Guild Wars 2

I`d just like to share an idea i had about a rework/improvement for the steal abilities and the mechanic overall.
What if, instead of steal giving us only one stolen ability it gave us 3: an offensive one (F2), a defensive one (F3) and one that provides utility (F4), and we would choose only one of them to use in that situation, or 2 with the use of the Improvisation trait.

For example, for warrior`s stolen skills in adition to having whirling blades, an offensive skill, we could also steal a shield and use shield block, for defense, or steal a warhorn and provide our allies with boons.
All other proffesion`s stolen skills would follow a simillar pattern, but going with their individual themes.
Of course the skills would be rebalanced to make the choice between the 3 meaningfull.

I came up with this because some of the stolen skills are not wery usefull against the class theyre stolen from, and some are wery situational. I think it would make thief a more usefull and fun to play.

Sometimes when swapping characters before the match starts it takes too long to get back to the match due to the map needing to load twice. I saw players wanting to swap to an alt character because of an unfavorable match up, only to load with barely enough time to adjust their build, or when the match has already started.
Could this be remedied by implementing a character swap panel, similar to the pvp build panel, that would allow you to swap between your characters on the fly, or at least shortening the map loading time.

Is it possible for a thief to play a healer/support in any of the game modes, PvE and WvW in particular?
It seems to me that thief has the worst support and healing capacity compared to other classes.
Could, and should, thieves get some changes to the Shadow arts specialization and deceptions/venoms to make them better at supporting their team? I don’t mean buffs to stealth and self-defense, but only team-support.

A bitz.3825:

I completely agree with everything you said. Specially weakening charge, that animation looks like a place holder animation before you make the good one. It’s the elementalists air focus ability slowed down and sliding the character forward…. very poor animation.

Lotus training is also a very bad one. Paying close attention they are throwing their body from left to right but the right leg is the one thats bent? what wait….its just very unnatural for a human flip.

The asura have the best lotus training animation though in my opinion but even it has a problem of ending the animation like half a frame way to early and feels cheapened. Here’s to hoping one day they adjust it to be more “fluid”. Cheers.

Now that you mention it, yes, the entire weakening charge animation is just a rehashed version of an Ele focus animation. I mean, really?! And it’s been like that since the launch of HoT. I hope the devs change it and soon.

I don’t know about other races and sexes, but I feel like some of the human male animations of the daredevil could be executed much better.
Specifically:
Weakening charge – the entire animation where the character stops, holds the staff out in one hand and just spins (while the legs don’t move at all) looks… for the lack of a better word, dumb. I think this one needs a new animation the most. Perhaps something more fitting would be a shorter version of warrior’s whirlwind attack.

Debilitating arc – this abilities’ animation is just a fast Staff strike (staff#1) + dodge roll. For an ability that get your character out of immobilizing effects and evading attacks while striking opponents, the current animations just seems uninspired (and it looks lazy on the animator’ part)

Vault – I understand that they were going for the pole-vaulting theme here, but the way your character just suddenly flies feet-first into the air while their staff is behind them is really silly (unless daredevils are secretly practitioners of the force). just adjusting the beginning of the animation a bit to make it look more realistic would be great.

Lotus training dodge – the way the character spins makes no sense, it doesn’t look appealing or practical for throwing multiple daggers at enemies. Perhaps something more dynamic, more Death blossom-like (dagger#3) would be better.

The devs did an amazing job for the 3rd chain of the Staff AA, Punishing strikes, and I’d like for the other skills’ animation to be brought up to par.

Edit: also, the entire weakening charge animation is just a rehashed version of an Ele focus animation…

Zenith.7301:

NaXorb.9732:

Magnito.6187:

NaXorb.9732:

OriOri.8724:

Perma stealth thieves. Its pure bullkitten that someone could decap/cap a point, or even just contest it for that matter, if you can’t even see them. Being forced to lay down an AoE skill, which not all classes even have one that can cover an entire node for that matter, just to “fight” because you can’t see them is stupid and broken.

You aren’t “forced” to put down an AOE just to fight, you can hit a thief in stealth with any skill if you aim it right, even ranged AA chains. Also, the thief cannot fight you back lest he’s risking being revealed and bursted down, so you can just cleave them and whiltle them down just as you would any other “bunker”, since most build surely can out-DPS SR’s healing. Or, you can force them off the point or out of stealth with controll skills .

I challenge you to hit me on lets say… a mesmer. On the legacy mid point, while I’m on a stealthed thief. Not to mention that even if you did land a few hits, I would recover from it easily.

I’d just like to say that I’ve seen this happen plenty of times, a mesmer bursting down a thief while in stealth, there’s no need to prove anything

Yeah, right. You mean finish off a thief after the partial burst already landed before he entered stealth.

Because clones do not walk over and shatter on a stealthed target. Phantasms don’t even react either.

Most classes do not have spammable aoe abilities.

No, the thief entered stealth beforehand and emerged downed from the cumulative damage from the Mesmer.
the clones don’t walk over to the stealthed player, but the shatter still occurs at their PBAoE, and at the Mesmer’s location.
the abilities dont have to be Aoe to hit a stealthed player, mele and ranged attacks all work

Magnito.6187:

NaXorb.9732:

OriOri.8724:

Perma stealth thieves. Its pure bullkitten that someone could decap/cap a point, or even just contest it for that matter, if you can’t even see them. Being forced to lay down an AoE skill, which not all classes even have one that can cover an entire node for that matter, just to “fight” because you can’t see them is stupid and broken.

You aren’t “forced” to put down an AOE just to fight, you can hit a thief in stealth with any skill if you aim it right, even ranged AA chains. Also, the thief cannot fight you back lest he’s risking being revealed and bursted down, so you can just cleave them and whiltle them down just as you would any other “bunker”, since most build surely can out-DPS SR’s healing. Or, you can force them off the point or out of stealth with controll skills .

I challenge you to hit me on lets say… a mesmer. On the legacy mid point, while I’m on a stealthed thief. Not to mention that even if you did land a few hits, I would recover from it easily.

I’d just like to say that I’ve seen this happen plenty of times, a mesmer bursting down a thief while in stealth, there’s no need to prove anything

apharma.3741:

NaXorb, just how do you intend people to hit a thief when they go to a node to try and decap but nothing happens? By this point the thief is in stealth so you have no idea where they are until a small red ring appears somewhere.

Additionally arcane thievery needs a target in order for it to hit, no target and it’s used but does nothing, way to show us all how little you know about the game. Please accept that this is not a good idea for the reasons outlined by the many posters here.

If people go for a node and nothing happens, then it’s for certain that there is someone on the point with them, furthermore, I suggested that an indicator of a “conflict” on the point is implemented as well, to help with clarity.

Also, thank you for pointing my mistake, I meant to say that any skill that doesn’t require a direct target, UNLIKE those such as Arcane Thievery, can hit a player in stealth.

Lastly, I didn’t quite understand what you meant by the small red ring thing, could you elaborate further?

shay.3452:

I can understand how someone might think that this is adding a new layer of depth to pvp and how it is adding more play/counterplay by making reveal more prevalent but I don’t find this sort of depth to be fun.

Seems like it goes against the spirit of pvp when your opponent is actively trying to avoid fighting you the entire time so that they don’t blow their stealth while getting all the benefits of capping/contesting the points.

You can compare this playstyle to the playstyle of a bunker spec say that it is similar because a bunker opponent is not trying to fight you, they are just trying to hold a point. This may be true but bunkers are also not fun to fight against. I remember playing a gs-axe/shield warrior during the dd ele meta and while it was always possible to win the matchup if the ele misplayed, I still dreaded fighting an ele even if I could kill them. This is because it was always an uphill battle for me and it would usually take a long time to kill them.

Similarly with the turret engi meta, you could just use a lot of aoe to try to kill the turrets first or you could rotate around them and so there is some counterplay there. My point is that some things just aren’t fun to fight against even if you can win the fight and I see this suggestion as something I won’t have fun fighting against.

Of course fun is subjective and this is just my perspective on the topic.

Ah, I see, I can understand it not being fun to play against, I agree there.

choovanski.5462:

look. just think about the level of understanding of gw2 pvp you have to have to actually make this thread.

now think about how likely it is that you’re going go be able to convince somone operating at this level that they are wrong.

now ask yourself why you’re bothering.

they’re bothering to make the (game) world a better place

Zenith.7301:

NaXorb.9732:

KrHome.1920:

NaXorb.9732:

You aren’t “forced” to put down an AOE just to fight, you can hit a thief in stealth with any skill if you aim it right, even ranged AA chains. Also, the thief cannot fight you back lest he’s risking being revealed and bursted down, so you can just cleave them and whiltle them down just as you would any other “bunker”, since most build surely can out-DPS SR’s healing. Or, you can force them off the point or out of stealth with controll skills .

Your argumentaton sounds like you play this game since one week.

There is no counterplay to stealthcapping. Teef has the highest mobility in the game. If he gets revealed he shadowsteps away. Put two thieves in one team. The first one baits reveals and AOEs and then disengages. Now the second one takes his place on node while the first one recovers. If the enemy team lands a lucky hit and pressures him he disengages and the first thief returns to the node.

This is a mechanic we should think about? Dumping AOEs and reveals on node hoping to land a lucky punch? Are you serious?

That scenario seems no different than having any other 2 bunkers rotating a point. And I do think this is a mechanic to think about. And it would create a difference between players wasting abilities and players who actually know how to find the stealthed player.
yep, I’m serious

There is no finding a stealthed player lol, much less a thief with 6+ dodges and teleports to avoid being hit by stealth detection from revenants or engineers which are the only classes who can do so.

It just so happens thief beats both of those classes after the nerfs to them.

And bunkers don’t 3 shot people.

you can find a stealthed player if you watch your animations.
I’ve seen more thieves being downed by engies than the other way around, and a well placed burst from rev also does the trick.
If they 3 shot people they’re not bunkers, and go down just as easily

Zenith.7301:

Stealth has no counterplay in this game other than swinging wildly in the air hoping to hit something.

Most classes don’t have skills that can be used without a targeted opponent, let alone ones with low cd and that do enough damage to pressure a stealthed unit out.

Stealth in this game is the most broken it has ever been of any game.

It’s why WvW is invaded by thieves and PU mesmers. Stealth is a spammable invulnerability since it stops most classes from being able to apply damage and allows easy repositioning.

In the case of thief it’s even worse because backstab rewards stealth spam.

Imagine a warrior’s arcing slice or eviscerate having no telegraph or being completely invisible. That’s backstab in a nutshell.

Thieves don’t do this in spvp because this decaps the point for them.

If thieves could use stealth in spvp, they’d be as broken as they are in WvW.

There is plenty counterplay to stealth, not just swinging wildly.
Any skill that can be used without a direct target (anything that is not, for example, like Mesmers’ Arcane Thievery) can be used against a stealthed target, even ranged AAs.
Stealth is not an invulnerability, it does allow for repositioning, but, you can still do damage to the stealthed player.
Stealth is hardly more broken than in other games, unlike most games, GW2 stalth lasts relatively short.
You can predict the backstab as well, if you know the thief has the dagger as the main weapon, it’s certain he will go for a backstab after stealthing, and you can act accordingly.
A proffesion’s main defense mechanic decapping an objective is exactly the reason I started this thread. It seems unfair.
Lastly, I don’t think thieves are broken in WvW, and this change would’t make them broken. The main reason thieves are stronger in WvW is their damage and burst is stronger due to better equipment, not because they can stealth freely.

Edit: corrected my mistake, I meant to say any skill except for the ones like Arcane Thievery)

KrHome.1920:

NaXorb.9732:

You aren’t “forced” to put down an AOE just to fight, you can hit a thief in stealth with any skill if you aim it right, even ranged AA chains. Also, the thief cannot fight you back lest he’s risking being revealed and bursted down, so you can just cleave them and whiltle them down just as you would any other “bunker”, since most build surely can out-DPS SR’s healing. Or, you can force them off the point or out of stealth with controll skills .

Your argumentaton sounds like you play this game since one week.

There is no counterplay to stealthcapping. Teef has the highest mobility in the game. If he gets revealed he shadowsteps away. Put two thieves in one team. The first one baits reveals and AOEs and then disengages. Now the second one takes his place on node while the first one recovers. If the enemy team lands a lucky hit and pressures him he disengages and the first thief returns to the node.

This is a mechanic we should think about? Dumping AOEs and reveals on node hoping to land a lucky punch? Are you serious?

That scenario seems no different than having any other 2 bunkers rotating a point. And I do think this is a mechanic to think about. And it would create a difference between players wasting abilities and players who actually know how to find the stealthed player.
yep, I’m serious

Lucentfir.7430:

Yes make stealth contribute to point capture, and then let everyone feel the pain of WvW roamers over 4 years, with ghost thieves, and PU condi mesmers. More fuel to the thief nerfbat. Do it Anet. -insert Kappa here-

No one said anything about WvW, I suggested the change to PvP only. Yes, it would be too strong with WvW’s huge nodes, but in PvP’s small ones it should not be a problem,

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

NaXorb.9732:

Currently stealth prevents contributing to point capture and holding in PVP, but I’ve been thinking that should not be the case. Unlike other abilities that prevent point contribution, stealth doesn’t make the user invulnerable, just invisible to other players, and the user can still be hit with any and all attacks and abilities.

I realize the main point against it would be that defenders would not be able to tell if there is a person stealthily attacking their point, or attackers that there is a person defending and wondering why it’s not ticking down, but that issue can easily be resolved. An idea I came up with was an indicator on the point when there is a conflict of 2 opposing sides on it, for example, the outer ring of the point could turn white and start blinking.

I would love to see a stealth change come into the PVP, especially because some classes heavily rely on it as their main form of defense, like core Thief and Mesmer.
I’d like to hear others’ opinion on this.

if u want stealth to be able to contest points,

then make them blur like in sc2, so we can see them if we try hard enough.

unlike now they are 100% transparent.

I’ve been thinking about this too, it might also be a good idea.

Vitali.5039:

Something like stepping in a light or fire field apply 3s Revealed should work?

XD I do believe this would be a bit overboard, but, each profession having a reliable and accessible reveal is OK to me.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

If you’re interested, cast shadow refuge and see the proportion of people that can actually force you out of 240 radius without AoE.

Ofc players can always goes against your advice and burn AoE, but then your argument lost its purpose isn’kitten

This is a dead conversation from the start. Game has been like this for a really long time and there’s no reason to change it.

Any smart player will be able to force a thief out of the SR, that’s why it hasn’t been used for years in pvp.
Ofc, you shouldn’t “burn” AOE to find a stealthed player, i never said that. You should keep it cool and predict where they are. This separates the good players and those who panic easily.
I know the game has been like this from the start. But, that doesn’t change the fact that the way it is it put several proffesions at a disadvantage, and hurts build and role diversity

Vitali.5039:

I think that allowing stealthed player to cap/decap will bring a mass Revealed distrubution among all classes.

I’m OK with that. Play and counter-play. In fact, I’d like to see that.

OriOri.8724:

NaXorb.9732:

OriOri.8724:

Perma stealth thieves. Its pure bullkitten that someone could decap/cap a point, or even just contest it for that matter, if you can’t even see them. Being forced to lay down an AoE skill, which not all classes even have one that can cover an entire node for that matter, just to “fight” because you can’t see them is stupid and broken.

You aren’t “forced” to put down an AOE just to fight, you can hit a thief in stealth with any skill if you aim it right, even ranged AA chains. Also, the thief cannot fight you back lest he’s risking being revealed and bursted down, so you can just cleave them and whiltle them down just as you would any other “bunker”, since most build surely can out-DPS SR’s healing. Or, you can force them off the point or out of stealth with controll skills .

How, exactly do you propose to “aim it right” if you can’t even see them? That’s not aiming. That’s blindly swinging at the air and hoping to god the thief is dumb enough to not be watching you and walking in a circle around you.

@Menyus is on a much better track here. If you were allowed to contest a point in stealth, you should only be able to contest it for 1 second after going into stealth. No capping, no decapping in stealth, but you could prevent someone from the other team from capping it for 1 second after entering stealth. Give this a 10-15 sec ICD so the thief can’t just stall forever by popping in and out of stealth.

You can always tell the general location of the thief based on the black powder, refuge and other effects in their wake, even better if they CnD because then you know their exact location.
And how do you “Aim it right”? Try predicting where the thief will be, it’s not that hard.

megilandil.7506:

NaXorb.9732:

OriOri.8724:

Perma stealth thieves. Its pure bullkitten that someone could decap/cap a point, or even just contest it for that matter, if you can’t even see them. Being forced to lay down an AoE skill, which not all classes even have one that can cover an entire node for that matter, just to “fight” because you can’t see them is stupid and broken.

You aren’t “forced” to put down an AOE just to fight, you can hit a thief in stealth with any skill if you aim it right, even ranged AA chains. Also, the thief cannot fight you back lest he’s risking being revealed and bursted down, so you can just cleave them and whiltle them down just as you would any other “bunker”, since most build surely can out-DPS SR’s healing. Or, you can force them off the point or out of stealth with controll skills .

yeah you can cleave empty air like a insane cuz point is contested….. makes sense….
and when you put all your skills on cd thieve apears and oneshots you…. really makes sense

I don’t recall thieves being able to one shot anyone in pvp for a couple of years now (at best against light armored targets you’ll get around 4-5k damage), and besides there’s no need to spam skills. Keep a cool head and AA, once he goes for a backstab he’s out in the open and vulnerable.

Menyus.4610:

The problem would be that team wipes on mid, wiped teams thief goes perma stealth(35 seconds max not perma), and till that time enemy cant decap cos point contribution, so i say this as a thief main that would be op, howerver a slower decapping contribution might be something, cos its kinda annoying u cant go stealth for a sec cos enemy decaps, also if enemy evades or mblind your backstabb, u gonna stay in stealth for so long time the point will be decapped

As I’ve said before, you can still attack and damage the thief if he’s in stealth. Better yet, if the whole enemy team is there at mid, that thief would go down in seconds, even full tank, simply from the AOE and cleave. I don’t see a problem at all.

Heck, I agree, even partial contribution sound better than how it is now.

Poelala.2830:

Imagine this, an invisible player making you park on a node indefinitely because he or she is stealthed 100% of the time and you cannot tell if he or she is near the node or not. Also, being stealthed prevents you from being hit by most attacks in the game (generally speaking, there have been some cases of hitting stealthed players with steal). If you are sealthed an capturing a node, there would be no stopping you.

you can still attack the Thief if you now where he is, even if he is in stealth. Every skill in the game, even ranged AA chains can hit stealthed enemies, there are plenty of ways to deal with this, since thief couldn’t be able to do anything else but stay in stealth, eventually forcing him off the point.

Edit: also, I’ve suggested how it would be possible to tell if a player is stealthed and on a node. its in the fist post

OriOri.8724:

Perma stealth thieves. Its pure bullkitten that someone could decap/cap a point, or even just contest it for that matter, if you can’t even see them. Being forced to lay down an AoE skill, which not all classes even have one that can cover an entire node for that matter, just to “fight” because you can’t see them is stupid and broken.

You aren’t “forced” to put down an AOE just to fight, you can hit a thief in stealth with any skill if you aim it right, even ranged AA chains. Also, the thief cannot fight you back lest he’s risking being revealed and bursted down, so you can just cleave them and whiltle them down just as you would any other “bunker”, since most build surely can out-DPS SR’s healing. Or, you can force them off the point or out of stealth with controll skills .

OriOri.8724:

This would be broken beyond belief on thieves.

I honestly don’t see how it would be broken. Could you be more detailed as in why you think this would be too strong on thieves?

Currently stealth prevents contributing to point capture and holding in PVP, but I’ve been thinking that should not be the case. Unlike other abilities that prevent point contribution, stealth doesn’t make the user invulnerable, just invisible to other players, and the user can still be hit with any and all attacks and abilities.

I realize the main point against it would be that defenders would not be able to tell if there is a person stealthily attacking their point, or attackers that there is a person defending and wondering why it’s not ticking down, but that issue can easily be resolved. An idea I came up with was an indicator on the point when there is a conflict of 2 opposing sides on it, for example, the outer ring of the point could turn white and start blinking.

I would love to see a stealth change come into the PVP, especially because some classes heavily rely on it as their main form of defense, like core Thief and Mesmer.
I’d like to hear others’ opinion on this.

I had an idea a while back: what if SW after pulling in the target kept them in place by knocking down and pulling them back when they attempt to move away from the area where they were pulled, similarly to guardians ring of warding and elite trap, for a short duration.
I think this would make SW comparable to similar skills, since, after all, it is a utility skill with a lengthy cool down, while the others don’t force you to use up a utility slot and are better overall.

Also, I agree it needs to track it’s target like the rest of the ranged skills in the game.
(This also applies to impairing daggers)

ok, so pvp wise, it’s in a relatively good spot, but what about the lack of build diversity and a good part of utilities, traits and skills being under-powered or unusable?

I think the worst offenders are our elites; Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild. DS locks you in a long animation, while dealing little to no damage (once during a fight through the whole duration no one was hit by my DS), and TG npcs bring nothing to the fight and are easily killable.

aside from that, I feel that;
- Ice drake and devourer venom are really bad if not shared with at least 4 people and venoms in general feel too weak considering they take up a utility slot and have a quite long CD
- ambush trap has the same problem as TG, only worse
- Scorpion wire misses half the time, and Impairing daggers sometimes have the same problem (which shouldn’t happen considering the game mechanics)
- pistol #2 is an overall bad weapon skill and has no use
- most short bow skills are clunky and feel awkward
and I kind of feel that most weapon skills are designed weaker with the initiative mechanic in mind, but cost so much initiative that Trickery line is almost completely mandatory, or you are only able to use 2-3 of your weapon skills in a fight before running out of it
I know that thief is supposed to have a strategic, reflexive play style but sometimes it really feels unfair and frustrating compared to other professions
And, considering that GW2 is an MMO with a “no class roles, play as you wish” mentality (at least it said it was) I find the lack of build diversity off-putting, to say the least

I just don’t find the class enjoyable anymore.
The PVP isn’t fun (but that might just be the pvp itself)
And I find quite a bit, too many if you ask me, of traits, utilities and weapon skills weak or just unusable.

But, I don’t know, maybe it’s just me. What do you guys think?