(edited by Fenrir.4237)
Showing Posts For Fenrir.4237:
What you quoted originally was talking about 100nades, which you responded to without changing the subject to Grenade Barrage, therefore your subject remained 100nades.
The entire conversation was about 100nades, not Grenade Barrage, as GB is not a problem on its own. Then you come in, start talking about GB without actually changing the subject, and you look like an idiot because it looks like you think 100nades is easy to land and has a huge effective radius.Not my fault you lack the communication skills needed for a coherent conversation.
Is true, I made a mistake there. Still don’t know why you try to make yourself out to be the jerk at every topic. seriously, please stop that… it’s very annoying. Also, one of the topics you quoted was me linking grenade barrage and me commenting on the skill itself.
Eh don’t mind him dude. He’s just going to pick at every little wrong thing you might of said and not even discuss the main point your post is trying to make. Did that with me too in the other thread. Your point still holds.
And yea totally agree Taril. The only other argument (and probably the best) I could make is to try playing a Thief themselves and make a video of how they do everything as they say and how “OP” it is, or heck even better yet, try the exact same tactic they complain about against someone that doesn’t have the reaction speed of a dead potato and has at least half a brain. Yea, maybe I’m kinda harsh, but I find it even harsher that how you Thief whiners are still going on about this topic, not even considering any tips the Thief subforums gave you to counter this “burst” and still continue to whine about it and the worst part being, without ANY shame.
Yea, the “burst” might have a low skillfloor, but Killshot has an even lower skillfloor with SO much more reward AND a channeling ability on the same weaponset that can’t be just dodged with 1 dodge unlike “1hko” attacks like Killshot and Backstab.
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Look at it this way, people always have us on their minds and we have their brains all over us.
Did you by any chance spam Headshot x/P 4 too much? Heh… nice one.
let me brake it down for you (and i do not play BS spec)
Basilisk Venom (Elite Skill) > Assassin’s Signet > Cloak and Dagger > Steal > move behind the target > Backstab
By now if you cant avoid a backstab on a 1v1 you are doing it wrong man.
When I’m caught off guard and unprepared is one thing but if I see him coming, no way he will be able to backstab me even once during the fight.Pretty much this. There’s a lot of play in that build/combo, and so long as you keep your wits about you, you should be okay. There’s also some really interesting feints that can happen withb that build, where at the moment of cloaking, if you let them blow their invulns and dodge rolls early, you can take advantage of it. Everyone expects the damage to come ASAP, but if you delay it even a couple seconds players will blow their skills by over-reacting to it.
If you see this i’d love to hear you reply on the following. Also thanks for posting in here, really interesting to see a developers thoughts on thieves.
So something I think contributes to most of the hate is because in order for thieves to do that amount of damage, it requires a slightly low skill cap (as in it is not hard to get the hang of doing ) while counting it can require a slightly high skill cap (as in players need to know how to predict, dodging mechanics, timing, etc). This on top of you need to be actively paying attention to a thief in a battle (which can be hard on large scale battes in 8v8 or wvw).
Those two things I believe contribute to the hate they receive, and it wont stop imo. Everytime theres a new player, they’re going to jump into a battle and take 10K+ damage from a target. Now this new player lets say has 16k HP. In their eyes they just had someone take out more than half their hp “in seconds”, leading them to believe that thief is op followed by rage post on the forums.
SO thiefs can do that amount of damage and it is easy to counter, its a bit harder to counter for new players or in large scale battles, those are at least what I hear from people who get angry at thiefs. Do you agree or disagree? Do you think the thieves maybe should be slowed down in that dps build or perhaps make it easier to spot through animations what they are doing.
I agree with you that thieves aren’t insanely op in tPvP. However, they reiceve a lot of complains in spvp and WvW and I think should be looked at in some way.
If this is the case, Killshot should be nerfed as well. If you can’t see a Thief coming in from 900 range then surely you can’t see a Warrior Killshotting from 1500 range away, even in a zerg, right? People should complain more about Killshot than anything else in that scenario really.
1500 range, like 2x the damage of Backstab without being in danger, pierces through targets up till 1500 range (so no limits of how many people it pierces through) above all that; can be done every frickin’ 10 secs(8 secs if traited for even!).
This might be true and all what with all the QQ in these subforums from people with the reaction speed of a dead potato, but I’d love to see how these QQ’ers are going to talk themselves out of this one. Perhaps “oh, it’s an obvious 1,75 sec cast time so we can dodge out of it”, yea from 1500 range. If you can, then how can you NOT dodge a 0,5 sec precast CnD from a Thief running in like a bloodthirsty fothermuncher while having basilisk activated on him and trying to get within 900 range?
Oh I truly love it. It makes me more bloodthirsty for backstabs.
It just becomes annoying after a while knowing that Devs actually take it serious like Jack said and actually are considering nerfing us, while in actuality we’re just a pitiful annoying class, and that’s all we ever have going for us. We’re annoying.
Yep, totally agree. If only Thieves before us didn’t spoon feed so many of the Thief-whiners and actually learned how to counter the class by themselves. Heck there are STILL idiots arguing that stealth and being able to run away is OP.
Everything good about us has been nerfed to kitten. Stealth will always be a kittenty mechanic anyways due to positional requirement which your enemy controls, he controls his own back, and if done right, you’ll rarely if ever be able to BS him whilst losing out tons of time by unneccesary stalling gaining him most of his abilities off-cd easily this way while ALSO being able to damage us pretty kitten easily by AoE and chain AAs easily.
Just utilize shadowsteps together with a bit of stealth, the weaponset that grants you that is S/D, which I’d use for WvW. Stealth is pretty kitten useless in this game, it’s just for the stealth attacks you are able to do and traited stealth aspects like regen in stealth and cond cleansing and whatnot. ESPECIALLY in PvE it sucks. Funny how stealth is worse against AI than vs real players… I’d just use D/D (Spam #3 with cond damage gear) in PvE and not worry at all about stealth in PvE. The only reason you’d ever maybe would want to to utilize stealth is vs bosses, where single target damage is needed for some nice quick burst every 4 secs (Thank the unneeded nerf, was 3 secs of revealed before all this).
So I just fought someone that is actually SMART about fighting Thieves and honestly, it made me rethink stealth some more. The thing about stealth is, you either stack it, thus losing precious time as your enemy will have time to heal the damage you’ve done to him. OR you don’t stack it and have a kitten poor chance of actually getting your BS off, especially whilst taking heavy damage while not doing any damage yourself until you position correctly which your OPPONENT controls. You’re the one trying to get your opponents back, but your enemy is the one who controls it thus easily being able to prevent the damage you’re trying to going to do and dealing damage himself, without feedback, but damage is still damage.
This is why I just went for S/D to be able to immobilize my enemy right before entering stealth so I can at least get my enemies back and at least uitilize ONE of our keyabilities of which are stealth attacks (albeit annoying positional requirements except for the pistol and SB one which are alright but don’t compare or aren’t as useful).
Annoying to fight isn’t limited to Thief, stop being biased.
I hope to God you weren’t dumb enough to just say I’m biased against the Thief. Thief is my main, and anyone who spends much time on the forums should know that much.
I have an entire site dedicated to the Thief class.
Doesn’t mean you’re not biased towards your own class. I don’t find Thieves annoying to fight against at all, I actually like fighting them out of all classes. I find it way more annoying to fight Ele, Mesmer or Guardian than a Thief, by a longshot. Idk about you.
LOL, necro, “tons of dps”. That’s just too cute by half.
Know what’s even cuter? This right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4gXKLbrvMk
Learn your kitten bro before even trying to make fun of me.
Just wanted to say that this discussion is going to start to go off-topic. Stop picking the nitty gritties, seriously, this is a discussion about “Why idiots think Thief is OP” not about wether Thief is annoying or wether or not Necro having tons of DPS is right.
I want some serious answers please. No replies like: “cuz they’re stupid and need to l2p”, we (us Thief fanatics) know they are. I just want a constructive discussion why they’re “OP” supposedly.
Thank you.
Because their style is annoying to fight against. Whether or not it’s really OP, it certainly is often not fun for the person fighting them.
Whether it’s when the Thief bails every time they’re about to lose, or when they tear you open faster than you can react with a shadowstep burst combo (which Eles can also do).
I’ve fought fellow Thieves on my own Thief plenty of times and thought “Wow, that’s why everyone hates us.”
Every class is annoying to fight against in someway, wether you like it or not;
Warrior – …Let’s just skip this one…, mmkay?
Guardian – Extremely hard to kill, perma-protection and retaliation and very good stability uptime with good enough CC cleansing.
Engineer – Tons of CC, tons of conds, tons of AoE, whilst having a choice of being hard to kill.
Ranger – The pets are so kitten annoying, you can’t LoS the ranger since then the pet will just run after you and DPS you.
Mesmer – Tons of targetbreaks, clonespam, ridiculous amount of invuln uptime, Portal, can burst easily every 10-15 secs without much effort, Moa Elite as well.
Elementalist – Tons of AoE, tons of self heals, good amount of CC, one of the best cond cleanse in the game, tanky whilst still doing very good DPS.
Necromancer – Death Shroud and his Lich Form elite are so annoying, tons of DPS while still maintaining good surviveability due to Death Shroud. Also good amount of conds.
Yes, this is a rough sketch of how annoying every class can get, but I’m roughly trying to make the same point as you are to prove one, if that makes sense.
Annoying to fight isn’t limited to Thief, stop being biased.
I’d just go for Toughness tbh really. When you’re going to compare both, Toughness does more for you in the long run since every hp you regain is harder and takes longer to outdamage it off of you.
If I were you though, I’d say neither. Since you’re a Thief, you’re really good at disengaging and engaging by nature, as well as avoiding damage. I’d go for full glass unless you’re cond, which is when you DO need the sustain, but imho I think cond for Thieves sucks anyways. But that’s just me. I just basically go full zerker, without ANY defensive stats except from trait points. 20 SA and 20 Acro should be enough to pretty much avoid the majority of the damage long enough for you to kill at least 1 enemy whilst still being glass and dishing out extreme damage. But eh that’s just my playstyle.
It’s not guessing once you hit 1 chain of your autoattack.
Yeah, actually it is, momentarily knowing a rough idea of their location does not make you informed.
How? It tells you where they are the moment your AA chain changes. Not enough info? Not gonna tell you what to do afterwards after that though since I’m not going to spoon feed people on how to beat Thieves like most of my Thief buddies did, while they STILL didn’t put those counters into practice and are still whining about the Thief class itself.
likely … most likely … could be … most likely
guessing
It’s not guessing once you hit 1 chain of your autoattack. I’m not going to tell you either what to do after you see that your AA chain changes. Thieves themselves already told you how to counter most of what they do. Especially Dasorine did, which I don’t hold against him, and I understand it’s for the sake of arguing this topic.
Btw, are you kidding me? Eles and Engineers have the best dogging AoE in the game, so what if you don’t get feedback or not? The Thief either enters the AoE you laid around you, waits for it to go away and disengages his stealth by doing so, or he takes the AoE and Stealth attacks you.
Invisibility isn’t Invincibility, when the Thief enters stealth you try to outplay him. He then has a choice to make and act accordingly to what you did.
Thieves are severly gimpped (really Anet, this word is censored? :/) right now. The ONLY viable set in my eyes is D/P together with SB. Just because Offhand Pistol is so good, Backstab is the best stealth attack a Thief can have, and because Shadowshot makes it so that you can glue yourself to your enemy whilst still blinding and still dealing really good damage. And yes, HS + BP stealth CAN be countered, please don’t even try to argue about it. The only stealth that cannot be countered is Blinding Powder utility, which is on a 40 sec cd eitherways. Oh and the stealth on steal, which sucks in itself to begin with as there are many more important traits in that tree that are pretty much a must as a Thief.
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Probably because they’re the only class that can escape anyone they want, even zergs if they want to.
An ele can’t RTL away if he’s rooted, but a thief can infiltrator’s arrow out of roots and can hit random animals to stealth away.
Basically, thieves can reset fights. Yes, thieves can lose to several specs, especially confusion or retal ones, but their difference with other classes is that they can still harass and disengage at will from even fights that do not favor them, whereas a necromancer for example is kittened if a competent thief catches him, or a mesmer is screwed the moment a d/d or engineer arrives.
I fought a condi/confusion mesmer the other day in wvw.
We dueled like 4 times and I lost all 4. I almost killed him once but the confusion+bleeds was too much even for shadows embrace.
Thieves are not OP. They are just frustrating to zerging noobs who feel entitled to stomp roll anything they see because they are 100 and you are 1.
That’s dumb. Why would you choose to die when you can disengage, wait for him to engage something else/blow cooldowns, and then kill him?
There is no reason to die as a thief. Nobody can win all their 1v1 setups, but you can decide which fights to participate in.
Ego got you stomped. Good thieves don’t care about the ego boost of fair 1v1’s. They care about making it alive while everyone else is dead.
So what if they disengage? What about it? Is it really that big of a deal? Why is it?
I honestly don’t see why if ever it would be a bad thing for you neccesarily if a Thief disengages. He can avoid every fight he wants, and? What’s so “OP” about being able to disengage a fight? You lose nothing, he loses nothing (Except for losing time if you’re going to be stupid and chase a Thief as a non-Thief, even as an Ele).
+1 to everything Dasorine said aswell. In higher-tiers it becomes a game of who can outsmart the other when the Thief is in stealth, of which favors the Thief, which it should, as the Thief spent the rescoures to go into stealth.
The point is, he can kitten up and get out. Another class kittens up, they die. You use your kits poorly on engineer or miss a prybar? Goodbye.
You DO know that that’s not the reason why Thieves can escape so easily right? It’s not cuz “Oh, Thieves can make tons of mistakes so they have huge escapeability”, no…, every class can make huge mistakes. The reason why Thieves have escapeability is because they’re squishy. Or they take down a high priority target inside a group and get the heck away before he gets demoralized by the group.
Heck, would you guys go even so far as to say that Thieves were balanced from the start? I would. Maybe not balanced completely, but pretty much all nerfs to the Thief since official release are unjustified imo and the only reason Anet did them is because they don’t want people leaving the game.
Probably because they’re the only class that can escape anyone they want, even zergs if they want to.
An ele can’t RTL away if he’s rooted, but a thief can infiltrator’s arrow out of roots and can hit random animals to stealth away.
Basically, thieves can reset fights. Yes, thieves can lose to several specs, especially confusion or retal ones, but their difference with other classes is that they can still harass and disengage at will from even fights that do not favor them, whereas a necromancer for example is kittened if a competent thief catches him, or a mesmer is screwed the moment a d/d or engineer arrives.
I fought a condi/confusion mesmer the other day in wvw.
We dueled like 4 times and I lost all 4. I almost killed him once but the confusion+bleeds was too much even for shadows embrace.
Thieves are not OP. They are just frustrating to zerging noobs who feel entitled to stomp roll anything they see because they are 100 and you are 1.
That’s dumb. Why would you choose to die when you can disengage, wait for him to engage something else/blow cooldowns, and then kill him?
There is no reason to die as a thief. Nobody can win all their 1v1 setups, but you can decide which fights to participate in.
Ego got you stomped. Good thieves don’t care about the ego boost of fair 1v1’s. They care about making it alive while everyone else is dead.
So what if they disengage? What about it? Is it really that big of a deal? Why is it?
I honestly don’t see why if ever it would be a bad thing for you neccesarily if a Thief disengages. He can avoid every fight he wants, and? What’s so “OP” about being able to disengage a fight? You lose nothing, he loses nothing (Except for losing time if you’re going to be stupid and chase a Thief as a non-Thief, even as an Ele).
+1 to everything Dasorine said aswell. In higher-tiers it becomes a game of who can outsmart the other when the Thief is in stealth, of which favors the Thief, which it should, as the Thief spent the rescoures to go into stealth.
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I want some serious answers please. No replies like: “cuz they’re stupid and need to l2p”, we (us Thief fanatics) know they are. I just want a constructive discussion why they’re “OP” supposedly.
Thank you.