Showing Posts For PhilKingz.4809:
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My little Bro needs too long. We actually discussed my testing methods. If we find an error after he did his testings I will change my results, but i could repeat them with 3 frame-analysis and confirm my results. I list them up as single statements, so you can derive further conclusions by yourself.
Results:
- The casttime of HB is about 3,6s-3,7s! This results from animationparts after and before the castingbar.
- The casttime of AA is NOT 0,5s! It’s clearly more. The third attack in AA-sequence
has a different cast-animationlenght than the other two!
- You get out 5 AA, starting from a new sequence, in the same time as casting HB.
Synchronized by my framerate it was only 4 AAs, but I added some milliseconds
in order to check if the next hit of AA-sequence (5th hit) falls into a reasonable
space of time that converged to the casting time of HB. It did.
- To compare the dps or burst potential of HB with simply AA, you have to take the
damage of (2 Greatsword Swings, 2 Greatsword slices and one Brutal Strike) into
account.
- Assuming no criticalhits and steady damage HB does about 40% more damage
than straight AA in the time normalized on HB-Casting Animation. I dont know
why, but the damage can differ some percentages like 43% or even 45% or 38%
even with steady weapons.
Examples: AA ~ 364 dam, HB ~ 510 dam or AA~ 4055 dam, HB~5820 dam
- Since the “40% more damage” is based on the AA-“base value”, nerfing HB would
be stupid. The burstdamage everybody is arguing about is mainly the result of
quickness. Btw. h1- Axe AAs do about 20% less dps than HB, but is not restricted to
only 3,7s. So Using 1h Axe-AAs with Quickness is not a bad idea. Especially since
you can finish the “AA-Burst” with an Eviscerate.
This, my friends, refers to me pounding my forehead hard on the table in rapid succession for revealing something everybody has known intuitively before!
The curtain drops and the audience is barely impressed, but it is a typical trait of mathematicians.
(edited by PhilKingz.4809)
Good point Raudence.
Does anyone know how to insert gifs inhere? Even [img][/img] doenst work for me with normal picture.
WTF, man. I still cant follow you and your attitude is quite unfriendly for someone not leaving his own comfortzone.
- I also have empirical data about HB. Does that make them valid? The most obvious Indicator that empirical data is never correct is your swingtime of HB which varies although the game does not.
- If i understand you right, you compared the weapondps of HB with one single
AA-Sequence. (Btw. AA is not just AA, it’s a sequence with three different attacks.
So AA-DPS varies if you cut in different swings.) See below:
- I repeat:
Attacks———-damage—/—dps—/
only basic————851—/—389—/
hundred blades—2030—/—615—/
There, you not just tested the swing time, but the damage. So you need steady weapons. In addition the quotient of dps and the damage (measured in what? Swings? time? Cars?) is not the same. Means for example those 851 cannot induce 389 dps over the time of HB when 2030 induces 615 dps.
Maybe this was just a hypothecial example from you and i didnt get it. Another hint why HB cannot have a casttime of 3,5s is simply that the castbar has exactly 3,5s in programcode, but there are still starting animations, also endanimations which are performed independent.
So i just wanted to understand what you’re talking about, nothing else. Ignore this post if you like.
Sounds strange, but im strictly against those cosmetic-changes. Dont get me wrong. I just observed what happened in other mmo’s. The result was that often some styles became a trend and a lot of people looked quite the same like Son-Goku-Superstar. Imagine you’ve put a lot of work in your character to create a unique and suiting look for you and everybody just mimics it. It steals atmosphere from the game.
But on the other Hand: “Changing Names” would be a nice feature, indeed. Why im against changes in appearance but for changing names? Names are unique and you cannot use the same name twice to steal the unique features of a player. In addition gw2 names are global. Means there is not much room for you name. Nearly every one-word-name is already choosen. Often occupied by inactive Players. As a result a lot of people chose stupid names to avoid the name-war. This also destroys the atmosphere, since people cannot change their stupid names, even if other players draw attention to that and the approached player, named cheesecake for example, is willing to take another name. I dont get why Gw2 allowed one-word-names, but with global server enviroment either. It’s simply clumsy. Force everyone to choose a second name, or better, give legacy names that can be hided. I dont know one mate that really got his name and everyone is adding stupid pre- or suffixes because of that.
So people, please take a stand. Do you think similar? What should Arenanet do? A lot of Players are leaving this great game, because they are so many minor flaws.
One last note I would like to toss in there. This is all just math using just the listed numbers. There are some small pauses in auto attack and such that might be beneficial to weed out just what is going on time wise. Maybe I’ll fraps it and look at it closely. :P
I got bored this afternoon and did just that. Here is the data result.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkOEvvx5XxHTdHBCYnNxTVFidndfdVhRWUR3UmpOc2c#gid=0
I should have done the last 2 basic rotations, but I was looking at HB not so much basic attack. The basic attack result though is more relevant to proving the OP wrong, and has more overall data to support it anyway.Going back to the OP’s chart it should look more like this (which is more like what I think people would have expected):
Attacks———-damage—/—dps—/
only basic————851—/—389—/
hundred blades—2030—/—615—/TLDR:
3 basic attack takes about 2.36 seconds not 1.5 like it states it should and does less dps than HB.
HB takes about the 3.5 seconds as would be expected from the ability description.
I dont know how you’ve tested, but it seems you didnt use steady weapons.
What is this?
Attacks———-damage—/—dps—/
only basic————851—/—389—/
hundred blades—2030—/—615—/
How many basic attacks is this? And Which one’s? Slices, Swings, Brutal Strikes?
I guess this is one sequence of basic attacks against one cast of hundred blades, since the quotient of damage and dps is not the same. But if it’s like i said, what do you want to prove? You said “it should be more like this!” But actually not, ‘cause you wanna compare the damage of one HB with the Damage of AA’s you can perform while casting HB.
I also disagree that HB has the animationlength that’s described in the tooltip, although i can assure you that the deviation from tooltip description and realcasting time is much bigger in case of AA than HB. Therefore you’re right with you approximations.
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This is no Im-the-teacher-and-you-are-the-pupil-respond. I just want to help out and protect structured pvp in gw2. I have rarely seen another mmo-rpg, even just an mmo, which has such a good approach to balance. Gw2 is really good, and the more you cry the bigger the chance this game will become a wow-clone.
GW2 is far away from being eSport worthy at the moment. We’re going to need several patches before we can even think about it.
SWTOR (a great PvP game) had a lot of burst issues early like this game, but after several patches they really ironed out the gameplay. Battles were always consistent length without excessive burst and you needed perfect synergy in your group composition to win. Getting a proper build that had balance between damage and survivability was a constant struggle.
I cant really disagree, since i didnt play swtor, just my Bro did. But the argument “Battles were always consistent length without excessive burst and you needed perfect synergy in your group composition to win.” makes me suspicious. How many groups with perfect-synergy and compostion are out there? Maybe you meant it differently, but the premise of having a good composition and a good teamplay to win can also relate to a very unbalanced game. You have this exactly in wow, which a lot of “not-so-intelligent” people call an E-sport. If you consider WoW an Esport, then Gw2 is a lot more than that. Having a high burst-capability says actually nothing about balance as long you can counter it 1 to 1. The inverted problem is that you cannot kill someone in 1vs1 with “normal DPS”. Then people trade cd’s. “Actuall-Killing” just occures when two man stay on one person which also leads to unbalance, since cc and faster classes always outplay tanks. In addition, only a game with normalized stats can be balanced.
But we deviate alot from our the thread’s topic, sorry.
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1.) Concentrate on “Damage to Kill” not toughness, what only contributes to DTK. Means getting a bigger HP pool or regeneration is mandatory when stacking toughness, since it’s senseles otherwise.
2.) Use defensive CDs when your Opponent uses Burst CDs. Damage Mitigation alone
is not sufficient and this is good.
Example: Greatsword-Warrior uses 100b, you dodge. He uses Bola, You remove
conditions. He uses Knockdown, you use a “shield wall”
3.) With your low HP, your thieve opponent gets a big damagebonus to you, since
you are fast under 50% life.
4.) At ComeAndSee. I can only disagree. My Bro is playing Guardian and i dont even
kill him nearly as you described. I dont kill him at all in 1vs1, although i oneshot a
lot noobs in sPvP. Anything with your skills or playstyle is flawed.
Having 3,3k Armor and Protection with a huge amount of reg is in one-one nearly.
5.) “Toughness right now isn’t scaling properly” In spvp the terminal value of stats is
predetermined. I cant see any unbalanced scaling of stats with those scopes.
6.) This is no kittening WoW. If two people are on you, you’re passive abilities wont
help. Movement, Positioning., Help from your mates, and preventive measures
do. As a result a lot of people have problems with mesmers, cause they are really
strong in “evading attacks” instead of mitigate them.
7.) Thiefs are simply not good in getting a high DTK, since their lack in regeneration
and damagemitigation is counterbalanced by cc.
8.) If you really want to play a tanks-thief though, get 16k HP and play it with dagger /pistol, not pistol / dagger. YOU CANT SIMPLY MITIGATE THE DAMAGE, You have no reg and no protection.
9.) Imagine Symbol-Guadians, Earth-Water-Elementals, S-Elixier-Engineers or Mesmers with even stronger damage mitigation through toughness. Some kinda stupid. Your plan of playing a tanky thief is not dumb, though, you’re just using a wrong approach.
This is no Im-the-teacher-and-you-are-the-pupil-response. I just want to help out and protect structured pvp in gw2. I have rarely seen another mmo-rpg, even just an mmo, which has such a good approach to balance. Gw2 is really good, and the more you cry the bigger the chance this game will become a wow-clone.
(edited by PhilKingz.4809)
I have my new results and i verified them 3 times, but im still a little unsure. MY brother will do similar tests but independently from me, so we can confirm our results. He has not much time, so I will have to wait a for it. Nevertheless I saved this thread in my browserhistory and I will post the stuff as soon as i know that my findings are correct.
There is something terribly wrong. I dont know. The frames seem to make “jumps”.
My little Bro has better hardware, i will test it tomorrow with him again, so you will have a physician and a mathematician on the job, lol.
This is not true, Dave, and I think you didnt read the previous post.
The last Hit of Hundred Blades does roughly 2times the damage a regular small hit of HB does. So even if it crits the damage to a HB without crits would be ((8+2*1,5)/10) 110%. Means the total amount of a noncrit HB-sequence is buffed by 10%. So the last hit does not bring up a significantly amount of damage to HB, since the last hit covers only 1/5, 20% of the damage-potential of HB.
For anything else i refer to my last post.
Btw. 1 to everyone who argues that dps is no burstdamage. Burstdamage is actually not even defined. All you need is a timeline and an amount of damage you inflicting during that time. If you consider HB as bursty, then 6 AAs are also bursty. If you just consider the damage of ONE skill as burstdamage, then you have to remind the castingtime of this skill to inflict this damage. And it’s quite easy in gw2. Compare it to wow, when a vanilla firemage casts a pyroblast. It took him 6 kittening seconds. This can be considered as burstdamage, since all the damage is inflicted at one single moment though. This is not the case in HB.
Btw 2. “oneshotting” or nineshotting people with HB is the result of people who play gw2 like wow. NOway you can even kill a good spvp-player with one hundredblades and quickness. Even if he goes afk. The point is toughness. I inflict about 14k damage to some randomnoobs in spvp, while i do not more than 7,5k on my brother who also uses defensive stats. That’s always the kittening problem. Kidz focus on damage, Kidz getting oneshot and cry for nerfs. People with brains focus on balancing their stats according to the role they play. Since there are no real healer in gw2 you have to focus on def-stats. And i would punch every HB-Warrior to dust with 1h mace and shield.
So, im done. Sami managed to get me a good idea of how testing the damage potential of those skills.
I just tested it with fraps, reducing the fps to 10 to ensure no instability between those frames. I cutted th lenght of HB out and measured the following AA at the same time. I ensured no crits happend.
Results:
HB : 778 Damage AA: 621 Damage.
So yes, HB does more damage than siimply autoattacking, about 25%.
The huge ratio of errors in theorycrafting the difference is derived from the tooltip inaccuracy with respect to the AA-Castime. It’s not 0,5 Seconds. Its about 0,65-0,7 seconds.
What are my conclusions?
The Nerfcries are as ridiculous as the thought that HB would be a lot more bursty. In situations where youre opponent is not rooted or you’re in low HP, i would not USE HB. Circling around a rooted opponent ensures to get off better in terms of trading damage, since a lot of people dont turn enough. Nevertheless. the real worth of HB lies in building up adrenaline, cause there is a really huge difference.
So. actually nothing really new, although the lack of accuracy in AA-tootips reveals a newproblem. Has 1haxe a better dps than 1h sword? How much is the real differend between mace (cc-weapons) and damage weapons?
*Edit: There are errors in the data i collected. I fear that i did a stupid kittening mistake, concerning the framerate. This post is not reliable anymore. All i can say is that it is really true: HB does more damage than AA (how hilarious oO). But since i put so much time in this stuff i want to know it exactly how much damage it does. *
(edited by Moderator)
Frame by frame analysis was one AA chain in 2.3 seconds (or as close as), with Hundred Blades at 4s (tooltips are a lie!). Grabbing numbers from your SS:
AA chain: 109 + 110 + 141 = 3kittenage over 2.3 seconds, or 156.52 dps
Can’t see your hundred blades damage numbers, but using the low end of of the range you posted:
100 blades: 822 damage over 4 seconds = 205.5 dps
50 dps doesn’t sound like much, but this is obviously with low damage steady weapons. With your figures, Hundred Blades does ~30% more dps than the AA swing, which is a very important increase. Combined with quickness and depending on gear you’re approaching (or exceeding) damage numbers that can kill somebody before they can stun break or heal.
edit: also, unless it was changed recently Axe #1 chain kicks out about as much damage as 100 blades. Just has a much shorter range and narrower attack angle. And critically, you give up all the other benefits of the Greatsword (mobility, dodge, fantastic boomerang snare, might on crit tactic).
Nono, i agree with you and im familiar with numbers. 30% more dps would be okay. The only thing i dont understand. The tooltip says 3,5 seconds, and i tested it out with a stopwatch. I know it’s not very accurate, but if im honest, The lenght of the castingbar is exactly 3,5 seconds. Maybe there are some animations in addition to that, so that it’s more than 3,5 seconds. The AA-dps i just tested by letting my char swing and stopped him exactly when i hit 3,5secs on my clock without locking at the screen. After figuring oiut that i always just get 6 attacks, i started to measure how long i got for 7 attacks. It was abourt 3,7-3,9 secs.
I have to admit: Testing the dps by analysing the framerate is much more accurate, but im sure the castingbars are shown correctly in the tooltips. So maybe the animationlenght is some kind of different. I will investigate further and record with fraps myself to testify what you said.
Thanks for your constructive post!
It does noticeably more than your auto attack……
Instead of math-crafting some garbage, actually go play some pvp and try killing stuff without using it, then try killing stuff while using it, and then you will see.
Playing warrior is all about baiting out the enemy’s rolls and stunbreaks before setting up a cc > frezny > 100b.
Thank you for responding, I feel you were the only one reading my text.
Since you’re a little afraid of theorycrafting and math, i made some real Tests to confirm what i realized while im playing.
I cant help but question what i saw and thought like everyone does. I cannot confirm that HB makes significantly more burstdamage than autoattacks. I actually realized this when i could use HB on a Player, but just used Quickness. He was dead as fast as with HB.
So why do people think that HB does so much damage? Rapid addition to a bug Number? Lack of gamefeeling? Maybe Cycloney is right, and it’s just a dance.
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So i’ve read a lot of topics about people arguing that this skill is overpowered in pvp. I dont want to trashtalk any further about that, since those people are mostly very young and one-dimensional in their point of view.
So my question is:
What is the point of HB, if not for dps’s?
Calculating the dps of HB will show you that it does not a lot more than your Q. It also hasnt a bigger aoe radius. You actually lose dps in aoe, since you cannot position yourself while casting it.
I know, everybody uses it, but more than a lot people do not check what they’are actually doing. The only point of HB i can imagine is building up faster adrenalin, since you get it with every hit.
Anyone else recognized that HB does actually just a tiny bit more damage than your q?
(edited by PhilKingz.4809)