Guild Wars 2

“Point is, the skill is not raising my stats but giving me a fixed set of stats weaker than myself. For that, it’s useless.”

Hmm, Mesket I’m not really sure that this is true?

I went through and tested all the forms for any statistical bonuses they provide and they are actually quite substantial.

I am a level 80 ranger with the following base stats:

Power: 1821
Precision: 1016
Toughness: 2019
Vitality: 920

Following are the stat bonuses that each of the forms provided to the above when used.

BEAR FORM

Power +674

Precision +0

Toughness +782

Vitality +2768

WOLF FORM

Power +1132

Precision +938

Toughness +782

Vitality +936

RAVEN FORM

Power +674

Precision +938

Toughness +782

Vitality +1852

SNOW LEOPARD FORM

Power +674

Precision +2770

Toughness +0

Vitality +936

As you can see the stat bonuses vary based on the form used, but in no case would I consider these bonuses in any way insubstantial and my stats are certainly not worse whilst in any of the forms.

The biggest issues I have with the shapeshift forms are the duration (I think it could afford to be significantly longer or have a MUCH shorter cooldown) and the fact that you lose access to your healing/utility skills for the duration. I think this second point is largely what contributes to the forms feeling weaker/being less effective. Due to losing access to these skills (6 through 9), using a Norn shapeshift ability is rarely even an equal trade and often tends to come out at a net loss in terms of effectiveness.

With some small tweaks I think the shapeshift abilities could be a lot more useful without being game breaking.

EDIT PLEASE READ: So, amazingly, in half a dozen hours worth of very thorough testing across a bunch of different zones, it would appear that I have, in a moderately spectacular statistical anomaly, managed to carry out ALL my tests exclusively on undead/Risen mobs.

Creature type never even occurred to me as something to factor into my testing, but after having written my original post I happened to be wandering around and fought something else and I noticed the behaviour was different. Subsequent testing indicates that the behaviour noticed in the post below occurs pretty much EXCLUSIVELY on mobs that fall under the “undead” or “Risen” banner.

Speculation is that because the higher level zones and more specifically Orr, contain an almost absurdly high percentage of these kinds of creatures, this behaviour becomes a LOT more noticeable as a ranger reaches level 70ish and onwards to the point of appearing to be the norm when it is in fact, not.

Im going to leave my post up rather than deleting it because it might interest some people to know just how undead/risen mobs behave in conjunction with ranger pets, but again, this behaviour seems to be restricted almost entirely to one type of creature that is very prevalent in higher level areas.

P.S. – For the record Arenanet, I’m not at all convinced that this is good design or fundamentally enhances gameplay in any way other than heightened levels of puzzlement and frustration which are hardly desirable.

END OF EDIT

IMPORTANT INFORMATION IN FOLLOW UP REPLY BELOW PLEASE SCROLL DOWN TO READ!

Having seen a few posts crop up on the forum recently about pets and the way creature aggro is interacting with them recently, I thought I’d pitch in with some of my observations regarding the situation.

First up something HAS changed. I’m not the only one who’s noticed it and I’d really like to hear from an (official) authority on the matter as to whether this is an intended change in functionality or if something got messed up somewhere. Even the observation that “we haven’t noticed anything on our end” would assure us that someone has at least given some form of attention to it.

After having done some testing I can cite that it is now a very frequent occurrence for pets NOT to conform to the same aggro paradigm as players seem to, as well as several other specific things:

• This does not appear to be affected by level (unless it applies retroactively to all lower level zones once we achieve a certain level and if this is the case I’m going to hit someone, because really? -.-). This occurs in every zone I go into on my ranger from 1-80.

• This is in no way corresponding to any sort of damage comparison. In other words, the amount of damage being dealt by myself and/or my pet seems irrelevant to mobs aggroing my character over my pet. I’ve built my ranger very tanky and even “tanky” pets tend to output more damage than I do and in every case, on every single pet (I have tried all available pets in game) mobs still come right at me.

• This doesn’t even seem to be contingent on ATTACKING mobs, as I can consistently send my pet in to attack a creature, deliberately NOT engage the creature and have the mob switch to attack me after approximately 3-5 seconds. Every time. Worth noting that the amount of time it takes the creature to switch varies depending on pet type. Tankier pets tend to hold the creature for 1-2 seconds longer on average before it switches than DPS style pets do.

• Proximity and range do not play a role in this arbitrary aggro switching. I have hidden behind walls, sent my pet to the limit of its range to fight creatures, hell, even trooped up to ledges and out of LOS for the duration of the fight and the mobs STILL switch aggro to attack me in any and all of the above circumstances.

• Active and passive sources of healing/regen do not seem to have any effect on this behaviour at all. I have removed all equipment/skills and changed and traits that would provide any form of passive health regeneration and during fights have not used any active heal abilities (e.g. stood there and done nothing at all) and the behaviour is still consistent with creatures switching aggro to me.

It’s worth noting that mobs switching aggro to me isn’t something that NEVER happened before this new trend, but it was far, far rarer if I was careful about how I engaged (you can argue that this isn’t good design but thats a whole different discussion). This isn’t something I can provide non-anecdotal evidence or comparison for, because frankly I never had any reason to record the frequency with which it happened prior to these changes in behaviour and post changes am unable to obtain this data.

Also worth noting that I can in fact get through fight where a creature doesn’t switch targets from my pet to myself, but it relies on me killing a creature very, very quickly. Far quicker than I can consistently achieve the way my character is built. Whether this is because I’m simply knocking the monster off before it reaches a pre-programmed point of “ok, switch to ranger time” or for some other reason I have no idea.

But there is no doubt, it IS happening with far greater frequency. In fact it is the case with by far the majority of creatures that I fight and the ones where this behaviour doesn’t occur seem to be statistical outliers that I can find no explanation for, occasionally (anecdotal but perhaps 2-3 mobs in 20?) they just…..don’t attack me at all for no apparent reason.

Pet’s simply are no longer reliably conforming to any published or known behaviour on how aggro should traditionally work. All the things that have consistently affected aggro for any of my actual characters just do not seem to hold true for pets. At least, not for the last few updates or thereabouts.

I really don’t know whats going on here, but some transparency as to how pet aggro acutally should function (whether it includes this new behaviour or not) and whether or not these were intended changes and why, would only make sense given the drastic alterations to pet/mob aggro interaction that many people are noticing.

Whilst I have no doubt that awareness of the above issues on the part of Arenanet exists, given that our friendly neighbourhood game designer JonPeters has recently mentioned some of the camera issues present in game (or at least alluded to), I’m going to nudge my thread in the hopes it gets some official attention. Hopefully the information contained herein will be of some value when various improvements to the game camera are being considered.

“I’m talking about being able to jump at a standstill and then move around mid air.”

To be fair, I don’t think this is an issue exclusive to guildwars. I think it feels like an immersion damaging aspect definitely (as well as being a functional faux pas at times), but I’ve long since despaired of actually finding a game that implements a physics system that doesnt feel very artificial and…..wonky. It just doesn’t seem to be all that high on the priority list of most developers :P

Thanks everyone for responding!

Something I’d also like to suggest is that if anyone has developed any tips and tricks for making the camera controls more manageable and less unwieldy (note to any Arenanet employees, this is not in any way condoning the current state of the camera, only seeking ways to cope with it until time is found for the issues to be addressed!) then by all means please share, that we may all have a more enjoyable, less eyeball itching experience.

For example in my post I mentioned raising the DPI setting for your mouse. If you can do this somehow, its a pretty useful method of helping to combat the very slow inherent movement speed and rotation of the camera.

Any other pearls of wisdom I stumble across I will certainly endeavour to share.

Hiya Vorch! Thanks for your reply. I was unaware that the camera distance was actually improved. I do have to admit I find the idea it was even closer than it is currently more than a little scarey o.o. Good to see that it was changed initially I guess, maybe some more room for improvement?

As for number two being adjustable in the options menu, I’m totally aware of this My in game rotation speed was set to max within 5 minutes of logging in for the first time (and I honestly still found it woefully too slow) and subsequently I cranked the DPI on my mouse waaaaaaay up and still only barely find the movement speed tolerable. I honestly believe there could be some tweaks made here that really wouldnt affect game balance at all and would drastically improve quality of life for players.

A number of the remaining points were my attempts to put into words feelings that just….weren’t quite right with the way the camera moves and responds. I’m not sure how successful I’ve been, but having shared my thoughts with friends and so on, there’s at least some agreement on points 3, 6 and 7 in terms of something being consistently off in the way that camera movement feels. Specifics will no doubt vary from player to player.

The linked mod looks like sort of an interesting take!. As stated its a mod, which the EULA sort of explicitly prohibits Not to mention I’m not entirely certain it would be the solution I would opt for regardless. You’re right insofar as it uh, “circumvents” the problems mentioned by removing the ability to click and rotate? But that doesn’t really seem to suggest fixing the problems to me so much as capitulating to them and removing functionality :P

DandySlayer, I find it wreaks absolute havoc in WvW as well. Nothing like missing a stomp or a kill when the camera decides “oh, that guy is a better target, shoot him instead!”

I hear you Lotusedge. There are countless other issues with cameras, walls, the interaction of the odd camera movement with lower FPS levels and a whole host of other little issues which are all problematic as well. I havent managed any motion sickness yet, but at this point nothing surprises me. I simply compiled a list of the ones that I could define the best. Had to start somewhere!

6. THE PERCEPTION OF SLUGGISH CAMERA RESPONSIVENESS CREATES MENTAL AND PHYSICAL STRESS.

I know this one sounds absurd and I am not in any way suggesting that people will have stress induced breakdowns due to camera function, but with a lot of these issues that I have trouble “defining” or that I dont really understand/notice on a conscious level, I find that the required level of focus to help manage them is much more heightened and as a result I am….tenser.

Elevated levels of focus result in higher levels of tension, or at least I am noticing this for myself. The overall “awkward” feel of the camera control certainly requires me to focus a lot more in order to effectively manage it and the results are noticeable when I stop and observe them.

7. THE GUILDWARS 2 CAMERA CONTROLS INHIBIT THE USE OF PREDICTION AS A TOOL FOR MOVEMENT.

I find this one is very difficult to articulate. My experience and observations suggest to me that human beings will attempt to “predict” things when they figure out that they can reliably do so. In gaming as well as other areas prediction is often a much quicker and more intuitive method of accomplishing certain goals than reacting is. In a gaming environment, mouse movement and camera control in particular are heavily tied in with prediction as opposed to visual feedback. Players will often act based on predictions of what they need to do, rather than waiting for visual feedback to react to.

The control scheme in Guildwars 2, with its sluggish response times, limited movement speeds, disorienting, awkward feel and most importantly its profound inconsistencies, promotes a lack of confidence in ones ability to reliably predict required movement based responses and thus force greater reliance on visual feedback as the primary means of movement and control, resulting in a tendency for the entire process to be rendered less efficient and more reactive.

The above points are some of the issues that I have with the control scheme (specifically camera controls) in Guildwars 2. The overall clunky, unresponsive and disorienting “feel” of the system truly concern me and I welcome feedback on either the issues I have discussed, or indeed any additional points that others may feel deserve mention.

4. THE CAMERA “ZOOMS IN” AND THEN “ZOOMS OUT” UNACCOUNTABLY DURING RAPID ROTATION.

This one completely baffles and frustrates the hell out of me. In the majority of my previous gaming experience, the camera traditionally only zooms in during movement/rotation to acomodate for when its plane has connected with either an obsctruction it is passing (trees, rocks, buildings etc) or collides with the ground (at which point it tends to zoom in at foot level and tilt up).

Not only does the guildwars camera tend to completely ignore collision with a lot of environmental objects (hello screen suddenly swamped by tree branches and bushes), but during rapid rotation of the camera it will zoom in even when the camera is on a flat plane (i.e. does not pass by anything that could obstruct it nor does it connect with the ground) and then zoom out again as the rotation comes to its end.

I do not know why this occurs, nor what the reasoning behind it is, but again, given that the extent of my previous gaming experience involves cameras which close in on the player for reasons of obstruction, this feature of the Guildwars 2 camera schema is causing me to attempt to re-adjust my camera based on the somewhat subconscious assumption I have in fact collided my camera with something and need to move it either up (to get it away from the ground) or down (in case it has hit a cliff or somesuch behind and above me) when in fact this type of adjustment does NOT need to take place at all.

This is not an ocurrence (at least for me) that simply requires a re-adjustment or “getting used” to the new format. I find this tends to run against my instincts and requires I actively and repeatedly force behaviour that is not the norm, which in circumstances of high pressure and or focus can sometimes divert an (i think) unnecessary amount of attention towards reinforcing uninstinctual behaviour.

5. ROTATING THE CAMERA WHILST HOLDING LEFT CLICK CAUSES FREQUENT DETARGETTING OR SELECTION OF NEW TARGETS.

This one strikes me as more of a technical issue and I’m even inclined to suggest its a bug that isn’t functioning as intended. After some careful observation what I believe this one comes down to is the fact that target selection seems to be processed when a key (or in this case mouse button) is pressed DOWN, rather than when the key is RELEASED. If target selection using mouse clicks were processed on key release, then the target could not possibly be changed or deselected while i was holding the mouse button down to rotate my camera, but would in fact require that I click the button its entirety (click THEN release) whilst the cursor was over the target in question.

The latter is the case in most every game I have ever played and I cannot fathom a reason that would provide preference for the other method. Hence the suggestion that this is not functioning as intended and requires a bugfix.

After some rather extensive periods of both puzzled frustration and as thorough investigation as I can manage in a field that is typically rather difficult to define, I’ve decided to make a post regarding SOME of the issues with the Guildwars UI and camera control systems in terms of player input and perception.

Note that I say “some” mostly because I know there are more issues that I’m having with the control scheme than what will be included in this post, but its an area that I find fairly difficult to evaluate because so much relates to concepts that I have previously dealt with instinctively and in terms of how they “feel” rather than having to quantify objectively. So, bear with me as I fumble my way through some of these issues!

Also note that these are observations made based on my personal experience and whilst they may not apply to everyone, they are certainly common to a number of my Guildwars 2 aqquaintances.

I’ll start simple and work my way into the more difficult issues.

1. MAXIMUM CAMERA ZOOM DISTANCE IS NOT VERY…..DISTANT.

I seem to recall observing in some literature somewhere that this was an intentional design decision (although I cannot recall what the cited reason for it was). I can sort of buy this and have seen it in other games at least a few times, but I don’t like it at all and additionally there is one particular glaring issue with it that leaps right out at me and waves it arms about. NOT ALL CHARACTERS ARE THE SAME SIZE.

This is a matter rooted firmly in perception, since the actual environmental exposure for a smaller character is in fact no larger than that available to a bigger character, but the amount of space onscreen that some of the tall, bulky avatars take up relative to the smaller ones certainly makes it SEEM as if the view distance is significantly different in each case. It contributes to a requirement that players spend more time shifting the camera about to view their surroundings (see points 2 and 3) as well as a claustrophobic screen feel for those of my characters that I have opted to make chunky.

2. CAMERA ROTATION SPEED IS VERY, VERY SLOW.

I have again read on several occasions that this is a design choice rather than a technical limitation which I admit I find fundamentally difficult to swallow. Is the aim here to achieve some sort of pseudo-realism in terms of response to external stimuli or something? Is the camera trying to simulate a person having to react and then respond to events happening around them in a realistic frame of time and movement? I’m not really sure, but personally I find that this latency of rotational movement leads me to overcompensate in a lot of circumstances TRYING to rotate my camera at a speed which the game deliberately prevents.

It feels very counterintuitive as well as unresponsive and to be honest I have resorted to seriously ramping up the hardware DPI setting on my mouse just to attempt to offset this, which I dont feel should be at all necessary and has only provided limited success to boot. I would be interested in hearing the reasoning behind this particular limitation.

3. ACCELERATION/DECCELERATION DURING CAMERA ROTATION.

This issue ties in to some degree with the issue above. The rate at which acceleration/decceleration of movement occurs when rotating the camera feels very strange to me. It almost feels as if there is a cap to how fast the rotation will accelerate or deccelerate unless I really jerk the mouse hard, at which point it will spin crazily in a not very useful manner. Acceleration is not a feature of mouse based movement that I generally view favourably in most circumstances and this is no exception.

To my mind acceleration does nothing but provide an additional factor for the human brain to compensate for during mouse movement. This problem is compounded by the fact that the rate of acceleration/decceleration feels so exaggerated or like it has a substantial “wind up/down” in Guildwars 2.

This draws out the relatively simple procedure of turning my character by requiring that I not only pay attention to all the things already happening on my screen, but also having to instinctively try and grasp how much “lead” time I require during my camera rotation to accomodate for the front and back end acceleration/decceleration. Again, a fact made worse by the seemingly exaggerated nature of the “speed up” and “slow down” of the camera during rapid movement.