Showing Posts For Rane.4079:
My build is in my signature and no it is not tailored to be anti d/p thief.
Don’t know how I missed that, cheers. Very interesting to see that you run Chaotic Interruption over PU. Again I’m not a mesmer main so maybe this isn’t that odd, but I’ve only seen people playing PU condi or hybrid, or shatter in WvW. Gonna check out your youtube vids also to see this in action.
Pretty much any kit/nade engineer build has complete condition coverage besides torment with good uptime. There are several “popular” condition engi builds:
Perplex (This is really just 3kit condi with perplexity runes, use a regular rune instead): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQd53qlCvo8
HGH (Little outdated, still strong): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyQivtpg8jA
You should not have any problem with D/P thieves, you’re a hard counter, even if they stealth just keep tossing nades and they can’t come close. I’ve only ever died 1v1 with a HGH build to S/D because I give him 25 might and can’t keep up boon coverage.
Thanks heaps for the Engi info. I am absolutely terrible at Engi (it’s the only class I have less than 200 sPvP games on, I hate playing it lol). I assume after the perplexity nerf (which we don’t know how strong/weak of a nerf it will be) that at the very least the HGH build should still hard counter D/P?
Why does it take 70+ posts to say ‘no’?
Because as this thread demonstrates 95% of people have no idea what a good D/P thief is, let alone what beats it. They have magical beliefs that all classes can do everything and don’t understand the limitations of their own classes. They also invent their own ideas about what their opponents are/are not allowed to do and in place of logic just yell scrub/coward/l2play. Just not gonna bother replying to that 95% as they’re clearly beyond help.
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I just explained very clearly what is desireable rationale that helps people with questions, and what is unconstructive closemindeness that ignores all logic. Your post clearly falls into the later catagory. Somehow that makes me have an attitude? Lol.
Thanks for being mature and respectful to people trying to help.
Why do you insinuate that I’m not being respectful or mature? You didn’t read the thread, or you ignored it. That’s pretty disrespectful of those posting in it. You then posted nonsense that this thread has already discussed in detail. You believe that learning to play D/P grants your ranger magical abilities to overcome them. It doesn’t.
There are a handful of people in this thread so far that have been very informative to me and I thank them for their rationale, sound advice. Meanwhile many others have not only polluted the thread false information but have the audacity to argue about topics they clearly know nothing about. It what universe do you think any game is so perfectly balanced that every class can beat another if players are both equally skilled?(which is exactly what you’re saying if you believe you can just learn D/P then somehow beat them on your main regardless of their class.)
What’s actually constructive is explaining how to use certain weapons, traits, etc to fight back, videos demonstrating this are even better. Trying to yell very loudly that “I HAVE KILLED THIEVES ON ALL MY CHARACTERS AND I COULD TELL THEY WERE REALLY GOOD IM JUST BETTER” is not in the slightest way helpful (and also pretty deluded).
Thus why we have build desolation within the ele and ranger classes, for example. Nobody’s exploring possibilities right now.
I don’t think this has anything to do with it, people just work things out in games faster when there’s this many people that can chat to this many others. People have tested all the builds and found what works what doesn’t and everything in between. I agree that “the Blackwater build” is mehhhh imo, I prefer the ones like Doiids (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Maximised-Hybrid-Phantasm-Build-Roaming/first#post3007845). At the core of it though anything with Prismatic, triple or quadruple stealth, and Traveller runes seems like a very strong 1vX spec.
Rangers don’t have some undiscovered secret spec that let’s them do something we currently don’t know about, they just need some buffs to make them more useful in WvW scenarios (which are a long way off because spirit ranger is still so strong in sPvP and they do top-tier dps in PvE). Ele’s are honestly in an amazing place in WvW, the ones who complain are those who think the grass is always greener on the other side. Are they god-mode? No. But they’re a great class to roam solo, roam in a small group, or bring to the zerg.
In the old days (when I was like 7) if you found some combo in Streetfighter it’s entirely possible noone you meet in the next 5 years would know about it. You could tell your best friend if you wanted and then the two of you would be able to use a tactic on everyone you meet that they’ve never seen before. The internet just increased the ‘best friend’ radius (and many people like to mistake this as ‘not being innovative/creative’). It’s the exact same as it always was, it’s just that now you have 6 billion best friends who can tell you if they find something out.
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Thanks Ross, my friend will certainly appreciate this as he’s already keen on Mesmer. I can figure out most of the build from the vid, everything except your armor type >.< (it clearly doesn’t have vit so I assume Rabid of Knights maybe mixed with serkers). Interesting that you use Arcane Thievery over Veil (I like Thievery better I don’t mesmer and the ones I’ve seen prefer Veil).
As an aside I find it mind boggling that anyone does this ‘secret build’ nonsense in 2013 (in the old days it made far more sense because in the internets youth people didn’t figure out builds/strategies in games for yearsssssss, so you truly had a leg up if you knew a secret noone else did). But with the internet/forums/youtube thesedays there are undoubtedly already plenty of people already playing the identical prismatic triple stealth spec to you, so why not help the stragglers learn :\. Totally your prerogative though. Thanks for all the help.
Lastly I am curious if you think anything ‘beats’ the prismatic mesmer build, or is it in your opinion the best 1vX build for WvW?
The best way to beat a skilled d/p thief is to make your own, learn the tricks and timing involved, then you can reasonably predict and counter on your main class.
Congratulations on missing everything in this thread. Playing as a D/P thief does not magically grant your ranger the tools to kill them, etc, already covered in this thread.
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I’m running guardian with several builds, one of them is staple x/x/30/30/x build with power stat-build, boon duration or condi resuction. Weapon set is a combination of GS/Hammer/Staff/Mace/Focus. Guard leech, applied fortitude and sigil stacks are a must since they are game changers.
This is a pretty good example of what I don’t consider beating a thief. Firstly if they catch you with the wrong weapon equipped you’re the creek. More importantly is that even if you make them flee, I highly doubt you can capture a camp and not die when they gank you. If I’m incorrect on this point then by all means correct me as I honestly don’t have a lot of experience solo capping with either the AH or the Triple Med Guardian builds, but I really don’t see you taking an objective if the thief decides he doesn’t want to let you.
The problem with that level of play is that we’re talking about equal players, so if you’re good enough to be baiting someone, they’re good enough to know they’re being baited and should flee. In reality you never get people this equally skilled which is why it works, you’re most often either the baiter or the baitee. But that doesn’t mean that the class mechanics aren’t giving someone the edge in the fight though. Ultimately though I think you have answered my question, it’s possible for either the D/P or the Mesmer to get baited, but ultimately you cannot stop the other player fleeing if they understand what going on.
Could you elaborate on your build? I find it interesting that you don’t use GS to knock them out of refuge relying solely on focus pull, and you say to build tanky but if you wear Knights or Rabid or PTV then how on earth do you do enough damage to even scratch anything? Or do you just mean you wear full serker with the ‘tanky’ prismatic spec?
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I’m running a build that can often kill other players/take objectives and not care about your evasive thief character because you can’t stop me.
Still don’t see a point.
That’s exactly what I’m asking for in this thread, so would you care to elaborate?
It’s not about mistakes, it’s about options. The D/P thief played well can get out of almost any fight (perhaps any fight, not sure on mesmers) and to actually force them to run other classes have to run some sort of kittenised tank spec that can’t possibly solo a camp because the thief will gank them. The key distinction being that the thief is running a build that can often kill other players/take objectives and not care about your tanky character because you can’t stop them.
Which is why I was interested by both Ross and Lahel’s builds because they’re both Mesmers who claim to be able to force thieves to run at least 51% of the time and (I assume) are still perfectly good builds for killing other players/taking objectives etc.
… and no I didn’t read the thread after I found his first statement, which is spot on.
It’s clear you didn’t read because he didn’t even say that. Unless you’re a mesmer (or maybe an engi) you cannot force a Thief to run and then cap a camp. If you have a build that suppossedly forces good D/P Thieves to run and then you can cap the camp even if they reengage on you then please enlighten me as that is what this thread is about. Saying all classes can do that against good D/P’s is completely false.
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Lahel.6381 got it right. Every class can win a good d/p thief if he/she stays for the fight. Most thieves will just retreat and come back another day in wvw when they get too low/run out of cds. I’d consider this a win, since it’s the only class that can reset the fight at any point (if specced for it). That’s like moving away from a point in current spvp, mission failed.
Did you actually read any of the thread, because he didn’t say anything like that, and we just discussed how this is totally not beating a Thief because they’re stopping you capturing camps, but you aren’t stopping them from doing it. This is WvW, not DuelWars.
I really think it’s the same question, as in the grand scheme of things WvW isn’t about ‘dueling in a box pride’. It’s a game mode where you try and roam the land and capture objectives, while your enemies try to stop you. Hence if a Thief can stop you capturing something, but you can’t stop him capturing something, then the thief is winning.
Again though I apoligise and should have clarified that I’m not talking about dueling in a box with made up rules, as I understand some people really do like that.
I play a Mesmer, and I can beat a good d/p thief 50-60% of the time, IF he stays to fight. Now if he runs away, I will take that as a win because I will interpret that as the thief thinking to himself he can’t win the fight if he stays.
Generally I don’t consider making the thief run away a win because he can come back and gank you while you try and take an objective. However I would classify this as a win assuming you are running a ‘good build’ meaning one that can generally roam fine and you haven’t completely kitten it just to beat a D/P thief. Making a thief run away so that you can capture a camp or something is a win in my opinion (which is why I don’t consider just running something tanky a win, the thief is going to just gank you again while you’re capping and you’ll die.)
Mind elaborating on what you run? If you aren’t running traveler runes then I assume it’s some version of the triple stealth perplexity mesmer?
Engineers with condi pressure destroy them with ease. King thief himself Yishis said on his youtube that engineers just bring too much conditions for a thief to cope with.
This sounds believable but I am suspect because then you say that other condi classes can do it to (which is so wrong, ranger warriors necros etc don’t have anywhere near enough condis to kill the standard D/P thief build because it has really good condi removal. However I know the least about Engis (by far) so I could totally believe that they might beat them. Could you link a build?
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I refuse to play D/P because heartseeking 4x times through smoke field with your camera down and your field of view totally screwed up is too awkward and doesnt seem fun a all. Why anet dont give as normal stealth that wouldnt require such awkward mechanics to keep it up. 10s stealth with 10s cooldown that drains all your initiative on use as for example. I would seriously prefer that over seeing thieves hoping through smoke fields like rabbits.
Totally valid reason, if the playstyle doesn’t appeal to you then that’s perfectly fine. There are many reasons not to play this build such as it not being the greatest teamfight build if you’re roaming with friends and fairly horrible as far as zerg fighting goes. I just thought it was childish for some people (like that guy up there) to act like they’re better thieves because they don’t play the spec.
@OP: What do you mean by “beating”? I’ll bring a boxing analogy here: If you are talking about scorecard – sure can do. If you are talking about victory via knockout – probably not.
Sorry, I should have clarified. I mean beating as in: “a typical WvW scenario where you are roaming solo, you encounter a solo D/P thief, neither of you are near any camps/npcs/teammates, and they try to fight you (meaning you both probably have food/bloodlust stacks if your build runs it)”. Is there any class that can actually kill them? There are several specs that are too tanky for them to kill, but those specs ‘lose’ in my opinion because the best they can do is walk away and try to capture a camp and risk dying to a thief gank, while the thief is still playing a build that can roam around effectively and kill people/take stuff.
The main reason for this thread is that I have a bunch of friends getting into WvW for the new season/league/stuff and they want advice on what classes are best at what. One of the frequently asked questions is what can they play that is still fun but doesn’t die to good D/P thieves solo. (And my thief play is fairly mediocre and sPvP only, so I’m not good enough to understand what classes actually can kill them 1v1 in WvW)
You haven’t tried the warrior ‘solution’ you suggested because it doesn’t work. As for your suppossed ranger build you still don’t seem to understand that you cannot kill a good thief because a good one will just disengage any time you might be able to kill him. Your tanky ranger build can’t do anything to stop that (as oppossed to say a Mesmer with focus pull, which is why it is some people say Mesmers can beat them).
If you are killing D/P thieves with your tanky ranger build then that’s all well and good, I’m happy for you – but they aren’t good. Saying it’s a 50/50 matchup if both players are good is just nonsense, the thief will never die, you sometimes will. That’s a 0-100 matchup.
@ Amurond
I totally believe that you can kill a good D/P thief is he doesn’t run from you, but really how can you stop him running as a guardian? As a guardian sure you might be able to make him flee, but you can’t kill him. Then if you try to take a camp or something he can ambush you in the middle of it (or you can both /dance, neither of these are really ‘beating’ the thief imo)
As for the ‘good’ connotation I only bother typing it to stop the 100 morons saying ‘THIS BEATS THIEF’ when it doesn’t against any thief with half a brain. Sadly as you can see there are still many people who think ‘THIS BEATS THIEF I KIL THEM ALLL THE TIME’.
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Have you ever actually tried this? Between server desynch/lag/dodges/blinding powder/stealth it’s absurd. It’s not so much thieves as it is anyone trying to melee you from the sides/back in WvW, good luck landing bolas on anything but a ranged class. Without a doubt I think the only warrior that might beat a good D/P is Hammer+Longbow or Hammer+Something/Shield and from what I’ve seen they really don’t. Hammer is pretty overpowered for group play at the moment, but for 1v1 is extremely telegraphed and can easily be avoided by dodge/blind/shadowstep/steal. I’m just going off the streams I watch but the thieves I’m talking about laugh at warriors 1v1.
My experience is more sPvP but I don’t see how any good D/P thief loses to a guardian. First and foremost, there’s no way you can catch them. Even if you’re running GS and 1hSword and judges intervention, there’s no way you are catching a good thief. Again I’m positive you have caught thieves as I have also, but those players are idiots. If they’re hitting you while not in blackpowder or backstabbing you out of stealth then yeah you can actually trade in your advantage, but again they were probably dumb to do that or at the very least can reset the fight and reengage on their terms.
In sPvP I really don’t have a problem with them because it’s an entirely different game mode. The fact that the thief has to somehow get you off your node to decap it changes the way people build/fight and even if the thief would kill you 1v1 you can often easily stall long enough until your roamer arrives to help you out. If you’re roaming by yourself in WvW however and a good D/P jumps you, you better hope you aren’t playing guardian.
No ranger in Dire/Apoth is every killing a good D/P thief. As I said in the opening post, the only thing they can’t kill is really tanky stuff that can’t kill them – which means they can just ignore you entirely. As you said yourself in reality you aren’t even that tanky and if you mess up they can kill you, meanwhile if you ever somehow get them low they can run and you can’t do anything about it.
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I’m trying to find good information and you’re just posting ignorant drivel. The most you’ll do is post a video of someone beating a bad D/P thief and then be all “see it’s totally doable”. Almost every spec in the game simply cannot kill a good D/P thief in a fair 1v1. I’m trying to find out which ones can.
I don’t think thieves are gods, I think it’s pretty obvious to anyone half decent that D/P thief is one of if not the best roamer/duelist in the game. I want to learn and improve so I’m asking people with far more WvW experience than I what they find difficult to beat as a D/P thief.
Meanwhile you see some bad D/P thief go ham on some guy and die in a 1v1 and think that proves all classes can beat good D/P thieves. Watch any stream with a good D/P thief and the only classes they have ‘trouble’ against are the super tanky ones that can’t kill the thief either, so the thief can ignore them and move on.
You cannot find a video of every class/spec beating a good D/P thief, if you think you can then that just means you don’t know what a good D/P thief is.
Yes, every class can beat bad/average D/P thieves. This thread is to discuss beating a good D/P thief, a scenario where both players are equally skilled.
Please stop posting nonsense in this thread. By all means please show me these magical videos of Rangers beating good D/P thieves.
Both Ele and Mesmer are fantastic in WvW, especially if you want a ranged class (which you said you did).
The only thing about Ele is that their best damage is actually melee/midrange. Their long range set is best for group play, as it is too weak damage wise to play solo.
And ignore the morons saying “Warrior” in this thread, as they clearly have no idea how to play. If you want a ranged damage class and level a warrior to 80 for that purpose then you’re going to get pretty frustrated trying to beat Mesmers with your “Longbow Ranged Damage Warrior”.
Here is a video of a very popular and effective Mesmer spec (has both a ranged weapon and a melee weapon) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO-4WfMBMPU
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So much nonsensical replies already, sigh.
Yes, playing well is going to beat a bad thief, I already stated that’s stupid to discuss. We are talking about good players of equal skill. Saying that “any class can beat a good D/P” is just complete nonsense, they can’t. I’m wondering if there is a single spec that can because I assure you most cannot.
“Perma stealth” is not an exploit and they aren’t any lesser of a person than you are for using it. You speak as if leap finisher in a smoke feild is a glitch that ANet didn’t program in intentionally. If anything the D/P theives are just smarter than you because they realise it’s the best roaming spec for Thief. If you want to play D/D or something because you enjoy it, that’s totally fine. But if you refuse to play D/P because you think those players are ‘lesser people’ than you – then you’re just bad (and childish).
Thanks Ross for the Mesmer perspective. I can see how a good condi or hybrid Mesmer would be a pain for them because both classes use very similar mechanics to outmuscle everyone else. I assume neither spec can prevent the other one from fleeing the fight if they want to though?
I am sincerely asking if there is any spec in the game that can actually beat them in a 1v1?
Everyone has encountered the roaming D/P Thief that can smoke field -> leap finisher, refuge, etc. They do enough damage over the fight to kill almost anything that isn’t a pure tank, can shadowstep out of stuns and stealth to reset the fight at any point, drop conditions while in stealth and regen health.
So does any good D/P thief think there’s a class/spec that straight up beats them 1v1? The only class I’ve heard say they beat them is certain Mesmer builds (I have heard both the perplexity rune and phantasm mesmers beat them), but I’ve also heard some D/P thieves claim to beat these classes too. Obviously one of them is mistaken.
Obligatory Disclaimer: Please do not post if you have no idea what you’re talking about. Yes, I too have killed hundreds of Thieves, but it’s because they don’t know what they’re doing.