cause by stacking your server for fear of falling out of tier. See how it’s a circle of factors that contributed to each other and spiraled out of control to produce what you see?

If Anet acts just as we accomplish our goal we would be happy because our main goal has always been to see rotations and rally awareness about the broken system.

Sungtaro.6493:

You are still over 100 points away currently. Unless if you get a fantastic roll soon, as in the next couple of weeks, the amount of glicko needed increases.

As that happens, the frequency and quality of fights decrease dramatically. You will be eventually chasing around groups half or less your size that are backcaping you stuff. You will get to the point where you will get maybe one fight in a raid.

Can you keep your players interested then? Do you even have buy in from the true YB players?

Yes, it was YB guilds and players who helped to fund our move over. And yes, most of our players understand the length of the process

yanniell.1236:

Anyone with half a brain would have known this was gonna happen. YB won’t reach T1, and even if it was possible, what good people think would have come from that? Rotation just for the sake of rotation isn’t good per se. YB would be roflstomp in T1, the T1 server in T2 that week would roflstomp the T2 servers. Yeah, sounds awesome…

All they’ve achieved with this nonsense transfers was boring one sided matchups. And that was obvious from the beginning to anyone who gave it any thought at all.

Same people doing the same mistakes. Over and over again…

This is a more short sighted view than what we had in making the decision. In the long term rotations are good because they spread out the talent. People naturally want good competition and so people will move to face better guilds and more skilled opponents as they improve. If rotations were more normalized it would be normal for talent to disperse rather than simply concentrate at the top. I will reiterate, this is a very long-term perspective and is not focused as you are on what is happening locally in T2 week to week.

We also suspected this could take a while (upwards of 3 months). We suspected we could get stuck in T2 (and we still don’t think this is at all the most likely scenario because we are gaining significant glicko and increases % chance to move this week as well. We are only in our third week. The longer it does draw out though the more damage is done to SOS and FA. This is what Anet should be striving to change (the breaking of servers from changing tiers or from having a server pushing to another tier). It would be healthy if it wasn’t so important what tier you were in.

We are not so concerned with the current matchup being uneven because the variance in fights will come when the rotation begins. and that will make this long process worth it in the end especially if Anet supports a system with more rotations with the changes they make (which their statements show they think is a problem).

Xenesis.6389:

PPT harder YB.

You guys made T1 what it is today, now it seems like they’re still using your lessons and making sure you don’t get in reach of them for as long as possible.

You’ve come to T2 and finished it off, T2 was already in a state of slow destruction, but you’ve put in the final nail, all the gvg guilds moved to T3 a week after you transferred. I still find it funny that DK has been on vacation all this time, the time you need him the most for a heavy ppt push and he’s not around.

Thankfully anet put in the population changes, and in the process immobilized your main accounts to T2. Enjoy your next 3 months of 350+ PPT.

We will continue to enjoy our Mad Court and growing together as we settle in for the long haul. Either way we are enjoying ourselves immensely as FA can still put together one hell of a blob with [VP] and provide insane keep defenses that take hours to break. We have also had lots of great fights this week.

I agree that the population changes can be helpful but they are just a bandaid to cover existing wounds.

I’m also not sure that the concentration of guilds and the makeup of T1 was our doing. Basically, the T1 servers were always competing with one another for coverage and an advantage by recruiting guilds. This naturally concentrated like minded people to the top and created a very strong core of 3’servers that were beyond the lower tiers. Seems like another result of the matchmaking system to me.

Sungtaro.6493:

Your rotation is meaningless even if you succeed. Look at what happened when DB broke the wall to T2. All that happened is the rotation of incredibly bad matchups for the server that rolled low and the true T3 servers.

What made you think it would be different this time? I fail to see how anyone with a credible amount of competence could not done the math and not predict the effects.

Sorry, SOS and FA were in the position of considering a push to T1. The calculations were done before. The math was always out there. The consequences are obvious if any critical thinking was done at all.

Factored into the equation was the goal to make it glaringly obvious that change was needed in WvW and a big shakeup is a way to do that. Anet has responded positively to this as evidenced by recent action and statements that have occurred near to the time of the events on YB. I just hope there will continue to be quick action to build healthier match systems.

They need to increase the matchup variance quickly. YB isn’t even pushing that hard, have several main commanders on break like DK and Dods, and are destroying two servers. Yet the rate at which YBs chance to roll tier 1 is low, and it will be increasingly hard to make further progress the weaker in glicko SOS and FA are. It will be increasingly harmful to the other two T2 servers the longer this process draws out. This is a glaring example of the problem of the matchup system.

As we studied the numbers last night YB actually loses glicko if we drop below 350ppt. We pushed as high as 630 Sunday and 560 yesterday. Our goal is a healthy system where servers can rotate like EU, and it is sad that what we are seeing is the only way to get there. If the chance to roll a different tier was higher the talent of servers would naturally spread out as people sought more fights with others equal to their skill level instead of all of it being concentrated in one area.