Guild Wars 2

Don’t expect a non-subscription game to have the same customer service as a subscription game….

You can’t have your cake and eat it, too.

Sky.9347:

Omega.8573:

Kazim.2043:

Omega.8573:

And also you guys keep making these invisible references of “you shouldn’t get better gear for playing more so you can steamroll all the players”. What are you actually referencing? Give me one example in the current MMO genre, and I’ll tell you why that’s a bad example.

The point is there are more than 40 MMOs out there in which you can get better gear and streamroll others (mostly Korean though). GW 2 is one of few, which skill > gear.

Why not playing one of those 40 games instead of trying to change what this game is?

Again – your answer is incredibly ambiguous. Name one that isn’t korean.

Why? Does it matter which game you go play once you leave GW2 because there aren’t any stat advantages you can get on new players?

WoW does it, Rift does it, Aion does it, SWtOR does it, and so on and so forth.

MOST if not ALL modern MMOs do it. They’ve all got a nice endless gear grind for you, if that’s what you want.

It’s very ignorant of you to think the reason we want upgrades is because we can roll over other characters. We like progression, and you don’t. There is a clear philosophical difference there. And that’s fine if this game doesn’t want something like that, but then don’t call it an MMORPG, because that’s mis-representing the genre.

And for the record – WoW does not do it. People who think that only played the game for a year when burning crusade was released and then quit in frustration because they died a lot. And without any sense of threat or danger, where’s the excitement? Certainly not in GW2…

Kazim.2043:

Omega.8573:

And also you guys keep making these invisible references of “you shouldn’t get better gear for playing more so you can steamroll all the players”. What are you actually referencing? Give me one example in the current MMO genre, and I’ll tell you why that’s a bad example.

The point is there are more than 40 MMOs out there in which you can get better gear and streamroll others (mostly Korean though). GW 2 is one of few, which skill > gear.

Why not playing one of those 40 games instead of trying to change what this game is?

Again – your answer is incredibly ambiguous. Name one that isn’t korean.

Can I just say that the reason DAoC subs slowly died was because more and more people went to WoW? It had nothing to do with DAoC being bad. I still have yet to find pvp as engaging as DAoC. I miss the days where there were no global cooldowns, casting was interrupted, and you couldn’t cast while moving.

And also you guys keep making these invisible references of “you shouldn’t get better gear for playing more so you can steamroll all the players”. What are you actually referencing? Give me one example in the current MMO genre, and I’ll tell you why that’s a bad example.

willwill.9318:

Because realm ranks, make all the difference.. if there was realm ranks, lower pop would still be out there fighting when losing

RIGHT OR WRONG?

This is true. This is the main problem right now – the game tries to be so balanced that when there is a small group verse a larger group, there is absolutely nothing you can do to win.

It’s not a simple question. How do you know you won’t be bored by then?

Oh I so remember spending hours at work making my new spell-crafting template for DAoC.

I agree with Tarnin – DAoC is too complicated for people who jump into the game today. However, the more complicated something is, generally the deeper you can delve into it, which is kind of the whole point of an MMORPG.

I’m not saying the progression mechanic has to “break the game” and make people who farm stuff overpowered (which btw, has been fixed in WoW, so unless you can come up with another example…). But it absolutely needs more of an incentive. Even if it was to be competitive 8v8, 5v5, 3v3, or whatever fights with ranked ladder matches. To this day, I have not found a game that gives the unique experience of running with 1-7 people as a group hunting other groups.

Sky.9347:

I didn’t intend to be insulting, but that is how I see it. I also wasn’t insulting your real life… just pointing out that the way I understand it does tie back into your real human psyche.

For example… someone who is very lonely might be the same person who seeks to garner attention and “fame” in an MMO. This may or may not be true, of course, but in my experience it has been true more often than not. Nothing wrong with it.

I disagree that a game will get stale without your character becoming ever more powerful. I have played TF2 since it was released, and sometimes STILL play it today. I don’t play it because I have an attachment to my characters (which would imply I used it as an escape from my real life), but because the game is fun.

I commend the way sPvP in this game was done. It is a big deal for me.

I know W3 has elements of gear progression and some minor grind, but that’s okay because even a level 1 can compete with a level 80, and furthermore there is no great disparity among level 80s.

Any system that includes a mechanism for a continuous growth of power will suffer from several MAJOR problems as time goes on. I won’t list them all here now, but I can if need be.

You can’t compare an FPS to an MMO. The entire experience is different – in an FPS, you’re stats and kills/deaths actually matter in the fight, the matches are shorter, and it’s a small-man vs. small-man. In WvW, you’re 1 of two hundred players zerging around in a field. You could log off and nobody would notice. You receive no recognition for anything you do other than your own “pat on the back” (not saying you need recognition, but infamy also made DAoC the game it was – but that’s a whole other argument).

I think as long as the progression doesn’t overpower characters like it did back in vanilla WoW, there’s not a huge problem with including it.

krakenstar.1674:

Omega.8573:

purplestone.8364:

Omega.8573:

Sky.9347:

“Titles, badges, karma, money, experience=skill points at 80, server pride. How do you not earn anything in WvW?”

Because for them, it isn’t about that. It’s about being able to steamroll any newer players easily with inflated stats because they’ve been doing it longer. It’s about finding a sense of pride in creating a character persona that grows to be powerful, like a god among men.

It’s a sense of entitlement, and of retribution for the things they do not or can not have in their real life. They don’t want rewards, they want rewards that put them in a class above brand new players.

lol. Got owned a lot in other MMOs, did we? You people complain about gear in games like WoW, but it’s honestly just an excuse for playing bad. I beat better geared people ALL THE TIME. It’s not hard – you have to play smart. In DAOC, I beat incredibly high realm rank assassin’s with a lowbie RR minstrel without a pet (one of the hardest classes in the game to do this, btw). Don’t just jump to conclusions like “oh he wants gear so he can facerollwinlolgg”.

Don’t believe me? Look on youtube for a video of a WoW rogue killing plenty of people 1v1 with lvl 1 gear on at 80 v 80 (I forget the name of the player). Yes, gear makes it easier – but skill will win 90% of the time.

PS. I’m not saying you guys are not skilled at gaming, I understand you don’t have the time to put into these games that other players do.

I just dont want to have to grind gear sets, its boring and takes time away from pwning newbs. If you need something more rewarding then what is currently offered in WvW that is understandable but the way the game is designed it shouldnt give you any advantage over another player, skill does that alone..and orbs.

So if I create a new character at level 1 with no gear, I should be able to beat your 80 with full exotic gear with no problem, right?

point being – there’s already enough ramp up time level 80 + exotic gears. We don’t need another RR point grid so you can roll with more or less equal footing. Its just another treadmill.

I have tons of 85s in WoW, almost every 50 in DAoC, and have leveled plenty in other MMOs. I’m tired of questing. ArenaNet claims I can jump in and compete in WvW. Are you now telling me this isn’t a good idea without first getting to 80 and getting the exotic gear? Because if not, then it’s still a grind

purplestone.8364:

Omega.8573:

purplestone.8364:

Omega.8573:

Sky.9347:

“Titles, badges, karma, money, experience=skill points at 80, server pride. How do you not earn anything in WvW?”

Because for them, it isn’t about that. It’s about being able to steamroll any newer players easily with inflated stats because they’ve been doing it longer. It’s about finding a sense of pride in creating a character persona that grows to be powerful, like a god among men.

It’s a sense of entitlement, and of retribution for the things they do not or can not have in their real life. They don’t want rewards, they want rewards that put them in a class above brand new players.

lol. Got owned a lot in other MMOs, did we? You people complain about gear in games like WoW, but it’s honestly just an excuse for playing bad. I beat better geared people ALL THE TIME. It’s not hard – you have to play smart. In DAOC, I beat incredibly high realm rank assassin’s with a lowbie RR minstrel without a pet (one of the hardest classes in the game to do this, btw). Don’t just jump to conclusions like “oh he wants gear so he can facerollwinlolgg”.

Don’t believe me? Look on youtube for a video of a WoW rogue killing plenty of people 1v1 with lvl 1 gear on at 80 v 80 (I forget the name of the player). Yes, gear makes it easier – but skill will win 90% of the time.

PS. I’m not saying you guys are not skilled at gaming, I understand you don’t have the time to put into these games that other players do.

I just dont want to have to grind gear sets, its boring and takes time away from pwning newbs. If you need something more rewarding then what is currently offered in WvW that is understandable but the way the game is designed it shouldnt give you any advantage over another player, skill does that alone..and orbs.

So if I create a new character at level 1 with no gear, I should be able to beat your 80 with full exotic gear with no problem, right?

Lol? Are you implying your a better player than me? The amount of gear in the game right now isnt a grind to get, it takes some time but its not a constant chase after gear. If your talking about skill alone well of course you need gear but im talking about two equally geared players, typically the better skilled player will win.

No, that’s not necessarily the argument. The argument is whether or not you have to grind in this game. The varying degrees of grinding gear are irrelevant, but you still have to get gear in order to compete with other people. The only difference is how easy or long it takes. You guys bash gear grinding so much, when it’s technically very much in this game…

It comes down to skill in WoW when 2 people are equally geared, as well. How is that different?

purplestone.8364:

Omega.8573:

Sky.9347:

“Titles, badges, karma, money, experience=skill points at 80, server pride. How do you not earn anything in WvW?”

Because for them, it isn’t about that. It’s about being able to steamroll any newer players easily with inflated stats because they’ve been doing it longer. It’s about finding a sense of pride in creating a character persona that grows to be powerful, like a god among men.

It’s a sense of entitlement, and of retribution for the things they do not or can not have in their real life. They don’t want rewards, they want rewards that put them in a class above brand new players.

lol. Got owned a lot in other MMOs, did we? You people complain about gear in games like WoW, but it’s honestly just an excuse for playing bad. I beat better geared people ALL THE TIME. It’s not hard – you have to play smart. In DAOC, I beat incredibly high realm rank assassin’s with a lowbie RR minstrel without a pet (one of the hardest classes in the game to do this, btw). Don’t just jump to conclusions like “oh he wants gear so he can facerollwinlolgg”.

Don’t believe me? Look on youtube for a video of a WoW rogue killing plenty of people 1v1 with lvl 1 gear on at 80 v 80 (I forget the name of the player). Yes, gear makes it easier – but skill will win 90% of the time.

PS. I’m not saying you guys are not skilled at gaming, I understand you don’t have the time to put into these games that other players do.

I just dont want to have to grind gear sets, its boring and takes time away from pwning newbs. If you need something more rewarding then what is currently offered in WvW that is understandable but the way the game is designed it shouldnt give you any advantage over another player, skill does that alone..and orbs.

So if I create a new character at level 1 with no gear, I should be able to beat your 80 with full exotic gear with no problem, right?

tarnin.1690:

Omega.8573:

Sky.9347:

“Titles, badges, karma, money, experience=skill points at 80, server pride. How do you not earn anything in WvW?”

Because for them, it isn’t about that. It’s about being able to steamroll any newer players easily with inflated stats because they’ve been doing it longer. It’s about finding a sense of pride in creating a character persona that grows to be powerful, like a god among men.

It’s a sense of entitlement, and of retribution for the things they do not or can not have in their real life. They don’t want rewards, they want rewards that put them in a class above brand new players.

lol. Got owned a lot in other MMOs, did we? You people complain about gear in games like WoW, but it’s honestly just an excuse for playing bad. I beat better geared people ALL THE TIME. It’s not hard – you have to play smart. In DAOC, I beat incredibly high realm rank assassin’s with a lowbie RR minstrel without a pet (one of the hardest classes in the game to do this, btw). Don’t just jump to conclusions like “oh he wants gear so he can facerollwinlolgg”.

Don’t believe me? Look on youtube for a video of a WoW rogue killing plenty of people 1v1 with lvl 1 gear on at 80 v 80 (I forget the name of the player). Yes, gear makes it easier – but skill will win 90% of the time.

PS. I’m not saying you guys are not skilled at gaming, I understand you don’t have the time to put into these games that other players do.

Hardest? Lol, try a melee bard, then we’ll talk. I think where was ONE game wide and he was kinda successful. At least you had stealth, insta cc and good get away tools.

the thing most people here don’t get is in this kinda game, if you have nothing to strive for, the novelty of WvW will wear off as “winning” for your server nets… well… nothing what so ever as its swapped out every two weeks. Only the top 5 or 6 servers will really matter as the rest just kinda shuffle around in middle. All these people saying “server pride is enough!” will be gone in 3-6 months or will have transferred to one of the 5 or 6 top servers.

This. And, you’re right – melee bard; WAAAAAY HARDER. But I’ve never actually even seen one! So for me it doesn’t count :P

Sky.9347:

“Titles, badges, karma, money, experience=skill points at 80, server pride. How do you not earn anything in WvW?”

Because for them, it isn’t about that. It’s about being able to steamroll any newer players easily with inflated stats because they’ve been doing it longer. It’s about finding a sense of pride in creating a character persona that grows to be powerful, like a god among men.

It’s a sense of entitlement, and of retribution for the things they do not or can not have in their real life. They don’t want rewards, they want rewards that put them in a class above brand new players.

lol. Got owned a lot in other MMOs, did we? You people complain about gear in games like WoW, but it’s honestly just an excuse for playing bad. I beat better geared people ALL THE TIME. It’s not hard – you have to play smart. In DAOC, I beat incredibly high realm rank assassin’s with a lowbie RR minstrel without a pet (one of the hardest classes in the game to do this, btw). Don’t just jump to conclusions like “oh he wants gear so he can facerollwinlolgg”.

Don’t believe me? Look on youtube for a video of a WoW rogue killing plenty of people 1v1 with lvl 1 gear on at 80 v 80 (I forget the name of the player). Yes, gear makes it easier – but skill will win 90% of the time.

PS. I’m not saying you guys are not skilled at gaming, I understand you don’t have the time to put into these games that other players do.

killbill.7910:

sorry @OP but i stopped reading there

No Real Reason to WvW
Right now, the reasons to WvW in GW2 are all focused around acquiring gear. If you’re like me, wearing all exotics, there isn’t much to gain. Karma, Tokens, Cash, none of it will really advance me in any meaningful way.

sorry but you are looking for a carrot to enjoy GW2/WvWvW or sthing….guess what there is NO carrot….if you were a trully DAoC player you should know that there was NO carrot also in RvR (and Realm Ranks i do not consider them carrot….).

sorry friend but i wont’ read the rest of the topic cause you clearly want to play other game

How in the world did you not consider Realm Ranks as “carrots”? I played because the combat was incredibly fun AND I earned stuff while doing so. The combat isn’t great in GW2, and you don’t earn anything. To people with a clue, we see a problem with this.

Please let me know how much fun you’re having in a couple of months; if you’re even playing the game anymore. We never said WvW isn’t fun, we said it’s fun doesn’t last long.

lcizzle.8219:

Stopped reading at “No Real Reason to WvW”… Some of he most popular games in the world were about having fun with no incentive in doing good or bad. I remember when people played games to have fun. Now everyone needs little star stickers and m&ms for completing every task like their mommy use to give them when they were a kid. In a few years time it will go from M&Ms and star stickers to needing the game company to pay you a salary to play.

No, but if they’re going to package up the same gameplay we’ve had throughout the MMO world and change the UI a little with some small feature additions, then YES – we need an incentive to play. Some of us like to achieve things in games.

Raffie.7865:

Every game steals from other games.

Basically all MMO’s stold from UO and EverQuest, who in turn stole from D&D.

Yes, but those games aren’t boasting that they’re re-inventing the MMO genre…

Raffie.7865:

GW2 is not DAoC
DAoC is not GW2

This. Just because this game steals almost all their ideas from other games (DAoC rvr, WoW combat system, Warhammer Online quest system) doesn’t mean it’s not it’s own game.

Von.2790:

Too Hard to Kill People
This one is the most aggravating problems I’ve encountered so far. Due to the removal of healers, classes have been given excessive survival abilities. I understand why it was done and what was trying to be accomplished, but right now fights are way too long and drawn out. Escaping with less than 5% HP happens far too often. I don’t just say that from the killing side, but from the escaping side. My warrior has escaped far too many situations where I really should have been dead. I think there needs to be some balancing work done here.

Two features DAoC had that I think would help here are 1) slowed by low health, and 2) resurrection sickness. The slow as you get lower and lower health would help the situation where people escape at low health when they really should have been dead. Resurrection sickness would help solve the problem, that as I perceive it, larger numbers will almost always win, due to more people to resurrect the dead back to full effectiveness. A superior skilled force should be able to take down a larger but less skilled force. Right now I don’t see that as really possible.

Finally, water fights are simply broken. I’m not sure what the plan was here, but there doesn’t seem to be a way to finish someone off in the water, without continuing to damage them through downed state. Trying to truly kill someone in the water results in a solid minute of chasing after a downed body that bobs to and from the surface.

Conclusion
There are other minor issues that I’ll only mention, such as there being such a thing as too much misdirection (think clones, vanishing). Keep defense being too skewed in favor of defenders. Queues (not such a minor issue, but a known quantity). Fair-weather free transfers to winning realms.

I want to make it clear that the reason I invested so much time in this analysis is not because I’m some kid with too much time on my hands. I’m an adult, I work full-time (as a senior software engineer, hire me ANet), and I’ve had many iterations of new MMO’s coming out and disappointing me to reflect on what it was about DAoC that I’m trying to find again. I think there is great potential in this game to find what I’m looking for. It’s the best attempt yet, but still not there.

Thanks for reading,

Phlow – Pellinor’s Descendants – Sanctum of Rall

[TLDR]

• Former DAoC player continually disappointed by MMO’s
• No real reason to WvW
• No Community Building
• Too hard to kill people.
• GW2 has potential

I have to agree with some of these. Mainly the lack of motivation. Yes, you should be able to PvP for fun and not for loots. I get it. But guess what, WvW isn’t fun. It’s a zergfest.

To answer your 1st question, and I know people are going to scream over this, but guess what – the combat takes almost everything from WoW in GW2 cue gasp.

Don’t believe me? Ask yourself the following questions:

1. Is there a global cooldown?
2. Are there AoE, PBAoE, and single target spells?
3. Is there a casting bar?
4. How about gound target spells?
5. Do you see numbers floating above the character you’re hitting?
6. Is there crowd control and self-buff abilities?
7. Can you switch weapons to obtain different abilities (Okay, I’ll stipulate to this only pertaining to Warriors in WoW, but it’s still not original!)

We’re all bored with this system. If you’re going to brag about being different, why not try actually being different? TERA does this well, and while it’s not a great game, the combat system was exciting and fun. DAoC’s combat was different, as well. My initial and lasting impression of this combat system is still a WoW rip-off.

Let’s move onto #2. There is no incentive in this game. Some people like that, others don’t. I think there SHOULD be incentive. I play pvp games (fighting games, mmos, shooters, etc.) because I A. enjoy them, and B. progress. Without one or sometimes BOTH of those things, the game becomes stale. For those that think I’m completely wrong, then we should all petition to take out any leveling system at all. You should not have to obtain your abilities, crafting recipes, or gear. If the whole purpose is fun, none of that should matter, and if it doesn’t, then ask yourself this: why is it in the game?

For #3, I’m not sure that’s necessarily an issue at this time, so I won’t address it.

For #4, I agree. The downed-state is unique. It’s different… Doesn’t make it good, though.

I think GW2 HAD potential. But they’re going in a direction that hardcore gamers will not like nor follow. For casuals it’s a great game – they can have fun without requiring a lot of time or skill to enjoy themselves.

Overall, I think we had our hopes too high for this game. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a brilliantly crafted game that deserves attention. But for us hardcore gamers, it isn’t enough.

eladox.3457:

RvR.
fifteenchar

It does NOT deserve to be called this imo.

Docmandu.2914:

While I prefer DAoC’s RvR system (it’s much much better than the current WvW, but it wasn’t like that from day 0 either.. so let’s give ANet some slack.. it’s a great start).. but I see one issue if they added the names in the combat log and killspam.. the issue being you can send whispers to people on other servers.. so soon enough you’ll get the usual childish trash talk and e-chat fighting.
Hence if they ever add names, they should disable whispers to other servers in the WvW zones.

Nobody seems to have mentioned this, but you could never send tells to enemies in DAOC even though you see their name.

ckooken.8190:

Omega.8573:

I completely agree. I was really hoping for another DAOC style war between 3 realms with keep and tower takes as well as small mans, soloers, duoers, etc. It was so much fun getting a group of 8 or even 2-5 people together to go defend the realm from other small groups, avoiding zergs, killing pesky stealther groups (you know who you are). WvWvW from the small amount I’ve played feels like a casual zergfest.

For game that says they loved DAoC and seemed to want to re-create some of the best parts of that game, I am supremely disappointed.

I believe you really wont see this type of RvR in DAoC ever again…unless they compeltly copied DAoC to the T. Even then, players would not like such a game because to them it would be way to hardcore.

It was an amazing game, but with how gamers are catered to in MMOs it would never work. WvW in gw2 is prolly the closest thing you are going to get to DAoC anytime soon. As for enemy names, I think it is fine the way it is. But it would be nice to see kill spam in the game. It showed who was fighting who and in what area..

As unfortunate as it is, I do agree. Casual players are ruining the hardcore gaming industry.

I love how half of your comments are “don’t play so fast!”.

Gosh guys, what are you thinking playing at your own speed?! It’s not a race!

Cimos.4923:

LeCreaux.3087:

I think it’s refreshing to be able to PvP for the fun of it on any class I feel like making with any weapon setup I feel like using regardless of the outcome. Once I realized that WvW was completely anonymous I started becoming more adventurous. I’m doing more in PvP in GW2 than I ever did in any other game.

In DAoC, WoW, and Rift I played PvP extremely competitively and would not even enter PvP until I had perfected my gear and rotations (standard PvP preparation). I admit I did enjoy having characters with good PvP reputations. However I played classes I was good at, not always classes I enjoyed or wanted to play.

I’m really really enjoying the freedom of PvP in GW2 WvW.

So you would not play the class or weapon you thought was the funnest because you were scared it would hurt your PvP reputation? Lol, this is not a problem of anonymity, it is a problem of self esteem. Sure everyone wants to win and play well, but if you cant have fun because you are scared that one guy will remember your name and say “that guy sucks”, well then that is not the games fault, it is yours. Why do you care what people think that live 3000 miles away that you will never meet?

And you just said that you are really enjoying PvP now because you can play any class you want with any weapon you want. You could do that in any game. Actually you just proved that you would have more fun when you are not worrying about reputation….so name or not, just dont worry about it.

Ask him how long he’s enjoyed competitive games compared to how long he’s enjoyed this game.

People seem to forget this game is still heavily in the honey-moon stage. I thought TERA was great when I played it at first, too

LeCreaux.3087:

I think it’s refreshing to be able to PvP for the fun of it on any class I feel like making with any weapon setup I feel like using regardless of the outcome. Once I realized that WvW was completely anonymous I started becoming more adventurous. I’m doing more in PvP in GW2 than I ever did in any other game.

In DAoC, WoW, and Rift I played PvP extremely competitively and would not even enter PvP until I had perfected my gear and rotations (standard PvP preparation). I admit I did enjoy having characters with good PvP reputations. However I played classes I was good at, not always classes I enjoyed or wanted to play.

I’m really really enjoying the freedom of PvP in GW2 WvW.

I was the same way. And it is fun to change from being competitive for a while, but I can guarantee it will get dull after a while. Competitiveness is why those games (aside from Rift :P) were so successful long term. However, ArenaNet already has our money, so they have no reason to keep us entertained in the long run.

I completely agree. I was really hoping for another DAOC style war between 3 realms with keep and tower takes as well as small mans, soloers, duoers, etc. It was so much fun getting a group of 8 or even 2-5 people together to go defend the realm from other small groups, avoiding zergs, killing pesky stealther groups (you know who you are). WvWvW from the small amount I’ve played feels like a casual zergfest.

For game that says they loved DAoC and seemed to want to re-create some of the best parts of that game, I am supremely disappointed.

I’m completely astonished so few people saw this coming…this is what happens when you take out crowd control in a game.

In a game that the developers boast that it is “skill” based, numbers should have nothing to do with it. In dark age of camelot, groups of 8 killed entire zergs if they were smart enough.