Guild Wars 2

In my opinion, it’s actually kind of good on paper, especially if you’re using a dagger MH. When your opponent hits 50% and doesn’t cleanse the immobilize you can easily BS and then HS them to death. The issue, however, I see with deadly arts in general is that critical strikes is simply better when it comes to dealing damage, mostly because of hidden killer/executioner, two of our best offensive steroids. They (and the stat combination of precision and critical damage) are so good that in fact, if you want to deal direct damage as thief, 30 CS is almost mandatory.

Very few builds will, however, actually invest 30 in two offensive trees. Considering how squishy thiefs are by nature, only burst builds (or godlike dodgers) would consider going 30/30/x/x/x. It’s good for burst builds though, right? Well, not really, since burst builds are generally not going to attack a target if they’re going to be below 50% for long enough for the immobilze to matter – they’ll only jump a target if they know it will be downed by their BS combo (and/or a few HS). This can generally be secured by basilisk venom just as well, so the immobilize would be kind of wasted.

I’ve tinkered with a condition build using this trait a while ago, to force an enemy to stand in my caltrops for 8 seconds (100% condi duration is perfectly fair and balanced) once they get low. I don’t really enjoy condi thief though and didn’t have the patience to keep experimenting.

TL;DR: 30 CS is pretty much mandatory for direct damage; 30/30 isn’t really feasible for anything but burst builds, and those down the enemy too quickly for the immobilize to matter anyway most of the time.
=> Balanced builds, that would use the lockdown because their damage is lower and they’d need the additional time for a kill use CS instead of DA because it offers more damage and they can’t afford to put 60 points into offensive traits.

Stardrift.7360:

Necro standing still like a baus with wells in front of him.
Me: haha ima steal get close to u and use ur fear against you. Proceed to steal, steal failed.
Necro: huehuehue->death shroud-> ? (at this point i gave up and picked up some light reading) -> downs me
Don`t presume to be such an expert, even though “you play a thief”. There may be bugs you haven`t encountered. As for dodging a steal (you`re just making my point concerning the stupidity of our F1 skill), i`m aware of that and the majority of times a steal failed on me was on targets facerolling their keyboard and keeping the “s” key firmly pressed.

I never said that there can’t possibly be any bugs, I just said I personally haven’t encountered them.

Dodging F-abilities is not unique to ther thief. You can dodge shatters, burst skills, offensive toolbelts, pet’s special abilities. Any other offensive mechanic can be dodged, so I don’t think steal should be different from the others in that regard.

ANet is actually at least competent enough not to listen to pretty much any “feedback” regarding class balance in a forum. MMORPG (and pretty much any online game, for that matter) forums are always full of stupid ideas that are thought through halfway and would do more damage to balance than anything else.

Imo, thieves are in a decent spot right now. D/D needs some QoL changes (so it can somehow compete with D/P’s utility), D/P permastealth needs to go and S/P could use some buffs. Other than that, it feels mostly alright. (I play a thief, so don’t even try to pull any arguments regarding that…). Just my humble opinion, though.

It’s still perfectly possible to burst targets. Mug was pretty ridiculous when it crit (remember, the damage is still the same as it was before, except it heals you now as well), so they addressed that. In order to compensate for the missing crit, you may need an additional hearseeker or two if things go absolutely wrong. The fact that quite a few people complained that it’d pe impossible to kill people anymore without mug crit already shows how powerful it was and needed some tweaking.

“despite the fact that the cascading complains against it have died down”
Are we playing the same game?

(Oh and btw, I have never really experienced any of the events you described as “bugs”. Or if I did, there was an obvious mechanical reason for that – f.e. if somebody dodges your steal, it’ll be on kitten cd, but that’s intended)

If anything, stealthed characters should be partially visible when struck while invisible, (That semi-transparent stuff you see when they’re on your team). Would make it a lot easier to counter stealth than it currently is and reward skilled opponents, while not making it super trivial to deal with it either.
Also, maybe ~1 sec revealed when exiting stealth without attacking (to prevent C&D chain, because that’s super annoying, even though counterable) and some changes to prevent permastealth with just BP&HS would be something I’d support as well. That would make D/P less of a pain to deal with and open D/D up for the QoL-changes (read: buff to dancing dagger and something to make LDB viable in a direct damage spec) it really needs.

Aveneo.2068:

[…]
Just look at all the benefits a Thief can get through traits that apply to stealth.

• Cloaked in Shadow (Blinds nearby foes)
  * Fleet Shadow (Move 50% faster while in stealth)
  * Hidden Assassin (Gain might)
  * Hidden Killer (100% crit chance while stealthed)
  * Shadow Protector (Grant targets of your stealth skills Regeneration)
  * Infusion of Shadow (Gain 2 initiative when using a skill that stealths)
  * Patience (Regain initiative faster)
  * Shadow’s Embrace (Remove one condition every three seconds)
  * Shadow’s Rejuvenation (Regenerate health)

[…]

You seem to be forgetting something…

I feel like putting all of your 70 points into traits that buff stealth sort of justifies it doing a lot of stuff.

Depends on the build you run.

If we’re talking about a rather balanced build, D/P is better in pretty much every regard, except for initiative management, mostly because the BP/HS-combo takes 9 initiative to stealth you rather than 6. That can, however, be dealt with via appropriate traits. Being able to stealth on demand is extremely strong and the potential to remain in stealth permanently (which is pretty OP imo) can save you from certain death in a variety of scenarios.
D/P has insane sticking power and if you build it properly you have an insane amount of ways to disengage as well, making you a true pain to fight.
this should be a solid base for a balanced D/P-build. I’d definetly pick up condition remove on stealth as well as shadow’s rejuvenation if I were you, but they’re not mandatory. Vigorous Recovery coupled with withdraw gets you a high vigor uptime and an additional dodge for tons of mitigation, a really good combo that I don’t see a lot of people run for some reason.

For burst, I personally don’t like D/P as much as D/D (although it is more reliable because it’s harder to prevent you from stealthing), as you have to spend a higher amount of initiative for the initial burst.
However, I don’t run GC (or burst) builds a lot myself, so I’m not super experienced regarding those.

For S/P, while I don’t use it myself, from what I’ve seen and heard, it’s kind of a meh set. Pistol Whip’s damage is unreliable and kind of low, the nerf to quickness hit it rather hard. If you do want to use this, I’d propably go with a venom or two for CC so you can get your PW off more reliably. Overall, not a lot of advantages on S/D, especially with the new FS/LS combo imo.

/E: Although obviously, in WvW, you can use mobs to stealth as well (which kind of weakens D/P’s stealth on demand), it’s definetly not a bad set and I use it myself, however, I still consider D/P to be more versatile and stronger overall.

They are rather cheap if you use them as a group, As a single player, yes, they are relatively costly. However, when you’re working as a group of 10 people or more, the cost is fairly low.
This isn’t about making a single thief useless either. The debuff is applied in an AoE according to the patch notes, meaning it can effect multiple targets (keep in mind, Mesmers use stealth as well, although they don’t rely on it as much as thieves).

Considering how much damage control and utility thieves lose by not being able to stealth, I consider the 30 second duration to strong.

The ability to place traps while stealthed is definetly not a good idea. I entirely agree with you that this should not be possible.

However, the fact that you can use an item you bought to severely hinder a class (unless they are using a stealthless or low-stealth build) is not the right way to go, in my eyes. That’s like being able to buy health potions, and having them being usable in WvW. Is it worth it to drop a trap just to kill a single thief? Propably not. Although you have to keep in mind that some people have played this game enough to amass a large amount of karma and badges, meaning they will be able to afford a lot of these traps. I don’t think it’s right to be able to counter a build reliant on stealth because you’re wealthy.

Think about it, if somebody were able to purchase any item they could use on you to prevent might stacking for 30 seconds. If somebody used that on you, you would propably lose to them in a fight, even if you’re more skilled than them, because your build is reliant on might. Even if it weren’t “cost-efficient” for them, I guess you wouldn’t be too happy about that regardless. Losing because your opponent spent gold/badges/karma (maybe even gems in the long run, who knows?) on a consumable item that makes it trivial for them to counter your build doesn’t seem fair to me.

Besides, like I said, I don’t see the reason for the revealed duration to be this long. This is propably supposed to stop mesmers from stealthing their zerg for a surprise attack – the thing is, a much lower duration revealed debuff would serve this purpose perfectly fine, simply seeing the enemy zerg approach you for, say, 5 seconds would be enough to react in my opinion.

Now, I’m pretty annoyed by this. Mostly because of two things:

Firstly, these things are dirt cheap. 15 badges and 525 karma is not a lot, really, while the traps last for up to one hour, which is ridiculous – that’s twice as long as siege lasts (unless tapped, which doesn’t work for traps I suppose, but an hour still feels way too long).

And secondly, the fact that they do not only rip you out of stealth, but also apply revealed for 30 seconds. If a thief triggers one of those, if they don’t outright die because of being unable to avoid being seen (duh), they do not have access to:

1. Stealth skills, which are mandatory for burst damage in D/X specs, control in S/X specs, quickly stacking bleeds in P/X condition specs
2. Ability to throw enemies off about your positioning (which is currently one of the thiefs primary strenghs and an important tool to reduce damage taken)
3. Any and all benefits from the following traits:
Hidden Killer, Last Refuge, Meld with Shadows, Hidden Assassin, Shadow Protector, Shadow’s Embrace, Infusion of Shadow, Cloaked in Shadow, Hidden Thief, Patience, Shadow’s Rejuvenation, Descent of Shadows, Fleet of Shadow, Instinctual Response.

(Some of these have AoE-effects or secondary effects that work without being stealthed, but these are generally rather weak)

Most of these are from the “Shadow Arts” line.
Leaving us with 5 (yes, five) major traits in that tree that do not drastically lose effect by having revealed applied. Two of these are related to venoms, and are therefor only of any interest in a venom-based build. Two of the remaining ones are highly situational (Slowed pulse and Power Shot), leaving us with Master of Deception. However, since two of our four deception wkills are mostly used to apply stealth to ourselves and allies, this trait is severely weakened as well.

This means that if a thief triggers an anti-stealth trap, this entire trait line is essentially useless outside of stat points gained. A high amount of traits from other trees is affected from this as well. No other class can get into a situation where more than 10 traits become useless and a highly important class mechanic (stealth skills) becomes inaccessible for such a huge amount of time. This quite literally is the equivalent of preventing a mesmer from creating clones or disabling a ranger’s ability to command his pet for 30 seconds.

Losing a tool that is extremely important for both offense and defense and that many side-effects are tied to for such a long time by triggering a trap that is most likely invisible to the thief is not acceptable if the traps are as easily accessible as they are, whether the AoE is just 600 units wide or not.

Okay, I’ve tried to replace the P/D’s that didn’t make sense to me with D/P:

the 2nd video got messed up as i said above posts….sorry im super new to this video and editing thing. look at the first video. you put D/P build in any of those instances…..and you are dead…..heck p/d died in the first camp part right next to me.

I disagree with you here. If built properly, D/P can be one of the most survivable sets the thief has access to. This is not because of insane tanking capabilities (even though, with the right gear and traits, you become quite beefy), but because you can disengage pretty much at will. High mobility via shadow shot and stealth on demand by using the BP/HS-combo allow D/P to reset fights almost infinitely often while regaining a lot of health via regen in stealth.

perfect example. it does have the hp/tankiness to deal with any mistakes in larger group fighting. ill make the 1 v x video when i have more footage as i was picked on for the first bc i only had 1 hour to choose from. and again…until anyone shows me a video of D/P getting into the action and stop standing on the outskirts like a wimpy like build….. its not a better build.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRcTKt47ixk

There you go. May not be a perfect example, but it definetly shows that D/ kitten urvivable even is the odds are not in ones favor.

1 v 1 has no place in this game, atleast not yet. hence me offering advice / opinion to other players on diff threads who were talking about it. its funny ,,again, that no videos can show gettting into the mix and throwing caltrops …daggerstorms…. but i did it :P …survived fine….killed plenty. anyway 5 enemies are NOT alot. and in the first video there isnt one fight with less than like 10 people…the 2nd outside the camp had like 7 granted but thats onlyh one small continued fight from the camp where there were like 9-10 invaders plus the full camp attacking. p/d is 10x better than D/P in zerg play.

That is down to the way you set the D/P (and P/D, of course) up and how you play them. In my opinion, D/P is excellent to surf a zerg’s tail end during a fight, picking on the squishy enemies hiding behind their tankier allies. Since it has excellent possibilities to disengage, it is fairly easy to put a lot of pressure on people in the back and retreat if necessary. After healing up, you can just reengage. I never tried to do this with P/D, however, I feel like it would be less efficient as P/D has a much higher time to kill due to being condition-based and having a limited amount of conditions available to cover its bleeds with, so it’s very vulnerable to (AoE-)condition remove. So, it depends on your playstyle. D/P may not have as much survivability up front, but it can compensate for that by other means.

theres not 1 video showing p/d or s/d or d/d or s/p getting intot he battle like that. period. defend your points/opinions with examples…videos…facts….numbers or something. id love a good debate…. and as ive said theres 2 people here hating….but many dozens asking me for advice and giving compliments saying ty for the amazing build and that it works gr8. i can do a few vids on d/p s/d too but ill wait till i have a bunch of footage so i can pick and choose 10 sec spots to make it look really more cool /powerful than it is. :P

Now, don’t get me wrong, P/D is not a weak set. However, I believe you underrate D/P a lot. It may not suit your playstyle very well, but for myself, I found it to be extremely survivable and very powerful if you play your cards right.
At the end of the day. it all comes down to personal preference though.

Perfectly fair, if there are traps negating protection, vigor, regen aegis (and other stuff like that) as well. Otherwise, not so much.

Travlane.5948:

the 2nd video got messed up as i said above posts….sorry im super new to this video and editing thing. look at the first video. you put p/d build in any of those instances…..and you are dead…..heck p/d died in the first camp part right next to me. perfect example. it does have the hp/tankiness to deal with any mistakes in larger group fighting. ill make the 1 v x video when i have more footage as i was picked on for the first bc i only had 1 hour to choose from. and again…until anyone shows me a video of p/d getting into the action and stop standing on the outskirts like a wimpy like build….. its not a better build. 1 v 1 has no place in this game, atleast not yet. hence me offering advice / opinion to other players on diff threads who were talking about it. its funny ,,again, that no videos can show gettting into the mix and throwing caltrops …daggerstorms…. but i did it :P …survived fine….killed plenty. anyway 5 enemies are NOT alot. and in the first video there isnt one fight with less than like 10 people…the 2nd outside the camp had like 7 granted but thats onlyh one small continued fight from the camp where there were like 9-10 invaders plus the full camp attacking. p/d is 10x better than p/d in zerg play. theres not 1 video showing p/d or s/d or d/d or s/p getting intot he battle like that. period. defend your points/opinions with examples…videos…facts….numbers or something. id love a good debate…. and as ive said theres 2 people here hating….but many dozens asking me for advice and giving compliments saying ty for the amazing build and that it works gr8. i can do a few vids on d/p s/d too but ill wait till i have a bunch of footage so i can pick and choose 10 sec spots to make it look really more cool /powerful than it is. :P

What exactly are you trying to say? I assume you mixed up P/D and some other set in this post, because the way it is right now, I’m unable to comprehend it…

I’d also appreciate if you would take a little more time to work some proper punctuation as well as some structure into your posts, I personally find them very hard to read.

I’m not sure whether you’re just trying to troll at this point.
5v5 are not “zergs”. Your second video was supposed to have “1vX”, according to yourself, however, it clearly doesn’t, neither does it contain a demonstration of your build being effective in a situation that involves a lot of players (repeating myself, 5 enemies are not a lot in WvW).

P/D is definetly not an effective build for zerg play. Stop claiming otherwise, it’s simply not true. I mean, what are you going to do? stand in your zerg and VS the enemies? At best you’re gonna stealth in, drop caltrops, get a few ticks of daggerstorm of and then retreat back. That’s less damage than a single guradian does by spamming retal on your zerg (well, unless people are dumb enough to stand inside your caltrops all day, however, zergs generally have tons of (AoE-) condition remove, so that’s propably not going to do a whole lot either), and guardians provide tons of additional utility on top of that.

Also, you’d have to be a fool to believe that the only way to contribute in WvW is zerging. Flipping supply camps as well as killing or guarding dolyaks are incredibly valuable things to do, and they generally involve small scale PvP, which the thief really excels at.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to say that P/D is a bad set in general, because it isn’t. However, it’s not the only option for small group fights and it’s far from being the best option for group play.

He must have had fury, (2554-916)/21=78, plus 4% base crit chance means 82%, adding fury gets him to 102%.
Not that it mattered all that much, thieves have pretty good access to fury if you really want it.
Funniest application of this build would propably be HS spam. Hell, with 100% crit and full zerker that should hit pretty decent even on higher health targets. Most likely not as good as a standard burst combo, but hey, it’s fun and that’s what matters

I don’t think the nerf is going to make me switch builds permanently. I’m mostly annoyed by the fact that my PvE rotation got screwed up, although I’m pretty sure I’ll get used to that. Because hidden killer is bugged I switched to 0/10/30/30/0 D/P for WvW, although I’m thinking about going all-out burst for a while…

I’m still running 0/30/30/10 in PvE for now and won’t switch any time soon, just hoping that stupid bug is fixed soon, it’s hitting my dungeon dps far more than the actual nerf.