Guild Wars 2

Offcourse by using Steady Greatsword, it will remove variability from my experiment. However, Aseyhe has statistically proven that the difference in my result occurring by pure chance is 1 in 15000.

In PvE and WvWvW you use a weapon that is NOT STEADY thus by using non steady weapon, you can see the difference when you are actually playing the game not just under test setting and PvP. After 30 tries using non steady weapon, the average damage difference between the two race was a little more than 10%. Surely, after 30 tries using unsteady weapon, if two races have absolutely no difference, they should have similar average damage.

Maybe you haven’t read my data from previous page so I will re-post it here again

Human – Norn
1054 – 1141
1061 – 1111
1017 – 971
1077 – 847
1100 – 1147
952 – 817
931 – 1130
1010 – 833
1054 – 910
1068 – 1094
1135 – 860
1095 – 774
966 – 1032
1062 – 1240
1088 – 804
1096 – 747
995 – 704
1038 – 660
1128 – 972
1025 – 695
1051 – 892
1015 – 854
973 – 938
1029 – 1079
1045 – 748
1199 – 1301
1080 -720
1064 – 799
1118 – 956
988 – 841

Human Average for 30 tries: 1050
Norn Average for 30 tries: 912

Human damage range: 973 – 1199
Norn damage range: 660 – 1301

If you still think that all this differences are caused solely by the variability of non-steady weapon, I don’t know what to say. Again, we use non-steady weapon in PvE and WvWvW, and this data shows the difference when playing anything other than PvP.

@Trungalung

The main point of this thread was that there is a difference when people use Melee Assist Turned ON. This prevents me from getting inside enemy and when this is on, there is a damage difference about 10%. Try it with Melee Assist on and post the result please! I have already posted sample size of 30 on page 1. As I mentioned like million times in this thread alone, I prefer it being in turned on for numerous reasons.

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As for the “Steady Greatsword” argument the problem is that the actual weapon in game is NOT STEADY. If a sample size of 30 had a difference of 10% in damage, it certainly means there is a statistical difference between the two race when you are playing PvE or WvWvW.

Aseyhe.2948:

Also, I’d be more confident if you were counting the number of hits. At least then we’d know for certain whether that’s the source of the issue.

That is a good suggestion but I found it would be too much work to calculate for 30 replications of both character thus total of 60 replications. I could do this but for now, I am busy leveling up the re-rolled Human Guardian.

Although it is an educated guess, I think it is clear that the damage difference should be due to less projectiles being hit because this is the exact reason why standing inside the enemy deals more damage than standing outside the enemy. Another reason I believe this is true is because when I see less projectiles flying on the screen, the damage is higher. Norn usually has at least one more projectile flying on the screen compared to Human.
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P.S. Do you guys know how to report a bug to ANet? I think this difference is not intentional and must be reported.

TimeBomb.3427:

A few things:
- As said before, this isn’t possible due to the same hitboxes between races. Their may be different animations between the races due to size differences, but I HIGHLY doubt the actual technical projectiles are different between races.

- As said before, check the combat log for per-projectile damage, not overall damage.

- Use steady weapons in the mists to test, not normal PvP weapons. Steady weapons have the same min and max damage, and thus the damage of your attacks will never change.

1. I am not saying that actual projectile itself is different. Instead, there is a difference in projectile randomness between Norn and Human. Projectiles of Human tends to hit the target more often than Norn.

2. Are you suggesting that the overall damage that is displayed when the skill is used is not accurate? This damage is supposed to be showing the whole damage the skill has dealt including both normal AOE hit and projectiles hit. If this number is high, than it clearly means the damage done is high as well. Please explain me why I should look at combat log instead of overall damage displayed because I don’t get it.

3. I have done the Whirling Wrath 30 times for both Norn and Human. Statistically speaking, if Norn and Human have absolutely no difference, they should have similar average damage after 30 replications. This is not the case here and the evidence are the difference in average damage (1050 vs 910) and general trend in the damage numbers where Norn’s damage seems to be much random and lower than Human’s

I haven’t played PvP yet so I am not sure what steady weapon is but I used the free “PvP Greatsword” from the Weapon vendor at the Heart of the Mists for both Norn and Human Guardian.

I deleted one of my lowest level character just to do this test

Test Setup:
- Tested at Heart of the Mists on Heavy Target Golem
- Used normal PvP Gears and Greatsword
- Trait points were not spent at any where
- Melee Assist option was turned ON which prevents me from going inside the enemy
- Tallest Human and Shortest Norn were used
- Number recorded are the number that appear on screen when Whirling Wrath is performed
- Whirling Wrath tooltip indicates that it does 1251 damage
- Sample size is 30

Results:
Human – Norn
1054 – 1141
1061 – 1111
1017 – 971
1077 – 847
1100 – 1147
952 – 817
931 – 1130
1010 – 833
1054 – 910
1068 – 1094
1135 – 860
1095 – 774
966 – 1032
1062 – 1240
1088 – 804
1096 – 747
995 – 704
1038 – 660
1128 – 972
1025 – 695
1051 – 892
1015 – 854
973 – 938
1029 – 1079
1045 – 748
1199 – 1301
1080 -720
1064 – 799
1118 – 956
988 – 841

Human Average for 30 tries: 1050
Norn Average for 30 tries: 912

Human damage range: 973 – 1199
Norn damage range: 660 – 1301

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Conclusion:
Obviously, there is a difference in average damage between Human (1050) and Norn (912). This is more than 10% difference and I think its a huge difference especially when ANet is advertising that Race is only different in cosmetic aspect. More important finding is the huge difference in damage range between Human and Norn. The lowest damage for Human was 973 compared to the Norn which was 660. The highest damage for Human was 1199 compared to the Norn which was 1301. The fact that Norn has more variance in Whirling Wrath damage supports my initial hypothesis that the projectiles fly more randomly resulting in extremely low or high damage. If you look at the numbers in result, you can clearly see that Norn’s damage is very random and usually lower than Human’s damage which is consistent and high. For example, there are multiple 700-900 damages for Norn where as the lowest damage for Human was 975.

I am not sure why my data is different from BAMBOO’s data though. I don’t know why his average damage was in the range of 700-800 while mine was around 1000.

This test is enough proof for me to delete my level 31 Norn guardian and re-roll as Human Guardian. Its depressing and I doubt this issue will be fixed within few months.

I totally understand that Melee assist turned off might minimize the difference in damage but I really do prefer it being on and want to play with it on because enemy usually move around and it is difficult to always position right inside the enemy especially if it is PvP. This means for person like me, I am at huge disadvantage to play Norn character.

@ Aseyhe

Would you be able to perform the same test by creating smallest Human guardian with Melee Attack Assist enabled? I am sure it will land more projectiles onto the target than max female charr. I was able to visually see this when we did our testing side by side: more projectiles hit the target

@ BAMBOO

That was an awesome test. Well done!

I have one request though. Would you be able to run the same test using Melee assist turned ON so that you cannot go inside the enemy? Personally, I prefer it being turned on so that I don’t run thru the enemy and miss my attack. I am sure there are many others like me.

When we conducted a test, we were both playing with this option turned on (not being able to go inside enemy). And because of that, the difference in damage was much more significant. Assuming that you didn’t delete those test characters you created, it should only take you few min. I wish I can do it but my character slot is full.

As for the damage, I was referring to the number that appears when you perform Whirling Wrath, not DPS. Correct me if I am wrong but that number should be the total damage I dealt with Whirling Wrath. I was suggesting that even with crit chance of 40%, I was not able to do the damage listed on the tooltip where as Human was able to deliver full damage listed on tooltip with only 7% crit. So I am very positive that Human with 40% crit chance will do much more damage than what tooltip says.

@ Red Falcon

Please please read the thread. I am writing this multiple times by now.

1. We were both level 26 when we tested so there isn’t any difference in “spec”. Also we had near identical gears.

2. I am not sure about the blue discs having the same size and shape. What I am 100% sure is that the Norn disks are flying everywhere compared to Human hence less damage.

3. The test, obviously, was conducted under the exact same condition. Melee assist was both turned on so that we cannot go inside the enemy. We both approached to the enemy as close as possible. Enemy and our characters were both stationary.

4. We conducted a test simultaneously side by side using laptop and desktop so that we can see the differences clearly.

5. Can any of you guys actually test this instead of flat out saying this is not possible? I know this shouldn’t be possible. That’s why this is a bug that must be fixed. Someone else please do a test to confirm this.

This should be easily testable. Create shortest Human guardian and tallest Norn guardian and test the Whirling Wrath skill on dummy at lvl 2. My chracter slot is full already so I can’t do it.

@Lysico

Not sure if you are troll or not but read the thread more carefully. I KNOW there is NO difference in SKILL DAMAGE between race. However, due to size difference, lending full skill damage on single target is hard for bigger character.

Its like firing a same number of rifle rounds where person A mostly hits the target but person B miss target most of the time thus not doing enough damage.

Exact same target and we were stationary (as close as we can get to the enemy and used the skill while both the character and enemy were standing still). Basically, identical setting.

We replicated about 15 times each and the number above are the average from the result.

Apparently, there is a huge disadvantage to larger character regarding the Whirling Wrath damage. The projectiles fly everywhere instead of hitting the target if character is large. And its not small damage I am talking about. My Norn Guardian is doing only 60-70% of damage compared to Human.

Thank god I didn’t realize this at lvl 80 because I would be so mad. Since I am at low level, I will just re-roll as Human guardian and not worry about it. Still this is ridiculous and should be fixed ASAP. How do we report a bug to ANet?

Velisong.9543:

Same stats on gear ( e.×. berserker’s v.s. valkyrie), traited/builds are the same? power is the same? and especially crit damage, because i often 7k crits on my whirling wrath. and, while i have only 41% crit chance without food, i have over 80 crit damage. Might be a issue of hit boxes, may be testing inaccuracies due to rng, etc.

We were both level 26 when we tested it. By this, I can ignore any gear difference and trait/build difference. As I mentioned in the thread, we have similar gear and it is not like gear is hugely different at level 26.

Even not considering the gear/trait/build, it is a matter of how much damage do you deliver compared to the tooltip? My Norn does about 60-70% of tooltip damage conpared to 90-100% tooltip damage of Human.

Eveningstar.6940:

Hi Nismoz,

Yes, this is an issue that ties in to several Guardian abilities. Size differences subtly change the efficacy of Guardian PBAoEs, and the effect is more evident in extreme size differences (say, Norn vs. Asura). So Whirling Wrath’s radius of effect scales with a Norn’s hitbox. The bigger the Norn, the wider the area, the smaller the chances of consecutively hitting a single nearby enemy.

Mace #3 and Shield #5 scale with Norn size as well, providing a wider area of cover, so being a Norn Guardian does come with some benefits.

Another poster on this forum—I’m sorry; I can’t recall your name—suggested turning off the Melee Attack Assist option from your in-game settings, which prevents you from running through an enemy’s hitbox. If you position yourself carefully enough inside the enemy’s hitbox, you’ll see more hits from your Whirling Wrath.

If ANet has commented at all on size differences affecting skill radius, I have not seen it yet.

Good luck.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I have read numerous posts about the hitbox of all race being equal. Did it change thru recent patch?

I thought ANet wanted to minimize the race imbalance. I can see that larger AOE defensive skill being beneficial (on second thought, it does not really benefit myself. It is a benefit to my teamates instead) but the disadvantage from reduced Whirling Wrath damage easily overthrow the advantage because this skill is the most important and often used skill for Greatsword build. Also damage difference is quite large to simply ignore it. (My Norn char should do 1400 damage but does only 900 damage on average)

In PvP environment, I can’t see myself carefully aligning with enemy just to lend all the projectiles on him when there are so many other things I have to care about. I really think this is huge disadvantage.

It seems like ANet knows the issue. Are they planning to fix this or they think it is fine the way it is.

@BlueprintLFE

w/ sarcasm I suppose? So you are suggesting that if there is indeed a bug where due to size difference, projectiles fly more randomly, I should not care about it?

D I V A.6018:

I am lvl 80 fully geared and I get up to 3,5k on heavy armored mobs/champions…

Maybe you might consider turning off “auto-targeting” in your options, for WW you are required to stand “inside” your enemy for the projectiles to hit as often as intended!
DIVA

EDIT: I am Norn.

I see what you are suggesting. What I am trying to say is that Human guardian is able to lend most of the projectiles on to the target where as Norn guardian miss many of them under same setting; using auto-targeting while not being inside the enemy.

I wish I know how to record video and edit them to post on Youtube.

As you have mentioned, you do 600-1000 regular damage which is on average below the tooltip damage. From my testing, human guardian was able to deliver full tooltip damage without a crit. Also, he definetely had much less blue tornado thing flying everywhere like my Norn guardian. I think there is a bug with the skill regarding character size.

Any Norn player wanna chime in?

What does you tooltip say for the damage? I think this is size issue so charr should technically suffer this problem as well. If you don’t crit, do you do the damage listed on the tooltip? As a reference, Human guardian was usually able to do the tooltip damage without crit.

I have been playing with my friend for few days. He rolled as a Human guardian while I rolled as a Norn guardian. At one point, I realized that my Whirling Wrath does much less damage than his.

We both have same damage listed on the tooltip of the skill. Also, I have 40% crit chance while he has 7% crit chance and we have pretty much similar level gear.

When we did some testing, side by side on the same enemy, I was usually below the tooltip damage even with 40% crit. However, his Human guardian was able to give the full damage listed on tooltip with only 7% crit chance. Truly Ridiculous.

We tried to find the reason behind this and it seems like for some reason, Norn’s Whirling Wrath miss the target more since the blue tornado like things are spread more randomly where as human guardian’s mostly hit the target.

Can any of you guys confirm this by comparing Whirling Wrath between different Race?

I am extremely mad at this. Now I know why my Guardian was doing much less dmg than his. I don’t want to reroll as Human guardian so I hope this gets fixed ASAP.