Guild Wars 2

nexxe.7081:

Habanero.9384:

Baxuz.1943:

Hey guys. I’m the OP of the first and currently largest thread on camera-related issues: Camera control issues – a documented list and have been following the issue since BWE1.

First of all, thanks Jon for the upfront reply, I appreciate it greatly that you view it as an issue which needs addresing.
For the community: Resorting to personal attacks on Jon is higly unnecessary and counter-productive. Also, tellling him that you know how the game works better than the dev team is horribly arrogant. The fact is that changing the horizontal FoV without changing the aspect ratio does lead to distortion. The fact is also that changing the FoV would lead to some issues, be it performance or something else, otherwise, we would have seen it changed a while ago.

Which leads me to the second point, which is my personal view on the subject.

1) performance suffers greatly because of how things are built and view distances

2) art suffers because of texture tiling, LOD problems and just general stretching from the fisheye effect.

…we are not just limiting it for technical reasons, there are also gameplay implications that we are taking into account that we believe are a core part of the game…

If there was a single reason we might think about looking for a workaround, but because it relates to core issues for 3 of our major departments this is not an easy problem and will remain that way for the foreseeable future.

What this info tells us, combined with the info we have so far (FoV hacks, boss fights, culling, optimization, etc.), is that sadly the GW2 engine is not flexible enough compared to other engines (UT3, Source…) to allow these changes without adding issues, some of which are present even in the current state of the game (culling, texture corruption, LoD).

The fact that the game is not well optimized, and that there is only talk about fixing the mouse smoothing, and not completely remove it, while also taking into account that Jon said that it’s not an easy problem and it’s related to core issues just reinforces my estimation that it’s all very hard-coded with very little engine flexibilty. If I am to speak my mind, I’d say that it’s bad coding, probably due to time/resource constraints.

What does that mean for me personally?
In my topic I’ve talked about a number of points, which all seem to be mutually dependant:

1. Input Lag
2. Negative Acceleration
3. Smoothing
4. Easing
5. Camera behaviour
6. FoV

The first three points are related to game performance, which is not optimized for a wide range of not-high-end machines. The second two points are developer decisions which are not being considered to be completely removed in the forseeable future. The camera behaviour is being addressed and hopefully it will be fixed. The FoV is also a developer decision, which I have discussed previously.

What this sadly means for me, that in the forseeable future, I will not be playing this game.

I share your view and experienced most of the mentioned issues in your post myself.
Followed the game since Comicom 2010, participated in every BWE/stresstest and played since headstart…
I came to the same conclusion; that technical limitations, questionable coding and some rock solid design decisions (I don’t like) are what made changes which will suffice to make the game playable (aka fun) for me very very unlikely…

Just like you I stopped playing.
I even uninstalled the game a couple of days ago because of too many issues and disappointments. Honestly, I gave up on the game.

So sad.

I haven’t given up yet, but this response by a dev is so disappointing. I had hope they would fix this, and i’m not so sure they will fix the camera related issues now. We’ll probably get another response telling us it’s not possible.

I will look into forums from time to time.
Maybe I will re-install and play again some time in the far future.

Respect!

FluffyDoe.7539:

Liberis.9573:

I don’t understand all these posts saying that the FOV is fine because “it doesn’t affect me” or “I haven’t noticed it”. Just because an issue doesn’t affect you, does not mean that the issue does not exist.

There are already 3rd party hacks that allow you to change the fov, which has alleviated the nausea issue for some people (without performance issues), so I don’t quite understand ArenaNet’s reasoning here.

Also, what about triple-monitor setups and manually resizing the game in windowed-mode?

It’s as if people don’t read the Dev’s comment properly at all here in the forums. John clearly said that the key reason why they haven’t considered increasing the FOV is because of lag, and people can read it as an excuse or what-not… but “LAG” is the bottom line.

If you read between the lines in all their performance post, you can tell that they’re having trouble optimizing the game; it’s not that they don’t want to give players FOV, it’s because their technology is ‘incapable’ of doing so. While you may take that as an excuse to deny the existence of this issue, it’s clearly just the reality of things when it comes down to it; you don’t know for sure why they don’t add FOV, because they’ll never just say “we are not implementing FOV because it will make our game lag”. This is what happens when game developers forget how to simply “tell the public the simple truth”. Comparing the game to HL or Quake is simply a poor response – that has clearly made people think that Anet is making excuses rather than stating facts.

I trust what they say, but it’s not like I have a choice other than to debate on these forums.

Yes. That’s pretty much how it is.
This games performes very poorly and is not fit for huge numbers of players as anyone can clearly see with WvW.
Optimization was announced since BWE1. Well…
Looks like we can’t have single-player-beauty with decent MMO-performance.
(a reminder the “MM” in MMO stands for MASSIVE-Multiplayer)

I wish you all the best!
Have an ale!

Baxuz.1943:

Hey guys. I’m the OP of the first and currently largest thread on camera-related issues: Camera control issues – a documented list and have been following the issue since BWE1.

First of all, thanks Jon for the upfront reply, I appreciate it greatly that you view it as an issue which needs addresing.
For the community: Resorting to personal attacks on Jon is higly unnecessary and counter-productive. Also, tellling him that you know how the game works better than the dev team is horribly arrogant. The fact is that changing the horizontal FoV without changing the aspect ratio does lead to distortion. The fact is also that changing the FoV would lead to some issues, be it performance or something else, otherwise, we would have seen it changed a while ago.

Which leads me to the second point, which is my personal view on the subject.

1) performance suffers greatly because of how things are built and view distances

2) art suffers because of texture tiling, LOD problems and just general stretching from the fisheye effect.

…we are not just limiting it for technical reasons, there are also gameplay implications that we are taking into account that we believe are a core part of the game…

If there was a single reason we might think about looking for a workaround, but because it relates to core issues for 3 of our major departments this is not an easy problem and will remain that way for the foreseeable future.

What this info tells us, combined with the info we have so far (FoV hacks, boss fights, culling, optimization, etc.), is that sadly the GW2 engine is not flexible enough compared to other engines (UT3, Source…) to allow these changes without adding issues, some of which are present even in the current state of the game (culling, texture corruption, LoD).

The fact that the game is not well optimized, and that there is only talk about fixing the mouse smoothing, and not completely remove it, while also taking into account that Jon said that it’s not an easy problem and it’s related to core issues just reinforces my estimation that it’s all very hard-coded with very little engine flexibilty. If I am to speak my mind, I’d say that it’s bad coding, probably due to time/resource constraints.

What does that mean for me personally?
In my topic I’ve talked about a number of points, which all seem to be mutually dependant:

1. Input Lag
2. Negative Acceleration
3. Smoothing
4. Easing
5. Camera behaviour
6. FoV

The first three points are related to game performance, which is not optimized for a wide range of not-high-end machines. The second two points are developer decisions which are not being considered to be completely removed in the forseeable future. The camera behaviour is being addressed and hopefully it will be fixed. The FoV is also a developer decision, which I have discussed previously.

What this sadly means for me, that in the forseeable future, I will not be playing this game.

I share your view and experienced most of the mentioned issues in your post myself.
Followed the game since Comicom 2010, participated in every BWE/stresstest and played since headstart…
I came to the same conclusion; that technical limitations, questionable coding and some rock solid design decisions (I don’t like) are what made changes which will suffice to make the game playable (aka fun) for me very very unlikely…

Just like you I stopped playing.
I even uninstalled the game a couple of days ago because of too many issues and disappointments. Honestly, I gave up on the game.

So sad.

ChairGraveyard.2967:

It’s not a limitation in the game engine, I know that for a fact. It changes your FOV just fine during boss battles, when changing the aspect ratio, and the illicit FOV camera tool works without any problems from all reports and videos. So sorry but it’s simply a variable in the game’s memory that can easily be attached by a slider except that for some reason it’s acceptable for only a small portion of the player base to have a playable FOV while the rest of us plebes suffer with the garbage FOV in the game currently.

Also, trying to claim it’s impossible to change the FOV in a modern 3D engine is absurd. No triple A developer worth anything would ever have some sort of fixed FOV scheme and it’s proven that’s not even the case in the game right now, so I think we should just lay that whole “argument” to rest (and I have to use that term loosely since in this case the “argument” consists of only verified false information).

@ChairGraveyard (quoting not working again)
maybe its not a problem for a certain amount of players like in a boss fight or some other circumstances but more an issue of scale.
I’m pretty sure Jon didn’t meant client performance but more server load and data transport. Something along these areas.

just guessing though, but like I mentioned: it fits ANets schema of behaviour since BWE1.
And optimization is still an issue too (also since BWE1).
The game performs very poorly even on decent hardware.

CaptainFabulous.8410:

Alur.7510:

The biggest nail in the coffin on the whole “FoV is detrimental to gameplay or performance” contention is the fact that myself and many others use triple monitors to obtain an enormous FoV with almost no negative impacts to game experience.
Why would it then not be possible to increase FoV for single screen users with less powerful graphics cards and just have them decrease shaders or textures if performance is that much of a concern, makes no sense.

I saw this many times, and I can’t have the same experience as other friends of mine cause I don’t have 3 monitors? PLEASE come on.

Because making the screen wider by adding more monitors or shrinking the window is not the same as squeezing more information into a fixed viewport.

And it’s the inability to understand this that makes it clear people who are calling Jon a liar really do NOT understand anything about FoV despite what Naminator thinks.

Jon pretty much said that the game engine can’t handle a greater FoV.
I can understand that he hesitates to plainly admit that, but that’s pretty much how it is.
“We cannot change it because we cannot change it…”

I followed this topic since BWE1 (and suffered) and with all regard to Arenanet’s behaviour – limitations of the game engine are the only reasonable explanation to this issue.

So regardless how much rage they will receive from the playerbase, this won’t probably change during this millenium.

PS. a couple of players with 3 monitors or doing some tricks to enhance FoV didn’t hurt performance that much as opposed to an option which will be used by thousands.

Yes, you’re right Jeffrey,
I apologize.

@Jeffrey
Thanks, that will help the others playing that step. (I completed it).

@Garenthal + @PhoenixDown
sure, it’s all my fault as I had similiar problems with guardian, ranger, warrior,
engi, thief in nearly every ps.
yeah dodging is endless survival and picking targets is peace of cake
with groups spawning right on top of you (as happened with 1. wave and
near the bandit’s hideout). los is awesome to use if already surrounded.
Yes sure, mates I cannot play and have to learn the GW-way of fighting
aka running in circles and dodging all the time dealing awesome damage while doing it.

I play since BWE1 and I’m a headstarter. I’m a fast learner and had never problems
in any game I played. (and not much in the GW2-open world)

@Lyuben
No. Mesmer is not bad at all just very different playstyle and I like it.
I had no problems in DE events and killing groups in the field with mesmer.

played staff + sword+focus most of the time (some GS).
survivability is quite good with that set.
I died the first time in this level 3 ps with my level 10 mesmer

>>>
My problems lies with some game-design mostly the way npc spawn –
several at a time and instantly attacking. there is no time to regenerate between
fights and to prepare. esp. in caves and close quarters it’s a pita.
( Don’t let me get started on camera issues and animation-locks )

on one occasion with my guardian – right after a cutscene – I found her downed
and surrounded by 4+ enemies. working as intended I guess.

@all
thanks for trying to help me. As I indeed struggle with my other toons
in ps too, I will refrain from doing ps for a while.

no problem. I start a new job on thursday so I will take a break from the game.
played to much anyway.

have an ale!

maybe it’s not my game but I don’t think it’s a l2p issue here.
I have played quite a lot of other MMOs and didn’t encounter such problems in any of them. I played all classes and never had problems with any of them.
in this game I experienced the same situation with every profession I played.
-> insane spawns
-> groups/waves of attackers in short succession.
-> downscaled to underlevel
-> no room for error, no time to regenerate.
-> ps should be designed for single play and not require a team to succeed.
(I did succeed finally but it was no fun at all)
-> why the chore in a personal story quest??
-> the challenges out in the game world are more controllable than this.

LOS is impossible if you are already surrounded and are attacked by melee and ranged at the same time. the spawns attacked instantly.
I dodged and used all of my abilities (there are quite some at level 10) to no avail.
Only two dodges and cooldowns are quite restrictive when you get attacked
by spawns after spawns and waves of groups.
and btw. why should it be that hard anyway? its level three!!
If I had played it at level three I wouldn’t even had weapon swap!

respect!

This is already an issue known since BWE1. There were a lot of
hot topics in the beta forums in regard to this too!

I’m wondering why this made it into release.

It’s an issue ArenaNet knows of since BWE1

So how are our changes to get this fixed??

as it was already a hot topic during BWE1 and throughout all betas,
So ArenaNet knows this a long time…
I’ve not much confidence left that this will get changed soon.
And there are a lot of other pressing issues too.

I’ll second that. without downscaling (for ps only) I would gain control
again over the difficulty I like to face in my personal story.
After all it’s my story, so no harm done to anybody else.

If I want to spoil my challenges in my personal story let me do it.

This will be a thousand times better than getting downscaled into oblivion
and kittened over and over by groups/waves of npcs and dieing ’til
I have to fight naked.

Please!

I’m fed up with your insane quest design of nearly every ps quest I experienced.
this is a human mesmer, noble.
In the first!! story quest with the assault after the party with Faren
I got instantly swarmed, attacked and downed by at least 5 bandits. After that,
I had to fight mixed groups of bandits with melee+ranged combat combined
and couple of times got swarmed by spawns and were instantly surrounded.
over and over. This is insane for a first!! quest with level 3!!!
I started the quest with already level 10 and got downscaled to level 3 (this is ok).
But how am I supposed to fight vs. groups of level 3+ npcs with spawns
out of thin air and no preparation time?? There is no room for any error at all.
just hesitate a second -> dead. no pause between fights bc of spawn rates.

I’m soo sick of this quest design! This is no fun but only annoying & frustrating!
I experienced the same kitten with all my characters (ranger, engineer, guardian,
warrior, necro, thief) and now mesmer. Races are Asura, Sylvari and human.
I didn’t played any ps above level 11 because of that.

I feel like you punish players from the very start. I felt griefed by your quest design.
(down state? I hate it already! felt helpless with no control over my character)
the sluggish controls and awful camera on top of that.
controling the character in this game is a pain.

Why should I continue to play your game??
Please tell me!

/ragequit

I’m already halfway to quit playing just because of the issues with camera

Movement controls (WASD) are a pita too. the character didn’t react in a linear way
to key presses which makes control movement just a pain. often times there is
no reaction at all and I have to press the key again to get my toon moving. I guess it’s
because some kind of animation-lock-out or something. sometimes my character
doesn’t move at all and I have to release key and press again to get it to move.
so annoying.

“normal” behaviour in this game is like that:
press a key – wait 1/2 second – character starts to move.
release key – character still moves for 1/2 second before stopping.
and this without any lag!

precise movement is impossible with that kind of behaviour!!

Jumping puzzles and vistas are a pain. I didn’t bother with them anymore.

Overall moving & fighting feels very sluggish, slow and often time unresponsive.
It’s just plain annoying and no fun at all.

This already had poisoned my gameplay.
I only login occasionally to test if there were changes made in that regard.
In the current state, the game is unplayable for me.

Because of a plethora of more pressing issues,
I have not much hope that this will get fixed soon.

so sad.

I’m already halfway to quit playing just because of the issues with camera

Movement controls (WASD) are a pita too. the character didn’t react in a linear way
to key presses which makes control movement just a pain. often times there is
no reaction at all and I have to press the key again to get my toon moving. I guess it’s
because some kind of animation-lock-out or something. sometimes my character
doesn’t move at all and I have to release key and press again to get it to move.
so annoying.

“normal” behaviour in this game is like that:
press a key – wait 1/2 second – character starts to move.
release key – character still moves for 1/2 second before stopping.
and this without any lag!

precise movement is impossible with that kind of behaviour!!

Jumping puzzles and vistas are a pain. I didn’t bother with them anymore.

Overall moving & fighting feels very sluggish, slow and often time unresponsive.
It’s just plain annoying and no fun at all.

This already had poisoned my gameplay.
I only login occasionally to test if there were changes made in that regard.
In the current state, the game is unplayable for me.

Because of a plethora of more pressing issues,
I have not much hope that this will get fixed soon.

so sad.

I’m already halfway to quit playing just because of the issues with camera

Movement controls (WASD) are a pita too. the character didn’t react in a linear way
to key presses which makes control movement just a pain. often times there is
no reaction at all and I have to press the key again to get my toon moving. I guess it’s
because some kind of animation-lock-out or something. sometimes my character
doesn’t move at all and I have to release key and press again to get it to move.
so annoying.

Jumping puzzles and vistas are a pain. I didn’t bother with them anymore.

Overall moving & fighting feels very sluggish, slow and often time unresponsive.
It’s just plain annoying and no fun at all.

This already had poisoned my gameplay and I just login occasionally to test if there
were changes made in that regard.
In the current state, the game is unplayable for me.

Because of a plethora of more pressing issues, I have not much hope left,
that this will get fixed.

so sad.