Guild Wars 2

katz.8376:

i’ve noticed a difference in how our score looks first thing in the morning over the past… oh.. say… week or so. maybe a tad more. instead of logging on in the morning and seeing we owned NOTHING like i used to, i now log on and see we take up our 1/3 of the pie graph… culminating with waking up one morning to see we’d taken stonemist overnight or early morning (which i posted a screenshot of).

to me, it means we either have more people… a night crew forming possibly… or we have a portion of our day people shifting to night and morning for some reason. as i’ve said more than once now.. i’m not noticing a marked increase in fighters during my usual active times…and in fact i’ve noticed a slight decrease at times (to the point that i wonder how we’re holding our lead over fergy O.o ) so i’m not sure where these hypothetical new people are hiding.

meh. shrug

This. I’m EST, and while I’m at work I’ll keep tabs on the current scores as much as they’re updated. Up until last week, ET would control essentially nothing from the late AM EST through about 3-4 pm EST. Last week, all of the sudden, there’s been a surge in ET control during these hours, especially around 11-noon EST. I haven’t noticed any new faces during peak server hours, but during these off hours it definitely looks like either there are new faces, or at least new commitment.

I have a sinking suspicion that the “solution” to this issue is going to essentially be “wait it out, and watch as more and more people leave SF, until they’re on par with ET/FC to make T8 more competitive.”

I guess it WOULD solve the whole “there is no 3rd T8 server,” but I can’t help but feel bad for the situation it puts SF into.

Shademehr.1397:

Here’s another thought about how this ranking system works: If SF is consitantly ruling T8 and the system seems to indicate that since it’s “as expected”, there is little possibility of them moving up a tier, what would happen if ET and FC suddenly starting making more points? Is it possible, as the system stands now, to do a whole lot better but still not “win” the points race, and still move up in rankings?

For example, say the score over the last several weeks was: SF (450,000), FC (75,000), ET (65,000) but suddenly, and for the next couple of weeks, the scores starting looking like SF (350,000), FC (190,000), ET (50,000). Because FC showed a significant points improvement, would they be “better than expected” and be able to move up to another tier?

Short answer? No.

Long answer: While the sudden increase in points WOULD give FC a ratings boost, the closer they get to SF in ratings, the better and better they would need to do in order to continue gaining rating. By the point they’re say, within 50 rating of SF, they would need to actually win each week to continue gaining points in a meaningful way. And while FC is gaining rating, SF would be losing it, which means this crossover would occur somewhere around 800 rating. FC would then need to pull weeks similarly to how SF has been lately for a few months in order to catch up to the lowest rating in T7, 1025.

A single sudden performance increase on SF would certainly give them a big jump in points, but by no means the 400 rating that they would need to move up a tier. It wouldn’t even be the ~200 rating necessary to replace FC at the top of T8.

I really don’t think that discussing how FC would do in T7 (or HOD in T8) speaks either way regarding the topic at hand. It’s a hypothetical regarding the result a symptom of the problem.

Shademehr.1397:

I just wanted to say thanks to that SF ranger that pulled me out of the tower wall last night (then killed me). I was stuck in that dern thing for about 15 minutes. I couldn’t port because I was considered “in battle” and didn’t really want to DC entirely because I was enjoying the SF vs Ferg action that was going on around all the catapults. It was kind of exhilirating to litterally be inches away from the enemy while we stood there face to face. I could almost see some of the perplexed looks on faces as I /danced and /waved. (Why isn’t there an emote for /PleasePutMeOutOfMyMisery?)

When I finally got “freed” by the SF ranger, it was on the interior side of the wall (it was theirs) and I was so shocked, I couldn’t even manage an appropriate defense. lol

[/NotHackingJustBuggyAsHeck]

I don’t know about the logistics of where you were trapped, but when we have people trapped in walls and doors, we find that a mesmer can sometimes drop a portal close enough you can click on it and get out.

I do not know if you were in a situation where this would have helped, but if it ever happens again, give it a try! Being stuck in walls is only fun for so long

kerona.3465:

What ET and FC are calling for is basically a full server population reroll so that they can have a fighting chance, not a point reset.

I’m going to re-state what I said on the previous page, which are the two points that I feel are the crux of the problem we’re trying to discuss here. A reroll would solve point 1, which would theoretically invalidate point 2 as well, but I don’t think it’s fair to people happy where they are.

1. ET and FC do not have an appropriately matched third opponent, and more importantly:
2. ET/FC’s low ratings cause an excessive dragging effect on SF (or any other server eventually in SF’s current situation) which makes it very difficult for overqualified servers to get out of T8 when they are forced to fill that open slot.

Very few people are arguing that a reset will somehow improve ET/FC’s position. The problem is that SF’s performance has demonstrated that they are not an appropriate match for T8, but due to how ratings are calculated, they are being essentially held in T8 by ET/FC’s spectacularly low ratings. We do not know if HoD would be a better fit in T8, in all likelihood they would be no better for it; but at this rate it will be months before we find out, if at all. This much lack of mobility seems excessive for a server that seemed a perfect match for HOD in T7.

A ratings reset would have done two things.
1: It would have allowed SF a chance at a more accurate Tier for them, and MAYBE a more appropriate server into T8.

2: It would have reset ET/FC’s ratings, which would temporarily alleviate the dragging affect that they have on whatever server faces them.

It would not solve the problem permanently, as our two outlier servers ET/FC would continue to fall in ratings to a point where they become the drag that they are now on whoever they face. The current ratings system will always cause this to happen.

A re-roll, as you say, could indeed alleviate this problem, but that isn’t a certainty. ANet would have to watch server activity and try to balance out its player base, which would understandably upset a lot of people. It would almost certainly have to be followed by a ratings reset as well, for obvious reasons.

TL:DR: Instead, I propose two steps to potentially alleviate this problem:

First, ANET adjusts how they calculate ratings for outliers at the bottom of the scale. The spiral downward that consistent losers experience will drag more and more on servers just above them, in a fashion that can eventually doom them to being a part of the spiral. Adjust for that.

Second, do more to increase mobility to low-activity servers. Don’t make permanent changes, instead the occasional “transfer sale” to try to boost their populations. This would, in a controlled fashion, bring up servers like ET and FC so that they are not such a “step below the rest.” It’s a more constructive solution than trying to doom a third server to match their activity levels.

Manoa.5897:

One of my servermates just posted about this. I smell bullkitten.

Without having access to the game (at work), I’d wager someone submitted a false report.

If we actually DID take everything, describing it as unusual would be the understatement of the year.

ParaldaWind.4523:

Labarge.1439:

ParaldaWind.4523:

Honestly, though… who else would T8 play? Have you guys not considered that you might be stomped by any T7 server that drops down?

I know Maguuma dropping down only one tier, from T4 to T5 caused two weeks of insane roflstomping. The same happens when FA drops into T3…

There is a world of difference between tiers, and I don’t think a ratings reset would change anything for ET or FC.

The problems are two-fold:

1. ET and FC do not have an appropriately matched third opponent, and more importantly:

2. ET/FC’s low ratings cause an excessive dragging effect on SF (or any other server eventually in SF’s current situation) which makes it very difficult for overqualified servers to get out of T8 when they are forced to fill that open slot.

The 2nd problem is the one that I think can be more easily dealt with, as it is caused primarily by how ratings are calculated. Problem #1 is not a simple fix, as you correctly point out. However, not being simple doesn’t invalidate it as a problem, and at the very least something could be done to help alleviate problem #2.

I guess I understand your point, but SF lost when they were in T7, so do they not deserve to be T8?

Check how they lost, I’ll even dig up the links because I was looking at this the other day.

The three weeks SF spent in T7:
http://mos.millenium.org/servers/view/45/13
http://mos.millenium.org/servers/view/45/14
http://mos.millenium.org/servers/view/45/15

In the three weeks they were present in T7, the big winners were servers that were in process of moving up the ranks due to population booms during the free transfers. They were nearly identical in performance as HOD during those three weeks, but due to a weak third week (by 8k points, nearly non-existent), it dropped them into T8, where they have stayed for the last 6 weeks, with no end in sight.

In essence, their presence in T8 has nothing to do with them deserving to be there, and all the more with there being a vacuum in which they are forced to fill. The vacuum even has some nasty numbers that make mobility for said “placeholder” server a pipe dream.

EDIT: Misread my own citations, only one team during those three weeks really qualifies as “moving up in the ranks due a population boom”. SF’s performance compared to HOD is still accurate however.

ParaldaWind.4523:

Honestly, though… who else would T8 play? Have you guys not considered that you might be stomped by any T7 server that drops down?

I know Maguuma dropping down only one tier, from T4 to T5 caused two weeks of insane roflstomping. The same happens when FA drops into T3…

There is a world of difference between tiers, and I don’t think a ratings reset would change anything for ET or FC.

The problems are two-fold:

1. ET and FC do not have an appropriately matched third opponent, and more importantly:

2. ET/FC’s low ratings cause an excessive dragging effect on SF (or any other server eventually in SF’s current situation) which makes it very difficult for overqualified servers to get out of T8 when they are forced to fill that open slot.

The 2nd problem is the one that I think can be more easily dealt with, as it is caused primarily by how ratings are calculated. Problem #1 is not a simple fix, as you correctly point out. However, not being simple doesn’t invalidate it as a problem, and at the very least something could be done to help alleviate problem #2.

Arcadio.6875:

D W.5179:

Something is broken with the scoring here… has to be.
I don’t see a way out of tier 8 unless they correct the rating system. Doubling the score of your enemy should NOT show an overall loss in rating points.
Could somebody from ANet explain the math behind this a bit, and possibly defend it? I’d like to know what has to happen for us to GAIN points, as doubling the enemy score is not enough.

You gain or lose rating based on how your actual performance compares to your expected performance which in turn is based on ratings. FC and ET’s ratings are so low that SF is expected to win by a massive blowout. Having a big blowout is underperforming.

One solution to fix this is to tighten the ratings. Change ever server’s rating to 1500+((current rating)-1500)/2. The problem will eventually come up again, but SF would be allowed to escape if this were applied once. Another solution is to have a rule added to the matchmaking system. If a server wins a tier twice and the server above it gets 3rd place twice, switch them for the next match. They can keep their rating, but their rank will switch.

While this would help, I can’t help feel it’s just a band-aid on a bullet wound. ET/FC would continue to drop in ratings, essentially causing a black hole effect that sucks down the ratings of whoever they fight in T8. For every week that their ratings drop, this effect will get worse and worse on whoever gets stuck with us. Even if they get to play in Tier 7 every few weeks, the effect on their rating will be ugly.

Theoretically, this third server’s rating will eventually get so bad that they will begin adding to the effect, and we’ll have 3 servers dragging things down, which could lead to that one server that gets cycled into T7 to start dragging THAT down as well.

Semi-bumping this thread to get it above the “1-18” one that for whatever reason was resurrected. Despite the usual imbalances there have been some good fights here and there. I wish we could field reset night numbers every day of the week.

I would love to see at the very least, an ANET response to our situation. Even something along the lines of “we feel our current system functions well enough to resolve this situation on its own” would make me feel better. Should I resign myself to facing opponents overqualified for our tier for months at a time, or can I look forward to an improved process? Honestly I suspected the ratings reset was to be implemented primarily due to situations like ours, but with it now cancelled it’s kinda hard to tell.

I look at server history, and watch SF perform on par with HoD for the final 3 weeks of 2012. However due to influx servers like Kaineng pushing their way up through the ranks, SF fell to T8 to fill the vacuum. For averaging JUST below HoD (seriously, 1.9k points) over those 3 weeks, they now have to spend at least 8 weeks crushing T8 to return? They even outperformed the first two weeks of it, which means that in reality they lost that third week sooooo badly (whopping 8k to HOD in Week 52), that they’ve been with us in T8 ever since. I understand they started their time here a bit more on par, but from Week 3 onward they’ve been stomping harder and harder, several orders of magnitude worse than their performance to HOD in Week 52. That’s 6 weeks of pain for T8, because they were squeaked out of T7 by an 8k loss? How are they possibly still here? How is this acceptable?

nightfend.4072:

This reset will be rather hilarious for Maguuma and Dragonbrand as both Tier 3 servers (who are currently fighting Kaineg) will drop into last place or close to it. This means several weeks of completely crushing the other lower ranked servers.

Even if Mag and DB get put together, I feel bad for the 3rd server that will get railroaded by this recalculation.

If the calculations stay the same, it will be…. Eredon Terrace.

Crap.

geekanerd.4123:

Hey ET dudes. Ferg here. Sometimes we fight and it’s awesome. We make pretty solid opponents. Yet, there is a river of Sorrow’s Furnace stooges so often in the way. I wave at you, at times, from across it. So it goes.

Lots of love,

Blue Map

Realistically I would rather see a third server with populations/wvw activity down near us to round out a proper tier 8. If ET gained population, we’d just be leaving FC behind, and vise versa, which wouldn’t really solve the problems we face collectively as tier 8.

mclovinballs.4031:

The results are

The 6-8 Arrow Carts we had pelting them sure didn’t hurt either. Sooooooo many loot bags.

Skarloc.2569:

We have about 15 active players in Envy, 10 of which are on Ferguson’s Crossing. We have a limited group of characters to choose from, so it’s likely that you see the same faces over and over. We’ve had greater diversity in months past, but a lot of people have either quit the game or are inactive. I personally play a mesmer, but I’ve been playing this character since the game’s launch, when it was the least played class in the game. And like Dank said, a lot of us have level 80 alts. Which class a lot of us plays has a lot to do with the situation we are usually in.

As I am guessing you have seen by fighting us, we are usually massively outnumbered. Not all the time, but a very good majority of it. Don’t get me wrong, I prefer a challenging fight, but we’re lucky if we can get a full guild group going on a given night. With some of the numbers we have to face on a daily basis, there’s a reason a lot of us play thieves and mesmers. When it’s 3 on 20, we’re going to run with whatever gives us the best chance to hold off that many numbers. There’s usually more thieves attacking me in a fight than I will have guildies online. I don’t really feel bad with whatever group composition we choose considering what we constantly go up against.

I can’t imagine that the initial question was asked as a criticism, and you certainly shouldn’t feel bad. The question came up simply because, the last time we (or at least I) encountered your guild as a group, we all asked ourselves afterwards, “wait, was that an entire guild of thieves and mesmers?”

I’ve found the Greatsword’s Berzerker Phantasm pretty helpful for dealing with groups. The attack speed could be better, and positioning is important, but combined with a Staff it’s served me well so far.

It was a good time to be had by all last night, I look forward to many more to come.

These screenshots make me think I’m playing at the wrong times for ET. Logged out last night we didn’t even have a presence in EB (let alone the castle), and then I see screenshots like that above the next day.