Guild Wars 2

A lot of us know that, for PvE, builds that rely upon Condition Damage for their DPS are very underpowered.

I will suggest that there are two reasons for this:

i) The Condition Caps (I understand technical limitations of 25 max- this is not a post about raising them)

ii) Weapon Strength

iii) Finally – My Suggestion to Fix this

Now I will address those two reasons.

i) The Condition Caps

Many professions that spec for conditions are capable of applying nearly all conditions all by themselves.

Condition-specced Necromancers and Engineers, for example, often have no problem reaching 25 stacks of bleeding on a target, along with maintaining poison, or burning, etc.

Concerning dungeons; having ONE of those in the party will be enough to reach these caps. Adding more party members with Condition builds makes every one after the first nearly useless, as they will not be able to apply many more unique conditions to be their own DPS. They will not be contributing. Consider it as so; imagine that 25 Bleeding is 5000 DPS when maintained. The necromancer in the party can do that easily; his DPS is 5000. If you add an Engineer to the party who can achieve the same, these two characters now share the same “pool” as it were on the enemy. They will eat into each other’s Bleeding stacks, and will be responsible for half each – now their respective DPS is 2500. They are weaker, even though there are two of them in the party!

Concerning world-bosses and the like; you will be totally useless with your conditions – the Boss will be at 25 bleeding, poison, burning, 25 vulnerability, etc etc constantly. You, as an individual, will not be contributing as that mass of conditions is refreshed every second by the zerg. The damage from Power-users, however, does not get “refreshed”.

This is made worse by the fact that even professions that do not spec for Condition Damage will be applying conditions themselves. For example (though not necessarily the meta) the Warrior Rifle auto attack applies bleeding. Many warriors will not be specced for condition damage at all, but their rifles will be overwriting the Bleeding stacks provided by classes that have specced for it. The Warrior, invested in Power, will be doing appropriate damage with his rifle, but will be eating into the DPS of the Condition Damage classes. On another note, Guardians and Elementalists are capable of providing permanent burning, and an Elementalist’s rotation involving Churning Earth can overwrite a large number of Bleed stacks with his own. In this scenario, regarding the hypothetical “5000 DPS” from 25 Bleeding – that was the case when everyone who was providing the Bleeding stacks were specced for Condition Damage. As it will actually be shared out amongst people who haven’t done so, it may end up being that the Necromancer can only be responsible for half the stacks – 2500 DPS, but the other half, maintained by everyone else, only amounts to 1000 DPS. Power-users will, themselves, make Condition Damage nonviable.

Ravious.4269:

The other problem, I feel, is condi-spec fights for DPS with non-condi. It’d be like if a dire thief stole DPS from a ‘zerk warrior. The enemy gets loaded with a lot of crappy bleeds and the people actually spec’d to give strong bleeds lose out while they wait for the crappy bleeds to go away.

Ok, so 25 bleed cap is here to stay, but why can’t we push out weak bleeds. Possibly give them % of their remaining damage when they are pushed out. Call it Exit Wounds.

Yes, I addressed it in the first comment; part of the reason why I believe my solution of “overcharged” conditions (Hemophilia, Toxic Shock, Nightmare, etc) would be a viable solution is because their formula for the instant damage involves Condition Damage and not Power – therefore although the Berserker users can still “eat up” space for conditions with empty damage, this only works to help the Condition Damage users get the chance to “overcharge” their condition attacks. The Berserker user would not be able to “overcharge” their conditions for comparable damage.

In your solution, I am worried that it creates a situation where “more than one Condition Build” becomes obsolete again – if anyone can “push out” a condition and call it “Exit Wounds”, then they still eat a condition with high Condition Damage stat on it, and Berserker Gear becomes just as effective with this form of direct damage. My solution only benefits those with the investment into “condition damage” stat, Berserkers who “overcharge” do not eat up a “high Condition Damage” tick and do negligible damage with the overcharge.

I realise I have only just started using the term “overcharge” but I hope the meaning is still clear as to what I am referencing in my Suggestion post.

To clarify: I don’t think that these “overcharge” attacks should do instant damage that is comparable to Berserker’s using Power attacks, but only to supplement their own dps to bridge the gap. Condition Damage gets “pushed out” of party groups for the reason we have described.

“Regarding PvP”

I am not a brilliant expert on PvP, I would never dare claim to be.

I am also not a big fan of “seperating PvE and PvP mechanics”.

So, despite my admitted amateurism, I am willing to say that I do not think my suggestion would affect PvP balance too much.

This is because of the prevalence of cleansing. Even if it is a condition heavy meta, the “overcharged” effect only happens once-and-while the target is maintained at the maximum stacks for the condition. If someone specced for conditions is able to keep someone at 25 stacks of bleeding, for example, and that person is not able to cleanse that, then (for the damage I have in mind that the “overcharged” effect is able to put out) the “overcharged” effect is likely the least of their worries.

Regarding the other conditions like “Burning” or “Poison” – they stack in duration, and in my suggestion I suggested that they stack a maximum of 5 times or similar before additional applications “overcharge” instead. This could be a good place to split between PvE and PvP – the number of applications that need to be stacked before the “overcharged” effect begins turning new applications into direct damage. This cap could be higher in PvP so that it is more difficult to reach it. I also suggested that each “overcharge effect” have a different base damage depending on its type – kind of like a co-efficient. These co-efficients could be lower in PvP, similar to how “Confusion” has been handled.

In my mind, I would also think that this could extend to other conditions like “Chill” or “Vulnerability” (after the tenth application of “Chill” it is capped, and additional uses create the “ice block” effect or similar on the enemy – that is merely an idea of an idea!). However the problem definitely lies at the moment with the damaging conditions, and – in this line of thinking, not talking about the development of the idea in the game – are the easiest to address (the solution to each is just an instance of “direct damage”).

I am sorry but those suggestions do not seem balanced at all.

Fire – Well, that one sounds alright as a trait and not something innate, but cooldown would need to be like 20 seconds

Air – The importance of evade is the invulnerability frames, not necessarily covering ground quickly. Removing all movement condis is OP. Changing the endurance regen rules is not user-friendly

Water – Seems ok as a trait… bit odd. I see where you’re coming from – “who would stick around in water for 20 seconds to get the full immunity?” But then the whole idea just seems pointless, no one sticks in water for more than 5, let alone 10.

Earth – So presuming you’ve got D or S MH, you can keep up permanent cripple by just auto attacking. Not only that, every 5th bleed is also 2s immobilise? That’s 1.6666 auto attacks with scepter. That is ridic OP.

These are huge, sweeping changes not suitable for PvP. Anet has already addressed that they will be reverting some of the earlier nerfs to Ele that made it less suitable as a roamer.

Man, I was hoping so hard that Eir would become a Druid after that story step… Braham takes her away to perform those last rites, but the amazing healing powers of the druids in Maguuma intervene. Eir picks up a staff and joins us to help search out the rest of her crew, Braham takes her bow and becomes the dragonhunter.

Proven.2854:

Well, you’re still getting a boost to your condition damage stat. How much of a percentage is that increased? You’re also getting boosts to your defensive stats as well.

I am afraid I do not follow. You will have to elaborate.

Example Stats:

An Exotic Sword (lets ignore celestial): 90/64/64 stat distribution. 905-1000
An Ascended Sword: 94/67/67 stat distribution. 950-1050.

As you can see, if you move from an Exotic MH Weapon to an Ascended MH Weapon, you will gain FOUR stat points in its primary stat. Two Handed Weapons gain NINE.

The REAL boost is that weapon strength increase. That is a 5% increase. That ONLY applies to “Damage” (the formula involving Power). It does not help condition builds.

Condition Builds will only benefit from 8 or 9 stat increase to Condition Damage. That really is ALL they get.

The boosts to the defensive stats is THREE (MH) or SIX (2H). That is all the difference.

Most Condition Builds will have around 1600+ Condition Damage. Here is an example.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQFAGmQkUcNPD0D3DXAxIFFTwA-j0BBINA0CAZSFRjtKKs1XDRTJjIqWpETKAYWWB-w

See what difference it makes changing the exotic staff to an ascended one. Condition Damage goes up by 9. That is all the difference.

Roughly 0.005% increase, in that build. This will be even less when Might Stacks are introduced. (atm only corruption stacks are assumed).

A 0.005% increase for getting an Ascended Weapon, for Condition Builds.

A 5% increase for getting an Ascended Weapon, for Power Builds.

To clarify again for anyone else reading, Power should undoubtedly be the quicker way of dealing damage. But that jump is entirely unequal.

EDIT: to make even worse, since conditions begin at a “base damage” (they will do damage, of course, even if Condition Damage is 0), the actual increase in damage you will find from Bleeding, from example, is about 0.003% by upgrading to an Ascended Weapon. 0.002% if your group also stacks Might. Power Ascended Weapons will always be a 5% increase, regardless of Bloodlust or Might or other gear/foods/nourishment.

ii) Weapon Strength

There is – ignoring the infusion slot – no point for a Condition Damage build to upgrade their exotic weapon to an Ascended weapon.

In comparison, when someone using a power build upgrades in this manner, they experience roughly a 5% DPS increase. This is because the formula for Direct Damage (loosely) involves the product of:

Weapon Strength x Attack stat

EDIT: To avoid further confusion as to what “Weapon Strength” actually affects, I will put the actual formula

Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

The Attack Stat is not used; it is purely derived as the sum of Weapon Strength and Power and only exists on the Hero Panel. Damage involves the product of Weapon Strength and Power. The Wiki explains this in detail.

Condition Damage does not use the weapon strength of the weapon equipped. The only difference between an exotic weapon and an ascended one for a condition damage build is the meagre stat point increase (4-9 points). The difference that will make is completely ignorable. So Ascended Weapons provide Power-users with a 5% DPS increase and an infusion slot; Condition Damage-users only benefit from the infusion slot.

We need to provide something so that Condition Damage users are similarly rewarded.

iii) My Suggestion

Firstly, we all know what the benefits of Condition Damage are.

• They usually come on ranged weapons, and so allow you to stay at range, and a Bleeding Stack will be the same whether it was applied by Staff or Dagger. Power-users need to bear in mind the weapon they have equipped, and skills with more effective co-efficients are almost always on melee weapons.

• They ignore armor.

• In [PvE], mobs ignore the fact that conditions are stacked on them (opposed to PvP, where players will cleanse them) – you can apply conditions to enemies, then kite around while your DPS stays mostly constant and is guaranteed. People wearing Berserker need to react and dodge properly so as to avoid any loss of DPS – the moment they stop attacking, DPS becomes 0.

• It only requires ONE stat (Condition Duration, its counterpart, can reach 80% from trait points, food and nourishment alone, almost its cap of 100%) to invest in – Power users rely upon a combination of Power/Precision/Critical Damage (aka, their gear has to provide all 3 – the maximum number of different stats, outside of Celestial gear). Therefore Condition Damage users normally also invest in Vitality or Toughness, and are inherently more survivable.

So I am not suggesting that conditions be made comparable to Power attacks.

The reward of Berserker playstyle is that you risk a lot (no defense, melee) for the quickest kill.

However, something does need to be done to address the fact that parties are limited to one Condition Damage user max (who are made even less powerful by party members who happen to apply conditions coincidentally), and something needs to happen so that they can feel like they’re contributing in Events in open-world PvE.

I suggest that all Conditions – Burning, Bleeding, Poison, etc – have a cap.

This would be 25 for Bleeding (as usual), and some number like 5 for Burning, 5 for Poison – (they will only stack in duration 5 times) – and so forth.

Once this cap is breached – for example, a necromancer uses a skill that applies a Bleeding stack to an enemy with 25 Bleed already – that new bleeding is not applied, it does not “refresh” the oldest stack on the enemy.

Instead, a new pulse of direct damage is applied.

This could be called “Hemophilia” for Bleeding, “Toxic Shock” for Poison, “Nightmare” for Torment – there are better names, but you see the idea.

These apply an instant amount of damage to the enemy.

This damage would depend upon:

• the type of condition that would be applied (for example, Torment is very difficult to keep anywhere close to 25, whereas 5 stacks of Burning would be easily maintainable)

• the Condition Damage stat of the person applying it

• the weapon strength of the weapon applying it

Actual values of how all of those interact would need to be balanced carefully

But I believe this offers a solution to keep Condition Damage valid in open-world PvE, and would allow for a whole lot more diversity with builds in the game.

Berserker Damage can stay King, of course, in its philosophy of “greatest risk, greatest reward”. (that is itself its own problem – that there is little risk in dungeons when the majority of fights involve “stacking” on the same spot to exploit poor AI and everyone can auto attack to victory. This would require its own thread, but essentially the fix would be to make encounters with mobs and Bosses that punish players for not moving, for sticking close together. And when a Zerker party can melt most things in 10 seconds flat because there is no risk, why would anyone ever consider Conditions? Some fractals encounters have been designed with engaging AI and mechanics quite well )

Thank you to everyone that read my suggestion. If I have made any stupid mistakes or assumptions, then I would gladly be corrected.