Guild Wars 2

Day 3 of the Siege of Thorns. Keep at ‘em, they’re weakening!

No loyal veteran customer base should be reduced to groveling for a fair deal. That’s what’s happening here. Instead of just giving us the two slots with standard, just like they did for EoTN, they have everyone begging for just one. Then you have the absolute victims who are doing anything they can to justify their enjoyment of the beating.

Consumerist Stockholm Syndrome.

This has gone from a day that should have been wondrous, to yet another of the days when aNet made everyone flinch. I wonder is this to be the norm from here on, every time aNet has an upcoming announcement, instead of excitement we feel a twinge of shadow pain at the possibility of them shanking us…Again?

I think someone earlier almost nailed it, but hey, name’s Hammer, let me smack it down. We are faced with a choice ultimately, most of we veterans.
1) Pay $50 for an expansion to a game we already own that contains a copy of the game we already own but which can’t be separated that we might use it as a mule account or give it to a friend to gain a new GW customer…We’ll also need to pay another $10 for a slot for the new class which is an intrinsic part of that expansion. etc.

2)Fallout 4.

Did you ever hear that adage that the simplest choice is often the best? Now apply that to those 2 choices. Which looks simpler on paper?

This is the problem aNet. You’re offering people who are intelligent and discerning, and we must be both of those things right aNet? We’ve mastered your rulesets for nearly 10 years, forced you to “Balance” and nerf over and over for all that time by out smarting you… You offer us the choice between spending money on your expansion which offers us less by far than anything before, and just not giving you anything more, because stuff like F-A-L-L-O-U-T-4!!!!!!11111ONEONE! is coming?

“Do you take us for fools, sah?”

Speaking for myself, I’ve given you thousands. Accounts, slots in gw1 and 2, lots of gems, etc… Do not mistake my love of your game for blind stupidity or me for a cash cow to be milked mercilessly. There are other worlds than these.. ;-)

I put about 15000 hours into GW1. I have 2 accounts and my wife has one.

I’ve out about 2.8-3k into GW2 so far, and I can honestly say that I really don’t know anymore why I log in to do the dailies, I just do. Nostalgia-driven perhaps, perhaps one of those poor buggers who hangs on to the last out of hope that they might start doing the right thing by us again.
Unfortunately, I just don’t feel like there’s much hope left. More and more microtransactions, more and more bugs, less and less real content. Now this. Freebies for newbies and a good jolly rogering for people like me who’ve paid and paid and paid and paid….
3xProphecies 100aud/ea
3xFactions 100aud/ea
3xNightfall 100aud/ea
3x EotN 50aud/ea
3x GW2 pre-order (Whatever that cost)
3×..........Not happening. Not any more.

~because~

*Obvious ignoring of day 1 bugs while anything that affects gem sales gets priority “NUMERO UNO MATE BLOODY OATH DON’T YOU WORRY!” etc. etc. etc. etc.

Anet hasn’t dropped the ball.

There is no ball.

Oh.. Wait. There is a ball, but you only get it if you don’t have it. If you have the ball, they’ll sell you a new addition for it, as well as a new ball which they’ll take off you for having the temerity to link the new balls flashy bit to the old ball, and they’ll also take 5 pieces of the new ball off you too. Won’t be needing THOSE.

Or something.

I don’t think they even know what they’re doing anymore.

Cube: aNet

Rhonin Greymane.8752:

A simple point people don’t seem to understand is that the core game inclusion isn’t influencing the price in any way… it’s just something they threw in so new players that missed the previous sales aren’t stuck behind a huge paywall. They just got lucky to get the game at a lower price than others(free of charge in this case) the same way people got it for 75% less during the recent sales but nobody raised any pitchforks then even though they should have, according to the logic the complaining follows. The expansion itself costs 50$, you’d be paying that regardless of core game inclusion. Nobody is forcing you to pay extra for something you already have. Think of it as a 100% discount product you don’t have to put in your basket separately.
As for the pricing itself, $40 to $50 is just standard pricing for MMO expansions. And saying there’s not enough content to justify the price isn’t valid because we don’t know how much content there actually is. Which is where the magic of pre-purchasing kicks in… you don’t have to buy it now if you don’t feel you know enough. Pre-purchasing is an optional gesture of faith from the consumers. The game didn’t release yet. Anet isn’t demanding that we pay for the game now and then releasing it in a week or two from now. The game is several months from being ready. In fact, Anet isn’t demanding anything and people are hatemongering for no real reason. The game isn’t going live with just the things that were revealed up until now, and I don’t know why people are acting like it is. There’s still months of reveals ahead of us. Just stop with the pointless, and frankly baseless anger and hatred.

A re-worded but still broken facsimile of the same tired argument. You’re in the minority that share that opinion. Stockholmers I like to call them.
Don’t tell us how to feel about getting a rough trade for our investment of time and money, and possibly even emotion for the realm. In return I won’t tell you to seek treatment to have your tongue removed from aNets lower cleavage.
Everyone will be that little bit happier.

lukejoe.1592:

Blanche Neige.7241:

To clarify: $50 is the price of the expansion. We included the core game as a free bonus to make it easier for new players to get into it.

In marketing, what you say is irrelevant.

What matters is what potential customers perceive from what you said.

And clearly, people perceive that they are buying the core game a second time when they buy HoT. You have 3000+ messages posted in the last 24 hours or so in this thread that proves it.

You may say the contrary as much as you want. Your message is not going to pass through.

If you ( meaning Anet) don’t modify your positions, it may hurt you (meaning Anet) a lot in the long term.

Again, gotta chime in here. It’s more than perception.

They did NOT set a price tag and then say, “Oh you know what would be nice…”

That never happened.

They considered potential cash flows from offering the TWO products bundled and unbundled and chose bundled based on math.

If you “Perceive” that you are buying the original game all over again, it’s because, you are! You may not be paying full price for it, but I can assure you, you are paying something to the pot to make it cheaper for new players well maintaining Anet’s total revenue goal.

Or at least that was how it was supposed to work out, but Anet never did seem to get beyond the spreadsheet when making this call…

AND WE CAN ALL LEARN FROM THEIR MISTAKE!

No veteran player should have to “Chip in” to float new players a free copy of vanilla. Didn’t happen with EoTN, shouldn’t happen here.
No veteran player should have to pay retroactively for content “Freely” given between launch and HoT.
No new Player should have to pay retroactively for prior content that they’ll never see without paying for it again. (Living story)
Nobody buying any expansion ever should then have to pay again be it in real money, or time investment to grind for gold>gems>slot.

Would you buy a new car whose seats were a paid optional extra?

briggah.7910:

Hammersmash Ureface.2650:

I think you’re missing it entirely. My point is that when people like me, who have paid thousands of dollars to these guys HAPPILY and would continue to do so happily start getting up and getting jacked, it says something.
When your most loyal fans start saying “Too much!” then you have a problem.
Also, I call BS on your blast statement. :P

So you spent thousands of dollars and can’t cough up another 50? LOL should have maybe spend hundreds instead.

Did you miss all the “x3”
$150. And then 800 gems x3 for the slots.

It all adds up. I didn’t need to give them an extra 30 bucks so we could play EoTN without having to delete a character to make a new one, nor should I have to now. I’m a dedicated and loyal customer as are the many others who are in a similar boat. But you know how it goes, they have our money, they will do as they please. Once upon a time though, it pleased them to please us. Fancy a world like that eh..

Knighthonor.4061:

Hammersmash Ureface.2650:

The Siege of Thorns continues. What day is it now? 4th? 5th? Don’t let up. They’re going to send a kitten out sooner or later..

That June 23rd trait patch drama will overshadow all this Price drama. Watch…

Straw that broke the camels back?

“Popcorn pre-purchase now available!” (*Box not included on subsequent purchases)

Don’t laugh at the rock. The rock is no laughing matter. aNet themselves value that rock more than they value GW2. Think about it. GW2 is now effectively free, the rock however costs somewhere in the vicinity of 5 bucks.
aNet put more value on a rock than they put on their own game.

mrstealth.6701:

Hammersmash Ureface.2650:

Grav.3568:

AnClar.1304:

While I’m unhappy about the marketing surrounding HoT, I think peeps saying a lack of response from ANet for 3 days equates to ANet doesn’t care is, I think, a bit unrealistic.

Given Anet’s continuing inability to address issues from two years ago, are you really that surprised?

Yep. As I said, it took them 7 years to give us what they said would take 1-2. I’d say, check back in about, oh, a month, 3 perhaps.. A year? It certainly pays not to count with aNets clock…

When did they ever say it would be 1-2 years?

And GW2 didn’t take 7 years, it was 5. They announced it in spring 2007, which was the same time they began work on it. It was released just over 5 years later. And 5 years is a pretty normal time for MMO developement.

As unhappy as I am with the current situation, I’m not going to start spouting off totally inaccurate information to bash them. Use facts for that.

Ok you got me. I was mostly right. You were right about the announcement date, however, GW1 was released in 2005. We waited 7 years for GW2. There was, as I remember plenty of talk about a sequel before the official announcement.
My point still stands that you can’t expect miracles 3 years after release when it took 7 years from GW1 release to release GW2, on almost the exact same engine..

I think you’re missing it entirely. My point is that when people like me, who have paid thousands of dollars to these guys HAPPILY and would continue to do so happily start getting up and getting jacked, it says something.
When your most loyal fans start saying “Too much!” then you have a problem.
Also, I call BS on your blast statement. :P

Thread after thread after thread.. It hurts to watch this go down but on the upside, GT7 is coming. Not buying the exp will give me more time to drive. \m/

Scenario #whatever.

Old day 1 GW1 player who got GWAMM but then was called away from ever buying GW2 comes back in aw, I dunno, let’s call it the last 30 days or so. Because they saw all the hype about the exp and it re-ignited their fire for the realm…

Anyway..

They buy a GW2 account, because the FAQ said they had to have it to get the EXP and they link their GW1 account to it, because hey, HoM right? They then notice they’re a bit short on slots and bank space, they were after all a pretty leet GW1 player, they’re not new to this rodeo, just abridged…
SO.
The ninja FAQ thing, the tie-in, they realize they have to lose the account with GWAMM, with the extras, everything.

EVERYTHING

Tell me again that it’s fair. Tell me again that it’s the price they pay. I know that it’s a bit of a scenario, but it’s a big world. There’s a lot of players. Variables.

I guarantee this will or has already happened, probably even to old guildies of mine if I’m not wrong…Bugger. Hadn’t even thought of that.

Now what I’d like to see explained without a whole lot of blatant bs, is how people keep trotting out that tired old chestnut about how if we’re a vet, then we’ve had opportunity to content that newbs won’t get, rada rada rada….And that justifies us paying the same for a copy of the exp without a slot, while it also justifies a newb getting a copy of vanilla for free. A game all vets be it a week or a beta vet paid for.
So getting to it, if we’re paying retroactively for the content they’ve given us in the meantime (It doesn’t, the gem store paid for that, and the exp’s creation), but the new player is paying for the copy of gw2 vanilla…
That doesn’t work. No business model without a contract binding the end buyer into such a scheme requires a person to pay retroactively for content. Furthermore, newbs do not get charged retroactively for content they’ll never see, content that keeps getting trotted out as if we still owe for it.
It also doesn’t work because a new player should not get for free a copy of a vanilla game that we paid good money for. I see no sign of gw2 vanilla going f2p, so there is a fiscal component there. Obviously.

So who’s paying for what? Are we all paying retroactively for content some will never see, or are we all floating the newbs a free copy of gw2?

No matter how you look at it, the perspective that vets owe a single bloody thing for past content is farcical, farcical like it is to expect a new player to pay for it also and never see it. Just as farcical as expecting veteran players to float anonymous new players a copy of gw2, “Just to help get them into a game”. If I was going to float anyone a copy of vanilla, the one we should be able to pare off of the exp; the “Free copy” that aNet claims exists, but disappears if you activate HoT on an old account, I’d give it to someone I actually know.
Dig?

Alexxander.8306:

Hammersmash Ureface.2650:

Day 3 of the Siege of Thorns. Keep at ‘em, they’re weakening!

No loyal veteran customer base should be reduced to groveling for a fair deal. That’s what’s happening here. Instead of just giving us the two slots with standard, just like they did for EoTN, they have everyone begging for just one. Then you have the absolute victims who are doing anything they can to justify their enjoyment of the beating.

Consumerist Stockholm Syndrome.

Then there are the users like me who will happily give the money to Anets competition. Anet love ultimatums, as do I in cases like this, for consumers that will flee to the other great mmos coming out there will be lots of developers happy to take Anets business.

I think they are gravely misjudging the pulling power of Fallout and FF….At the very least..Not MMO’s but amazing franchises with new stuff coming that costs money. The same money they could choose to spend on HoT, but might not because those other franchises, oooooh….

mrstealth.6701:

Hammersmash Ureface.2650:

mrstealth.6701:

Hammersmash Ureface.2650:

Grav.3568:

AnClar.1304:

While I’m unhappy about the marketing surrounding HoT, I think peeps saying a lack of response from ANet for 3 days equates to ANet doesn’t care is, I think, a bit unrealistic.

Given Anet’s continuing inability to address issues from two years ago, are you really that surprised?

Yep. As I said, it took them 7 years to give us what they said would take 1-2. I’d say, check back in about, oh, a month, 3 perhaps.. A year? It certainly pays not to count with aNets clock…

When did they ever say it would be 1-2 years?

And GW2 didn’t take 7 years, it was 5. They announced it in spring 2007, which was the same time they began work on it. It was released just over 5 years later. And 5 years is a pretty normal time for MMO developement.

As unhappy as I am with the current situation, I’m not going to start spouting off totally inaccurate information to bash them. Use facts for that.

Ok you got me. I was mostly right. You were right about the announcement date, however, GW1 was released in 2005. We waited 7 years for GW2. There was, as I remember plenty of talk about a sequel before the official announcement.
My point still stand that you can’t expect miracles 3 years after release when it took 7 years from GW1 release to release GW2, on almost the exact same engine..

I think it’s obvious that GW2 is a pretty thorough overhaul of that old engine. There are a lot of things possible in it, that were not in GW1’s engine. Looking at other game engines, there is a lot of iteration of the same bases as they shift from v1 to v2, etc.

I think a good example would be Oblivion and Morrowind from the Elder Scrolls series. The games have quite different engines, even though both are the Gamebryo engine. They are just different iterations/versions of the same engine, with very different technical capabilities.

Back to Guild Wars 2.

HoT is still GW2, and isn’t bringing a new engine. There are, as Anet has pointed out already, some technical advancements made in the expansion’s content. But it is still running on the same game client. These are the same types of new tech that we’ve already seen added to to the core game since release. I’m sure anyone that played wvw back in 2012 remembers culling.

And doesn’t it suck the very most, that it’s all going to go largely to waste or be received sourly by many of us who stuck by them for this ten years If they can’t just start talking to us and find resolution in a manner befitting.. Businesslike, where all parties, us and them, come away feeling slightly stung, but mostly not.

Day 4 of the Siege of Thorns eh..

Hi guys and dolls! Did I miss anything. A bunch of people telling us to lay off aNet, the poor buggers need the money and I’ll be giving them my money no matter what I say?

I got a grand in my cupboard that says I won’t touch HoT until this debacle is resolved in a manner I find acceptable. It’s my money. Like they keep saying to anyone who bought gems, “No gun at my head!” kitten straight.

Fix or Fallout. That’s how I see it.

Otokomae.9356:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3a4ktf/dont_prepurchase_heart_of_thorns/

Breezed right past 3,000 upvotes almost 12 hours ago… is this seriously going to finish as the most upvoted GW2 subreddit of all time?

It was already the most upvoted in the sub at about this time yesterday. It’s going to take something pretty astounding for it to get topped in a hurry. They made boo-boo big time. Fumble of the year.

I feel like a prophet. Really I do. I’ve maintained all along that this was nothing more than good marketing with a dash of psychology. Take away what we used to get, give us nothing. End result, community begs for bare minimum. I’ve said it numerous times.
Now here’s the dedicated thread…
What’s worse than being played? Knowing you’re being played and playing anyway.

Unfortunately though, this is one of those situations you see in politics where the underdog is offered a choice between stupidity and being called unpatriotic…The only choice is the wrong one.

Now give us our kitten slot. It’ll still taste like exploitation to us, but at least you’ll save some face…And about that mini weasel in the anet cap.. Make it happen. Where’s my coffee?

So after all this and a taste of salvation yesterday, it turns out that it’s not a vets bonus. It’s a pre-purchase bonus. 6 days of hellfire in the forums and aNet couldn’t even make a proper concession that didn’t go entirely in their favour. Not even a little one.

Not much to say really.

The Siege of Thorns continues. What day is it now? 4th? 5th? Don’t let up. They’re going to send a kitten out sooner or later..

Agreed. Can someone just delete all the other threads and pin this? That would be great.

jacobocaj.7698:

snip
In short, one can’t help but worry that ANET has been being duplicitous for months if not years, and that they don’t seem to care about you much once they have your money.

As I mentioned many posts ago on this thread, we stood on the steps of the Great Temple Of Balthazar when they first introduced the cash store in GW1 and mused on how the stuff was hella overpriced, and that it was setting a dangerous precedent. Even then we were some of us adults, and not stupid or unwise to the ways of marketing and the psychology therein, especially in regard to setting dangerous financial precedents… Back then, the fanboys called us fools. The same fanboys who’re calling us all fools now.
They’re probably right in one aspect. We still support a company who gave us 2 slots free with the standard exp for GW1, but beg to be given one slot in an exp for GW2 that costs the same sort of money, whilst giving new players a copy of core for free..

I remember when they announced the pre-order for Eye of the North, and gave anyone who bought it free copies of the first 3 games…

Oops. That never happened.

Do you know what else never happened? The forums were never full of dozens of threads that were continually merged into one giant thread, the essence of which was the majority of a veteran community begging to be given just one character slot. Just one.

It’s galling, and it is pathetic. It is pathetic to see a community reduced to grovelling to a company they funded for half of the slots that they happily gave us with GW1’s expansion.

dervix.9126:

Hammersmash Ureface.2650:

I put about 15000 hours into GW1. I have 2 accounts and my wife has one.

I’ve out about 2.8-3k into GW2 so far, and I can honestly say that I really don’t know anymore why I log in to do the dailies, I just do. Nostalgia-driven perhaps, perhaps one of those poor buggers who hangs on to the last out of hope that they might start doing the right thing by us again.
Unfortunately, I just don’t feel like there’s much hope left. More and more microtransactions, more and more bugs, less and less real content. Now this. Freebies for newbies and a good jolly rogering for people like me who’ve paid and paid and paid and paid….
3xProphecies 100aud/ea
3xFactions 100aud/ea
3xNightfall 100aud/ea
3x EotN 50aud/ea
3x GW2 pre-order (Whatever that cost)
3×..........Not happening. Not any more.

~because~

*Obvious ignoring of day 1 bugs while anything that affects gem sales gets priority “NUMERO UNO MATE BLOODY OATH DON’T YOU WORRY!” etc. etc. etc. etc.

Anet hasn’t dropped the ball.

There is no ball.

I’d like to know what bugs it is you’re complaining about, exactly. GW2 is relatively one of the most bug free MMOs out there. It’s easy to just shout “BUGS, BUGS, DEVS IGNORE BUGS, I SWEARS IT, THEY ONLY CARE ABOUT GEMS” but.. can you actually give an example you know about where fixing a day-one bug was eschewed in favor of fixing a gem store problem?

Do you use an Ele or any other character class whose blast skills end up on the enemy targeted and not where you put them? Didn’t ever get sick of dying just for running down a hill? You’re right. They’ve never ignored a single zero day bug nigh on forever whilst fixing the gem store issues with utmost speed. Never.

So. If I buy the exp, and already have the core game, where’s my separate key for the copy of the core game I get free with the exp? I do get a key right, because otherwise you haven’t really given me anything, you’ve just said you did.
It makes no sense, no sense at all to buy kitten HoT basic key and tack it onto an existing account when I get a whole new account with it. 5 more character slots to play with instead of the zero I’d get if I tacked it onto my main. That’s the slot I’d need for Revenant and 4 mules.
I can’t help but think that a big problem that anet is going to run into here is that most people understand economics. Most people that understand economics and want the exp don’t want to give up those 5 free slots in exchange for exactly zero, and if they were tired of all the old gear they had and that gear still remained of worth…

(*Cue Mass Account-selling)

THat’s right. People want the new content, the new legendaries, and I daresay more than a few of them will be funding it by selling their still highly valuable old exp-less accounts for large sums of r/l money (How much is a 2.5k gold weapon or 3 worth anyway?) and the facilitator is none other than anet.

Facilitate how, you say? Simple. It would be economically unviable any other way. Old skins and stuff worth nothing to people that have them are worth far more to those that don’t. If I cared less for this game, if I had lesser ethics, my copy would already be on sale… ;-)

Fancy that eh..Cruising FB and a notification from DDO pops up. “We hope you’re enjoying the new class!”

Interesting…Research….

Seems they gave us VIP’s, i.e. anyone who’s spent money in any way on DDO, a new class for free. For free.

Seems that a relatively P2P kinda deal like DDO that’s been accused many times of being grabby is still being nicer to its paying customers (not timegated) than aNet is.

Sad. I prefer GW2, but I do like DDO, and if they’re going to be nice to me while aNet prefer distance and silence, well..

Pifil.5193:

ZanchinFissure.7981:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

TheToxicFox.8710:

DONE! I’m gonna use the $50 towards Fallout 4.

Now why didn’t I think of that myself…? That is a really good idea.

Cuz It’s probably gonna be all hype and no delivery.

… and so will Fallout 4! Badum-tish!

Cold day in hell. Cold day in hell. \m/

JohnnyS.1460:

Finally some official word from the devs…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZspKoupWAY

JohnnyS. Internet Legend. All around good guy.

I lost it. I lost it bad. It’s all so…SO REAL.