Guild Wars 2

The whole thing is a real shame.

There must be a lack of creativity in the development team to let this game mode, which was/is popular fall by the wayside to cater to the PvE crowd.

The PvE players have had their day. Events on a monthly basis, new dungeons and rewards.

Let’s recount what’s happened since launch for WvW :

1. Removed orbs due to exploiters and slippery slope mechanics.

That’s it. We have less of a game in WvW than we did during launch. Nothing has been added. Nothing.

ArenaNet, I supported this game mode with my time, effort (and going as far as to create a fansite devoted to it), and in return myself and my fellow WvW players have received… nothing.

No development, no engine fixes (culling), no new rewards or progression.

I am sorely disappointed that you’ve neglected the very game type that could have been something so much more grand and epic with just a little love.

You’ve let it slip through your fingers.

Crater.1625:

Crackbone.5710:

Or, you are in fact in the minority, and they have the data to back it up.

Or they don’t have the data to back it up, because up until they proposed this change, there was no reason for the majority of players to voice their support for static gear power.

This thread is probably going to end up being bigger (in terms of post volume) than the entire Halloween event forum. If they’d had any idea this would be the reaction, they probably would have prepared something a little more robust to try to manage the dissatisfaction.

Or just carried on with their plans, for the future of the game.

Some percentage of the audience will quit this game. Those who want gear progression and a more traditional MMORPG model, or those who want the original Guild Wars in a GW2 skin.

I’m betting that those wanting the original Guild Wars are in the minority based on the fact that they’ve introduced Ascended Gear at all.

Do you honestly think that internal projections and retention numbers aren’t at the heart of this addition? That they haven’t studied this in depth?

Shadow Blade.1324:

Crackbone.5710:

Or, you are in fact in the minority, and they have the data to back it up.

you are making assumptions about assumptions here, no one has data other than Anet and if there has beena drop in concurrency
1 its AAA season there are other games people want to play as well as this
2 there is always a falloff as tourists head back to the mmo they came from, correlation is not causation

anyway happy page 100 people to commemorate this lets think of alternatives to vertical progression and the requirement for agony resist gear

i want a repeat of the original guild wars challenge missions, let bosses give bonus time on kill and you get to see how far into the fractals you can get before timer expires, keep leaderboards and reward daily/weekly/monthly top with some bonus

I’m making a conclusion based on the fact that the new item tier is being released this Friday.

As for your second suggestion, that sounds like fun, but that is something I’d expect to find in a lobby type game, or the original Guild Wars.

Guild Wars 2 is not Guild Wars. It’s been positioned as a full fledged MMORPG with a few enhancements (no quest hubs, dynamic events, etc).

While I truly do understand why many here expected otherwise, after roughly 3 months of play, it was pretty evident to me that something had to give.

Farming Plinx ad infinitum isn’t what I would call fun , and based on “Player Feedback” I imagine that ANet came to the same conclusion.

In a full fledged MMORPG, players expect progression other than skins. I understand that wasn’t the original Guild Wars formula, nor was it what many GW players expected. However, GW2 is what it is.

Lastly, as I’ve said previously, internally there must have been a reason for this change. Likely their internal projections affirmed that they will not be successful long term with ONLY cosmetic carrots.

Tyr.1965:

Crackbone.5710:

However, I have to add if these vocal players in this thread that are upset about the changes are the only ones who are pissed off about this change, ANet has succeeded.

What I see are the same handful of posters continuing to rage about something that’s done and in the books as of Friday.

If youre posting on the forums at all, you are already part of a minority regardless of your opinion on this change. Most players do not post on the forums at all. So we have two minority camps here with extremely opposing opinions of this change. Which camp is bigger? The one that hates the gear treadmill. Why is ANet listening to the smaller camp? Is it just because they were the only ones kittening all this time? The rest of us didnt have anything to kitten about. Now we do and we’re coming out in droves.

Or, you are in fact in the minority, and they have the data to back it up.

However, I have to add if these vocal players in this thread that are upset about the changes are the only ones who are pissed off about this change, ANet has succeeded.

What I see are the same handful of posters continuing to rage about something that’s done and in the books as of Friday.

Korrigan.4837:

Crackbone.5710:

Korrigan.4837:

Crackbone.5710:

Korrigan.4837:

Crackbone.5710:

noskill.6294:

Guys:

Gw1——-> CORPG
Gw2——-> MMORPG

what is appening atm is absolutely normal.

Bingo.

Only people with little MMORPG experience, who only knew EQ/WoW clones, can think a gear grind is the only way to make a MMORPG “end game”. Any veteran who played those games since UO or before know WoW only took the easy route, and that there are many more ways to make a good MMORPG.

And this isn’t a sandbox.

If this were a sandbox, you’d have a valid argument, alas, it’s not. It’s not for that type market.

I’d suggest you go give Darkfall : Unholy Wars a try later this month if that’s what you are looking for.

AC1 wasn’t a sandbox yet didn’t have a gear grind either. Your argument doesn’t hold any water, except showing how limited your vision about what a MMORPG can be is.
Don’t limit what is possible to the limits of your own imagination.

I’m not the game designer.

This game has clearly been produced for the WoW era.

Unfortunately, imagination doesn’t pay the bills. If it did, we’d not be having this discussion in the first place, because their horizontal gear model would be working, and thriving.

Obviously, it’s not.

Clearly? Well, according to any promise made before release, along with the manifesto, the game was produced as a kick in the hornet’s nest compared to the stagnating market of (failing) WoW clones.

And about the second part of your post, you are assuming a lot. The game is a smashing success, with huge sales, and nowhere near your “obviously it’s not” assumption.

If this gear inflation really makes it into the game, I’ll be the one laughing at the likes of you, when the game merges servers and reduces content patches to focus on cash shop sales, because all those who believed in the manifesto have left the game.

Mark my words. Keep a link to my post if you want.

You keep assuming that I want a gear treadmill.

I’m not arguing for the treadmill. I’m trying to get to the root of the cause. I’ve stated plainly that I don’t think it’s the best answer, but it is the quickest one.

Don’t put words into my mouth. Clearly something wasn’t working for them under the current endgame model and a change had to be made.

I applaud them for doing something about that now, rather than later.

Korrigan.4837:

Crackbone.5710:

Korrigan.4837:

Crackbone.5710:

noskill.6294:

Guys:

Gw1——-> CORPG
Gw2——-> MMORPG

what is appening atm is absolutely normal.

Bingo.

Only people with little MMORPG experience, who only knew EQ/WoW clones, can think a gear grind is the only way to make a MMORPG “end game”. Any veteran who played those games since UO or before know WoW only took the easy route, and that there are many more ways to make a good MMORPG.

And this isn’t a sandbox.

If this were a sandbox, you’d have a valid argument, alas, it’s not. It’s not for that type market.

I’d suggest you go give Darkfall : Unholy Wars a try later this month if that’s what you are looking for.

AC1 wasn’t a sandbox yet didn’t have a gear grind either. Your argument doesn’t hold any water, except showing how limited your vision about what a MMORPG can be is.
Don’t limit what is possible to the limits of your own imagination.

I’m not the game designer.

This game has clearly been produced for the WoW era.

Unfortunately, imagination doesn’t pay the bills. If it did, we’d not be having this discussion in the first place, because their horizontal gear model would be working, and thriving.

Obviously, it’s not.

Korrigan.4837:

Nimraphel.7819:

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

jboynton asks: “How does GW2 maintain its position as a revenue driver without that income in future quarters?”

How does aborting the design manifesto – which, arguably, drove those sales in the first place – help raise revenue from a game that has no subscription? Are hardcore players the top consumers of cash shop items? I doubt it. Are hardcore gear-grinders going to produce the same kind of B2P expansion sales (when one comes out) as launch? If ANET alienates everyone who bought GW2 because of that manifesto, and because of the non-grind “whole-world” end game philosophy, what are those expansion sales going to be?

It seems to me we’re witnessing a potential SWG moment here; ANET can alienate everyone who came here specifically because of what GW2 was billed as, promised to be, and for three months now has delivered by changing the core nature of the game. And for what? Players that endlessly run from game to game seeking a means to satiate a never-ending quest for avatar progression/power?

This post cannot be stated enough. This is the crux of the matter.

Wintyre, my new friend, you nailed it. Couldn’t have said it better.

And you don’t think they’ve gone over this internally ad nauseum? You aren’t stating anything they haven’t discussed, of that I am sure.

Every argument and counter argument for the introduction of this new tier of gear has likely been gone over with a fine tooth comb.

Korrigan.4837:

Crackbone.5710:

noskill.6294:

Guys:

Gw1——-> CORPG
Gw2——-> MMORPG

what is appening atm is absolutely normal.

Bingo.

Only people with little MMORPG experience, who only knew EQ/WoW clones, can think a gear grind is the only way to make a MMORPG “end game”. Any veteran who played those games since UO or before know WoW only took the easy route, and that there are many more ways to make a good MMORPG.

And this isn’t a sandbox.

If this were a sandbox, you’d have a valid argument, alas, it’s not. It’s not for that type market.

I’d suggest you go give Darkfall : Unholy Wars a try later this month if that’s what you are looking for.

noskill.6294:

Guys:

Gw1——-> CORPG
Gw2——-> MMORPG

what is appening atm is absolutely normal.

Bingo.

I think this entire thread has run its course.

For the record, I’ve never said this is the right move.

It’s obvious they have to do something, or something isn’t working. Gear is the quick fix, and that’s what they’ve done.

No amount of forum rage is going to change that its coming on Friday.

Account.9832:

Crackbone.5710:

It’s the almighty Dollar, Euro, etc.

They won’t be getting enough over the long term with only horizontal progression. It’s crystal clear.

Wake up folks. It’s a business. Business or lack-thereof likely dictated this change.

Well, they just lost a steady 30 euros a month from me for the foreseeable future. And if this becomes the norm (i.e., if there are more gear stat increases after this one), I’ll probably sell my copy of GW2 (which I am legally allowed to do under EU law).

Anyway, your post makes no sense. Increasing gear stats doesn’t increase their profits in any way (unless they started selling that improved gear for real money at the gem store – but even they aren’t that suicidal).

Sure it does.

More people that play, the more cash you pull from the shop. If you don’t think they have internal numbers about how many players it takes to receive X amount of revenue from the cash shop, then I have a bridge to sell you.

Retention and character investment encourages folks to spend money. If you aren’t engaged, you won’t spend money.

It’s pretty simple.

jboynton.7894:

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

jboynton asks: “How does GW2 maintain its position as a revenue driver without that income in future quarters?”

How does aborting the design manifesto – which, arguably, drove those sales in the first place – help raise revenue from a game that has no subscription? Are hardcore players the top consumers of cash shop items? I doubt it. Are hardcore gear-grinders going to produce the same kind of B2P expansion sales (when one comes out) as launch? If ANET alienates everyone who bought GW2 because of that manifesto, and because of the non-grind “whole-world” end game philosophy, what are those expansion sales going to be?

It seems to me we’re witnessing a potential SWG moment here; ANET can alienate everyone who came here specifically because of what GW2 was billed as, promised to be, and for three months now has delivered by changing the core nature of the game. And for what? Players that endlessly run from game to game seeking a means to satiate a never-ending quest for avatar progression/power?

You quoted the wrong person. I posted that the game is financially doing fine and am against vertical gear progression.

I hope you are right.

Every sensibility and every experience I’ve had to date tells me that something clearly isn’t right in their model. It’s not having the desired effect.

I’d love to be wrong on this, and that they’ll read this rage thread and decide, you know what, we’re going to kittencan this whole vertical gear progression and go another route.

I don’t think it’s that simple. Again, you don’t do this, something so very against the core of your marketing and endgame model if everything is just fine.

Mandrax.7342:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

showatt.9413:

Mandrax.7342:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

That carrot doesn’t need to be vertical progression. They have taken the easy, and in fact, cheap option.

Which is logical for a company that’s out to make money to do especially when their game is free to play and its going downhill.

Face it, if it wasn’t going down hill, if no one ever got bored grinding for skins and everything is the way it was back at launch, they probably would not have done this.

Accept the reality; Gw2 was dying slowly when they thought this up.

Sorry dude, but the game is doing fine. Couple the server populations with the NCSoft 3Q financial statement, and you are just plain wrong.

You keep spouting off that the game is doing fine.

I want a logical explanation as to why, if that were the case, that they would completely change their endgame design, less than 3 months out from the game launch.

Why upset the applecart if there’s no reason to do so?

Greed? Wouldn’t be the first time in business.

Perhaps it is greed.

However, it’s too “early” to pull a cash in maneuver.

I assert the game isn’t doing what they need it to do in the cash shop because of people not staying long enough to purchase anything.

They are hoping this change alleviates some of that. We’ll see if they are right.

showatt.9413:

Honestly, people.

Explain to me.

if the game is doing so fine.

If everyone was so okay with horizontal progression.

Why are they doing this?

Why would a company disobey the wish of the “SUPPOSED” majority, if their game is still supported by the majority?

Obviously the game is not doing fine, and they’re forced to change the way they have been operating.

For god sake have a little understanding, will you?

They won’t.

A few of the posters here, including myself, have explained a very logical reasoning behind these changes.

It’s the almighty Dollar, Euro, etc.

They won’t be getting enough over the long term with only horizontal progression. It’s crystal clear.

However, it’s easier to rage, call people liars, and generally just throw a hissy fit.

Wake up folks. It’s a business. Business or lack-thereof likely dictated this change.

[/quote]

gw2 has had one of the launches for day 1 sales in the genre ever, and quite comparable to non mmo games.

1 million + prelaunch sales.
2.3 million launch week sales.
who knows how many units have been sold since.

to put it this way, revneue from gw2 for first month unit and MT sales put it above BNS’s revenue in korea, which toppled aion easily over night.

from a financial stand point, gw2 has been very succesful, and seemingly devs were expecting number sto become lower, at least their posts during headstart and the first few weeks giving high concurrency rates for any number of things not working correctly indicates that.[/quote]

“First few weeks”

It’s 90 days out now. I don’t have to go back and point to every MMORPG that’s launched since 2005 that has had great launch day/month numbers that have failed due to lackluster customer retention do I?

MMORPGs depend on retention. That’s the key. Sure, they may have recovered some of their development costs, but what about ongoing costs? Something in the data was likely not matching up to their projections.

That’s why you have vertical progression sneaking in. [/quote]

I respect your posts and the fact that nothing we’ve said to each other has in anyway devolved into a flame war; but, please, please, please, stop citing that it’s based on financial pressures.

The data coming from NCSoft does not support this stance. NCSoft just released the 3Q financials on November 7th, stating: “B&S and GW2 have firmly positioned themselves as main revenue drivers for the company.”

That was a week ago.[/quote]

It’s marketing speak.

Don’t be naive.

Actions, as they say, having more meaning than words. This action speaks volumes.

You don’t turn your game design on a dime if everything is peachy.

jboynton.7894:

showatt.9413:

Mandrax.7342:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

That carrot doesn’t need to be vertical progression. They have taken the easy, and in fact, cheap option.

Which is logical for a company that’s out to make money to do especially when their game is free to play and its going downhill.

Face it, if it wasn’t going down hill, if no one ever got bored grinding for skins and everything is the way it was back at launch, they probably would not have done this.

Accept the reality; Gw2 was dying slowly when they thought this up.

Sorry dude, but the game is doing fine. Couple the server populations with the NCSoft 3Q financial statement, and you are just plain wrong.

You keep spouting off that the game is doing fine.

I want a logical explanation as to why, if that were the case, that they would completely change their endgame design, less than 3 months out from the game launch.

Why upset the applecart if there’s no reason to do so?

dirtyklingon.2918:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

HTXL.2598:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

And horizontal progression gets older faster than vertical.

Precisely.

Pulling all of the emotion out of this debate, you really have to consider the “Why.”

Why add vertical progression? I assert that it’s because their current model of horizontal progression isn’t retaining customers as they hoped it would. Furthermore, they likely had this entire model in their backpocket if the numbers stacked up this way.

It’s simple, Either you want Guild Wars 2 to be around as a healthy and profitable game for ANet and NCSoft for the next 3-5 years, or you want outdated mechanics from 2004.

They are, in my opinion as ANet has figured out, mutually exclusive, and it’s coming home to roost now as Ascended Gear.

Sorry man, but NCSoft’s financials just don’t mimic what you’re posting. Frankly put, the game had a massively successful launch and continues to be successful to this day. The problem is, that the suits who make the decisions get jealous of Blizzard. Period.

You cannot compete with WoW. This has been proven time and time again. The only thing that will kill WoW is Blizzard.

My interpretation of the numbers is far different than what the marketing speak out of NCSoft was.

Those numbers are far below what they should be for a title of this quality and size.

I want to be clear about something here :

I am not stating that a gear grind is the RIGHT way to do things. There are plenty of other ways you can add in character progression that’s more fun and more engaging.

However, the advantage to gear is this :

1. It’s quick. Same stats, marginally better, with a gated content slot. Easy to put it into the game, takes relatively little balance if the increases are largely the same across the board.

For whatever reason, and you can debate the why, I have my opinion, and you have yours, but, ANet clearly needed something “Quick.” If time wasn’t of the essence here, they would’ve gone a different route.

gw2 has had one of the launches for day 1 sales in the genre ever, and quite comparable to non mmo games.

1 million + prelaunch sales.
2.3 million launch week sales.
who knows how many units have been sold since.

to put it this way, revneue from gw2 for first month unit and MT sales put it above BNS’s revenue in korea, which toppled aion easily over night.

from a financial stand point, gw2 has been very succesful, and seemingly devs were expecting number sto become lower, at least their posts during headstart and the first few weeks giving high concurrency rates for any number of things not working correctly indicates that.

“First few weeks”

It’s 90 days out now. I don’t have to go back and point to every MMORPG that’s launched since 2005 that has had great launch day/month numbers that have failed due to lackluster customer retention do I?

MMORPGs depend on retention. That’s the key. Sure, they may have recovered some of their development costs, but what about ongoing costs? Something in the data was likely not matching up to their projections.

That’s why you have vertical progression sneaking in.

Tyr.1965:

Crackbone.5710:

Creslin.1758:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

HTXL.2598:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

And horizontal progression gets older faster than vertical.

Precisely.

Pulling all of the emotion out of this debate, you really have to consider the “Why.”

Why add vertical progression? I assert that it’s because their current model of horizontal progression isn’t retaining customers as they hoped it would. Furthermore, they likely had this entire model in their backpocket if the numbers stacked up this way.

It’s simple, Either you want Guild Wars 2 to be around as a healthy and profitable game for ANet and NCSoft for the next 3-5 years, or you want outdated mechanics from 2004.

They are, in my opinion as ANet has figured out, mutually exclusive, and it’s coming home to roost now as Ascended Gear.

Sorry man, but NCSoft’s financials just don’t mimic what you’re posting. Frankly put, the game had a massively successful launch and continues to be successful to this day. The problem is, that the suits who make the decisions get jealous of Blizzard. Period.

You cannot compete with WoW. This has been proven time and time again. The only thing that will kill WoW is Blizzard.

My interpretation of the numbers is far different than what the marketing speak out of NCSoft was.

Those numbers are far below what they should be for a title of this quality and size.

I want to be clear about something here :

I am not stating that a gear grind is the RIGHT way to do things. There are plenty of other ways you can add in character progression that’s more fun and more engaging.

However, the advantage to gear is this :

1. It’s quick. Same stats, marginally better, with a gated content slot. Easy to put it into the game, takes relatively little balance if the increases are largely the same across the board.

For whatever reason, and you can debate the why, I have my opinion, and you have yours, but, ANet clearly needed something “Quick.” If time wasn’t of the essence here, they would’ve gone a different route.

May I ask what you are basing your assertion that GW2 is essentially in a downward spiral on? Please do not say XFire.

This move.

Give me another logical reason that you would completely alter the core philosophy of all of your marketing and game design less than 3 months after the game launched.

It’s simple, the only reason you would do something like that is because the current model isn’t working. The blog post said as much. “We’ve listened to player feedback.”

This is a calculated move. ANet knows that this move is likely going to alienate a certain percentage of their players, however, it’s likely to open up the game to more players, who will stay longer and play more, and put more cash into the shop.

It’s not that difficult to decipher.

It’s not going to bring in as many people as it pushes away and the people that it does bring in won’t stay for long because that crowd has no loyalty.

Loyalty in a P2P game is largely meaningless unless that loyal base is paying for items.

As to your second statement, that’s an assumption. Rest assured, they have more data than we could fathom, and something in that data is pushing them to do this.

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

HTXL.2598:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

And horizontal progression gets older faster than vertical.

Precisely.

Pulling all of the emotion out of this debate, you really have to consider the “Why.”

Why add vertical progression? I assert that it’s because their current model of horizontal progression isn’t retaining customers as they hoped it would. Furthermore, they likely had this entire model in their backpocket if the numbers stacked up this way.

It’s simple, Either you want Guild Wars 2 to be around as a healthy and profitable game for ANet and NCSoft for the next 3-5 years, or you want outdated mechanics from 2004.

They are, in my opinion as ANet has figured out, mutually exclusive, and it’s coming home to roost now as Ascended Gear.

Sorry man, but NCSoft’s financials just don’t mimic what you’re posting. Frankly put, the game had a massively successful launch and continues to be successful to this day. The problem is, that the suits who make the decisions get jealous of Blizzard. Period.

You cannot compete with WoW. This has been proven time and time again. The only thing that will kill WoW is Blizzard.

My interpretation of the numbers is far different than what the marketing speak out of NCSoft was.

Those numbers are far below what they should be for a title of this quality and size.

I want to be clear about something here :

I am not stating that a gear grind is the RIGHT way to do things. There are plenty of other ways you can add in character progression that’s more fun and more engaging.

However, the advantage to gear is this :

1. It’s quick. Same stats, marginally better, with a gated content slot. Easy to put it into the game, takes relatively little balance if the increases are largely the same across the board.

For whatever reason, and you can debate the why, I have my opinion, and you have yours, but, ANet clearly needed something “Quick.” If time wasn’t of the essence here, they would’ve gone a different route.

I understand what you’re saying, however, Anet didn’t “need” to do anything quick. The game is truly doing fine on it’s current path. Attempting to lure other MMO players at the risk of alienating your current fanbase has proven to be a very poor idea over and over and over again.

That’s an assumption based on everything being fine.

If things were fine, and this game we’re “doing fine,” I assert this move wouldn’t have happened at all.

That’s my whole point.

This move is being done because something with their current model isn’t working.

Creslin.1758:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

HTXL.2598:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

And horizontal progression gets older faster than vertical.

Precisely.

Pulling all of the emotion out of this debate, you really have to consider the “Why.”

Why add vertical progression? I assert that it’s because their current model of horizontal progression isn’t retaining customers as they hoped it would. Furthermore, they likely had this entire model in their backpocket if the numbers stacked up this way.

It’s simple, Either you want Guild Wars 2 to be around as a healthy and profitable game for ANet and NCSoft for the next 3-5 years, or you want outdated mechanics from 2004.

They are, in my opinion as ANet has figured out, mutually exclusive, and it’s coming home to roost now as Ascended Gear.

Sorry man, but NCSoft’s financials just don’t mimic what you’re posting. Frankly put, the game had a massively successful launch and continues to be successful to this day. The problem is, that the suits who make the decisions get jealous of Blizzard. Period.

You cannot compete with WoW. This has been proven time and time again. The only thing that will kill WoW is Blizzard.

My interpretation of the numbers is far different than what the marketing speak out of NCSoft was.

Those numbers are far below what they should be for a title of this quality and size.

I want to be clear about something here :

I am not stating that a gear grind is the RIGHT way to do things. There are plenty of other ways you can add in character progression that’s more fun and more engaging.

However, the advantage to gear is this :

1. It’s quick. Same stats, marginally better, with a gated content slot. Easy to put it into the game, takes relatively little balance if the increases are largely the same across the board.

For whatever reason, and you can debate the why, I have my opinion, and you have yours, but, ANet clearly needed something “Quick.” If time wasn’t of the essence here, they would’ve gone a different route.

May I ask what you are basing your assertion that GW2 is essentially in a downward spiral on? Please do not say XFire.

This move.

Give me another logical reason that you would completely alter the core philosophy of all of your marketing and game design less than 3 months after the game launched.

It’s simple, the only reason you would do something like that is because the current model isn’t working. The blog post said as much. “We’ve listened to player feedback.”

This is a calculated move. ANet knows that this move is likely going to alienate a certain percentage of their players, however, it’s likely to open up the game to more players, who will stay longer and play more, and put more cash into the shop.

It’s not that difficult to decipher.

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

HTXL.2598:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

And horizontal progression gets older faster than vertical.

Precisely.

Pulling all of the emotion out of this debate, you really have to consider the “Why.”

Why add vertical progression? I assert that it’s because their current model of horizontal progression isn’t retaining customers as they hoped it would. Furthermore, they likely had this entire model in their backpocket if the numbers stacked up this way.

It’s simple, Either you want Guild Wars 2 to be around as a healthy and profitable game for ANet and NCSoft for the next 3-5 years, or you want outdated mechanics from 2004.

They are, in my opinion as ANet has figured out, mutually exclusive, and it’s coming home to roost now as Ascended Gear.

Sorry man, but NCSoft’s financials just don’t mimic what you’re posting. Frankly put, the game had a massively successful launch and continues to be successful to this day. The problem is, that the suits who make the decisions get jealous of Blizzard. Period.

You cannot compete with WoW. This has been proven time and time again. The only thing that will kill WoW is Blizzard.

My interpretation of the numbers is far different than what the marketing speak out of NCSoft was.

Those numbers are far below what they should be for a title of this quality and size.

I want to be clear about something here :

I am not stating that a gear grind is the RIGHT way to do things. There are plenty of other ways you can add in character progression that’s more fun and more engaging.

However, the advantage to gear is this :

1. It’s quick. Same stats, marginally better, with a gated content slot. Easy to put it into the game, takes relatively little balance if the increases are largely the same across the board.

For whatever reason, and you can debate the why, I have my opinion, and you have yours, but, ANet clearly needed something “Quick.” If time wasn’t of the essence here, they would’ve gone a different route.

Tyr.1965:

Crackbone.5710:

There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

Let the carrot be fun, instead of more stats. Why can’t they just release the new dungeon with the new mechanic but NOT make the gear any better than exotics? They are blatantly trying to appeal to the WoW crowd that only plays to constantly upgrade their gear.

I’m not disagreeing with you on this one.

There are other ways to do this that would be more fun and a better overall way to accomplish the same goal.

The problem is, time. Things like you are suggesting take time to put together, time to balance, time to create.

Gear is the simplest and quickest way to get it done.

HTXL.2598:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

And horizontal progression gets older faster than vertical.

Precisely.

Pulling all of the emotion out of this debate, you really have to consider the “Why.”

Why add vertical progression? I assert that it’s because their current model of horizontal progression isn’t retaining customers as they hoped it would. Furthermore, they likely had this entire model in their backpocket if the numbers stacked up this way.

It’s simple, Either you want Guild Wars 2 to be around as a healthy and profitable game for ANet and NCSoft for the next 3-5 years, or you want outdated mechanics from 2004.

They are, in my opinion as ANet has figured out, mutually exclusive, and it’s coming home to roost now as Ascended Gear.

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Either you get with the program, that progression is needed and it’s needed now, or you can kiss Guild Wars 2 completely goodbye.

This game needs a carrot that’s not Legendaries. Folks, if you think that this isn’t being done because they are having a retention problem, then you need to look again.

If ArenaNet doesn’t put something in there to keep people playing, and quickly, GW2 is toast. I love the game, but that’s just the truth.

Where are you getting this data from?

Experience.

You don’t change your basic and core philosophy midstream, on a dime, without some external force. If things are humming right along as expected, we wouldn’t be seeing this change now.

Typically it’s money that’s the driving force. They likely have internal data that suggests their retention isn’t where they want it and therefore are introducing this vertical progression mechanic as a way to keep people engaged. Furthermore, the infusion mechanic is a gate to keep folks from burning through the new content at the rate they have been.

So, you have no proof what-so-ever to back up your claim that this game is dying.

My experience is that people will also do things to increase their revenue, despite already making a profit. This is especially so in the MMO market when people see Blizzard’s subscription numbers and profit margin as a result of WoW; which is quite frankly and unrealistic goal to strive for.

Every game that attempted to mimic WoW has crashed and burned. Look at all the money and hype poored into SWtOR…which inevitably became known as the TORtanic. This MMO is doing fine, look at the server populations. Anet will continue to make a profit by catering to a different crowd.

This game is not dying and it does not need to change in an attempt to grab people who are already happy in a game that’s been out since 2004 and in which they are established.

This isn’t 2004.

This market demands different things than it did then, especially in this competitive genre.

The writing has been on the wall for a month. One only had to look at the NCSoft 3Q financials to see this was coming. It’s right there in black and white.

Anecdotal evidence is piling up as well. This game isn’t holding people. They play through till 80, and then bail on it.

That isn’t going to keep the company afloat.

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Either you get with the program, that progression is needed and it’s needed now, or you can kiss Guild Wars 2 completely goodbye.

This game needs a carrot that’s not Legendaries. Folks, if you think that this isn’t being done because they are having a retention problem, then you need to look again.

If ArenaNet doesn’t put something in there to keep people playing, and quickly, GW2 is toast. I love the game, but that’s just the truth.

Where are you getting this data from?

Experience.

You don’t change your basic and core philosophy midstream, on a dime, without some external force. If things are humming right along as expected, we wouldn’t be seeing this change now.

Typically it’s money that’s the driving force. They likely have internal data that suggests their retention isn’t where they want it and therefore are introducing this vertical progression mechanic as a way to keep people engaged. Furthermore, the infusion mechanic is a gate to keep folks from burning through the new content at the rate they have been.

Either you get with the program, that progression is needed and it’s needed now, or you can kiss Guild Wars 2 completely goodbye.

This game needs a carrot that’s not Legendaries. Folks, if you think that this isn’t being done because they are having a retention problem, then you need to look again.

If ArenaNet doesn’t put something in there to keep people playing, and quickly, GW2 is toast. I love the game, but that’s just the truth.

Kimbald.2697:

Crackbone.5710:

PhiLL.1746:

Crackbone.5710:

Complaining about the method of delivery is akin to complaining about the end result.

No, it is not.
Pie is one thing. How you eat it, is another one.

Touche.

I’d challenge you to find a quick fix to stop the bleeding that I assert is going on with the player base besides gear.

What I truly believe is this.

ArenaNet underestimated the speed at which the players would plow through the content. Their solution is Ascended gear and (to placate those wanting progression), Infusions (to gate the content and slow down the players).

Why developers continue to believe they can produce content that will “sufficiently challenge” the players to play at the speed they want them to is beyond me, but that’s another discussion for another time.

the worst part is that I fully agree with you.

But that doesn’t change the fact this game can not simply come back on the core principle they sold their game on.
Not after a mere few months.

There could be created different incentives to keep players playing, but the first one they picked is the one they should have resorted to last…

Perhaps.

However every other change I could think of in this pea brain of mine would involve much more time in preparation. (Balancing, etc)

This is a stopgap measure to stop what I think is a major reduction in active players. They looked at their data from those who’ve left and I’ll bet you a dollar to a donut that the lack of endgame progression was by far the largest reason people cited as to why they left.

Amulrei.4973:

Crackbone.5710:

Bottom line, ArenaNet needs to keep people playing.

Do you honestly think this move, which is clearly pissing off masses of players, is going to keep people playing let alone putting money in to the game…?

I tend to find business practices that are completely the opposite of what your own company president promised are not the most reliable ways of making money.

I’d challenge you to find a quick fix to stop the bleeding that I assert is going on with the player base besides gear.

What “bleed”? Where are you even getting these notions from…?

Experience.

When something that’s a core philosophy changes so very quickly there’s typically something behind the scenes that is forcing that change.

Typically it has to do with money. Sure, it’s a guess, but an educated and experienced one. Things don’t just “change” because things are working. Something in their model clearly isn’t working, and they’ve decided on this course of action to right whatever is wrong.

PhiLL.1746:

Crackbone.5710:

Complaining about the method of delivery is akin to complaining about the end result.

No, it is not.
Pie is one thing. How you eat it, is another one.

Touche.

I’d challenge you to find a quick fix to stop the bleeding that I assert is going on with the player base besides gear.

What I truly believe is this.

ArenaNet underestimated the speed at which the players would plow through the content. Their solution is Ascended gear and (to placate those wanting progression), Infusions (to gate the content and slow down the players).

Why developers continue to believe they can produce content that will “sufficiently challenge” the players to play at the speed they want them to is beyond me, but that’s another discussion for another time.

PhiLL.1746:

Dear Crackbone,

NOBODY complaining is against more character progression and more high level content.

Best regards,
PhiLL

Complaining about the method of delivery is akin to complaining about the end result.

The GEAR is the progression in this game. You can fault the design, but we are where we are.

Likely down the line you’ll see expanded trait lines, more points, more skills, but something is pushing ANet to go this route now.

(My guess, customer retention is in the toilet compared to their internal projections).

Kimbald.2697:

Crackbone.5710:

Loumy.7841:

In a couple of months when all the “hardcore” grinders have their Ascended gear, A-net will reveal some even more powerful gear, which we’ll also have to get to compete in WvWvW. And in 6 months some even more powerful gear etc etc etc

And this is precisely what keeps people playing in a game such as this.

Let’s cut to the chase. This isn’t the original Guild Wars. People need character progression. As it stands, progression is pretty thin at the end.

ArenaNet needs people to continue to play. If people don’t play, Guild Wars 2 goes away.

It’s really not rocket science. It’s business. I sincerely believe ANet wanted to have little to no gear progression outside of the expansions, however, they see the writing on the wall. People hit cap and get bored. Bored people have a habit of going other places to play… They also rarely come back.

Problem is, you need these people to fund the game.

than they should have considered this before making their manifesto and their promises about no gear grind…

If you sell a game on that promise, you’re expected to uphold it.

That is regardless of what you say is correct or not: they did promise not to do this.
Any other opinion on this being a good choice or not, is irrelevant.
The game was sold on that promise.

And things change. They always do. They likely wanted to keep that promise but quite frankly couldn’t financially.

Let’s be frank, this is a compromise. The type of stat increase you are looking is minimal at best. It’s negligible.

This isn’t 2005 anymore. You need more than just cosmetic items to keep people invested in their characters.

Loumy.7841:

In a couple of months when all the “hardcore” grinders have their Ascended gear, A-net will reveal some even more powerful gear, which we’ll also have to get to compete in WvWvW. And in 6 months some even more powerful gear etc etc etc

And this is precisely what keeps people playing in a game such as this.

Let’s cut to the chase. This isn’t the original Guild Wars. People need character progression. As it stands, progression is pretty thin at the end.

ArenaNet needs people to continue to play. If people don’t play, Guild Wars 2 goes away.

It’s really not rocket science. It’s business. I sincerely believe ANet wanted to have little to no gear progression outside of the expansions, however, they see the writing on the wall. People hit cap and get bored. Bored people have a habit of going other places to play… They also rarely come back.

Problem is, you need these people to fund the game.

Where are the thousands of hours?

Bottom line, ArenaNet needs to keep people playing. It’s obvious if you read between the lines with this entire update that their current course wasn’t going to pay the bills over time.

Plans change and reality has a way of making ideas fall back to earth.

I suggest that if you enjoy Guild Wars 2 whatsoever, you embrace these changes.

They might just be what keeps Guild Wars 2 afloat for many years to come.

While this is a change from their original philosophy, please don’t act like Exotic gear is a prize of any sort.

It comes easy. Hell, I had most of my exotic pieces on my main before I even hit 80.

The bottom line is, this game isn’t Guild Wars. This game has been opened up to a load of new players that need some sort of progression.

While I’d like to see more before I render judgment, I feel some of these whines and doomsaying folks are in a bit too early.

Let’s see what it is first.

Oldbugga.7029:

The epidemic cooldown is pretty short so it can generally be applied quicker than the regen on many condition removals…..if they do dispell then its another cooldown they have used and your team may be able to take advantage of that. Our support role is NOT all about damage and spreading but our synergy with our team mates and making the opposite side do something other than zerging the team. It IS a support tool and should be looked at in conjunction with team mate condition application and not just the conditions we apply.

Bingo.

Epidemic should be used in conjunction with other players to light up a target with conditions and then the necro spreads.

If you are able to synergize with other players, you can destroy zergs. Sure, condition removal is a problem, however, the reapplication of Epidemic is on such a short cooldown, it’s usually a non issue.

Thinking something like “Voidstar” in SWTOR.

Fun game mode.

Link’s bad. Would like to take a look at this build.

I’d like an update on this. Fine, you’re working on it, but we haven’t heard anything about this issue for a couple of days now. I’ll forgive mistakes, most people will, but lack of communication, that’s a problem.

Update?