Guild Wars 2

Not sure where else to post this…

I just logged in after a long time not playing and among the birthday mails, each of my 8 or 9 chars received a mail dated 3 weeks ago from player (not GW2 team) “Noble Mess” containing a superior sigil of force — no text or subject line or other explanation/clue.

I don’t know this person, haven’t bought any sigils, and have no idea what’s up.

Searches of the forum and entire net (google/bing/duckduckgo) show nothing.

Very suspicious… My guess is some hack/etc. sending this to everyone, but if so then why no search results?

So, what’s up? If

scirocco.9805:

TyranosEH.3768:

Nick Danger.9821:

Harmadda.5971:

Confirming OP’s traceroute, also from Phoenix AZ via Cox internet:

How do you guys pull out that information?

Use a traceroute utility, with the address of the server (206.127.157.102 — I got this from the OPs post).

I use an old traceroute program from the UO (ultima online) mmorg — UOTrace.exe There are a lot of free programs for this, a quick google will show them. As always, avoid the freeware ones with added ‘features’ (like ASK toolbars, etc.). Only download from reputable sites/etc./yada-yada-yada…

It’s much safer to use the Windows Command Prompt (cmd).
Type: tracert [insert the IP you want to trace]
and press Enter.

Or to be even safer from Linux the command is traceroute [insert the IP you want to trace]

I think you’re both being too paranoid. As long as one exercises basic care (download from reputable site and do ‘custom’ installation to prevent addons like ASK toolbar, third party programs offer benefits. For example, the old UOTrace I’ve been using since ‘96 from Ultima Online (where hackers/etc were common) offers DNS, WHOIS, ping, traceroute, poll, copy to clipboard, and easy configurations (TTL, max hops, timeout, buffer, # retries, etc.). It’s why I keep using it after these past 18 (18! yikes! It’s been that long since UO debuted?!?!) years, long after I gave up on UO.

It’s arguably better for someone who’s not up on traceroute stuff (like the guy I replied to) than command line stuff or delving into Linux distros.

Harmadda.5971:

Confirming OP’s traceroute, also from Phoenix AZ via Cox internet:

How do you guys pull out that information?

Use a traceroute utility, with the address of the server (206.127.157.102 — I got this from the OPs post).

I use an old traceroute program from the UO (ultima online) mmorg — UOTrace.exe There are a lot of free programs for this, a quick google will show them. As always, avoid the freeware ones with added ‘features’ (like ASK toolbars, etc.). Only download from reputable sites/etc./yada-yada-yada…

Confirming OP’s traceroute, also from Phoenix AZ via Cox internet:

Host Name IP Address Hop Ping Time Ping Avg % Loss Pkts r/s Ping best/worst

• Unknown Host * 10.36.112.1 1 10ms
• Unknown Host * 172.21.0.116 2 9ms
• Unknown Host * 70.169.73.90 3 8ms
  chnddsrj01-ae2.0.rd.ph.cox.net 70.169.76.229 4 10ms

ae56.bar1.Phoenix1.Level3.net 4.31.188.61 5 8ms

ae-8-8.ebr1.Dallas1.Level3.net 4.69.133.30 6 151ms

ae-81-81.csw3.Dallas1.Level3.net 4.69.151.149 7 155ms

ae-83-83.ebr3.Dallas1.Level3.net 4.69.151.158 8 154ms

• Unknown Host * 0.0.0.0 9 0ms
  ae-2-2.ebr1.Washington1.Level3.net 4.69.132.86 10 153ms

ae-81-81.csw3.Washington1.Level3.net 4.69.134.138 11 152ms

ae-82-82.ebr2.Washington1.Level3.net 4.69.134.153 12 153ms

ae-44-44.ebr2.Paris1.Level3.net 4.69.137.61 13 151ms

ae-45-45.ebr1.Frankfurt1.Level3.net 4.69.143.133 14 154ms

ae-81-81.csw3.Frankfurt1.Level3.net 4.69.140.10 15 153ms

ae-3-80.edge6.Frankfurt1.Level3.net 4.69.154.138 16 153ms

• Unknown Host * 195.16.161.58 17 152ms

206-127-157-86.plaync.com 206.127.157.86 18 157ms

206-127-157-102.plaync.com 206.127.157.102 19 161ms

• Unknown Host * 0.0.0.0 20 0ms

====

This forum is also slow, traceroute to it isn’t being routed to Paris and Frankfurt:

Host Name IP Address Hop Ping Time Ping Avg % Loss Pkts r/s Ping best/worst

• Unknown Host * 10.36.112.1 1 8ms
• Unknown Host * 172.21.0.118 2 7ms
• Unknown Host * 70.169.73.196 3 12ms
  mcdldsrj01-ae2.0.rd.ph.cox.net 70.169.76.225 4 10ms
  ae57.bar2.Phoenix1.Level3.net 4.28.82.53 5 10ms

ae-0-11.bar1.Phoenix1.Level3.net 4.69.148.113 6 8ms

ae-8-8.ebr1.Dallas1.Level3.net 4.69.133.30 7 32ms

ae-91-91.csw4.Dallas1.Level3.net 4.69.151.161 8 32ms

• Unknown Host * 0.0.0.0 9 0ms
• Unknown Host * 4.59.197.34 10 79ms
• Unknown Host * 0.0.0.0 11 0ms
• Unknown Host * 64.25.32.26 12 40ms
• Unknown Host * 64.25.32.82 13 41ms
• Unknown Host * 64.25.40.16 14 40ms

Selo.1250:

Nick Danger.9821:

TWMagimay.9057 says “…All fire staff skills are aoes. Every. Single. One. Of. Them…”

Selo.1250 replies: “…All staff skills are not AoE, Stoning and Water blast is ST…”

Sigh… Kids these days.

Learn to argue! How can you expect to be taken seriously if you can’t even properly argue?

(do I have to point out your mistake?)

If your rhetorical skills are any indication of your elementalist skills, then it’s no wonder you think eles are underpowered.

It’s fine to argue eles need tweaking or buffing. It’s not fine to use fallacious or otherwise nonesnsical arguments to do so. It only forfeits credibility and causes the devs to roll their eyes and avoid threads.

Learn to read the whole sentence.

I quoted your whole sentence. In response to TWMagimay talking about fire staff skills, you argued against it by talking about all staff skills.

Either you misunderstood him, or you think it’s ok to argue against ‘apples’ by arguing ‘oranges’.

I said that fireball is only small radius AoE, i didnt say that fire arent AoE.

lol

No one said you did — yours here is the Fallacious Argument ‘Strawman’.

What I did say is that in response to TWMagimay talking about fire staff skills (‘apples’), you argued against it by talking about all staff skills (‘oranges’).

Obviously I do need to point out your mistake to you.

You made a rhetorical mistake, either intentionally or unintentionally. When it’s pointed out, instead of acknowledging it or letting it go, you compound it.

Kids these days…

I knew wordretards like you would jump directly on it, thats why i added it.

Ah… it’s the “Selo is just a troll and did it on purpose” defense.

Kids these days…

Eles do need some tweaking and bug fixing. After that, we’ll see if more changes are needed. To get eles to where they need to be it’s important to discuss things logically, accurately, and honestly. Too many posts here are less than helpful in this regard, and that’s why I’m pointing out your rhetorical lapses. Hopefully a better discussion will result and the devs won’t have to wade thru so much dross, making their job easier and our class better.

TWMagimay.9057 says “…All fire staff skills are aoes. Every. Single. One. Of. Them…”

Selo.1250 replies: “…All staff skills are not AoE, Stoning and Water blast is ST…”

Sigh… Kids these days.

Learn to argue! How can you expect to be taken seriously if you can’t even properly argue?

(do I have to point out your mistake?)

If your rhetorical skills are any indication of your elementalist skills, then it’s no wonder you think eles are underpowered.

It’s fine to argue eles need tweaking or buffing. It’s not fine to use fallacious or otherwise nonesnsical arguments to do so. It only forfeits credibility and causes the devs to roll their eyes and avoid threads.

I’m an average player at best, old and slow, so I have to work harder. One thing I’ve been working on is keyboard layout. I ended up getting a G13 (because of the hat stick), but a regular keyboard can work pretty well. My mouse is a plain old MS IntelliMouse (5 buttons).

The G13 has 4 rows of keys, 7 each for the top 2 rows, then 5, then 3. From top to bottom they’re mapped:

Top Row: Call Target; Take Target; 7; 8; 9; 10; ESC
Second Row: 1; 2; strafe left; move forward; strafe right; TAB; Map
Third Row: 3; 4; Switch Weapons; Run; Inventory
Bottom Row: 5; SHFT; CTL

There’s also a 4-way hat and 2 buttons by the thumb. The hat is F1-F4, buttons are Jump and Interact.

Mouse-3 (scroll wheel) is voice, Mouse-4 (under thumb) is Dodge, and Mouse-5 is 6 (heal).

I don’t use Turn Left, Turn Right, or Move Backwards.

The layout is designed so that I can keep my 3 non-pinky fingers on the 3 movement keys and, without interrupting movement, still:
-hit the most used skill keys (1-5) with my pinky finger (plus Call Target and Take Target)
-using my thumb I can switch elements (hat switch), Jump and Interact
-Dodge and Heal (and voice) using the mouse hand (plus the usual Mouse-1 and Mouse-2)

I do have to use the movement key fingers for 7-10 (which are located right above the movement keys) and TAB (immediately to the right), but they’re very close and easy to hit with little movement disruption. I only need to use one of the 3 movement fingers for these, so I can still do 2 of the movements at the same time.

The other keys (Map, Inventory, Run, CTL, SHFT, ESC) aren’t generally needed in combat.

I dropped Turn Left/Right, and also Move Backwards (for now anyways).

The above lets me stay mobile while casting non-stop.

A standard keyboard can do all the above, except the 4-way hat for F1-F4, by moving the movement keys to D (strafe left), F (move forward), and G (strafe right). This gives you enough pinky-reachable keys for 1-5. The G13 is a lot more friendly tho for this.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Nick Danger.9821:

@DiogoSilva First, thanks for the polite and well-reasoned reply!

Second, while I digest your post (it merits taking the time for this), one question…

DiogoSilva.7089:

Anet thinks the Warrior is the best example of balance for this game…

I’ve seen this said but haven’t found the citation, could you (or someone) provide it please
? I’m curious when it was said, what changes may have been made since, etc., so as to put it into proper context, as it’s an important part of your argument.

Thanks!

It was said by Jon Peters, I believe, in this forum, during beta. He said that the warrior was “where the design team wanted him to be” (or something very close to that). I don’t have the exact quote, I’m sorry, and I can’t find it on google either.

I can’t find it either, even searching through his posts here.

Best I found is HERE from 4 July 2012:

“There are a few aspects of every profession that are currently wildly overpowered. If you look around on YouTube, you can see examples of mesmer, engineer, ranger, warrior, elementalist, thief, necromancer, and yes, guardian, being overpowered. It is now our job to bring those things into balance with the rest of the game.”

And…

“Jon Peters: The mesmer is the newest profession as far as getting play in our metagame. This means we will be making more dramatic changes to it than to our more established professions, such as the warrior.”

Another from ~14 Sept 2012

“Keep in mind that some professions are harder to master than others. I believe Necro is the hardest, opinions may vary, but just keep this in mind.” from

Finally, on general balancing, from 13 Sept 2012

Sorry, but your statement “Anet thinks the Warrior is the best example of balance for this game.” needs a citation to verify and put in context.

Even if it holds up, does that mean the ele isn’t balanced? Answer is no. Nor does it show that Anet intends a class to spam 2-3 of its 10+ skills to be successful vs equal skilled foe — which was my point that you responded to.

My point stands — DaedalusDragon’s belief that the ele needs a damage buff is premature at best, and not the best way to address the perceived problem. First, balance the ‘easier’ classes, then see what needs to be done (while fixing ele bugs and tweaking a few things).

When folks are challenged they can put in the effort to buckle down and work harder and improve their game, or put in the effort to make things easier.

@DiogoSilva First, thanks for the polite and well-reasoned reply!

Second, while I digest your post (it merits taking the time for this), one question…

DiogoSilva.7089:

Anet thinks the Warrior is the best example of balance for this game…

I’ve seen this said but haven’t found the citation, could you (or someone) provide it please
? I’m curious when it was said, what changes may have been made since, etc., so as to put it into proper context, as it’s an important part of your argument.

Thanks!

DaedalusDragon.3754:

…Why should I have to fight people against lower skilled players than my own just so I can compete?…

You shouldn’t.

…And I honestly think there needs to be a damage increase…

The problem most often cited here is that some classes can mindlessly spam 2-3 skill and win vs an equally skilled ele — ie that ele is ‘harder’ to play.

Serious question — do you think it is Anet’s intention that a class can mindlessly spam 2-3 of their 10+ skills to win vs an equally skilled foe?

If you answer ‘yes’, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

If you answer ‘no’, the any fix has to start with changing the ‘easier’ class(es).

Any changes to ele would have to be considered after the changes to the ‘easier’ class(es).

So your belief in the need for a damage buff is premature at best, and not the best way to address your perceived problem.

I think there’s more than one way to skin the ele cat, and that that’s by design, and that that’s a good thing.

Having viable choices is good game design.

Salute! for the guide.

Bigger Salute!! and Respect!!!! for taking care of your grandfather!

Am I correct in inferring that you don’t switch attunements very often (your being a “mono-element spec” suggests this)?

If so, to get the most out of eles, they seem designed to switch attunements fairly often. Not doing so would decrease your effectiveness (I’m guessing that you’d lose more from fewer switching than you gain by specializing, but it’s just my guess). If you’re ok with this (for rp, or you’re doing fine as it is, or…), or I’ve misunderstood, then never mind

If you’re primarily in earth, have you considered the Strength of Stone trait (10% more damage when in earth), or Geomancer’s Alacrity (earth weapon skills recharge 20% faster?

Not sure what you’d give up for those — Earth’s Embrace (Armor of Earth when damage reaches 50%)? It’s got a 90 second cooldown, which is relatively long.

Salt Stone gives 5% more damage to bleeding foes, but if you’re primarily in earth, then wouldn’t the 10% extra damage from Strength of Stone outweigh it?

Bleeding stacks in intensity, so the Serrated Stones trait (bleeding lasts 20% longer) seems useful, perhaps more useful than Salt Stone (20% increased duration > straight 5% damage, if one of those 2 were to be dropped)? Your two choices do synergize well together, but may not be the most damage compared to the mentioned choices.

It’s an interesting build, and earth seems overlooked by many eles. Let us know how things work out as you level please.

Alberel Leonhart.9640:

…So by your own definition of the ‘ideal’ [equal skill levels draw, superior skill wins)] the profession is broken…

No.

I separated this out because it highlights 2 important points.

First, because there’s imbalance you’re assuming it means the ele is broken, instead of the other class(es) being the broken ones. That’s the wrong way to look at it. My proof is the belief that AN does not want a class to be effective by mindlessly spamming only 2-3 of its 10+ skills.

Second, when you said in the same post “…People don’t even want the profession ‘dumbed down’…” that’s exactly what the result of your first point would be.

I’ll go thru the reason why point by point.

-if it’s the ele that’s broken, then it’s the ele that would be ‘fixed’
-the problem is that some classes can mindlessly spam 2-3 skills where an ele can’t
-if you’re going to ‘fix’ the ele and not the other classes, then you’re going to have to make the ele like the other classes
-making it so the ele can achieve a draw against equal skilled foes by only using 2-3 skill is dumbing it down from its present state.

So not only are some arguing here for dumbing down the ele, you are one of said folks, even tho you claim the contrary.

Alberel Leonhart.9640:

…The fact is as it stands right now a low skill <insert profession here> can kill a medium to high skilled ele.

Disagree.

Given equal skill, some classes take less effort to win vs an ele. That’s not anywhere the same as what you said. What you claim is not a given.

Those of you parading around claiming to be god tier elementalists…

This is obviously not directed at me because as I’ve previously said, I’m below average skill.

People don’t even want the profession ‘dumbed down’

Actually, some do are argue that in this very thread, and it’s to them I’m directing my posts.

…they just want the current complexity of playing the profession to be adequately rewarded.

No reasonable person is arguing otherwise.

Please re-read that last sentence. And again. (see I can do that too… annoying and unhelpful isn’t it?)

…We just want numbers tweaked to bring us up to par…

sigh…

No responsible person is arguing for imbalance. The argument is how balance is achieved — by dumbing down the ele or by ‘smartening up’ the ‘easier’ classes.

That’s my point, nothing else. If you’re arguing something else then direct that to whoever makes that argument, as I am not. I’ve been quite clear what I am and am not arguing here.

Do you realize you contradict yourself in your opening argument? You first say “…most people are actually discussing the low skill vs low skill…” then your next sentence says “… a low skill <insert profession here> can kill a medium to high skilled ele.”

First it’s people are discussing low skill vs low skill, then you discuss low skill vs med to high skill…

DiogoSilva.7089:

…(the solution can be either to give elementalists a few of those skills, or nerf all others from other professions – btw, the first solution won’t dumb down elementalists, unlike what some people think, as they’ll still be as hard to master as ever)…

You’re arguing that by giving the ele 2-3 skills that they can easily and mindlessly spam to win a match (against an equally skilled foe), that that’s not dumbing them down _because+ they still have the option to use several times that many skills for the same result?

Making it easier to achieve equal results isn’t dumbing things down, because they can still do it in a harder way?!?!

We’ll have to agree to disagree on this.

Alberel Leonhart.9640:

…A badly played ele should not suck, they should be able to get by like a badly played thief or a badly played warrior. A well played ele should be able to do incredibly well just like a well played warrior or a well played thief…

The design goal should be:
-equally low skilled players draw
-equally high skilled players draw
-low skill vs high skill loses (the greater the skill disparity, the greater the loss)

Dumbing down the ele makes the third option less likely or impossible, which is why any ‘fix’ (beyond bug fixing/tweaks/etc.) should be to ‘smarten up’ the easier classes and NOT dumb down the ele.

Elric of Grans.7684:

Sorry, I honestly do not understand your post.

Let me try again.

1- Eles could use some tweaking (bug fixes/etc.), as I’ve said several times already.

2- Low skill players of some classes can get equal or better results by using only 2-3 of their skills against equally low skilled ele players who must use more of their skills.

3- This disparity needs ‘fixing’.

4- The ‘fix’ should be to make the ‘easier’ classes ‘harder’ (more like eles), not make the ele more like the ‘easier’ classes.

It’s obvious you don’t understand my arguments because your replies are not based upon what I’ve argued.

First:

I do not believe the majority of Elementalist players want the class dumbed down.

I never said ‘majority’ (I said “…a distressing number…”) nor did I say you said that, so this statement is not based upon any argument anyone is making.

Second:

Changed? Yes, but change is not dumbed down. Fixing bugs does not dumb the class down.

No one has said that fixing bugs dumbs down the class, so your statement is, again, not based on any argument anyone is making.

Arguing against what I say is fine, arguing against what I haven’t said is not.

I have said several times that eles can use some tweaking and bug fixes. I have also said that the ‘easier’ classes should be make more like eles, not that eles should be made more like the easier classes.

Put together — tweak the eles but don’t dumb them down to the lowest common skill denominator.

Have we now achieved understanding?

DiogoSilva.7089:

Nick Danger: See it this way: when six professions are at a better state, and two (elem, necro) are at a worse state, what should you do,…

Good game design says you should follow the design goal.

What is the design goal — is it that some classes can get by with only using 2-3 of their 10+ skills, or that each skill should be useful (in certain situations/combos)? It’s pretty obvious that for AN it’s the latter.

…nerf everything because of two professions, or buff two because of everything else?

Balancing by making all classes as ‘hard’ as an ele isn’t “nerfing” anything, it’s making the ‘easier’ classes harder.

Have dervs overnerfed two professions, or have dervs overbuffed six of them?

Looking at GW1 and AN’s talks about GW2 it’s pretty obvious that some classes being able to be competitive by merely spamming 2-3 skills is not their design goal.

What is the “norm”? Aren’t two profesions out of eight the exception, and not the rule?

Let’s apply this logic to see if it holds up. Your car has 4 tires, 3 are flat. Does that mean the fix is to flatten the 4th tire, or fix the 3 flat ones?

It’s not the relative numbers, it’s the design goal, that determines what’s in need of ‘fixing’.

Elric of Grans.7684:

…I am not sure that many players are calling for the Elementalist to be dumbed down…

I see a distressing number of posters saying the ele is either broken (no amount of effort/skill lets an ele match an ‘easy’ class) or that it takes significantly more effort to achieve the same effect as some other classes.

I see these folks then call for ‘fixes’ for the ele (ie make eles easier). I can’t remember seeing any of these folks calling for ‘fixes’ for the ‘easier’ classes (ie make the ‘easier’ classes ‘harder’) as their preferred method for achieving balance. Have I missed these, and if so, do they outnumber the ‘make eles easier’ posters?

When challenged, folks can respond in several ways, including expending the effort to buckle down and improve their game, or expending the same effort to complain to have the game made easier. Bringing the ‘easier’ classes up to eles level is the former, advocating bringing the ele down is the latter.

Veenix.5248:

This probably stems from the Animations.

I cant overstate this enough, But skills like Lava Font, that takes far to long to build up and almost literally tells people don’t stand here before it starts to deal damage. Meteor showers random damage locations, Burning speeds blast radius makes it very hard to land in an open field due to the damage only being on the end location. Dragon’s Tooth 4 second animation. Churning Earth’s long cast time practically forces you to use lightning flash just so you can hit people that back pedal out of the radius. Eruption like lava font advertises players to GTFO before it even does damage.

I think thats the underlying issue with Elementalist atm. Ground targeting and our heavy reliance on it. Do we never land skills? no. But the effort taken to just get skills to land on half competent players then coming out with lesser then average damage is a problem.

Am not saying it should be instant, just faster then it is now. I get it people need some time to react. But as it is now Elementalist are penalized just for players, playing the game. AkA just moving, not dodging just moving.

That’s a good point.

Two observations:
-First, good game design balances effort&reward, so a “can’t miss” skill (less effort) should have less reward than a “can be avoided” skill (more effort).
-Second, not all skills should be “can’t miss”. Having some be “avoidable” allows the use of stuns/slows/knockdowns/etc. to make the “avoidable” skills hit. This increases the effect of player skill — a good thing. All classes should be ~balanced in this, of course (ie no class should have significantly more of their skills be “avoidable”).

Thank you for your polite and well-reasoned post!

DiogoSilva.7089:

…almost all professions are so strong, than they can do most pve and most casual pvp with 2-3 skills.

Those professions are the ones that are ‘broken’.

One of the biggest complaints about the elementalist in this forum, is that we must use double of our skills for lesser results.

First, eles can get ~equal results with ‘extra’ effort.

The questions are two-fold:
-first, is ‘too much’ effort required to play an ele well? There’s a number of examples of people playing an ele well. Also, the game is still new and we’re still working out bugs/strategies/etc. So no, eles don’t require ‘too much’ effort.

-second, how should eles required effort be balanced? Dumb down eles? Make the ‘too easy’ classes harder? Some combination of both?

To decide this, I’m going by the assumption that no class should, as you say, be able to do “…most pve and most casual pvp with 2-3 skill…” AN gave us classes with more skills than that, and hopefully intends all skills to have a purpose/use in competitive fights.

It’s not about the elementalist not being able to achieve its goals. The elementalist can achieve its goals. It just can’t do it as efficiently as other professions.

You understand you’re arguing to dumb down the ele right? You’re not arguing to make the ‘too easy’ classes harder.

Why is that? Why is your solution to make eles ‘easier’ instead of the other classes equally ‘hard’?

@Sharpe First, thank you for the polite and well-reasoned reply.

Sharpe.1485:

…everyone should be able to make one [ele], and play it confortably – mastering it however – should be something for the extremely good players and dedicated to contend with.

Agreed. I think the current ele does this.

And right now that doesnt happen.

Disagree. Low skill players can play eles, hightly skilled players can make an ele shine. That’s good. The problem is…

Take sPvP for instance – any average joe that goes into PvP with an ele, without much thought into stats, traits, just gets completely obliterated in 2 or 3 seconds.

…the problem is that some classes are too easy to play.

The solution isn’t to radically alter the ele (ie make it easier), but to radically alter the ‘too easy’ classes to be like the ele, where skill shines.

I suck at playing eles, an average skill ele player will completely obliterate me. I like that, it gives me motivation/opportunity to improve. Don’t dumb down the ele to my level, make me raise my game.

Sharpe.1485:

So much typing and you’ve [Arheundel] already shot your argument to pieces in the first sentence.

“Not everybody can play ele” Now.. if you weren’t so full of yourself, you’d realize that this is an MMO, people of all skill levels will play it, casuals, hardcores, etc.. and when a class can only be playable by the elitist minority…

This is the fallacious argument Hyperbole.

Going from “Not everybody can play ele” to “…only playable by the elitist minority…” is twisting what Arheundel said to a ridiculous extreme to make your argument. That forfeits credibility and cedes the argument.

It’s fine to argue against what he says. It’s not fine to argue against what he doesn’t say.

And the Ad Hominem attack (the ‘so full of yourself’ bit) is uncalled for.

War Monk.5120:

…All classes should require about the same level of skill for the same level of results…

Agreed.

The question then is ‘do you lower the ele or raise the ’easier’ classes’?

Sharpe said “This however does not mean that the elementalist isn’t in dire need of a revision.”

The ele would only be “…in dire need of a revision.” if it’s to be dumbed down. If he wanted the other classes ‘smartened up’ then he’d have said so.

Don’t lower the bar to the lowest common denominator. Raise the bar on the too-easy classes, to where player skill shows.

Difficulty should be sufficient so that player skill shows — great skill should yield great results.

Folks get used to single player games where even the least skilled can kick butt. In MMOs, by definition, half the players are of below average skill — quite a shock to learn that the hard way. How folks react to this challenge is telling. Do they buckle down and work to improve their game, or do the instead put their effort into lobbying to make the game easier so their lack of skill has little effect?

I think the calls to close the thread are because Kryos et al are convincingly demonstrating that the ele isn’t weak and only needs tweaking — ‘If you can’t beat them, shut them up’.

When facing a challenge, people respond in several ways. One is to buckle down and work to improve their game. Another is to put their effort into complaining and lobbying for the bar to be lowered.

It’s interesting that many of the complainers will denigrate videos of eles winning (their foes are incompetent) while accepting at face value videos of eles getting stomped (ie the “This should not be allowed (Full Stop)” thread). Doing so cedes credibility and forfeits the argument.

Finally, for sake of argument, let’s assume eles have to work harder than some other professions for equal results (there is merit in this claim). What’s the solution? The choice is to either dumb down the ele or to ‘smarten up’ the other professions. If one believes that player skill should determine the match then the latter is the answer. Those who are complaining and calling for the ele to be made more like the ‘easier’ classes are saying they don’t think player skill should determine a match, because by definition, dumbing down makes skill less important.

Cliff short notes:
-thread is still worthwhile
-when challenged buckle down and work to improve your game
-to be credible, be even-handed
-make other classes as ‘hard’ to play as eles