Guild Wars 2

IndigoSundown.5419:

Obtena.7952:

SteepledHat.1345:

MashMash.1645:

Why do raiders get this perk?

The answer to this question is every issue in HoT.

The answer to this is in every game ever: There is a something you have to do to get the reward to finishing that something. Maybe people are to accustomed being told that they are winners for just participating, but that’s not how life works or games for that matter. Raiders get this ‘perk’ simply because they have done what is necessary to get it.

I would have thought that Legendary Armor, exclusive access to new prefix Asc. trinkets for months and better access to Asc. gear in general was enough of a perk for the privilege of being given harder content that the raid demographic has been demanding for a long time.

If you’re going to use other games as a defense, name one MMO where leveling is gated behind raids. The Mastery system is a leveling stand-in. So is Shards.

Also, “It’s that way because our beloved overlord ANet has decreed it be so” is a kitten poor defense. If that were the answer to every issue, then there would never have been raids in GW2.

Raider, 158 mastery points, haven’t finished the Nuhoch mastery, don’t get spirit shards. Still not kicking a fuss about it because it’s a pointless thing to be mad about. Yawn.

Next.

Ayrilana.1396:

Blaeys.3102:

It’s not critical and it is not required, but I do believe they were both part of the same story arc. The raid was the player’s first introduction to the current conflict and what the White Mantle was actually up to.

Show Spoiler

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As an example, when the Lazarus revelation came at the end, those who had experienced the raid story had a better understanding of how he came to be there – and they felt a much stronger connection to that storyline. For everyone else, it likely came out of left field – and definitely didn’t have that same level of connection.

The same is true earlier in the living story when we learn of the bloodstone explosion and its effect on NPCs – and of certain details surrounding the White Mantle.

Raiders were there first. They were given the chance (those that cared about that kind of thing) at greater immersion into the plot. And, that isn’t something that can be achieved with video or a few lines of NPC dialogue text (and definitely not with a cleared instance).

It potentially lessens the excitement for non raiders and makes them feel disenfranchised (we some examples of that in this very thread).

My point, however, is that this level of disconnect is not necessary. They need to take a more holistic approach to the PvE end game, making sure everything is there for all players to experience – and then add the challenge across multiple areas of the game through tiered difficulty levels – creating a mix of accessibility, challenge and storytelling tools that aren’t hindered by either of those things.

You’re making the raid story out to be more than it really is.

Agreed on this count. I didn’t feel much of anything when Lazarus was ‘introduced’ (not much of an introduction given he doesn’t even appear). Blaeys is really overstating the impact it has.

As for claims that raiders were ‘first’, well then. [SALT] were the very first in the world to kill Matthias and witness that mursaat cutscene, which was more of a recap than anything else. Should I be envious of them? The same goes to non-raiders: Why should you be envious when you can do it yourself? I won’t restate what so many people have already said, but to be simple, the ones setting the barriers are you yourself.

Raids need to be engaging with their story as well. Complaining about it just because you’re lazy/too busy to raid is pointless. I currently live in Southeast Asia, and play in an EU server. I may not get to raid much in the future either – but I’d never resent people for being able to do what I can’t.

Everyone is going to be first at something, getting bitter about it won’t change it. It’s how the world works. Adapt and learn.

I’m a raider. I haven’t completed the last Nuhoch mastery, and I don’t get shards in HoT maps as well. It’s fine in core Tyrian zones though, so it’s outright wrong how you’re not getting spirit shards at all.

My suggestion: Instead of complaining about how raid masteries are ‘strong-arming’ you into a raid you don’t like, try and get 10 people for wing 3’s first encounter. It’s basically an extended event with no time limit, and incredibly easy to do. It unlocks your mastery, and you’ll never need to raid ever again.

Otherwise, there isn’t a problem – unless you choose to make it a problem yourself.

Eponet.4829:

Sabetha.4910:

Eponet.4829:

Assic.2746:

Eponet.4829:

The issue isn’t that the story is impossible to understand, it’s that they just assumed that the audience had already played the raids, and designed the story around that, then threw in exposition dumps as afterthoughts for everyone else.

Forsaken Thicket story:
1. Find and save Pact Squad.
2. Find and save Bennett.
3. Finish the local WM leader.

Bloodstone Fen story:
1. Pursue Caudecus.
2. Pressume that Caudecus caused the explosion and sucked up all the magic.
3. Learn that Caudecus is actually a White Mantle confessor and he’s not crazy like everyone else down there on the ground so he wasn’t affected by the explosion.
4. Lazarus appears.

Two completly different stories. They designed Bloodstone Fen the way Forsaken Thicket was designed. First you make it through the encounters then you have time to gather all the notes, read them and sum up the informations to learn what had really happened. There is a minimal amount of lore in the encounters and a ton of optional lore.

And all of sudden it is so difficult for people to understand that bloodstone explosion wasn’t caused by the events which happened in raid, it wasn’t caused by Caudecus. It was caused by a player character who killed Zhaitan and Mordremoth. It overloaded the Bloodstone, its ‘shell’ was damaged by the WM experiments which didn’t have place in raids and ultimately led to its explosion. The exlosion is a result of HoT’s story not raid’s story. There is nothing about it in raid. All the informations come from NPCs and notes in Bloodstone Fen.

And also they didn’t assume that audience already went though the raid, because Bennett has two different sets of dialogs. One for players who managed to save him and the other for players who didn’t play the raid.

It’s amazing how much people think they know.

I can’t help feeling that you’re being deliberately dense.

If you had read more than just the paragraph that you quoted, you’d have realised that the whole point about his inclusion being an issue is because he seems like he’s going to be a major character in the story, while the scenes that are meant to give us an attachment to him were ommited because he had already been introduced elsewhere.

Those that didn’t complete the raids have no personal connection to him, thus lowering the impact of anything involving him, thus lowering the quality of the story for them.

Having finished Spirit Vale, you’re completely underselling the impact that they have. The aesthetics of the area and dialogue of the characters give a sense of what was actually happening as you pass through, even without stopping to look for notes.

The fact that information is provided about the necessary parts isn’t in question, the issue is that the way it was presented, a sudden lore dump with zero emotional impact is the issue. If it had been told in the proper manner, the antagonists would have been introduced in the same way that we saw with Mordremoth in Season 2, where strange occurrences occur, then we go to investigate them, run into a few of their subordinates, and look through their labs, essentially, actively discovering the information ourselves rather than just reading a manual as is done with the White Mantle and Cannach.

Lazarus’ introduction was the only good instance of the raid points being covered in the Living Story, and is what they should have done with them all. Tied it into another high impact plot, delivered it in a natural way, and most importantly of all, not killed the pacing.

The White Mantle recap however, was absolutely abysmal. Imagine if say, Mistborn had started with;
“The Final Empire is a totalitarian dictatorship run by a single leader titled the lord ruler (His real name is unknown). He is credited for saving the world in the past, and now worshiped as a god. Though the lord ruler sets policy, the groups that see to the maintenance of the empire are the Steel Ministry and the aristocracy.

The Aristocracy is split into many noble houses, the great houses are those that hold stronger political and economic ties than the majority of other noble houses. These great houses tend to keep residences in Luthadel (The capital city) as signs of status, even when the majority of their operations take place outside of it. The current most powerful noble House is Venture, run by its head Straff Venture. It’s sole heir Elend rarely shows an interest in the political climate and prefers to spend his time reading at parties.

The Steel Inquisition is divided into four Cantons; The Canton of Finance, the Canton of Orthodoxy, the Canton of Resources, and the Canton of Inquisition. Each of these cantons has their own function…"

If it had covered the necessary information in the same way that the recap covered the White Mantle, I would have without a doubt put it back in disgust immediately after reading the very first page, or perhaps not even having gone that far.

Sorry, what? Lazarus is a character that goes back to GW1, you don’t even see him in raids. He’s referenced, but never actually appears. So no, your assumption that raiders would have more of a ‘personal connection’ is downright wrong. I’ve never played GW1 – should I feel offended that Anet’s not handing the original Mursaat storyline to me on a platter?

Also, as a huge Mistborn (and Cosmere) fan, your analogy comparing the White Mantle recap to Mistborn is utter nonsense. For starters, you’re comparing a series of novels to an MMO. The pacing is different, the medium is different, the information dump is going to be different. You don’t do storytelling the same way in all different mediums, that’s just ridiculous.

Now let’s look at the raid story. You have:

- A mercenary squad goes into Spirit Vale, Salvation Pass and Stronghold of the Faithful to rescue Bennett, than wipe out the White Mantle holding that area.

In LS S3, you have:

- The soon-to-be former Pact Commander crashing in Bloodstone Fen after a bloodstone goes kaboom, then chasing Caudecus and encountering White Mantle (after months of random WM encounters in Tyria) and realizing that Lazarus has been brought back to life, presumably through the energy of the bloodstone that was released.

How does this really require more than just a recap to begin with from raids? You didn’t need raids to know the White Mantle were returning. You didn’t need raids to know that there was a lot of magical energy running around.

If anything, the raid and LS S3’s narratives are similar to what Brandon Sanderson himself is doing with all his novels set in the Cosmere. I’ll bring up one example – Warbreaker and the Stormlight Archive. A major character in Warbreaker shows up in the Stormlight Archive. The Mistborn series as well. In fact, all those Cosmere novels have one recurring character, which is a hint to the meta story at hand.

Should I feel offended that Brandon Sanderson is restricting the Cosmere’s story from being available through more than just hints, then? Or that I have to buy multiple books to get more of that story?

TL;DR: Your analogy is wrong and as a Mistborn fan, it’s downright offensive how wrong it is.

The issue is, you’re looking at it from the events rather than the storytelling.

The big difference is, that, as he himself explained, the stories also need to hold up as good stories in their own rights. When he does bring in elements from other series as was done in some regard with Bands of Mourning, he doesn’t rely on you having read his other works, nor does he completely halt the pace of the story, creating a boring and emotionally uninteresting section purely to exposition dump those aspects like was done in the Living Story.

It’s not just novels for whom the exposition method that was used to recap the white mantle’s involvement is a sin. Movies, television shows, and even plays also try to avoid the infamous scene of two cooperative people talking in a static environment. When they are used, there’s generally something else going on, a kind of disagreement on how they perceive their relationship to one another, it’s woven in as part of another emotionally stimulating scene, something interesting is happening in the background, or it’s the peak of a romantic declaration.

As I’ve said multiple times, but that no one arguing has seemed to acknowledge, it’s not about the events and whether or not what was put in was sufficient to understand the events. It’s about whether or not the story as entertainment is weaker because of it, and it is. If you do read the recap, it kills the pacing. If you don’t, instead of proper escalation of action, you suddenly go from the White Mantle being almost complete unknowns to anyone that isn’t also a human, to them suddenly being everywhere and apparently major antagonists despite them never properly building themselves up as such, leaving the audience with almost no personal feelings towards them.

Also, in light of that, I will take back what I said regarding Lazarus. If he wasn’t a part of the raid, then they completely failed to communicate the necessary elements of the raid story in a satisfying manner. Lazarus’ introduction is in fact the sort of thing that we /should/ have seen when regarding the White Mantle, but didn’t. Presumably because they felt that since they had covered it in raids, throwing in a second hand recap would be good enough.

That’s really just your opinion. For an MMO where I’d rather be doing things, than wondering about the lore consequences, the recap was done well enough. The Mistborn series has tons of scenes where one character or another would just stop to explain stuff that was happening; I can name several examples. However, in all honesty I wish you’d stop comparing the Cosmere novels to GW2 – nobody will understand your arguments because they haven’t read the material, and the only thing it’s useful for is making you seem intellectual, which given how you butchered your analogy… well. Use something people will actually get if you want a proper response.

Also, the prologue open-world events very clearly showed the return of the White Mantle, they’re not just a threat that sprung out from nowhere. The ‘personal feelings’ complaint bears no weight either; I’ve done all three wings and I don’t feel anything special about LS S3.

As for Lazarus – again, just your opinion, and it’s so, so wrong. It was never ‘covered in raids’, there was only a recap of the mursaat’s invasion 200 years ago, plus some throwaway comments which literally could have been removed and would make no difference. Again, should I complain because Anet gave me a recap of 200 years ago and not something properly fleshed out? No one, raider or not, got anything beyond hints about the mursaat.

Your argument would be a lot more entertaining, if it weren’t so flawed in the first place.

Eponet.4829:

Assic.2746:

Eponet.4829:

The issue isn’t that the story is impossible to understand, it’s that they just assumed that the audience had already played the raids, and designed the story around that, then threw in exposition dumps as afterthoughts for everyone else.

Forsaken Thicket story:
1. Find and save Pact Squad.
2. Find and save Bennett.
3. Finish the local WM leader.

Bloodstone Fen story:
1. Pursue Caudecus.
2. Pressume that Caudecus caused the explosion and sucked up all the magic.
3. Learn that Caudecus is actually a White Mantle confessor and he’s not crazy like everyone else down there on the ground so he wasn’t affected by the explosion.
4. Lazarus appears.

Two completly different stories. They designed Bloodstone Fen the way Forsaken Thicket was designed. First you make it through the encounters then you have time to gather all the notes, read them and sum up the informations to learn what had really happened. There is a minimal amount of lore in the encounters and a ton of optional lore.

And all of sudden it is so difficult for people to understand that bloodstone explosion wasn’t caused by the events which happened in raid, it wasn’t caused by Caudecus. It was caused by a player character who killed Zhaitan and Mordremoth. It overloaded the Bloodstone, its ‘shell’ was damaged by the WM experiments which didn’t have place in raids and ultimately led to its explosion. The exlosion is a result of HoT’s story not raid’s story. There is nothing about it in raid. All the informations come from NPCs and notes in Bloodstone Fen.

And also they didn’t assume that audience already went though the raid, because Bennett has two different sets of dialogs. One for players who managed to save him and the other for players who didn’t play the raid.

It’s amazing how much people think they know.

I can’t help feeling that you’re being deliberately dense.

If you had read more than just the paragraph that you quoted, you’d have realised that the whole point about his inclusion being an issue is because he seems like he’s going to be a major character in the story, while the scenes that are meant to give us an attachment to him were ommited because he had already been introduced elsewhere.

Those that didn’t complete the raids have no personal connection to him, thus lowering the impact of anything involving him, thus lowering the quality of the story for them.

Having finished Spirit Vale, you’re completely underselling the impact that they have. The aesthetics of the area and dialogue of the characters give a sense of what was actually happening as you pass through, even without stopping to look for notes.

The fact that information is provided about the necessary parts isn’t in question, the issue is that the way it was presented, a sudden lore dump with zero emotional impact is the issue. If it had been told in the proper manner, the antagonists would have been introduced in the same way that we saw with Mordremoth in Season 2, where strange occurrences occur, then we go to investigate them, run into a few of their subordinates, and look through their labs, essentially, actively discovering the information ourselves rather than just reading a manual as is done with the White Mantle and Cannach.

Lazarus’ introduction was the only good instance of the raid points being covered in the Living Story, and is what they should have done with them all. Tied it into another high impact plot, delivered it in a natural way, and most importantly of all, not killed the pacing.

The White Mantle recap however, was absolutely abysmal. Imagine if say, Mistborn had started with;
“The Final Empire is a totalitarian dictatorship run by a single leader titled the lord ruler (His real name is unknown). He is credited for saving the world in the past, and now worshiped as a god. Though the lord ruler sets policy, the groups that see to the maintenance of the empire are the Steel Ministry and the aristocracy.

The Aristocracy is split into many noble houses, the great houses are those that hold stronger political and economic ties than the majority of other noble houses. These great houses tend to keep residences in Luthadel (The capital city) as signs of status, even when the majority of their operations take place outside of it. The current most powerful noble House is Venture, run by its head Straff Venture. It’s sole heir Elend rarely shows an interest in the political climate and prefers to spend his time reading at parties.

The Steel Inquisition is divided into four Cantons; The Canton of Finance, the Canton of Orthodoxy, the Canton of Resources, and the Canton of Inquisition. Each of these cantons has their own function…"

If it had covered the necessary information in the same way that the recap covered the White Mantle, I would have without a doubt put it back in disgust immediately after reading the very first page, or perhaps not even having gone that far.

Sorry, what? Lazarus is a character that goes back to GW1, you don’t even see him in raids. He’s referenced, but never actually appears. So no, your assumption that raiders would have more of a ‘personal connection’ is downright wrong. I’ve never played GW1 – should I feel offended that Anet’s not handing the original Mursaat storyline to me on a platter?

Also, as a huge Mistborn (and Cosmere) fan, your analogy comparing the White Mantle recap to Mistborn is utter nonsense. For starters, you’re comparing a series of novels to an MMO. The pacing is different, the medium is different, the information dump is going to be different. You don’t do storytelling the same way in all different mediums, that’s just ridiculous.

Now let’s look at the raid story. You have:

- A mercenary squad goes into Spirit Vale, Salvation Pass and Stronghold of the Faithful to rescue Bennett, than wipe out the White Mantle holding that area.

In LS S3, you have:

- The soon-to-be former Pact Commander crashing in Bloodstone Fen after a bloodstone goes kaboom, then chasing Caudecus and encountering White Mantle (after months of random WM encounters in Tyria) and realizing that Lazarus has been brought back to life, presumably through the energy of the bloodstone that was released.

How does this really require more than just a recap to begin with from raids? You didn’t need raids to know the White Mantle were returning. You didn’t need raids to know that there was a lot of magical energy running around.

If anything, the raid and LS S3’s narratives are similar to what Brandon Sanderson himself is doing with all his novels set in the Cosmere. I’ll bring up one example – Warbreaker and the Stormlight Archive. A major character in Warbreaker shows up in the Stormlight Archive. The Mistborn series as well. In fact, all those Cosmere novels have one recurring character, which is a hint to the meta story at hand.

Should I feel offended that Brandon Sanderson is restricting the Cosmere’s story from being available through more than just hints, then? Or that I have to buy multiple books to get more of that story?

TL;DR: Your analogy is wrong and as a Mistborn fan, it’s downright offensive how wrong it is.

Tarasicodissa.7084:

Shovel Face.4512:

Lol I just thought this would be a funny story. Guess not. Seems some of you got b*tthurt for no apparent reason. Sigh

No no, this absolutely is a funny story. Hilarious. Just not in the way you thought it would.

Yep, he basically posted to feel good about himself, and now he’s the one being kitten.

FeelsBadMan

Shovel Face.4512:

Sabetha.4910:

Shovel Face.4512:

Sabetha.4910:

Astralporing.1957:

…and that’s exactly why many people do not want to even attempt raiding.

If you can’t even put in a bit of effort to have reasonable runes slotted into your gear (which can be exotic for all I care) then yeah, I’m glad they don’t attempt raiding. It’s a team effort, not a solo effort. You’re wasting 9 other people’s time by trying to keep your special snowflake build when it’s not even that special.

Most raiders are reasonable otherwise. My raid guild recruited a guy who pugged with us the other day – he lacked the LI we LFGed for (he had like 5 before he started raiding with us), but he was competent and proved it.

Does that sound like elitist behavior to you?

How are you wasting 9 other people’s time with “special snowflake build” (whatever the hell that is) when me, running my pack runes, can kill VG, Gors, Etc., etc, with a huge amount of time to spare? Like I said before everything I have on my ps is the exact same thing on meta battle except for the runes. In my honest, honest opinion, only toxic elitist would kick someone because they didn’t run a specific rune. Now, I COMPLETELY understand if ur a tempest running pack runes. Yeah, I have absolutely no issue with kicking that Ele.

You’re losing out on bonus ferocity + 10% bonus damage. That’s perhaps minor, but it is still damage you opted to lose out on because you were lazy – and that is why you deserved the kick. Like I alluded to earlier, attitude is important in raids. You fall short of it by choosing to let others pick up your slack.

And be consistent with your lies, won’t you? First you say you haven’t raided with your warrior. Now you say you’ve killed bosses with it. Honestly, your trolling isn’t even halfway decent. Get good.

And yet we still get the job done. Again, you are making a big deal out of nothing.

Oh, I’m not the one making a big deal. You’re the one doing it by starting this thread.

And please stop lying about having killed bosses with your warrior. I’m more than certain by now you haven’t, given the inconsistencies in your statements.

Shovel Face.4512:

Sabetha.4910:

Astralporing.1957:

…and that’s exactly why many people do not want to even attempt raiding.

If you can’t even put in a bit of effort to have reasonable runes slotted into your gear (which can be exotic for all I care) then yeah, I’m glad they don’t attempt raiding. It’s a team effort, not a solo effort. You’re wasting 9 other people’s time by trying to keep your special snowflake build when it’s not even that special.

Most raiders are reasonable otherwise. My raid guild recruited a guy who pugged with us the other day – he lacked the LI we LFGed for (he had like 5 before he started raiding with us), but he was competent and proved it.

Does that sound like elitist behavior to you?

How are you wasting 9 other people’s time with “special snowflake build” (whatever the hell that is) when me, running my pack runes, can kill VG, Gors, Etc., etc, with a huge amount of time to spare? Like I said before everything I have on my ps is the exact same thing on meta battle except for the runes. In my honest, honest opinion, only toxic elitist would kick someone because they didn’t run a specific rune. Now, I COMPLETELY understand if ur a tempest running pack runes. Yeah, I have absolutely no issue with kicking that Ele.

You’re losing out on bonus ferocity + 10% bonus damage. That’s perhaps minor, but it is still damage you opted to lose out on because you were lazy – and that is why you deserved the kick. Like I alluded to earlier, attitude is important in raids. You fall short of it by choosing to let others pick up your slack.

And be consistent with your lies, won’t you? First you say you haven’t raided with your warrior. Now you say you’ve killed bosses with it. Honestly, your trolling isn’t even halfway decent. Get good.

Shovel Face.4512:

Sabetha.4910:

Shovel Face.4512:

Haha nice to know y’all be keeping tabs on me. And just so we’re all clear here, I had ascended everything, all zerk gear and weapons had sigil of force and air. Only thing was the pack runes lol. Way to make a big deal about runes. Lawl. Like I said, love this GW2 raid community.

>Says he’s experienced in all things raiding
>Asks for warrior rotation
>Doesn’t have reasonably-meta runes slotted

Top kek my friend, top kek. Please, don’t embarrass yourself any further.

Edit: I like how you’re going for Trio despite supposedly being this experienced raider who’s cleared everything. Why would you need to do Trio again? Haven’t you cleared everything already this week?

I call baloney on your claims.

Lol maybe because you need 150 LI to craft the legendary armor? Idk man

About the ps warr thing, I only ever raided with DD and DH. Decided I would try PS since a guildie told me it was faceroll easy to use in raids and everyone is always looking for them.

Shouldn’t someone as ‘experienced’ as you are be clearing it on reset? How amusing.

DD and DH – so you’re not experienced at all with PS warrior, simply gear one, walk into a LFG and demand a spot, get kicked anyway, and then come here and whine about it? Wow.

There goes your claims about being an experienced raider out the window, then. I wonder what else will too.

Shovel Face.4512:

Haha nice to know y’all be keeping tabs on me. And just so we’re all clear here, I had ascended everything, all zerk gear and weapons had sigil of force and air. Only thing was the pack runes lol. Way to make a big deal about runes. Lawl. Like I said, love this GW2 raid community.

>Says he’s experienced in all things raiding
>Asks for warrior rotation
>Doesn’t have reasonably-meta runes slotted

Top kek my friend, top kek. Please, don’t embarrass yourself any further.

Edit: I like how you’re going for Trio despite supposedly being this experienced raider who’s cleared everything. Why would you need to do Trio again? Haven’t you cleared everything already this week?

I call baloney on your claims.

Astralporing.1957:

…and that’s exactly why many people do not want to even attempt raiding.

If you can’t even put in a bit of effort to have reasonable runes slotted into your gear (which can be exotic for all I care) then yeah, I’m glad they don’t attempt raiding. It’s a team effort, not a solo effort. You’re wasting 9 other people’s time by trying to keep your special snowflake build when it’s not even that special.

Most raiders are reasonable otherwise. My raid guild recruited a guy who pugged with us the other day – he lacked the LI we LFGed for (he had like 5 before he started raiding with us), but he was competent and proved it.

Does that sound like elitist behavior to you?

Shovel Face.4512:

Sabetha.4910:

I would have kicked you as well, if I were the raid leader, Envoy Armor and 80 LI or not, for two reasons:

1. Pack runes don’t grant bonuses as useful. It’s not even about damage – I’d take someone with Strength runes. Sure, there’s always food and utility, but why should I bring someone who clearly can’t be bothered to optimize their gear? It’s a sign of laziness. You may have cleared everything, but a good raider is defined by more than just skill, which brings me to my second point.

2. Attitude. Your flaming and ‘showing off’ (if it can even be called that) tells me you’re not a raider worth anyone’s time. Nobody, from the newcomer to raids to the most experienced players in guilds that clear raid bosses on the first try while everyone’s hungover from the previous night should be given a free pass to be belligerent and obnoxious. You’re free to not change your runes. What you are not free to do is turn into a scum-spewing person because someone decided you weren’t what they were looking for, due to your own laziness.

Well done for that raid leader, I would not want to deal with your condescending attitude either.

Lol who are you? Don’t tell me what pack runes do lmao. First of all, if we’re gonna talk attitude, then let me be the first to tell you this raid leader wasn’t the angel from heaven either, because I am sure as hell you weren’t in that squad, in that s**tshow.

I host many PUG for raids and when ppl who arnt exp come in, despite me putting exp on the lfm, I take my time to teach them and help them. So don’t talk to me about “attitude” because you seem like one of those ppl who ask for “120 LI, full asc, multi class” just for a VG kill.

The reverse applies: Who are you? Who are you to bring unoptimized gear into a PUG raid and demand they accept you because “I host many PUG for raids and when ppl who arnt exp come in, despite me putting exp on the lfm, I take my time to teach them and help them”?

Perhaps the raid leader wasn’t a saint, but I don’t see said raid leader stinking up the place complaining about a warrior with pack runes. Said warrior however, is, and bragging about their skill and supposed benevolence.

You haven’t really shown a good reason as to why anyone should side with you on this.

I would have kicked you as well, if I were the raid leader, Envoy Armor and 80 LI or not, for two reasons:

1. Pack runes don’t grant bonuses as useful. It’s not even about damage – I’d take someone with Strength runes. Sure, there’s always food and utility, but why should I bring someone who clearly can’t be bothered to optimize their gear? It’s a sign of laziness. You may have cleared everything, but a good raider is defined by more than just skill, which brings me to my second point.

2. Attitude. Your flaming and ‘showing off’ (if it can even be called that) tells me you’re not a raider worth anyone’s time. Nobody, from the newcomer to raids to the most experienced players in guilds that clear raid bosses on the first try while everyone’s hungover from the previous night should be given a free pass to be belligerent and obnoxious. You’re free to not change your runes. What you are not free to do is turn into a scum-spewing person because someone decided you weren’t what they were looking for, due to your own laziness.

Well done for that raid leader, I would not want to deal with your condescending attitude either.

Singarti.5862:

Thank you for your advice, Sykper and fishball. My current plan is indeed to try and find a training run or guild over the weekend.

Sabetha, my WoW raiding experience, all accomplished when that content was relevant, includes the following:
- Classic: MC, BWL, AQ40, Naxx40 up until and including Sapphiron;
- BC: Kara, TKT, SSC, Hydjal and BT before nerfs. Did not raid in Sunwell;
- WotLK: Naxx10 and Naxx25, EoE (Malygos), OS25+3, Ulduar10 first 4 bosses. Took a break from the game at that point and did not raid until the release of Cataclysm;
- Cataclysm: HM BWD25, HM BoT25 (not including Sinestra), HM TFW25, HM FL25, HM DS25;
- Mists: HM Mogushan Terrace 25 (not including the last boss), HM HoF25 (3/6), HM TES25 (3/4), HM ToT25 (1/13), HM SoO25 (10/14)
- Warlords (at this point I’ve taken a more casual approach in WoW, focusing on the raiding in Wildstar): Highmaul Heroic 7/7, BRF Heroic 10/10, HFC Heroic 13/13.

My raiding experience in Wildstar:
- Genetic Archives: Phagemaw before the Dominion side of the Oceanic community ceased to exist in late 2014. Later on got full clear after rerolling on the Exile side.
- Datascape20: 14/15, Avatus killed multiple times, the only boss not killed is the Water/Fire elemental pair.

Additionally I’ve done some casual LFG raiding in FF14:ARR’s Crystal Tower, clearing it.

At this point, I would say that in general I am an experienced raider and I am completely aware of how raiding mechanics work in MMOs. After watching more than a couple of guides and kill videos on YouTube on GW2 raiding, I can safely say that I understand the mechanics of GW2 raids, such as break bars, tanking, personal responsibilities. I also can not say that what I’ve seen is impossibly difficult and requires extensive experience to beat – you should simply be performing well within your role, be it a tank, dps, condi or healing and everything will fall into place. Just like in every raid content of any other MMO really, so that’s nothing new.

In my case, faking GW2 raiding experience will simply not work by using those codes since, first of all, it would be quite strange for a person with, say, 50LI to still be at 161 mastery level and, second, I don’t have the Legendary Armor collection The Envoy unlocked or complete, which, from what I’m told, is either hard to fake with codes, or not possible at all. Attentive person would see through such antics fairly quickly and I have no desire to straight out blatantly lie to people just in order to get invited into a raid group.

Be mindful however that I have never said anything about expecting to be invited to multiple raids all at once at first beck and call. More so, I have not been just sitting idly and doing nothing – I have, in fact, been actively using in-game tools to achieve the set goal. Still, as I have already said, it is quite hard to find any raiding group at all with the time zone difference and the ones that I have got in contact with have been rather unpleasant.

Regarding your comment on the set meta, I fail to see any issues with following it since I am quite familiar with the fact that there are always builds that are more optimal for raid performance. I have not made any statements claiming otherwise either. I have absolutely no problems with adopting a build that is considered the best at the moment if that means my dps/healing/tanking will be better.
And yes, people have stated this exact cancerous phrase in one of the similar threads on this forum, clarifying that this is their right to flip anyone off at their own convenience because what they want is a fast clear with as little hick ups as possible. I am not going to try disputing that and, if I remember correctly, such a reply was made in an argument about, once again, builds. See my own personal stance on the builds matter above. That however left a very negative impression on the raiding community here and my own experience with the people from it is not making it any better.

I do however wonder why you though it would be appropriate to throw in the “special snowflakes and lazy people” part in your reply to my post, Sabetha, and how that applies specifically to my current situation with GW2 raiding.

Again, it means nothing at all, until you have defeated a GW2 raid boss. Sure, having raided in other games will likely prepare you mentally for multiple failures until you get the kill, and the organizational aspects of it. Otherwise, it has no bearing at all. It will not help you get a definite kill on Matthias on your first ever attempt, for example.

I’ve also seen people with 161 mastery points who have raided – now that the third wing is out, it is actually possible to have 161 and have done raids (successfully).

If you don’t like the seeming ‘toxicity’ of people in raids, remember that not everyone has the time to educate a newcomer (and don’t repeat the whole ‘experienced raider’ thing, until you’ve done a GW2 boss you are not experienced in the GW2 context). Set up your own raid group. Find a friendly raid guild. LFG for a friendly training run. If you’re already taking things into your own hands, then this shouldn’t be too hard.

As for my remark about ‘special snowflakes and lazy people’, it was not meant specifically for you, but at those like the OP and it explains why people have no time to bring in a newcomer. Aren’t you experienced in raiding elsewhere? Then this should be pretty understandable, yes? People simply do not like to carry random strangers, not when it can mean an hour here or there wasted.

Singarti.5862:

Are the raids terribly hard for newcomers to get get in? Yes. Allow me to elaborate.

I am an Oceanic player and have started playing GW2 in roughly November of 2015. Being quite casual in this game since I actively raid in another MMORPG called Wildstar, I have still managed to accumulate somewhat a little over 3,7k AP, crafted a full set of ascended gear for all slots but the second aquatic weapon and got to the Expert level fractals from scratch.

As I was still learning the differences and mechanics of GW2 combat and stats I took advice from one of the numerous YouTubers, went to Metabattle and got myself a viable build for my profession, a PS Berserker Warrior. I have watched and read a couple of guides on a what the dungeon/raid role of this profession is and have been playing in that build ever since. Needless to say, my ascended gear has the current meta zerk stats with appropriate runes and sigils.

Now I come to a point where I’ve seen the fractals, dungeons and their multiple paths, world bosses, massive map-wide events and have maxed out all of the available mastery tracks, sitting at the mastery level of 161. I realize that there’s one more track that is unlocked after defeating a boss in Forsaken Thicket. Well, seeing as GW2 raiding is one of the few types of content that I have not seen yet other than PvP, I decide to give it a try.

My guild, a small Oceanic one that generally consists of players from Australia and NZ, tells me to contact a certain person that is also a part of this guild and who can help me get into raiding. After doing so I am given the following requirements: have full ascended gear and have a correct raid-viable spec for my profession. Stating that I meet of these requirements, I am then asked if I have any raiding experience at all, even from other MMOs, to which I lay out 11 years of raiding in WoW and having cleared the raid content in Wildstar. I am then told by that person “interviewing” me that they have a “similar” raiding experience and that it doesn’t mean anything at all. A second later this person asks if Wildstar is “that other MMO that turned out to be kitten” and I realize that they have absolutely no idea what level of general raiding experience I possess.

Regardless, I ask what should I do next to get into raids in GW2 then and the answer is, quote, “find a pug, fake the experience until you make it”. Using the LFG tools I monitor the LFM raiding tab and advertise myself in the LFG one, but every single person that contacted me or replied to my inquires has asked for this Legendary Insight number, which, to my understanding only shows how many boss kills you have while not indicating the actual bosses that you may have killed. Seeing as I have 0, I am told to kitten off. Literally.

I ask in the guild chat if this is a common type of behavior, to which I get a reply that it is and that is exactly the reason why the majority of the guild does not raid at all. Someone pointed out that my other option is to find something called a training guild and get my raiding experience with them, however at this point I doubt that I will consider raiding in GW2 at all anymore – just get a VG kill to unlock that last mastery track and that’s it. The time zone difference doesn’t make any part of this process any easier however.

Then I come here, to these forums, and see people openly saying that those who are getting into raids just now should feel obliged to the veterans since the vets are the ones who figured out all the strategies and raid comps and that makes it okay for them to act like this. It is as if people have never raided in any MMOs at all and are trying to reinvent the wheel.

TL;DR: The GW2 raiding community in general is extremely toxic towards new potential raiders and does not fit my preferred MMO environment.

Raiding in other MMOs doesn’t mean you’ll be superb at raiding in GW2. 11 years of raiding only means anything in the actual game where you raided. Just because I’ve raided in GW2 doesn’t mean I’ll know anything in Wildstar raids either.

Also, you do realize quite a few people fake their Legendary Insight number? It’s not hard, grab a chat code, make sure you’re familiar with the mechanics and go raiding. If you play your part well, nobody will ever question you. If people told you to ‘kitten off’, that’s because they’re looking for experienced raiders, not newcomers who need to learn.

The other option is to join a training group, and I see quite a few LFGs every week. Or join a guild – someone posted a link listing guilds that do training runs. It’s not hard at all, if you’re willing to look for a solution. If not… don’t blame us. The solution is in your hands, take it or leave it.

And no, nobody’s telling the would-be raiders they should feel obliged to the ones who set the meta. If you have a better build, explain why and how it’s better with conclusive evidence, and everyone will adopt your build. The meta isn’t about what comes first, it’s about what’s the most efficient.

TL;DR the GW2 raiding community in general has no time to waste on special snowflakes or lazy people and if you can’t accept that, it’s best that you not raid to begin with.

Enko.6123:

I’ve just had a two hour in game conversation with the OP via whispers and quote "being the “nice one” typically doesn’t get you anywhere in life". On responding to me asking him why he thinks its ok to be a kittenbag, he responded with “why wouldn’kitten it works more often for most cases on aand off game”.

I tried giving an example of him getting a new job with no experience and being the guy that tells his boss that he can do his job better than the boss and he replied back that he’s done that and it provides new perspective to his boss.

The entire conversation summed up to him saying not playing friendly with people and being a jerk is more productive and meta builds aren’t good to him because he personally didn’t test or come up with them and he doesn’t wan to run them.

If anyone want screenshots of the conversation, I’m willing to provide.

LOL, since when did being hostile and edgy get anyone anywhere? More than willing to bet whoever this is has no real working experience.

On the plus side, I’ll be keeping an eye on this person (being on the EU side myself) and warning any fellow raid members if he ever shows up. I have no interest in coaching people who bring such an attitude to a team game.

Zenith.7301:

I didn’t say gating it behind Ley Line Gliding was a bad thing; I said that the view that putting in more masteries as a replacement for gear check would not be remotely the same time investment.

You are hopeless. Go strawman somebody else.

Oh, really?

“I don’t want people who I invite to come raid with me in this game to be told " You’re gonna grind braindead dynamic events and waste days on ridiculous gold adventure medals or camping NPC’s for specific dynamic event steps to get enough mastery and xp to be raid ready".

WoW doesn’t do this. You can virtually gear up for entry to raids in WoW or FFXIV or Wildstar in a week or two of 2-3 hour play sessions."

Your last sentence implies that the problem with the masteries is time, which has already been shown to be dishonest. I am not strawmanning you. You are simply avoiding the argument you made.

Unless you mean to imply that grinding for gear is a lot more fun than grinding for masteries, despite being 1. Character-bound for some MMOs and 2. Never-ending?

I fail to see the logic in this.

Zenith.7301:

Sabetha.4910:

Zenith.7301:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Get the mastery or don’t do the raid boss that requires it; there are other raid wings and bosses in the third wing which don’t require the mastery for you to play if you don’t want to get the mastery. It’s really that simple.

If you’re opposed to the concept of masteries being required for raids, my opinion is that I disagree with you because raids are end-game PvE content and masteries are like leveling up skills for use in PvE. It makes perfect sense to me to incorporate masteries into raids, like the Speed/Adrenal Mushrooms in Spirit Vale, the Updraft on Gorseval, and now Ley Line Gliding in wing 3. I personally wish they’d validate even more masteries by using them in raids either optionally or otherwise.

I agree with the use of masteries like gliding and mushrooms. I would not agree with requiring multiple end tier masteries or all of them.

It would drastically gate accessibility and ease of entry into the raiding scene if you required anything beyond mushrooms and maxed gliding.

I don’t want people who I invite to come raid with me in this game to be told " You’re gonna grind braindead dynamic events and waste days on ridiculous gold adventure medals or camping NPC’s for specific dynamic event steps to get enough mastery and xp to be raid ready".

WoW doesn’t do this. You can virtually gear up for entry to raids in WoW or FFXIV or Wildstar in a week or two of 2-3 hour play sessions.

Guild Wars 2 should be no different.

Raids should be easy to access and difficult to complete by virtue of their combat mechanics, not silly unnecessary gating.

To anyone who played GW1, you know how stupid Lightbringer ranks were for DoA. EoTN was equally cancerous.

This is an inaccurate assumption. Leyline mastery requires around 31 mastery points, which is not difficult to get. Get silver on most of the adventures, channel the mastery insights, do some achievements, and voila, you get 31 mastery points! For experience, pop a booster and do Dragon’s Stand once or more a day. All of this will let you finish leyline gliding in around a week, with 2-3 hours per day.

And you know what? It’s account-wide. All of your characters will get it, which means you only do it once. I don’t know about you, but I far prefer this to grinding for gear, which IIRC is the norm in other MMO raids.

Masteries have been a part of ‘combat mechanics’ for a while now. You have mushrooms and gliding in the raid, not to mention the specific raiding masteries as well. What constitutes as ‘silly, unneccesary gating’ would be locking it behind gear stats, which doesn’t strictly happen. And I’m saying this as someone who’s not even on rank 166 for masteries.

This is a non-issue, and the biggest uproar seems to be from the ones the raids are targeting the least.

Why are you people so bad at actually READING WHAT’S THERE and not WHAT YOU WANT TO SEE?

I said exactly there that ley line gliding and mushroom masteries are fine. Requiring Nuhoc and Exalted maxed on top would be over the top as an entry requirement.

My reading skills are perfectly fine, thank you. Please stop screeching in caps, it won’t help you get anything across.

You claimed that ‘gating’ raids behind masteries is a bad thing compared to simply grinding the gear required, I made my counterargument of how easy it is to get Leyline Gliding, the only end-tier mastery required in raids. Your point about other masteries being required is redundant, because it hasn’t been done – you’re merely arguing in favor of a slippery slope fallacy.

Perhaps stop reading what you want to see, before accusing others of the same?

Zenith.7301:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Get the mastery or don’t do the raid boss that requires it; there are other raid wings and bosses in the third wing which don’t require the mastery for you to play if you don’t want to get the mastery. It’s really that simple.

If you’re opposed to the concept of masteries being required for raids, my opinion is that I disagree with you because raids are end-game PvE content and masteries are like leveling up skills for use in PvE. It makes perfect sense to me to incorporate masteries into raids, like the Speed/Adrenal Mushrooms in Spirit Vale, the Updraft on Gorseval, and now Ley Line Gliding in wing 3. I personally wish they’d validate even more masteries by using them in raids either optionally or otherwise.

I agree with the use of masteries like gliding and mushrooms. I would not agree with requiring multiple end tier masteries or all of them.

It would drastically gate accessibility and ease of entry into the raiding scene if you required anything beyond mushrooms and maxed gliding.

I don’t want people who I invite to come raid with me in this game to be told " You’re gonna grind braindead dynamic events and waste days on ridiculous gold adventure medals or camping NPC’s for specific dynamic event steps to get enough mastery and xp to be raid ready".

WoW doesn’t do this. You can virtually gear up for entry to raids in WoW or FFXIV or Wildstar in a week or two of 2-3 hour play sessions.

Guild Wars 2 should be no different.

Raids should be easy to access and difficult to complete by virtue of their combat mechanics, not silly unnecessary gating.

To anyone who played GW1, you know how stupid Lightbringer ranks were for DoA. EoTN was equally cancerous.

This is an inaccurate assumption. Leyline mastery requires around 31 mastery points, which is not difficult to get. Get silver on most of the adventures, channel the mastery insights, do some achievements, and voila, you get 31 mastery points! For experience, pop a booster and do Dragon’s Stand once or more a day. All of this will let you finish leyline gliding in around a week, with 2-3 hours per day.

And you know what? It’s account-wide. All of your characters will get it, which means you only do it once. I don’t know about you, but I far prefer this to grinding for gear, which IIRC is the norm in other MMO raids.

Masteries have been a part of ‘combat mechanics’ for a while now. You have mushrooms and gliding in the raid, not to mention the specific raiding masteries as well. What constitutes as ‘silly, unneccesary gating’ would be locking it behind gear stats, which doesn’t strictly happen. And I’m saying this as someone who’s not even on rank 166 for masteries.

This is a non-issue, and the biggest uproar seems to be from the ones the raids are targeting the least.

Ohoni.6057:

For me the way you describe easy mode raids requires zero intensity/effort, I could do it while watching tv and being on the phone. So no amount of time you add could justify you getting raid rewards through easy mode.

I really don’t care how easy it might be for you. If you want to run easy mode, go right ahead. The point is to make it easy enough for lower skilled, lower geared pugs to get through it.

Now on topic, if you remove the enrage timer we will get players excluding other players just like we did back in the dungeon/fractal meta. The engrage timers are pretty lenient anyways, seeing how people low man it.

We already have people excluding others, what do you believe would change there? If anything, it would greatly reduce the number of players excluding others, since the consequences of coming up short would not be so severe.

Oh, the irony of claiming others should care about making raids accessible to everyone and their pet goldfish, and then going all ‘I don’t care what you think’, or excluding the opinions of other players who have just as much of a right to voice their opinion since it doesn’t fit yours.

Anyway, I digress. I’d just like to point out that this was about raid accessibility, not raid rewards, and it seems like discussion of that is just shifting towards the latter.

I’d say the mods should close this thread down as well. What’s the point when everyone commenting is just repeating themselves because one special snowflake just wants the last word?

It’s not even honest discussion anymore, and therefore should not be treated as such.

That’s not my point, but if you’d like to fight for me then go right ahead. I’ll continue to fight for the GW2 playerbase.

I’d just like to nip this in the bud right here.

You are not ‘fighting’ for the GW2 playerbase. I have observed your arguments for a long time now, and you keep claiming this. But how many people really agree with you? Even the people backing you up don’t have the exact same stance you do.

It’s incredibly dishonest to claim you’re fighting for a playerbase that has so many different opinions liable to change at any given time. You’re not even fighting for a majority, most likely – you’re fighting for a minority as much as you claim the raiders are.

Please don’t put words in other people’s mouths and claim that they’d be happy with the ability to acquire legendary armor in easy-mode raids, or even the implementation of easy-mode raids themselves.

I think this ‘discussion’ (it’s not so much a discussion as it is a case study of how stubborn people are even when they know they’re not going to get anything out of it, just for the sake of having the last word) would actually be better if you admitted you’re in it for personal reasons.

I for one, can begrudgingly respect someone who admits their motives, instead of hiding behind some seemingly-noble cause. We’re all selfish. It’s human nature.

That is all I have to say. Oh, and moderators, if you are reading this, my suggestion would be to close it.

The previous thread did not go anywhere. And whoever opened it again was basically just itching for an argument, given how similar the arguments have been. Unproductive and inflammatory. It serves no one to keep this open under the guise of ‘discussion’.

Yeah, I agree, it should take effort, just not necessarily in a hard mode raid. “Dedication” can mean things other than fighting punishing bosses.

It can, and that’s why there’s other game modes, other skins you can obtain in another way. This does not apply to raids — which was meant to be challenging.

Let’s not get into how Anet completely ruined the gold economy, suffice it to say that buying things with gold is no solution.

Well, it’s a lot less ham-handed then what you’re suggesting, which is ‘Anet give me my shinies I don’t care how but I want it NOW’.

Agreed on both points. I think both should be rewarding for those who play them, including access to current PvE-exclusive items (like Legendary armor), but there shouldn’t be anything that can ONLY be earned through them.

No, it should remain exclusive. But I’ve already stated why.

I do care about the lore, it’s just not the ONLY thing I care about, just like if I suggested that they remove the Legendary armor from raids, I’m sure you’d throw a fit, but I wouldn’t accuse you of not caring at all about the gameplay. I understand and respect that you can value two things at once. And as for “hijacking,” if you mean this thread, keep in mind that this thread only exists because the mods decided to melange a half dozen different threads on the topic, one of which I’d started myself.

I don’t care about legendary armor. I have the stats I need, so no, I wouldn’t throw a fit. I just don’t agree with the current sets of armor being available anywhere outside raids. The second set though, should be in another game mode. That is a different argument entirely.

By hijacking, I mean playing on the legitimate concerns people had for raids, when your real concern is having a shiny exclusive to raiding. And that means a lot less to me than people who play for the story.

And again, nobody is suggesting any nerfs to Raiding. Raiding will go on untouched. This would be an ALTERNATIVE OPTION, with which you need never touch.

Sure, easy mode without rewards then. I’ve said it before; I don’t mind an easy mode, but it cannot provide a way to raid-exclusive loot at all.

You have objected to this, so clearly your concerns are less benevolent than you try to suggest.

And these are both good things, but you should never mix the two. There should be exclusive rewards, but you should be able to achieve these within an hour or so, such that it gets you to TRY new things, but then RESPECTS your choice if you decide it’s not for you, and let’s you move on, prize in hand. And there should be rewards that reward long term goals, long term progress, but these should allow multiple paths to the same item, so that you can spend dozens of hours raiding, OR dozens of hours PvPing, OR dozens of hours in open world content, whatever sort of things appeal to YOU as a player. You should never have to spend dozens of hours in content that you know you don’t enjoy.

No, I grinded for my first legendary for quite some time. Ascended armor as well. It didn’t take me ‘an hour or so’ to get them. And that’s perfectly fine. Good loot takes effort to get. If legendaries were dropping left, right and center it would be worthless.

Again, nobody’s forcing you to do content you don’t enjoy. If you don’t like it, don’t do it. You just want easy raids so you can grind — it’s not even because you want to play raids, it’s just so you can get your shiny and leave.

Do you see how fickle this comes across to raiders?

Yeah, but like I keep telling you, while you may enjoy that process, while that might seem fun to you, I want no part of it. It’s not that I can’t, it’s that it would not be an activity I would enjoy, and anyone who plays a game to NOT enjoy himself is a bit unbalanced.

Again. Don’t play it. Nobody’s stopping you.

If you claim to enjoy raids, then it can only be because either the grinding process of them is, if not the most fun thing ever, at the very least more fun for you than it is for me, Or because the final victories are way more fun for you than they ever would be for me. That’s fine, I want you to play how it makes you happy, but I want you to respect that your happiness is not my happiness, and I want you to want my happiness as much as I want yours.

If that were true, then why make statements like ’I’d choose nothing if it came down to hard raids or nothing’? You don’t care about your fellow players. Just the loot.

A piece of advice: If legendary armor matters so much to you, wait until they announce a new set following this one. I highly doubt it will be in raids, if only because of the uproar.

Right now, you can’t even get a precursor for it. What’s the rush for?

Ohoni.6057:

That’s a horrible analogy. No, what you’re asking for is very different. You do realize that the legendary armor precursor is a collection quest, and not something you ‘buy’?

I hadn’t realized that, but now that you mentioned it, I looked it up. They really didn’t advertise that well, did they? Anyway, it’s not an issue. Some of those ingredients could be earned through the easy mode, either through lowered drop rates or the easy mode boss would drop “fragments” of pieces that would need to be combined to equal the normal piece. This part would indeed take a little more time to implement than just the content itself, but it’s still doable. It’s possible they could leave the core collections alone, earned exactly the same as in hard mode, but just have some hard time-locked elements involved in the easy mode path. Perhaps one item that you would need to buy off the mistlock vendor using easy-mode currency that would require you to do it X amount of times first, similar to the “play three matches a day for 15 days” portion of the Ascension meta.

…wow.

You’ve been complaining about raids all this time and you didn’t even bother to learn about legendary armor? It was pretty obvious from day 1 it was a collection. You know, when people try to argue something, they usually come in educated on the issue.

And no. Legendary armor is currently a thing only raiders who put in the effort should be able to obtain. I don’t mind it being available outside raids, but it should always, always be available only by being dedicated. Not by putting in kitten effort and then pretending it means something.

No, I’m not. Still a lowly peon plumber, I’d just like what I earn to be worth an equivalent amount to what you earn.

You already do. It’s called ‘gold’. Go buy a shiny on the trading post. There are some things you should not be able to buy, or it cheapens the effort. Legendary armor is one.

Oh, are you talking about the legendary armor now? No, anyone should be able to wear that for playing the game, raiders are nothing special that they deserve any special recognition, they just enjoy raiding where other players enjoy other things. Stop putting on airs.

By that logic, PvP deserves nothing special, give me muh Ascension now!!!

By that logic, WvW is nothing special, let’s nerf it down to the ground even more, shall we?

It’s special to those that play it. That’s the entire point. Your entire proposal for easy raids is just to get special shinies you don’t have the ability to obtain to begin with. I’d have a lot more sympathy for people who just want the lore, but you clearly don’t care about that. And that’s the worst part; you’re hijacking someone else’s concerns and making it into something that suits your agenda.

So no, YOU stop putting on airs. We raiders are honest about not wanting our content nerfed for no good reason, or for people to claim something that shouldn’t be theirs unless the same amount of effort in the same content is put in. You’re not.

You didn’t provide that “why” though. You just said “these things are exclusive to this content,” you made no attempt to explain why that is the case or should be considered a good thing. They are exclusive to those content, that is bad, that should be changed.

Do I have to explain what nearly everyone else has been saying?

Exclusive rewards = Encourage people to play a certain content.
Exclusivity = Rewards efforts made and gives a feeling of progress.

It’s a human thing. It’s why there’s different loot in different places of the game. Even champ bags give different named exotics. Taking that away makes the entire point of an MMO redundant.

I’m willing to work for it, and obviously no one’s forcing me to do raids, I would just like to do it without having to do hard mode raids, because I do not and will not enjoy hard mode raids. What is so difficult to understand about that?

That there’s no hard mode raids, only raids? If you’re expecting a cakewalk, go do dungeons or fractals.

If all my time spent complaining on the forums won’t change anything, then what good will your time spent complaining about me complaining do? If I have no capacity to effect any change here, then why not just say “I’d rather they not do what this guy says” and move on?

Because I’m bored, so I’m commenting. Did you seriously think I was concerned?

It’s not laziness, it’s disinterest. And yeah, I hate PvP too, but at least that’s just three matches a day, takes about an hour minutes, most of that sitting around, the loot isn’t horrible for the effort involved, and I’m constantly progressing. With Gorseval it was three hours to accomplish nothing, we couldn’t even beat the guy. I just have no interest in that sort of activity whatsoever, and I don’t know why you can’t understand how that could be.

I appreciate that Randomguy was willing to try and help me, and I’d hoped it would work and we’d just get through it and it would be fun, but it never was, it was just the same experience I’d had with my guild trying to take down Vale Guardian, running in, doing the mechanics as best we could, screwing something up, wiping, repeating for hours on end. You might love that sort of thing, but to me, that is what Hell would be like. And yeah, “I don’t have to do it,” but then I would never get a reward that I want to get, so yeah, I’ll have to do it or never get that reward, and it benefits NO ONE that I should have to make that choice. Not me, not you, not ANet, no one.

Players should never have to choose between deliberately engaging in unpleasant activities or passing up on an item that they want. When developers cannot provide a fun path towards obtaining a desirable goal, they have failed this game.

Because you were failing your duties, which is part of raid progression. Learn to fail less. Understand your rotations better. And when that happens, you will kill Gorseval.

Oh, I can understand disinterest and not wanting to do something. What I can’t understand is why you insist on having your hand held instead of just doing something else entirely.

Guess what, every raider here has had to endure the same frustration you have. You think we killed VG within 20-30 minutes of trying the first time? Hell, some of us still take more than an hour to do it. That’s all part of raiding. Everybody wipes. You just have to stick it through.

The funny part is, Randomguy’s group killed Gorseval eventually, with 7 newcomers. It is possible. You just don’t want to try more than you already have, and that time you have spent? It’s nothing.

If you want your legendary armor, like I have said: Learn to do raids.

Stop being entitled to what you don’t deserve. Anet do not need to do anything for you. You need to start doing things for yourself.

Ohoni.6057:

I’ve never once heard someone ask for an equal share by doing less. All I’ve heard is people asking for a lesser share for doing less.

Think of it this way, being a doctor is hard. You have to spend years extra in school learning to doctor, and it takes a lot of skill to achieve. Being a plumber is easier. It takes a lot less practice and a lot less native skill. Being a doctor, you earn more money, but being a plumber doesn’t mean you earn “plumber funbucks,” it means you earn dollars, exactly the same as the doctor, just less of them. If a plumber wants to buy a $200K sports car, he doesn’t get told “sorry, you’re just a plumber, you can only buy this car with Doctor-bucks, which only doctors can earn in any quantity.” No, if they save up, they can buy whatever they like. It might take them longer, but they still have that option.

That’s all that’s being asked here, an easier, but significantly slower path to the same goals.

I don’t go into WvW crying about not having a Mistforged weapon or PvP about not being able to get the Ascension without doing PvP.

But if either of those bothered you, then you should, and I would support you. If they don’t actually bother you then you’re just raising a straw man position.

So please, keep your high horse to yourself. At least we’re honest about our intentions, unlike some here.

I’m always completely honest about my intentions, it’s just those intentions really bother some people so they choose to portray me as having different ones instead.

That’s a horrible analogy. No, what you’re asking for is very different. You do realize that the legendary armor precursor is a collection quest, and not something you ‘buy’?

Instead of asking for the ability to buy things with ‘Doctor-bucks’, you’re asking for the right to be called a doctor and be recognized as such, despite being a plumber. You’re asking for the ability to be recognized for something only the most dedicated doctors will be able to get, by doing half the effort. It doesn’t matter if it takes twice as long, you should not be able to get it without learning how to be a doctor first.

That’s like saying a plumber should be allowed to do open-heart surgery, only slower because ‘they still have that option’. It. Does. Not. Make. Sense.

Ohoni.6057:

Ohoni.6057:

But if either of those bothered you, then you should, and I would support you. If they don’t actually bother you then you’re just raising a straw man position.

It’s not a strawman when it’s your actual position.

Yes, that’s what I said. If Sabetha is actually bothered that you need to WvW for Mistforged, or PvP for Ascension, then she should be making the case that they should be available elsewhere, and I would support her 120% in that effort. If she doesn’t actually care about those things, and just raises them as reason to NOT expand rewards in other areas of the game, then it’s just raising the point to shoot it down.

Stop putting words in my mouth. And stop straw-manning my argument as well. I raised them as pertinent examples of why we should not let the current set of legendary armor be obtainable from anything but normal raids, because every game mode needs its perks. WvW, PvP, open-world PvE, instanced PvE.

You want your loot? Work towards it. If you don’t want to, nobody’s forcing you to play raids.

All your time spent complaining in forums won’t change a thing either. You can choose to work on learning how to be a good doctor, or remain a plumber and pretend that you’re being discriminated against.

Looking at your previous posts, I don’t understand how you’re complaining so vehemently about raids while you’re slogging through PvP for the Ascension, and have had someone try to help you through Gorseval. Seriously, being lazy doesn’t help your case.

Astralporing.1957:

Sabetha.4910:

Nope.

Thankfully, you’re not in charge of Anet, so it really doesn’t matter what you want for the game.

Thankfully, neither are you.

Sabetha.4910:

Raids are here to stay.

At some time people were saying that about dungeons. These got axed anyway (and remember, that they were far more popular at that time than raids are now).

Sabetha.4910:

You can either adapt, or continue to moan. Nobody will actually care, because y’know, we’re playing the game. Adapting. Unlike you, it seems.

Just like Raiders adapted to the game with no raids in, instead of “moaning” and asking for Anet to implement raids?
Oh wait…

Sabetha.4910:

Or don’t. Nobody’s telling you how you should play the game, unless you insist on telling us how to do so.

Nobody’s telling you how to play the game (yet). The content this thread is about is not for you (clearly). And yet it’s you that keep insisting that we shouldn’t have it.

So please, go ahead, and apply your own advice to yourself first.

Dungeons were more popular? One has had three years, the other has had half a year. Please compare a proportionate sample size.

Also, I started playing a year before raids were even a concept. I’m relatively new to the concept of raiding — I’ve never done it until Spirit Vale came out. Your accusation of my ‘moaning for raids’ holds little water here.

Guess what happened? I struggled a lot with VG at first. I had my moments of frustration. Then I learned to adapt. I made new classes to pug raids. I looked for raid guilds, and I’m currently in a nice, casual-frame-of-mind one.

Now I’ve killed all three bosses. I’m nowhere near being a super-experienced raider, but neither am I complaining about there being hardcore content for players.

I’m not telling Anet to make faceroll content harder, or to make GW2 for the elite players in general. But you people keep complaining about raids and insisting that you deserve an equal share by doing less. I do not agree with this. Is this wrong? I have already said in earlier comments that an ‘easy mode’ is fine, as long as the rewards are minimal, or non-existent.

Raids exist to challenge the player. If the player refuses to be challenged, they do not deserve the reward for it. Simple as that.

I don’t go into WvW crying about not having a Mistforged weapon or PvP about not being able to get the Ascension without doing PvP.

So please, keep your high horse to yourself. At least we’re honest about our intentions, unlike some here.

Nope.

Thankfully, you’re not in charge of Anet, so it really doesn’t matter what you want for the game. Raids are here to stay. You can either adapt, or continue to moan. Nobody will actually care, because y’know, we’re playing the game. Adapting. Unlike you, it seems.

I can speak in general terms based on information available, it’s their job to work out the specifics, OR to be more open about their projects so that we have more information to work with. It’s unreasonable to say “you can’t talk about anything because we don’t know enough because they don’t tell us enough.”

Seriously, does someone have to link that dev quote every time you say this? You are not at liberty to make an educated guess at what Anet can or cannot do unless you are in charge of developing the game itself.

You want your legendary armor, work for it. There are people who have offered to take you on raids, and you’ve probably killed VG at least. You may not like it, but hey, if you’re playing PvP for the legendary backpack, you can do this.

Or don’t. Nobody’s telling you how you should play the game, unless you insist on telling us how to do so.

Heibi.4251:

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Don’t worry people, we will all be happy with difficulty settings someday.

If you need easier content, you have the rest of the game to enjoy. You can dungeon or fractals. I’d rather have developer resources go to that content. I don’t want raid resources tied up in easy modes.

I see the same echo chamber calling for easy mode raids. Please don’t assume everyone would be happy with it, especially given the responses here.

It’s ok to have content you don’t enjoy. Let raiders have content that they like. You have the rest of the game. Focus on the content you enjoy playing.

Don’t worry, with difficulty setting we can have ultra hard modes too!

It’s amazing that all these people who come in and berate and complain that we don’t need difficulty levels don’t seem to understand that it will not affect them in any way.

I’ll put this in their own words but reversing the argument – “If easier content is too easy for you go play the harder content.” And of course in their other words – “I don’t want game resources tied up creating ultra hard content for a small percentage of the game population.”

Look at what you’re saying and use logic. You’re acting like your toys will be taken away if an easier mode for less skilled players to learn and be successful(thus being able to play the harder content eventually) is created.

Easy mode is fine. IF:

1. Minimal rewards (it should be ‘training’ mode to get people used to the idea of raids, and in no way possible should it let people get raid-exclusive loot).

2. The developers think it is a useful thing to do. Which Rising Dusk has already said, is not something on the table simply because of the resources needed.

I will throw your statement back at you. Use logic. If it is not feasible, then there is no point in begging for it. If you want easy raids just to get legendary armor, like Ohoni has stated before, then your argument is moot and does not deserve a look-in.

P.S. Stats being locked behind raids is another thing entirely and needs to be revamped, but not at the cost of nerfing raids.

Just gonna leave this here:

“If you seek to aid everyone that suffers in the galaxy, you will only weaken yourself… and weaken them. It is the internal struggles, when fought and won on their own, that yield the strongest rewards. You stole that struggle from them, cheapened it. If you care for others, then dispense with pity and sacrifice and recognize the value in letting them fight their own battles. And when they triumph, they will be even stronger for the victory.”

I have no qualms with easy-mode raids, but they should have close-to-nil, or nil rewards. And given that an Anet dev has already said that you shouldn’t be judging how ‘easy’ it is to make such a thing happen unless you are working for Anet, I find it entirely pointless to discuss this.

Based on what I’ve seen of your replies, I’m not surprised nobody’s really in favor of your ideas.

Did SE p1 yesterday without a guardian, but I had an elementalist in the party.

So we get to the golem part where you need reflects, and then we got wiped. Was surprised the ele didn’t put up Swirling Winds, and was about to ask when he suddenly said something along the lines of ‘without stability or reflects this is hell’.

Then I asked about Swirling Winds and he said he forgot that was a thing. He used it on the second try and we killed the golems. Needed two more tries for Tazza though.

Then I pugged another party for p3 and the same elementalist was there. And this time, we wiped at the dredge armored carrier. Again, he didn’t use Swirling Winds the first time.

Seriously, how do you play a class without not knowing what it can do?! I don’t even play an elementalist and I know it can reflect, for kitten’s sake.

xadine.7069:

For the first beta a lot of players went with the “full zerk” gear since there was an obvious lack of damage. And so did I for the first day of beta. The next day is switch to power/toughness/ferocity. I also tried condi build but not with the gs on.

I personnaly always like the stat “power / toughness / ferocity” as the reaper can reach 100% critical hit without precision. and toughness is a good thing in VB. I don’t think this stat is available in exotic right now (not sure at all) but it is in ascend. And it was available in exotic for the beta, so I believe it will be in HoT anyway.

But for the friday, we have to keep in mind that the reaper has been buff. Yeah I know not nerf but buff, on necro, it’s sound like Dhuum is back in tyria to me. So we might see “new” gear stat.

Also condi reaper look pretty fun to play. I didn’t spend much time on it but Dhuumfire on RS is fun, and with reaper onslaught unbugged it may rain fire.

Hey guildie! At least, I think you’re the xadine I know xD

I think I wrote something about necros using cavalier gear in our guild forum, and based on calculations from the build editor, I’d say a Cavalier-geared necro has about 100 less base power than a Berserker one in Reaper Shroud, but obviously more survivability . It’s based around hitting hard in short bursts than sustained damage. I don’t think it’ll necessarily be meta, but it seems like an interesting build, and I’m planning to make an armor set soon enough.

bladex.9502:

I think I did my first Aetherpath with a group of pugs that were also all first timers.
Took about an hour.
Its probably more of a “I’m scared to try it myself” attitude because so many people say Aetherpath is too hard

Mine was about 3-4 hours. It can be difficult, depending on pug composition. Still, it was good fun.

rhapsody.3615:

Sabetha.4910:

So I just finished a CoF full run, and being someone who does the Aetherpath regularly, I decided to look around for a LFG.

Saw this one engineer selling slots, 39 gold each. Told said engi via whisper that was far too high for achievements (most I’ve seen was like 10-15 gold).

Engi got irate, blocked me.

Well then.

How do people sell the achievements anyway? Are they just acting as an overpriced guide, or are they actually able to solo the entire dungeon (Grounded included)? I always feel a little bad for people that resort to buying this path, because so few are willing to guide others through.

Pretty much as an overpriced guide. And given that the person said he was selling over a 100 AP (which was apparently oh-so-reasonable) I’m guessing he included the achievements you get from just doing the dungeon itself. Like killing Sparki and Slick. Who the storms needs to pay 39 gold for that?!

I’ve brought so many first-timers into that dungeon and I’ve yet to charge a single person. Just yesterday, I pugged the Aetherpath and after it was done, I still helped a guy grab all the Aetherblade chests without even knowing him.

It’s incredibly disappointing when people decide to fleece others when they need the party members to begin with.

P.S. I don’t know if anyone here has yet to do the Aetherpath but I’m more than happy to take you through it. All I ask is that you come on Teamspeak because it’s easier to explain through speaking than typing.

So I just finished a CoF full run, and being someone who does the Aetherpath regularly, I decided to look around for a LFG.

Saw this one engineer selling slots, 39 gold each. Told said engi via whisper that was far too high for achievements (most I’ve seen was like 10-15 gold).

Engi got irate, blocked me.

Well then.

nekretaal.6485:

Kirigato.7183:

I’m playing a necromaner now but I’m not sure whether should change to thief when it comes to helping my team in dungeon or should I stick with necromaner and I really nid to know what is a necro used for in dungeons

No, the DPS is too low.

Against a boss like legendary clock heart (or the molten duo in fractals) your average noob pug who doesn’t know mechanics can nonetheless out DPS the mechanics and defeat the boss anyways.

Necromancer can’t do this. And your easy boss turns into a nightmare encounter.

It’s better to learn the bosses on other classes.

This is inaccurate. You can kill the Aetherpath clockheart without it phasing with a necro in the party. I’ve done it before. And to be honest, true mastery of a dungeon or fractal comes from understanding the mechanics. Sure, it’s faster to just out-DPS the mechanics, but in reality you won’t manage this all the time. When a run goes bad, you need to learn how to adapt.

That’s what separates the really good players from the ordinary ones. Anyone can zerk down a boss; not everyone can manage screwups without being wiped.

For the last three days, every time it’s past midnight in my timezone (GMT +8) I’ve been getting massive lag issues. Trying to log into the game only gives me a long, extended loading screen, and when I do manage to enter the zone I logged out of, everything is laggy and rubber-banding.

Restarting my modem seems to help — momentarily. The first zone I enter will be fine, but waypoint out and it goes back to normal.

How can I fix this?