Guild Wars 2

Okiru.7635:

Because once my character has the gear with the stats I’ve picked to fit my playstyle, stats become an afterthought. I rather focus on when I need to dodge or which abilities to use to defeat my foes.

Which is exactly why content fail to scale efficiently and gw2 losing its longevity when it comes to PVE challenges. I wish to fight and struggle for new content and you prefer waiting. Lets agree to disagree.

Okiru.7635:

Tiers of gear, to me, is like gathering parts for a car you are building. While some people find putting together a car fun, I much rather just drive it. And I, for one, really enjoy the way the GW2 car drives! Gear progression would ruin the game for people like me. With most other MMOs using that system I’m not sure why people are here instead of there.

I have been playing since release and I have 3 80s( the 3 professions that I really like). I still enjoy:
-guild missions
- WvW
-meta events
-dailies/monthlies
-dungeons/fractals
-living story
-PvP

This game offers so many activities that are fun to do. Perhaps the only way you feel accomplished is by finally getting the top gear!! And then using it against lesser foes. Only to have to farmed the next tier after a couple of months. That’s so 2005 =P.

I think you should read all my posts if you think I’m only after better gear and stomping casuals. This is not at all what it is about. I will not try to argue with you regarding what you get satisfaction from because that we are all entitled to our own opinions here. I just think some of you are a bit narrow minded that the game has to be for either you or me. Why not both? I really enjoy, slowly, struggling through immensely challenging PVE content.

I fail to understand how a tiered endgame where gear is a gate mechanism ruin the game for you if the parts you enjoy are mainly outside this e.g. metas, wvw, living story, pvp.

Imagine if fractals were built like this, having two tiers for starters.

At first you face fractals tier 1:

ABCDEF

You are able to beat those without AR or AP (yes I made AP up). But you acquire Gear with same base stats but for the first time with additional AR and AP. Beating F should not be something done without a lot of practice, teamwork and good execution. It takes months before the average PUG can beat F. Awesome bragging rights in form of titles and cosmetics.

You make your first attempt on fractals tier 2:

GHIJKL

You will probably find yourself failing for the same reason as in tier 1, tricky mechanics, the need for perfect execution and teamwork but also likely that you can’t finish in time because of low AP and you will more likely die because of low AR. You will pull a lot of hairs, revisiting tier 1 stacking AR and AP and possibly only beat GHI for quite some time until you pick up some tier 2 AP/AR gear. Finally progressing towards L after weeks of practice you beat it gaining bragging rights in forms of titles and cosmetic gear (not better than what can be acquired outside, just different and more suited for progressing in future fractal tiers).

So you are all decked out in tier 2 fractals gear, you look awesome, you have the same stat points available on gear outside with the addition of AR/AP that is useless outside fractals.

Exactly how would this ruin the game for anyone?

TheDaiBish.9735:

Itemisation

“Stat allocation is too similar, zero uniqueness when developing character”

Huh? So you’re saying that someone who is dressed in Berserker’s and specced for pure damage will be just as effective at doing condition damage as someone in, say, Rabid gear who is specced for condition damage?

I also don’t see how higher and higher stats would allow for this, outside of just putting out bigger numbers.

What I mean is not all gear needs to look so similar with the stat allocation 1,1,2 – 1,2,1 – 2,1,1. What about an item with almost everything put into condition damage? Also not all gear need to have exactly the same item level/stat points available for distribution. If you allow for a randomness within the tier it can urge you to try again. Also it could allow for a more dynamic setup if on equip effects was not just limited to runes but available on random items.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Unfairness – pertaining to Legendary weapons

Legendary weapons were poorly implemented in the aquisition. The one thing they did do right though is not make them a requirement for maximum effectiveness. Not to mention Legendary weapons have / will have their own perks:

• Will always be on par with the highest tier of gear
• You’ll be able to change stat allocation prefix outside of combat

This can easily be done through cosmetics and such. I don’t see why it HAS to be higher and higher stats.

I’m not necessarily asking for higher and higher stats but I can’t think of an easier way of allowing for dungeon scaling where mechanics can not alone assure that content tomorrow is more difficult than yesterday.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Dragons

I agree with this. I personally think Anet dropped the ball on releasing an API allowing playrs to create timers for when these events spawn (although this wouldn’t be an issue if victory wasn’t assured). IMO, events like the Dragons should:

• Utilise the entire zone
• Have consequences for the entire zone should it fail
• Force teamwork and organization
• Have their mechanics scale with player participation, not just health.

I think most agree when it comes to dragons and I agree with all your points.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Griefing

Griefing is only fun for the one doing the griefing. Also, the whole ‘everybody loves griefing secretly’ thing is plain rubbish. I don’t enjoy intentionally annoying people, especially considering they may just want a relaxing gaming session. I’d rather work with other people. I can’t say I agree with the idea that introducing ways to grief other players would improve the game in any way.

I realize now that this was poor wording and my glimpse of irony didn’t come though. This game made in a way that it opens up basically no competitive elements and what I mean is that griefing as a player choice can to some extent be healthy and increase the vitality of a game.

Take the jumping puzzle in wvwvw as an example, knock someone off the top just before the chest or siege the gladiator pit with arrow carts. These things amuse one side and the other, not so much, griefing in a healthy form no?

What I mean with griefing is where there is an objective and you’re winning at the expense of someone else. Where there are no objective and neither is a winner, this is a less healthy form which I don’t support. What I would like is in some way to introduce these elements of healthy griefing in the open world. I realize now that it would have been much better to say that I would like competitive elements in the open world and not just in arenas/wvwvw.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Stats Vs Cosmetics

Since I haven’t done much in the way of Fractals, I’ll just address this point (although I’m curious how much your were playing per day in order to get max AR).

I never reached max AR by any means but it is not the gear progression itself that puts me off here. It is that you are actually not introduced to any new content where you can put the AR to use, just the same a bit tougher than last time.

TheDaiBish.9735:

1. I don’t think the best gear should be gated. Rather, unique looking gear and titles should be gated by content. The more challenging the content, the more visually impressive the gear is.

I think its not one or the other but a mix that would create the best experience. I agree with you when you say the more challenging, the more visually impressive reward. The problem here boils down to that content can only scale with so many factors and if you want content introduced tomorrow to be harder than yesterday, what will the scaling factors be if not gear stats?

What is gated and what is not can change over time when it comes to gear stats but as you say the most visually compelling items and titles should definitely be gated at all times.

TheDaiBish.9735:

2. I can’t say that I’ve ever felt a sense of accomplishment in getting higher stats. The feeling of accomplishment for me is doing and beating the actual content itself; doing a rather difficult puzzle, that sort of thing.

I’ll just copy what i wrote to Xae Isareth before and yes I agree with you.

For me it is not replacing the gear itself that is rewarding but that the fact it could allow me to discover and conquer new content I could previously not do. I am obviously compelled to the idea of a tiered endgame. If content can only scale based of mechanics, only so much can happen.

It is just that the sense of accomplishment becomes bigger if your earned your way to this new content, just not waited for it.

HumaCarrionEater.8254:

Bragging rights and griefing are two of the major things that ruin games, imo. Bragging rights to a certain extent of course make sense, such as say carrying around a legendary, but I strongly suspect you actually mean stomp casuals and smile about it. Not every game has to cater to the top tier. Having more than one way to get something is a good thing. Griefing is just not okay.

I will say I am all for harder, more complex dungeons and even raiding of a kind, as long as it remains five people.

By bragging rights I do not mean pubstomping. And regarding griefing I will get back to this as mentioned earlier. Bragging can be done in many ways, these are just some of those that I think should be extended:

Measurements
Something missing completely today. It could be everything from showing off a performance e.g. scoreboard, dps meter, heal meter, apm, damage taken, death count, resurrects.

Cosmetics
Cosmetics showing e.g. dedication, progression in content or luck. Parts of this exist with legendarily today but other things than to much time on your hands could also be rewarded in various ways.

Titles
Since there are no progressive endgame content except for fractals there is not much base for this. But lets start with that being able to brag about your accomplishments in fractals?

Superiority
This links back to measurements but could also relate to pubstomping. I wrote earlier how I think gear progression could work in and outside PVE content e.g. agony scaling.

Poledo.3256:

Your major gripes are what draws most of the current player base in. The model you are describing exists in most MMO’s currently on the market. Have you tried RIFT? I think you would honestly like it.

I certainly have and I certainly don’t. There are so many things a game has to get right before those elements such as end game content and gear progression even plays an important role. Things which gw2 have succeed with.

Poledo.3256:

I think you stated your thoughts well but you totally lost me at supporting griefing. I’ll agree with you on the dungeons. They are lackluster and either too easy or too frustrating. Easy/hard does not equate fun and most dungeon paths are just not fun. I’ll run them for money or tokens but rarely for fun and that disappoints me.

I wouldn’t want to see raids added in though. That’s another tired mechanic and a scene I am done with after 14 years of playing MMO’s.

Thanks for the post.

I feel I need to clarify some things regarding griefing. There are many levels of griefing. I will try to further explain this in a post below because a few more was onto the issue. I clearly do not support griefing in many forms but I’ll try to explain what “creative gameplay elements” I would like to see more of.

I have also had it with raiding and was, and still am very excited that gw2 decided to go for a 5 man approach. Raids can be awesome when lead successfully but the commitment needed is far beyond what I am willing to sacrifice these days. There was a time for that though

Xae Isareth.1364:

This is quite personal, but I tend to think that the traditional gear treadmill you have in 99% of all other MMOs is actually very, very, detrimental to progress. It really puts me off getting the ‘best’ gear because in a couple of month’s time, all those hours you put into getting said gear gets wasted as that gear now becomes the second best. Since Legendaries will always be the best gear in the game, I’m incentivized to put the countless hours needed to get them.

This is obviously an important one! I would love if you could elaborate exactly why you are put off by the idea of replacing your old gear. There is always a balance to things and I don’t think we necessarily need to turn things upside down here.

For me it is not replacing the gear itself that is rewarding but that the fact it could allow me to discover and conquer new content I could previously not do. I am obviously compelled to the idea of a tiered endgame. If content can only scale based of mechanics, only so much can happen.

I think parts of the problem lies within how arenanet have decided to expose new content to players on a regular basis. Everything is always made available to everybody, regardless of e.g. level, items, experience, guild or solo. What if parts of new content could be introduced only to those that accomplished something special. I think this is what they attempted with agony resistance in fractals. A clever stat that doesn’t affect the balance outside fractals. The problem is that you are just rewarded with a possibility to beat the same content gradually tougher and exactly how exciting is this in the long run? The key for me is earning new content not just waiting for it.

I think arenanet is really onto something with agony as a stat not affecting e.g. wvwvw balance. They could very well also add an offensive version that mobs in e.g. fractals is subject to giving the player a sense of progression. It must, however, be significantly notable compared to the stats of today.

I fully understand you when you say your effort could feel wasted if they release new gear. Isn’t the problem itself how you acquire that gear? If it means a separate, tedious activity I’m with you but if it means the new gear is a reward from beating the new content. Time spend doing something thrilling, exciting and new, what you enjoy the most, well that is just awesome?

Xae Isareth.1364:

There’s quite a few ‘difficult’ encounters or boss fights which you and your guild can work on. For example, Temple of Balhazaar.

It’s just that the effort:reward in this game is often turned on its head. E.g. zerging around the Queen’s Pavilion at the moment, which of course is a semi-afk task for any character with ranged attacks, earns you more gold than anything else at the moment.

I agree with you that there is tough content out there but there is no incentive to make you go back once you have successfully completed it. There is no sense of accomplishment for these events and what you already said regarding rewards they are just non existent, karma vendors hustling the same stuff that is available elsewhere. I dont think I need to say that these are of course only my opinions.

Part 2 of 2

Dragons
They sure look epic! Sorry to say but it ends there. You have proven in many other areas of this game that you are capable of more creative mechanics and tougher challenges. The rewards are in line with the difficulty, meager and pointless.

Take them off their regular schedule! There is nothing fun in knowing exactly when/what to expect. Increase the difficulty and make mistakes less forgiving. This would encourage a community effort, communication and knowledge sharing.

It must be possible, actually likely to fail without good execution and have the content of the game spur to conflicts and encourage leadership. Let me elaborate on this because it leads to quite a few of the interesting factors contributing to the longevity of an mmorpg. Some of it might appear shallow and harsh but it is vital parts, even though touchy subjects.

Bragging rights and recognition
Performance and contribution must be recognized just as well as failure and freeloading. Making a name for yourself is a central role in any mmorpg. Guild wars 2 does a great job in anonymization, your feats when it comes to performance in group efforts will go unnoticed. It is only when it comes to the exploring and holiday event participation that you earn minor bragging rights. While I suspect that measuring of performance have been ignored as a clear design decision I can’t help to think it would help create a feeling of character progression rather than just being a mere feeling.

Collective punishment
It is only when collective punishment at a larger scale is introduced that poor performance of the individual becomes a real issue. Your mistakes could have much more severe consequences for your group e.g. group wiping, boss empowerment, new skills. Frustration and conflicts are born from this and it is not just bad. To deal with this takes real leadership and will separate the poor from the humble real leaders and possibly leading the guilds establishing good/bad reputation.

Griefing
It is nothing to be ashamed of, everybody secretly loves griefing. It puts that evil but true grin on your face. Since there are no mob tagging, loot sharing and opposing faction to compete with in the open world the griefing is mostly limited to wvwvw jumping puzzle. One has to evaluate what kind of vitality would be added to the the game as a whole if the concept was broadened. In other games there have been great entertainment value both from griefing and preventing griefing through cunning, alliances or brute force.

Itemization
It only takes minor stubbornness to get close to or the best gear in game and the differences are barely noticeable going that extra mile. The feeling of occasional noticeable upgrades goes a long way but it is unfortunately not there. The stat allocation is just too similar and allows for zero uniqueness when developing your character. It should always be possible to improve your character but it is not.

Unfairness
Seeing someone with a legendary just makes me laugh at his lost time when it could very well be a substantial upgrade making me want that. I will not go into details about what I think about legendary farm more than it is sad, so sad.

I wish that you realized that it is ok if not everything is fair, reward accomplishments, group efforts and tremendous luck. Allow people to have superior gear to others.

Endgame dungeons
The greatest moments of my gaming life is undoubtedly defeating bosses with friends after months of trying in other unmentioned games, trying to understand mechanics, preparing properly, gearing up specifically for an event. A boss beaten in a few tries is an experience soon forgotten. Those that leave you with bald spots on your head will be remembered.

Content lifecycle
Sometimes I think you’re just trying too kitten being unique. There are only a few mmorpg’s that have had a good run for so long. Learn from each other, borrow ideas. The players will benefit from a game where they can feel awesome for as much time as possible. There is no room for any fanboyism in this discussion.

Glorious future, most things remain to be done! And yes, I know Conan != Hee-man.

If you think any of the statements are unfair to the current/announced state of the game and I am just uniformed feel free to point what parts and why it is not true. I apologize for any bad grammar/spelling so that you can spare yourself the time from pointing it out.

If you made it this far I want to express my sincere gratitude!

Best regards,

Egeira

Part 1 of 2

TL;DR
I’m a bitter old man that wish gw2 would change to tickle my interest once again. Characters in gw2 will peak too quickly. Continuous character improvement is a must in any mmorpg that aims to keep the player interested for years. Content in guild wars 2 is too easy and there is no sense of accomplishment with the incrementally, slowly tougher fractals as only source of end game dungeon. There is nothing on the horizon for players looking for that truly challenging PVE content. I wish gw2 would address these things to get my friends hooked again so I could play it for years to come.

Background
First I want to thank ArenaNet for an amazing game which have granted me and my friends months of enjoyment. You have gotten so many things right in this game, snappy and responsive movement, amazing and consistent artistic direction, vast amount of content, freakishly frequent content updates, dynamic and interesting class concept (even though i like gw1 profession system more).

I, sort of, get paid to listen to people whine. Amazingly there is always so much energy in a one to one dialogue or around the coffee area, truly potential ideas and business value in the air. When you ask if anyone follow through or have asked for help/resources it is rare to get the answer I want. Speak up numbnuts! So I will try to live by my example and not just sit here with a measly sad face, whining in my corner. I am going to speak my mind in a way that I truly hope can affect this game to create even more enjoyment for the many players out there.

My intent is not in any way to trash talk the game, community or creators but to hopefully shed some light on factors that are being overlooked hurting the endgame, withholding the true potential of this game.

I myself was an avid player, daily, from launch up until and including the christmas events. Devouring, what I would like to imagine, the full aspect of the game e.g. arenas, wvwvw, exploring, jumping puzzles, event farming, collecting gear, crafting, achievements as the sad completion kitten I am, dragons, you name it. True satisfaction for me will (probably) and have always come from PVE challenges and not just any challenges! I like my dungeons rough. That said I will focus on the PVE/Boss/Dungeon aspect of the game and leaving e.g. arenas/wvwvw to someone else caring more for those particular elements.

The meaning of any game is much like the meaning of life (i’ll toss this one in for free for those that haven’t figured it out already) is to spend as much time possible feeling awesome. Different things get us to that state of mind. If you spend too much time not feeling awesome you’ll eventually/hopefully move on to something else.

Fractals
You can imagine how fractals excited me on launch. Stunning content, creative boss mechanics and it was scaleable! Plowing our way through the difficulty levels, finally being rewarded true stat upgrades. Cosmetic upgrades is fun and all but the sense of reward wears off quickly compared to making your character stronger.

Stats vs. Cosmetics – http://i.imgur.com/bpA9pJ8.jpg

Sadly it didn’t take long until we realized, that once again, we had decked out gear (stat) wise. And for what good? The slowly increasing difficulty of the fractals was the only thing putting up a fight (and not a huge one at that). The smaller steps in increased difficulty the smaller sense of accomplishment between each round, enough increments and you’ll go numb feeling nothing. And that was it with fractals. It just felt pointless after some time.