Guild Wars 2

ThiBash.5634:

They have single fields yes. Not multiple types. And how many of the weapons that create combo fields are actually dps weapons? Just about all weapon choices are about choosing between roles. The elementalist is less restricted in this but not to the point where they can do everything and not get penalized for it in some way.

I thought that was a typo, since no one is asking for multiple fields and multiple finishers on one staff alignment (that would be…four out of five skills devoted to comboing)
Just a combo in the same attunement as a field.

But that’s the thing: you don’t NEED to finish your own combos in a team. You have your team to do that for you. You don’t have to switch if you deem it to be suboptimal at that point.

If all you’re doing is laying down combo fields, your entire character has become about as effective as the warrior longbow burst attack. Slightly more, because one of your fields has some situational utility, in addition to fire.

ThiBash.5634:

COUNTER-STRAWMAN!

You yourself mention a long list of various kinds of things that specific classes can do better. The reason they are weaker for the elementalist is because they’re all combined on a single profession. That’s also the reason why we cannot combo on all our attunements. Because we have so many different skills. It’s a tradeoff.

But if keeping up your dps while also providing good utility isn’t your goal, then I honestly don’t understand what you’re trying to achieve with this discussion.

I mentioned several things 1 build of 1 profession can do better.
No one has said “I wish my ele could do he damage of a warrior while buffing really well, and lets be tanky too” and that seems to be what you are responding too.

Lorat.1085:

You mean field, right? Cause the elementalist only has one ice field

I agree though! Being able to combo a field multiple times would be quite useful. It would be nice if the elementalist was capable of that. But hey, 1 blast every 15 seconds, and another every 20

I meant fields as in casting them multiple times during dungeons runs, so you’re right on that. As for my statement, I meant to say that actively working together as a team negates the need for an elementalist to finish their own fields. A smart thief could, when he sees a water field appear, use his blasts to heal himself to full. he wouldn’t even need my blast.[/quote]

Thats simply not true. Every blast finisher adds something. A comparison: A 4 man team can do fractals working together. Working together negates the need for a fifth one to participate. If the ele was the only class to lay down fields, or others only had rare access to them, that would be a valuable role. But chances are the other 4 members of your party are going to easy access to every field the elementalist might place (except for lightning, that one is unique to the elementalist) and the ele becomes redundant.

Creslin.1758:

You know, I could go on the mesmer forum right now and rant about how the class is broken because illusions need to run to your target to shatter, or they lack swiftness, or whatever.

And you would be completely alone

But you know what? All that crap is meaningless. Everyone knows that mesmer is an amazing class in the hands of a skilled player. Same is true with Ele.

Good players are good!

All the things you mention in your OP are just little isolated details that are irrelevant when you look at the big picture. And the big picture is that many good D/D Ele PvPers can 1v1 ANY class in the game and win. And not only that, Ele has some of the best group support in the game, so not only can you 1v1 any class and win, you also bring AMAZING support to your group while you’re doing it. There really aren’t many classes that do that…in fact, I can’t think of any.

Would suggest reading thread before posting next time

The class is not broken, you are playing it wrong.

If you don’t like the playstyle of Ele, then by all means, try another class.

ThiBash.5634:

Blaine Tog.8304:

The versatility of the Elementalist is for naught if we don’t have the ability to dynamically adapt to the situation.

But the thing is, we DO have that ability. It’s just restricted through the attunement system, but there’s probably a good reason for that.

Lorat.1085:

5 finishers, 1 field = 5 combos.
1 finisher 5 fields = 1 combo.
Which is better?
Fields are all over the place when playing in groups.

Quality over quantity. Personally, I prefer the chill from my ice fields over the retaliation caused by guardian fields.

Best would be another class that uses their finishes to proc multiple times on my fields.

But wait, that would mean that…

You mean field, right? Cause the elementalist only has one ice field

I agree though! Being able to combo a field multiple times would be quite useful. It would be nice if the elementalist was capable of that. But hey, 1 blast every 15 seconds, and another every 20

Then by all means, go play a thief. Most of what you mention here has been adressed several times already. But to sum it up:

Other classes can’t do all, so it’s unreasonable to ask for the elementalist to do all. If you want long lasting conditions, great support or high dps, then you have to pick and spec for it. You can’t have it all in the same build. Not even on the elementalist.

STRAWMAN

I dont want the elementalist to do all. I want it to do something well. No one is complaining because their elementalist isnt doing everything well, or even two things. Attunement and the removal of EA prevents effectivly (read: as well as another class) playing support. An aura ele can hand out fury and swiftness, but not might. Damage isnt as high as other dps classes when specing for it while almost certainly being more fragile.

Except for dropping a variety of fields, the elementalist can do that really well.

But we do have that option. Most people just don’t take it. And the attunements just make every build a bit more than what it is. Yes, it’s a trade-off in that sense, but I wouldn’t call it a bad one.

Not switching attunement isn’t a real option.

Its like saying you dont need to use utility slots

But the trait line is for shatter cd. Which means that the devs decided shatter cd = attunement cd.

The trait line is for the profession specific mechanic. For elementalists is attunement, for mesmers its shatter, for thieves is steal, for warriors its burst damage. Just beacuse they are profession specific doesnt make them the same.

Which means their abilities don’t have their power tied up in the idea that they can start combos. Having a combo field and being unable to proc it is worse than not having a combo field because it means that skill has less of something else as a result (or it’s an overpowered skill).

But warriors have a ton of finishers. How is it any different? Ele has a field s/he can’t finish, warrior has a finisher with no field…

5 finishers, 1 field = 5 combos.
1 finisher 5 fields = 1 combo.
Which is better?
Fields are all over the place when playing in groups.

But your claim is based on your personal preferences. You are not stating universal facts, you are expressing your opinion of the class. A class I enjoy in every possible way thus disagree with you. I’ve seen broken, underdeveloped and generally UP classes. Ele ain’t one of them. And since you seem to like other classes, I find it pretty obvious that ele simply isn’t a match for you. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that…except that you actually take it as an insult…which is weird….

He offered a coherent argument that was not based on his personal preferences, but was based on observations about the game. You basically said he sucked and his ego was preventing him from seeing that.

Dacromir.6207:

MrButtermancer.1624:

6: No weapon swap. Hear me out. Every other class can modify their effective range…

However, you get something to balance that off. At whatever range you choose, you have all the tools. No matter what your weapon set, attunements mean that you always have a large variety of tools at your disposal.

On professions, however, are limited in what tools they take. Each weapon will only fulfill a couple of roles. For example, let’s look at a Thief (the class I know best). Let’s stay you’re stereotypical, so you have dagger/dagger. As an offset, you want a ranged option, so you go for shortbow.

This means that they have engagement range flexibility. They can fight at 130 range (D/D) or 900 range (SB). However, their role flexibility is extremely limited.

So, let’s compare the two. Thief gets one weapon for high single-target damage and stealth, with some moderate AoE bleeding. We get another weapon for high ranged AoE damage, from poison, bleeding, and direct damage, as well as utility from shadowsteps and a spammable (ish) blast finisher. However, the thief is lacking any form of control beyond cripple and has no self-healing. In addition, our AoE damage at melee range is very weak, and our single-target damage at long range is extremely lacking.

Contrast that with the elementalist. Other than a couple of skills used to close gaps, the majority of your damage is 300-400". You have no real options to do anything at range, other than get closer. You’re useless against anything on a wall. However, you have a wide variety of melee range tools. You get several hard controls (knockdown, knockback, stun aura). You get lots of chill application, as well as a ranged immobilize. You can do high AoE damage from both conditions and direct damage. You get high single-target damage from both conditions and direct damage, with great burst (on a long cooldown). You get two healing skills, one of which is AoE and removes conditions.

The thief is left with several gaps in their build (control, healing, condition removal), which they’ll have to fill with traits or slot skills. Your weapons give you all of the basic tools you need (single-target/AoE, direct/condition, control, healing, condition removal, gap closers) and you merely enhance whichever facets you want to focus on with traits.

…

I don’t think that your system is bad. It’s definitely different, but that’s okay. Classes are supposed to be different. You get pros (tons of flexibility within your chosen range) to match the cons (lack of range flexibility). I see that as an okay thing. Even though a D/D elementalist is useless at long range, they’re an absolute beast in melee.

A few things
- d/d and shortbow thieves can use initiative to dodge, and with endurance, dodge continuously. The lack of conditional removal is more than compensated for by the ability to avoid getting inflicted with conditions.
- both classes need a healing skill for healing. Water healing is a really tiny bandaid.
-You have a 3 second chill skill on a 15 second cooldown. Frost aura requires you get hit. Not a good deal.
- A lot of ele skills suck, frankly. Im not sure where I was going with that, but every time I look though the 20 skills for a weapon setup, I seem to think “man, this blows” about half.
-Churning earth requires your incredibly fragile character to stand within hitting distance without moving for just over 3 seconds
-The condition removal is 1 every 40 seconds. That barely qualifies.
-You do have a bunch of knockdowns, but against bosses/tougher mobs, those arent that useful. It basically takes 5 to get 1 interrupt.
-Cluster bomb is the best blast finisher in the game. Maybe the best finisher. You can just stand in a field, aim at your feet, and cast area _ 5 times.
-Thief damage is better. Significant Id bet, though I have no numbers to back it up.
-Thief has more survivability, just because of the ease of dodging, and the ability to move twice as far from an enemy while attacking.
-Thief has more utility value. This is harder to measure, but 5 blast finishers, 1 after another, every 20 seconds? It cant make many fields, but it can finish a hellovalot better, and thats much harder to find.
-Initiative is the most unique profession mechanical, and it completely changes how the thief plays compared to other classes. 1 really good ability makes a weapon worth it, cause others just leach off your initiative.

Basically everyone I notice weapon switching has a short/long range combo, mesmers being the exception. Actually, I have no idea what rangers/necros and engineers do in that regard (can engineers even switch? they have like 3 total options, r, p/p, p/s) But of ones I’ve noticed, three of four go short/long

ThiBash.5634:

Lorat.1085:

And those are the only combo finishers eles get from their staff, they are still sorely lacking. And they don’t have a field under earth
Attunement timers means you cant use your finishers with your own field more than every 10.5 seconds (assuming maxed profession talent, 15 without)

So, how many professions have both multiple field types and finisher moves in the same weapon bar? Exactly.

Well, thieves have both finishers and fields on their shortbows and p/p
Warriors, of course, have the longbow.
Mesmers have the staff, for a field/leap combo.

Those are the only classes I’ve played (and the ele of course) so Im guessing on the rest.

Necros have the staff
Engineers have the elixer gun
Guardian has mace/focus
ranger has sword/torch

So….all of them?

It’s something that many of you just don’t seem to get: attunement swapping isn’t a gimmick. It’s the core mechanic of the class. You don’t HAVE to use it, but in order to get the most out of your class, you’ll have to. Just like how a ranger can do ok without their pet, but the game is designed on the assumption that they do.

The earth finishers are designed in such a way that you can place an Eruption, switch to fire, get a blast finisher, switch to air/water to another field, and then back to earth to shoot projectiles through it.

There is nothing wrong with that. We don’t need earth fields and we don’t need more finishers.

I think everyone understands that attunement change is required to play even moderately effectively as an elementalist. Thats the problem – the time change is so high, 15 seconds, you have to invest in the talent tree to make that more manageable, because the class requires that you use attunement switching. Basically, instead of using trait points to customize our character, we have to use them to compensate for kitteny balancing. The combo you mentioned? It would take 15 seconds before you were back firing earth projectile finishers with no talent points invested.

In forming an effective party, the poor damage means that support is the only real role, but the inability of elementists to combo their own fields reliably means they are subpar at that as well. They can supply fields, but others have got to finish them

TWMagimay.9057:

Lorat.1085:

Well, first, it would be 15 extra skills, first off.

First off, other classes have 10 weapon skills, ele has 20. 20-10=10, not 15. And what F1 skill has no limitations? Or what class has no limitation on weapon change? Yeah, that.

Reread your original post and make up your mind. Just make up your mind and stick with one standard, its not a big deal

1 extra skill per weapon is content but 20 extra skills per weapon isn’t?!

I was going more for…it’s a different playstyle. Neither is by default worse or better. What staff lacks in dmg, it more than makes up for with kiting ability.

Entirely true and I am completely in agreement. Part of what makes the kiting so good is the range of the staff. What if you are in a situation where that doesnt matter? Every other class can switch, a thief from shortbow (ranged kiting) to d/d (damage), a warrior from rifle to great sword, and adjust the range and style of fighting somewhat with the weapon switch. Elementalists cant, if youre using a staff, youre using a staff. It might make more sense to think of it in the other direction, if you are using d/d, and you decide you want to scoot back for a few seconds, you cant. Well, you can, but not and deal damage. Ele is the only class with this limitation.

Precisely the bolded part. For one, support is not just healing(seriously, I wonder what kind of healers you all played with till now). I can support my party by slowing down/immobilizing/blinding/stunning a mob/boss/group of mobs.

You have constantly referred to your elementalist as a healer. No one on this thread has said support is healing only. Considering there is no real healing in this game, i doubt anyone playing it things support is healing only.

That’d be your opinion, not a fact. Who’s to say that shatter cd isn’t too long to begin with and the trait line is just fixing a design flaw? You? Or another person not from the dev team?

Absolutely no one. Where as a ton of people hate the attunement cooldown and it seems most builds use talents points to deal with it. Probably a solid indicator of something.

Oh, so it’s ok to force the warrior into using longbow and banners as utility skills, but it’s not ok to force the ele into using anything, right? Ele must have access to everything, instantly without any limitations or it’s a broken class?

Force the eles to use what? Seriously, I’m assuming you have arcane wave all the time, what else can you force them to take? They don’t even have access to abilities to make them to take.

Why is it awful? And how is it any more awful than having 1 blast finisher only?

Warriors have more than 1 blast finisher, and 3 projectile finishers on the longbow. Which I think is what you are getting at? Its a waste to plan around the projectile finishers (yay! 1 second of burning!) when using them requires attunement switching.
You can use multiple finishers with 1 field, you cannot use multiple fields with a single finisher. Overlapping fire fields wont grant you 6 stacks of might.
A warrior could fire the fire arrow, the exploding arrow, call down a banner, pick it up, and put it down again for 9 stacks.

An ele could place a fire field, switch to earth, using eruption, use arcane power, for 6 stacks.

The both can repeat for 6 more stacks, the warrior every 10 seconds, the ele every 20.

The warrior can take a shout to give another 3 stacks and fury every 25 seconds

The ele is all tapped out (short of going full aura sharing)

Ah, so the whole dmg argument is retracted. Good, we agree ele dmg is just fine.

um, what? We certainly dont agree, ele damage is pitiful.

Oh, this is funny. Especially the part where warrior long bow(you know, the warrior mandatory weapon according to you) takes 1min40s. .

You said staff ele auto attacks were as good as others, they are all near the bottom of this list.

An argument without support, sure. But how can an opinion be invalid? It’s based on smb’s personal belief, not on facts. You can view an opinion as invalid, because it contradicts your opinion, but that doesn’t make it invalid.

No, opnions can be invalid. For example, your belief that I said longbows were required would be invalid, because you cant logically draw that conclusion from what I’ve said. Likewise, if I had said that, believing the low ranking of the longbow auto attack (its true, it sucks) proved me wrong wouldn’t be a valid conclusion to draw, because most players dont go around only using the auto attack.

ThiBash.5634:

How about a fleeing player? Or the CoE path when you get to man the southern forst cannon? You can hit the boss with it without leaving the cannon.

A fleeing player would have to be at around health 15% (it actually did around 2300 damage in wvw, so more than I expected), fairly far away (it did just occur to me that I was assuming using a staff, if you are using daggers they would only have to be between 600 and 1500, so a bit more of window) not surrounded be teamates, or even really with anyone nearby to res them. And either out of endurance or not paying attention. And they cant have just come from a fight with you, because arcane wave would be a better choice, hands down, if they were in range of it. Or almost any of the signets, ranges of 1200. And there has got to be a cliff or something inbetween you, or else lightning flash would get you in range.

And you would have to see all of this coming, or else there is a better spell for the slot.

I dunno the coe path, path 3 i assume? But the boss would have to be standing between 1200 and 1500 hundred units away. Well, theres more conditions for it to be worth anything, but I have a hard time believing there isnt another skill that would del better damage than 2000 every 20 seconds.
[/quote]

ThiBash.5634:

Blaine Tog.8304:

6) Combo finishers. Especially now that EA has been gutted, Eles are sorely lacking in ways to complete our own combos. It’s great that we can throw down a lot of combo fields, but you know what? Everyone has combo fields and just about everyone has easy ways of completing their own combos. Many professions get combo finishers on their Weapon autoattacks. How awesome would it be if Fireball counted as a Blast Finisher (20% chance)? But nope, we get nothing as shiny as that because then we’d be too versatile or something.

This is one point I have to correct. Most of the earth staff spells are in fact combo finishers.

And those are the only combo finishers eles get from their staff, they are still sorely lacking. And they don’t have a field under earth
Attunement timers means you cant use your finishers with your own field more than every 10.5 seconds (assuming maxed profession talent, 15 without)

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

Lorat.1085:

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

Solori.6025:

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

I havnt found 1 skill that is useless in Elementalist.

!

I can actually name a few that are -_-

Really? Cause I was able to find all Utility and Weapon skills useful in different situations in mid-combat.

I said this before, but I’ll say it again for this thread:
“The usefulness of the Skills and Utilities are determined on how you use them’
So yeah, Make sure you learn what the skills do, and challenge urself into making strategies that works with them.

The more strategies you learn using different combos, the better you are when it comes to different situations that calls for it. =) I dont stick with 1 weapon and utility set. I change it up a lot. It’s really fun.

Arcane blast. Completely awful. I cant think of a single realistic scenerio it would be worthwhile. (Maybe if you were 1500 away and didnt want to get closer because it had some awesome 1 hit kill attack that couldnt be dodged, and it only had 500 hp left)

The conjure _ skills just kinda suck, but you might be able to think of a time the axe/hammer could help. Though I cant, so consider that a challenge.

Arcane Blast isnt that bad. Actually I can use Arcane Shield if enemy gets too close to me and I dont have enough endurance to dodge, Use Arcane Blast for extra damage then Dodge back quickly when endurance is rechanrged. Or If my Endurance is still low, switch to Fire attument, use Skill3 to Dodge with Burning effect if I’m using Staff.

actually its not bad when ur using daggers. since Some skills with daggers require you to be up close. Attking enemy’s blind sides is well done and I do close range spells as well.

It depends on what utilities and weapon skills/attunemnt you use.
If for example: You just use Arcane Blast just for the extra damage when ur using a Staff, “Which means u have to get closer for more damage”, then that would be pointless, I agree. But when u cant dodge,

Again; You can use “Arcane Shield” when enemy is close to you, and “Arcane Blast” to help Completment each other during that situation if it occurs.

I have to experiment with tons of different Utility and weapon attument combos and test them out in action to see better ways to use em.

Youre thinking of Arcane Wave, the blast finishers that does critical damage. Arcane blast is a projectile finisher that does just over half the damage but has a range of 1500

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

Solori.6025:

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

I havnt found 1 skill that is useless in Elementalist.

!

I can actually name a few that are -_-

Really? Cause I was able to find all Utility and Weapon skills useful in different situations in mid-combat.

I said this before, but I’ll say it again for this thread:
“The usefulness of the Skills and Utilities are determined on how you use them’
So yeah, Make sure you learn what the skills do, and challenge urself into making strategies that works with them.

The more strategies you learn using different combos, the better you are when it comes to different situations that calls for it. =) I dont stick with 1 weapon and utility set. I change it up a lot. It’s really fun.

Arcane blast. Completely awful. I cant think of a single realistic scenerio it would be worthwhile. (Maybe if you were 1500 away and didnt want to get closer because it had some awesome 1 hit kill attack that couldnt be dodged, and it only had 500 hp left)

The conjure _ skills just kinda suck, but you might be able to think of a time the axe/hammer could help. Though I cant, so consider that a challenge.

TWMagimay.9057:

And warriors get content? 1 extra skill per weapon is content but 20 extra skills per weapon isn’t?! How does that work exactly…?

Well, first, it would be 15 extra skills, first off. And it loses your weapon switch, which gives most (all?) range flexibility. And you have a cooldown when switching between attunements, which almost requires investing heavily in one talent tree if you want to combo.

It might be for the general public, aka the less skilled with a hammer. But it also doesn’t mean hammer is not a great tool. I like the range, cc and aoes of staff. It allows me to be mobile without missing skills. With a dagger moving 2 steps to the left = miss.

If only one person can carve with a hammer, that’s a solid indicator they are a savant an it is not a great tool.
For people who don’t have trouble with moving two steps to the left = missing, daggers are more effective at soloing mobs. Its not a criticism of the staff, there would be something very wrong if aoe attacks did more damage than single target attacks.

No, I think you are misudnerstanding. For me the low dmg is not a “trade-off”. Ele plays a lot like a healer…The problem is, people expect ele to be a nuker(maybe at some point that were true), but it’s more of a support-dmg hybrid which, ofc, means subpar dps.

do you attack mobs? If so, its a trade off. Regardless, youre agreeing with what he said, lower damage in return for versatility. Support-dmg hybrid -> subpar dps.
WIthout evasive arcana, I dont see how a staff ele is effective at support. You have several fields, but 1 blast finisher and 2 projectile finishers on your weapon. 1 blast and 1 projectile in your utility slots. Geyser is blah (yay! heal! Oh, you mean I have to stand still for 3 seconds?), and healing rain is mostly cosmetic. In a game designed to basically not have healers.

Ermmm, yeah, mesmer gets reduced cd on shatter skills instead…doesn’t sound particularly “more special” to me somehow…

The cooldown on attunements is so high to start that the profession line only brings it to managable levels. It doesn’t give a boost, it corrects a pitiful design flaw.

And warrior still has only one field. If combos were a “requirement” for solo play, warriors would then be the single most UP class in the game…which i don’t think they are. Also, since blast finishers are not the only finishers…a staff ele has 6 fields and gasp 5 finishers(3 projectile, 2 blast). Doesn’t sound bad to me, when you consider that a mesmer with 6 fields can only have 2 finishers(leap) at best. Or 5 fields, 3 finishers(2 leap, 1 blast).

What the hell is the point in having 6 combo fields when playing solo? Even in a party. You would only need multiple combo fields of the same type if they both have long cooldowns.
The warrior can lay down his and blast off stacks of might. Pick up a banner and put it down for another 3. The elementalist can lay down a fire field, switch to earth, and cast eruption and arcane wave. And then wait for 15 seconds because of the attunement cooldown. Solo, the warrior’s one field, usable every 10 seconds, will get him significantly benefit than the elementalist’s.

Getting back to it, the elementalist cant finish his own blast fields that well. 2 blast finishers is awful when you are laying fields all over the place.

The mesmer doesn’t have as many fields, blast finishers, but also isn’t a, what did you call it, healer character?

(Also, some shouts are basically as combination of combo fields/blast finishers. WIth fury too.)

[

Which would be the…class design…. And I wouldn’t say ele autoattacks are that bad… I mean, they are autoattacks after all, all of them are pretty meh, for all classes.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/63335-elementalist-vs-ranger-comparison/#entry1914453
Elementalists are more aggressively meh
Also, you are forced to use attunement switching. Its the class design.
[

Why is it rude? You expect to be perfect at every class and click with every class? Just because you have such high opinion of yourself doesn’t mean that if smb doesn;t share it, they are automatically insulting you. Or maybe it does…ego is a powerful thing. And, yes, it is personal. Because it is your personal view of the class and not some universal facts. I can’t invalidate an opinion, because, well, by definition an opinion is neither valid nor invalid.

PS: stupid post length limit………

I found that statement to be quite rude itself.

An opinion can be invalid. An argument that has no support, that is inconsistent. Which is what you are basically trying to do by saying his problems come from him not know what he is doing.

Thats likely only about 10%-15% more damage, if that makes you feel better.