Guild Wars 2

Strategy based PvP

Of course, team arena PvP is already based on strategy, but I want a game mode that takes this to another level. Moba gameplay does this in a way, by having many more strategic choices available after the game has started.

It has some elements of WvW in it, but doesn’t last a week/allow for obscene stat advantages.

The main problem with Hugh’s 4 guidelines would lie in the 15 minute duration of the match.

The pace of the game could be a bit too high at 15 minutes, to really make use of strategical plans. Since I imagine it would require players to communicate through chat and invest time in building up tactical advantages. I suggest doubling this to 30 minutes.

Players could join late, but teamswapping like in solo-que is a no-go.

Ingredients with bulletpoints

• Partially moba, lots of npcs, items and structures, but no leveling/skill development.
• Match is won by killing the enemy lord/destroying their castle.
• A new currency (platinum?) only to be used within the match. Players can decide to add platinum to the upgrade fund or spend it themself.
• Large map.
• Pre-fight strategy discussion time. 1 or 2 minutes could be enough.
• A slow start, working towards the peak of the action… the endgame.
• A large emphasis on secondary objectives.
• Tactical dilemmas come up frequently.
• Good use of the environment has to be important.
• Roles for scouts/skirmishers. Knowing what the enemy is up to is vital.
• NPC´s are important in preparing for the endgame.
• As we near the end of the match, respawn timers are high. (Perhaps each death increases the timer, perhaps it increases regularly by x seconds per minute)

More bulletpoints.

NPCs

• Monsters can be slain for buffs/environmental weapons/platinum/other goals.
• Guards will patrol the area of your keep, much like in WvW.
• A force of guards is send out every now and then to attack the enemy castle. (And kill any enemy guards on the way)

Upgrades

Paid for with platinum gained from completing bounties/killing enemies/running errands. These would be the GW2 version of leveling up in a moba style game.

• Guard slaying (5 ranks): +10 to +50% damage vs NPC’s/ -10 to -50% damage taken from NPC’s.
• Reinforcements: 1 extra NPC with every patrol spawned.
• Guard strength: guards are now level 81/82.
• Gate upgrades: stronger gates.
• Etc.

Buffs

These would be the equivalent of items in a moba. They are purchased with platinum from vendors that spawn on the map

Team wide buff ideas:

• Essence of celerity: +20% endurance regen + 20% movement speed.
• Grail of might: +200 vitality + 1 stack of might (15 seconds) every 5 seconds.
• Armor of salvation: +200 toughness + minor health regeneration.

Individual buff ideas:

• Vampiric attacks
• Speed buff
• Instant skill recharge of all your skills at a certain vendor/boss.
• Etc.

Environmental weapons

These can be found in remote areas of the map. Perhaps bought or dropped by a monster. They are one-use items. Typically best saved for end-game clashes.

• Bell. 4 second AoE daze.
• Spicy kittentail. 10 second AoE burning spot. (Like the WvW mortar fire)
• Dust. 10 seconds AoE stealth.
• Etc.

Environmental advantages

• A plateau, so high that it kills you when you’re pushed off unless you have a falling trait.
• Underground sneak paths with potential cave-ins.
• Terrain that can be transformed through upgrades. Say, made into a minefield.
• Chokepoints
• NPC wardens that require a fee for passing through their lair allowing for a shortcut.

Well… I guess you get the idea.

TL/DR version:

Some ingredients from moba style gameplay, but without leveling. And less of a focus on ‘laning’. Some ingredients from WvW.

Most important features: building towards a critical end-game. Lots of tactical decisions are made on the way there. The match changes drastically from start to finish. The impact of strategy makes matches surprising and different from other matches.

I have posted something similar to this a while back.

I had a bit of a different version in mind, but I would certainly love to see challenge missions make a return.

Maybe one other server needs to start collecting?

I mean, telling them to please not come and then sending them over to all other available servers isn’t really helping. Players come from empty servers, they don’t want to go to empty servers.

It would be much better if, for example, Aurora Glade became the place to go for everyone since Gandara has ‘filled up’.

The question is: Which other server should it be?

In UW’s defense:

We did beat the knights and Scarlet 3 nights in a row in the final week. (When Kikkah send a call out to make the 6 minutes achievement.) We didn’t manage the 6 minutes achievement though.

Underworld Transfers

I don’t know much about the numbers, but this is what I’m seeing so far on Underworld (This is just what I get from hearsay and reading the forums).

Departures

To Gandara (as far as I know)

[RUM]
[SPGR]
[Lusa]
[Mayh] (Partially)
[TS] (Thanks DragonXRose)
[Blod]
[GOD]

To Aurora Glade (I think?):

[ZeGa]

To Blacktide:

[UTA]

Other:

[WAR] Disbanded, may scatter?

Arrivals

None

State of the server:

Quiet, but not completely empty.

See here for further information.

Oops, I forgot, or well… somehow I assumed that they would be here for a while still.

UW, my perspective.

I do hope that anet stops churning out these super large scale events. Many of them are not impossible (we managed Tequatl on UW a few times within the first two weeks of release, the marionette quite often as well, just like the current living story), but they are becoming increasingly difficult to do reliably. We no longer seem to have the active population required to do Tequatl, I have never seen any serious attempt at the wurm and the three knights event died out a few days ago, making it hard to do for players that weren’t there on the first week. (It is often the shout: ’We’ll never make it on uw, let’s all go to the red & blue knights’, that leads to a failure. Sad, really.)

The temple events, karka queen and such, we can usually find enough people to do those. (Thanks to guilds and individuals whispering the guilds to get together.) But the content that requires full map presence is very demoralizing. Yet players keep feeling the need to complete it, so they pour in some more hours to collect players. All this only to feel tired and defeated after failing. (I guess the fact that they’re still on the underworld server says something about their spirit to keep trying)

But in the middle of all this, we’re seeing successes as well. Like a near flawless balthazar temple event the other day. (Hosted by [rum], who will unfortunately be leaving uw) And some awesome collaborations between guilds to get their guild missions done. The rise of a larger guild that uses the guild message to plan events. (Sort of functioning like a gw1 alliance system, so we can more easily join forces.)

We have our moments of fun in WvW, though it is not as intense as it used to be. We’re rarely defending anything, our opponents are rarely defending anything. Which makes sense. Since neither of us have enough people to keep watch over things, nothing is worth upgrading, so nothing is worth protecting… This doesn’t mean that we never clash forces though! Just that the fights are more about the fighting, than about keeping or taking objectives.

I think it is time for server merging. If WvW is designed around full map capacity, and events keep coming out on a massive scale… we simply need more players.

If guild upgrades weren’t lost on server transfer, I think our guild might move. (Though I don’t know if we have the money to transfer players that weren’t online during the free transfer period.) I guess I am positive that anet will come up with a solution in the upcoming year. (Or it would be a better idea to move now and start rebuilding the guild upgrades.)

Guild first, server second.

General PvE:

1. A human perspective on RNG and grind. From the minimal chances of you getting that item to drop, to the 10k silk requirement. They seem based around the economy more than the experience of an individual. What could be a better system?

2. New PvE gametypes. So far we have: personal story, dungeons, fractals, guild missions, open world bosses, jumping puzzles and some interesting things in the living story (a race, an arena, a platformgame and others). New ideas could be challenge missions, small scale instances (10-15 minutes for 1-3 players), large scale instances (8+), crafting puzzles and probably plenty more.

WvW:

1. WxP. Currently it is just: more WxP is better. Which results in a rather big difference in WvW effectiveness between new or casual players and veterans that is not based on skill, but hours played. A trait-like system could be a better fit. In addition to this there are issues like WxP/karma trains which result in players fighting doors instead of players, not caring about keeping objectives.

2. New WvW gametypes. We have the jumping puzzles, the arena and the open maps. Ideas that come to mind for new gametypes are: small asymmetric instances that are linked to the WvW map, tower defense (with npc-fired siege perhaps like we see in the ascalon fractal), epic events that can only start when a map is on full capacity and more.

PvP:

1. Clarity of combat. At the moment it is very hard to understand what is going on in a fight. This is partially due to particle effects, but also because we are not given a lot of information as a player. What can be done to make it more clear what is going on in combat, so that we can adapt strategically?

Balance:

1. Underused skills. Every day a new one comes up for discussion for let’s say 2 or 3 weeks. Provided that anet has the data to know which skills are not being used of course.

2. Underused traits. See above.

3. Creature balance. The creatures we face in PvE and WvW can often be defeated in very much the same way. How can creatures be designed differently to increase the diversity of strategies required to beat them?

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Please post if you think I have missed a significant area from this summary.

Chris

Thanks for the list!

One thing that I feel is missing from that list:

The AR requirement makes it hard to keep playing with guildmembers or friends that don’t have enough AR. A few different suggestions have been made to make it possible for players to push the AR of their friends up a bit. To allow them to join fractals on levels that are more fun for the team.

Tub.4560:

Just to clarify, I wasn’t suggesting to replace all AoE circles with the orange ones, just the ones in my examples. I think the AoE fields are important enough in these situations that they should be visible, no matter what.

Fair enough. For the harpies I can see the point. (Though perhaps the orb should be enough of a tell? I can see why getting hit when the circle isn’t there is confusing though)

As for the swamp, I don’t remember having problems there. Does it have something to do with the way our graphics are set up?

Tub.4560:

By the way, there are two places where the AoE rings can turn invisible:

• In Uncategorized Fractal, the Harpies’ knockback attacks. If they target the center of a small platform, the whole rim of the AoE circle is in the air, thus nothing is drawn.
• In Swampland Fractal, against Bloomhunger. Whenever an AoE circle is underwater, it’s invisible, and there’s a lot of water.
• (Tequatl has similar issues with his poison fields in the water, but that’s not a fractal)

Is it possible to replace those with the new full-orange AoE circles that were used in the marionette, wurm and hologram fights?

While I can appreciate the visibility of such AoE circles in massive combat scenarios. I prefer the more subtle approach we see in the rest of the game.

The flashy AoE fields just make things look more like a disco. Which does break my immersion. As well as blocking out combat information that I am less likely to see. Like combo fields etc.

DevonCarver.5370:

While I appreciate the discussion around the dolyak issue, it wasn’t my intention to refocus the discussion there so much as provide an example of a point.

To pivot from that discussion, however, would WvW be better or worse off if we removed dolyaks entirely and went with the setup we use in EotM or something similar?

I think there are good reasons to keep dolyaks, but I wonder if we might be able to solve many of the problems we’ve discussed here by eliminating that sense of the supply chain of battle? It might just have the effect of making supply far less limiting.

Would it instead work to go with a combination of the two and have a guaranteed minimum amount of supply from holding a camp and have dolyaks carrying the extra? I’m curious what you all think.

As for the discussion around how to more closely involve guilds it’s definitely something we think about and I think there are intriguing ideas in here.

I really like the dolyaks. Perhaps a camp upgrade to ‘fortify’ dolyaks could be neat though. So they can’t easily be killed by a single foe anymore. (I’m talking like +400% health and protection/regeneration buffs.)

That way players can more reliably protect dolyaks if they need to. At the moment there is not much you can do to prevent a decent thief from taking out that dolyak. Even if the thief can’t manage to kill you.

I believe that alternate paths are probably necessary in content that poses a challenge to the way we build our characters. Otherwise group requirements could become really strict. Which doesn’t work out in fractals at all, since we are posed challenges through a random selection. (It would lead to kicking people in order to get a specific profession)

We need to have alternatives to make it through, like:

• Access to environmental weapons that can offer us the skills we need.
• Support NPC’s we can choose that can fill the gap in our team.
• The option to pick our path. (Ignoring what we can’t do, perhaps picking a more lenghty but less tactical fight instead.)

Wethospu.6437:

The reason why I hate pure puzzle encounters is that we could have combat with puzzle encounters. For example we could have a boss in wisp area and you would have to use wisps to beat him.

But back to your reply. So far every puzzle is so shallow/easy that there is barely any need to think about builds. Yes, I use different skill set when running wisps than normally but loading condition removal, mobility and stun breaks isn’t very challenging. With combat elements you would have to make a decision between offensive and defensive skills.

If you get thrilled with using Mantra of Resolve instead of Null Field then I guess we just have to accept that we appreciate different things.

I agree, having both is better. And with the way fractal can get more difficult at higher levels, it would be a great place to increase the pressure on puzzles by adding combat as the levels go up. (Leaving less space in your builds, making decisions matter more) Because by then we would already have some knowledge of the basics of the puzzle.

While I don’t particularly like using Mantra of Resolve over Null Field, I do like that I can feel even a little bit clever about making the right decision. Of course, the more clever I need to be about it, the more satisfying overcoming a challenge can be.

Wethospu.6437:

The Lost Witch.7601:

Wethospu.6437:

The gameplay is designed around combat. Every skill and stat (excluding magic find) is combat oriented. Also combat encounters scale.

Now let’s take a look at the wisp running. Most of your stats, gear or skills won’t matter at all. Also it doesn’t scale.

Which one has more room for innovation and tactics?

Well, the thing is:

We have many skills, traits and stats that don’t really come into play that much in general PvE. This is because fights are different from PvP fights. We simply don’t have to bother with many aspects of the combat system. (In fact, they’re often only counterproductive, making fights last longer)

To make other parts of the combat system shine, we need some ‘gimmicky’ situations that allow for these skills and traits to come into play. The swamp fractal for example, allows for excellent use of stuff like:

• Teleports
• Condition removal
• Stunbreakers
• Stealth

These are also used elsewhere in the game, but they are not as essential in generic combat situations as they are in the swamp fractal.

Of course the challenges shouldn’t all be complete gimmicks, but if we are to make full use of the skills and traits available to us, pure combat just won’t do.

You don’t really need any of those with the wisp running. Sure, they are useful but not essential.

Are you seriously saying that there is no way to add a combat encounter which would need condition removal, mobility/teleports, stunbreakers and stealth?

They are useful, not essential. Yes. But useful is important. It gives us a reason to actually use some skills that are otherwise not seeing any action. To think about our build. They make the fractal significantly easier. If it is too easy to do it without adjusting, then I believe the encounter should be made a bit more difficult on higher levels.

And yes, there are ways to make a combat encounter that needs condition removal, mobility, stunbreakers and stealth. And they should work on that more. It is just much more easy to implement in a puzzle-combat mixture, because you don’t have to worry too much about the extreme power of stacking + berserker gear.

It is really difficult to come up with a pure combat encounter that is doable for average players, but doesn’t fall to the ‘zerker combination’ (I’m not criticising this, just acknowledging it’s power) while at the same time still requiring advanced tactics.

In addition to that though: There are many different skills that remove conditions. For the mesmer (that I play most in fractals) the null field is typically the most effective. This is not the case in the swamp puzzle, where mantra of resolve is the clear winner. Different scenarios require different approaches. The more different the scenarios are, the more likely it is that we’ll have a use for some skill we would otherwise leave untouched. (Provided that we can use our skills to our advantage though! Unlike the dolphin puzzle for example)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Well here we go with an option perhaps for a limited-combat one? Taking this off slightly from one of the missions in Nightfall (Tihark Orchard).

Courtly Behavior

hide spoiler

Courtly Behavior

The travelers are present now in a gathering which turns out to be during a lull between Guild Wars and tensions in the attendees are rising steadily. Different opposing guilds have representatives here, along with the nobility from the three human nations and the dwarves of Deldrimor. Talking around reveals varying motives for being here:

- The dwarves are here to reiterate they don’t want to be in the middle or have their lands used as staging grounds. By now the representatives are split: some getting sour on this and wanting to close the borders entirely and some who are more compassionate and want to keep the neutrality to “we’ll help your wounded if you don’t come seeking trouble”.

- The Orrian nobles wish Kryta and Ascalon would cut it out, and their guild is present largely to keep the peace. The Orrian guild, on the other hand, has members who don’t take that seriously or are spoiling for a reason to get some combat practice in. The nobility has started to despair at their being peace between the other two kingdoms, and is just trying to make it through the last night of the gathering.

- The nobles from Ascalon are somewhat reasonable, but there’s deep grievances in one of their number since his brother was killed during the last battle in the previous round of Guild Wars. He’s itching to murder one of the Krytan guild members as retribution, and has employed some of the Ascalon guild members to make sure either through poison or bloody assassination it happens. The leader of the Ascalon guild could care less about the politics, they want to move north to fight charr instead of humans. The members largely don’t care who the enemy is, so long as they can earn combat pay instead of peacetime pay.

- Kryta is disjointed. One of the nobles wants to set up a war between Orr and Ascalon so Kryta can join in on whichever one starts losing; they’re not picky but they’d like to push it towards Orr over the holier-than-thou attitude being displayed. The other nobles want peace so they don’t have to live on high alert and can try to fix problems locally. One of them is even lobbying for some help pushing out some of the centaurs and tengu so they can build Loamhurst. The guild members, on the other hand, don’t respect anyone from the Ascalon side and have been throwing subtle barbs for the last few days in unofficial ways.

The goal is to make it through the evening without a brawl breaking out. Each class or race has some unique options of conversation which can either help or hinder this; a charr character might antagonize the Ascalon representatives and make the other two uneasy, and the Deldrimor act uneasy around a Norn but are polite. If problems can be solved it can stabilize tensions, and the players can pretend to offer assurances to each side or actually secure assurances. Finally, the meeting is made with everyone talking about it and depending on how the players played it out it will end with uneasy tensions and no clear resolution (default), total war breaking out (through player manipulation), or peaceful accords (through player manipulation).

Rewards: For the Tension ending, four basic loot bags containing Relics (among other things) and a claim ticket for a special weapon from an NPC in the Mistlock Observatory. If they push them to war, four basic loot bags, and a Warmonger weapon chest (new skin), plus a recipe for Warmonger armor (new skin). If they push for peace, four basic loot bags, a Peacemaker weapon chest (new skin), plus a recipe for Peacemaker armor (new skin). (Note: the skins have Exotic rarity but are not gear; they are just skin items.)
Additionally, some other loot bags may be made available through certain paths; given as bribes to push the resolution one way or another, perhaps, or rewards for minor services.
The special weapons resemble older weapon skins available in Prophecies, but with more ornate twists on them. You can use the Mystic Forge plus some random items from the loot bags to customize them to resemble Krytan/Orrian/Ascalon weapons used by the guild members in the instance.

Extras: Achievements for getting different resolutions, for stopping the assassination, or for playing it as a sylvari or asura (races unknown or unheard of).

While I would like to play through this, I wouldn’t want to see it in fractals.

After a while it would just become something we would want to get over with, so we can get to the actual fighting. Whereas it would be great fun to try out the multiple ways in which this could fail. I would prefer this type of thing in either a personal story setting or through the living story.

Wethospu.6437:

Nike.2631:

Spoj The Second.7680:

Thats not the reason they do it though. Noone enjoys do the wisp puzzle. None of the pure invironmental puzzles are fun after doing them once. Puzzles arent replayable or repeatable. And even if you somehow make them randomly generated they will still eventually become boring because theres only so many iterations that can be generated.

How is that different from the jellyfish boss? How are any of the combat encounters in fractals not wildly repetitive the 10th time? or the 50th?

I’m still enjoying guild puzzles. I think they have (a lot) more life than you’re giving them credit for.

The gameplay is designed around combat. Every skill and stat (excluding magic find) is combat oriented. Also combat encounters scale.

Now let’s take a look at the wisp running. Most of your stats, gear or skills won’t matter at all. Also it doesn’t scale.

Which one has more room for innovation and tactics?

Well, the thing is:

We have many skills, traits and stats that don’t really come into play that much in general PvE. This is because fights are different from PvP fights. We simply don’t have to bother with many aspects of the combat system. (In fact, they’re often only counterproductive, making fights last longer)

To make other parts of the combat system shine, we need some ‘gimmicky’ situations that allow for these skills and traits to come into play. The swamp fractal for example, allows for excellent use of stuff like:

• Teleports
• Condition removal
• Stunbreakers
• Stealth

These are also used elsewhere in the game, but they are not as essential in generic combat situations as they are in the swamp fractal.

Of course the challenges shouldn’t all be complete gimmicks, but if we are to make full use of the skills and traits available to us, pure combat just won’t do.

One Note Chord.5031:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

I can bet this has been touched upon 100 times but just in case:

Make fractal achievements (like 100 fractals done) etc reward fractal skin boxes where you pick your skin. RNG is bad, especially with fractals. There should be sure rewards for those who aren’t blessed by RNG star.

Since we’re reiterating things a bit here, I want to repeat one worry that a few of us raised about this particular kind of implementation: this would allow people to run level 1 fractals over and over and get skins, which devalues them.

One way to get around this, riffing on some suggestions earlier, would be to have the achievement give you a token you can trade into a merchant for rewards, with different rewards requiring different personal reward levels. Then maybe weapon skins could require a few tokens (if we get them every 100 fractals) and level 50, for instance.

(This still doesn’t address the other problem of letting us do something with skins we don’t want. Maybe we could turn unwanted skins into a tokens as well, at some exchange rate or other. It has the other problem of adding yet more currencies to the game, though, which may be unwelcome.)

This would still let you run level 1 fractals to get skins, but at least you’d have to make it to 50 first.

Personally I think it would be a better idea to just introduce a vendor that pops up after beating a boss on level 50. (Within the fractal)

That way players that are good enough to do level 50 fractals don’t have to actually have reward level 50. (Which is fair enough if you do every level once, but a bit much if you spend most of your time helping friends and guildmembers level up.)

Besides that though:

If the end reward for completing a run of 4 fractals is good enough, players wouldn’t just do the first one. So we might not even need this structure.

I would like to warn against setting the bar too high though. I am already seeing a lot of very high material requirement in crafting & mystic forge recipes. These require either a lot of gold, or a lot of time to gather.

I ask that you keep a human perspective. Don’t look at the list of fractal players and divide the requirements so that the most active fractal players still have something to strive for. Because what may be in reach for them, is out of reach for ‘normal’ players. This is fine for some types of rewards of course, but if we’re looking at completely new skins or stats, I think not.

The main reason why I make this warning is because not all players are wise enough to let some things be. They will simply put in more time because the game ‘requires’ it, and don’t pay attention to the impact it has on their lives. Please base rewards on what you perceive to still be a ‘healthy gaming habit’, not on the top statistics of the gamer ladder.

This doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be anything for players that enjoy doing one thing in this game a lot though. But the incentive for them should be something other than ‘I need just two thousand more fractals and then I’ll have my legendary backpiece!’

If it seems impossible to make a fair reward track because some players already have incredible amounts of fractals done, then perhaps this achievement track shouldn’t be rewarded.

The same goes with the pristine relics though. Some players most likely have hundreds of them, perhaps even thousands. This doesn’t meant that some rewards should cost a thousand pristine relics.

Keep a human perspective! Don’t just look at the statistics.

I wouldn’t say that thieves are necessarily overpowered in WvW roaming.

But I find them by far the most annoying to fight against.

Whenever I get attacked by one I tend to fend them off. If they keep at it after stealthing and healing back up, I often just sit down and let them kill me. Then I can get out of combat, waypoint and do something more worthwhile or fun. (Like capture a camp or join my team on their way to an objective.)

Actually fighting out the duel is not fun. If they play well, they’ll rarely get killed, while I can either succesfully retreat to a structure/zerg or die. Both of which don’t feel like winning, but dying doesn’t take as much time. If I do manage to win, it is because the thief was playing badly. (Not stealthing when they should, but taking the risk)

I find other professions a lot more fun to fight against. If they run, I can chase, and if they chase, I can see that. (Unlike with the thief, where I’m just left wondering if he’s still around. Often I just waypoint to be sure that he’s not)

Again, it is not about the strength of the thief that is the issue here. It is just that fighting them is not as much fun as fighting other professions. Even if the fight is fair, it feels unfair because we’re never in control of the situation. They can just run away when they feel like it. (And leave us tense while they’re gone)

I think the main problem is that it is just a bit too long.

Take away some of the enemies inbetween fights (a group of jungle creatures, a few hologram machines, some of the trash around the spinning boss, and some hologram machines right before the clockheart) and remove that electric jumping puzzle. This could easily take off 45 minutes for casual guild groups without losing the most interesting parts. (Ooze puzzle, Sparki & Slick, The spinning boss, the variety of aetherblade/hologram mobs we find in the dungeon and the Clockheart.)

It is just a bit too much for inexperienced groups to deal with. Especially since many parts require all the teammembers to know what they’re doing. It takes time to explain things and this makes a run often take over 2 hours, sometimes even over 3.

I really like most of the encounters in this dungeon though. Just a shame that it takes so much time to complete.

Proposal Overview

Manual upgrading and other busywork. These are meant to be done by one or two players that are otherwise just sitting in that tower doing nothing but refreshing the siege every now and then.

Goal of Proposal

Making defense a little more ‘active’ and more easy to reward.

Functionality

Manual upgrading

Instead of leaving all the upgrading to the worker, we can now use supply to speed up some of the upgrades ourselves. The upgrade event would now have some pointers as to where they are currently working. We can then use the ‘repair’ animation to upgrade that wall or door.

Associated risks

Upgrades go a bit quicker, this could make it harder to keep the enemy from building a waypoint.

Keep-traps

In the upgrades menu of a tower or keep there is now the option to purchase several traps. These could be spikes, supply traps or alarms (in that order) These upgrades could be set simultaneously with other upgrades, but can only be build by players. (Like the burning oil for example, but these would cost less supply to make)

They would be set outside the tower or keep in specific spots. An enemy would have no way of knowing of the trap, until it triggers. (Unless they have spotted the player building it)

Associated risks

This would make it a bit harder to capture a tower or keep and easier to defend. Which may not be a bad thing?

Training the Recruits

Through talking with NPC’s we can select a training option where we just duel with the NPC. An NPC will gain a level after the fight. (Any level-ups through upgrades are added to this) This could be done in the form of an event.

Associated risks

This would make it a bit harder for small groups to take a tower or keep. (Which may not be a bad thing?)

I don’t know if the lack of waypoints is the problem in Edge of the Mists, but I often find myself walking among the same tracks to the same place (that commander on the other side of the map). I’m often taken down somewhere in the middle and I have to start again.

The walk is long and not much fun.

I think the main problem might be something else though: the lack of interesting objectives. (The mobs protecting it are quite cool, but the objective itself isn’t really worth capturing while your zerg is busy taking down an enemy keep somewhere)

There are often no enemy objectives nearby, nor are they very important in comparison to the fight that the zergs are at. (Also, if I can make it to the zerg, it is less likely that I’ll have to wp back)

The presence of more waypoints would probably only make the walk shorter, which means I’m closer to the action. That’s better than what we have, but not what I would like to see. Which is a situation in which we are inclined to go to other places than that commander tag.

Nike.2631:

I’m not sure that how often a player logs in (or doesn’t) should matter. You learn at the rate you play. If you don’t play much, you don’t learn quickly. This is true when comparing any two rates of play. If anything, infrequent players are much more highly rewarded, since they end up eligible for the daily reward every time they play, compared to someone who does 2-3 runs back to back in a single session.

If the last time I’ve seen a particular fractal is more than 2 months ago, chances are that I don’t remember it vividly enough to come up with the winning strategy this time around.

Then you may be the exact sort of gamer this sinks its hooks into. “Please come back more often than you would otherwise for another try” is a lot stronger proposal than “beat your head against this till you win in a single sitting… and then never feel the need to come back…”

If I could come back more often to try, I might. But I can’t, because fractals are randomly picked. Besides, I would get totally bored by doing the other fractals in between so often before I could finally get another shot at this one.

And how is that different from all of them when PUGing now? One shots might not be better in this regard, but I don’t see how they are worse.

I rarely really PUG, often 3-4 guildmembers and maybe a pug or two. The guildmembers differ every time though. We don’t always take the same approach. But if we would only get one chance, we might just take the safe route every time. (As in, reset the swamp until we get the same wisp set-up, or bring the same characters we brought last time – stealth for the dredge, reflection for the harpies etc. – without trying to tank the dredge or bring stability and succeed otherwise)

Perhaps . But I’d like to explore more than just new coats of paint thrown over the same combat-centric expectations!

I believe there is a lot more to explore within combat. There is plenty of untapped potential for different kinds of combat (see some examples that I wrote in the past few pages).

When I ask my guildies if they want to join me in fractals, they know it’s going to be mostly fighting. That is what they are willing to sign up for. Some puzzles, but mostly fighting.

And since most of the things we can do in this game are combat moves, that is where we can expect the most depth. The trick is to make combat scenarios different from one another, so that different skills become more or less effective.

If we move towards challenges that don’t really require combat, I’m afraid they would soon become one-dimensional. Since the challenge would basically be the same for these encounters: jump on time/jump far enough/craft as fast as you can. Whereas combat can have more depth, because we have more options available. Combat is what we build our characters for, why we spend a lot of time tweaking builds, finding whatever gear and build suits us best. Fractals is the place where combat becomes the most difficult. High level fractals are the place to be for combat enthousiasts.

There is a place for one-try puzzles though. We already have them in guild missions, bounties and puzzles. I just don’t think that fractals is the right place for them.

Nike.2631:

The Lost Witch.7601:

Nike.2631:

How would people react to “One try” fractals – fractals with maybe a timer or other obvious fail condition, and if you do fail you are moved on to another fractal in the same ‘length tier’ (the failed fractal does not count towards getting three before doing a boss fractal).

Well, another problem with this would be that players can’t reliably learn by failing if they can’t repeat the challenge. So they would only get to learn the fractal from:

• Going with a team that knows how to do this.

or

• Watching videos on youtube.

Leaving out what in my eyes is the most interesting and rewarding type of learning:

• By trying out strategies we develop ourselves.

You get to learn every time it pops. The point on these is that they be exciting – a chance to burn through that tier (comparatively) fast if you can figure it out. People will review outside strategy sources, but you’d still have hands-on opportunity to wrestle with it, and in you fail you move on quickly and look forward to your next attempt.

Well, that’s just the thing. We get to learn every time it pops, and only until we fail.
What if I play fractals just a few times a month? Chances are I don’t see that fractal for months. I would have to resort to youtubing it, for I can’t reliably get that fractal. (I did mention that I’ve only seen the thaumanova fractal once, when it came out, right?)

Also, if I fail, I want to think about what went wrong, and then do it right next time. I absolutely love strategizing, to me it is the most fun part of the game. Not being able to retry is taking away most of the strategy here. I am most likely not visiting the same fractal with the same team, so there is no reason to discuss what went wrong/what to do right.

At some point in time, I’ll find a teammember who knows how to do it, tells us to watch this video, which we’ll do, because we’ve only got one shot and we don’t want to make him angry by failing because we’re stubborn. We succeed and I have never had the joy of figuring it out myself.

Oh, and once a strategy is figured out, we’ll use that exact one every time, because we may fail if we use another one. Making it rather dull for players that do fractals often.

Some things are just not suited for fractals, like timed jumping puzzles. I believe we should just keep them seperate.

Nike.2631:

Randulf.7614:

Nike.2631:

How would people react to “One try” fractals – fractals with maybe a timer or other obvious fail condition, and if you do fail you are moved on to another fractal in the same ‘length tier’ (the failed fractal does not count towards getting three before doing a boss fractal).

So if there were a second tier “rising lava race” and the whole party gets swallowed by lava, instead of resetting the whole encounter, you roll for a new fractal from the tier 2 list (possibly getting the lava race again?).

These could be fairly tough but also fairly short for their tier – so that you’d feel an immediate desire to complete it since you’ve been given the opportunity.

I think it would over complicate something that doesn’t need it. Fractals work as they are and this would likely frustrate players needlessly.

Perhaps at the highest of tiers where challenge is more paramount it would be viable, but even then I’m not sure if this would be something fractals would benefit from.

Well, I was thining it would allow fractals to branch into some new challenges.

Imagine a fractal that is essentially the Wintersday jump puzzle.

I will NEVER succeed on it. If its all 5 make it, we’re going back to Dessa’s lab, because I already know the outcome – failure until our eyes bleed. If the win condition is at least 1 person makes it on the first try, awesome, I can stand at the start and cheer them on. And if we all fail, no problem it automatically moves us on to a new fractal. But if it were try-try-try-again until at least one person makes it I’d probably sit there bored off my butt for a few attempts then log out/nominate a return to Deassa lab.

When you are on the second or third fractal in a run, One Try fractals give you a way of recovering gracefully from a bad roll.

((I mean really, how many people would mind the Underground Facility Fractal being ‘One Try’ for uber-rewards and re-roll if you all wipe?))

Well, another problem with this would be that players can’t reliably learn by failing if they can’t repeat the challenge. So they would only get to learn the fractal from:

• Going with a team that knows how to do this.

or

• Watching videos on youtube.

Leaving out what in my eyes is the most interesting and rewarding type of learning:

• By trying out strategies we develop ourselves.

And two more, before the thread ends

Dessa and her chaser lasers

The twisted beekeeper

For more of these, and my motivation to make these, please visit my old thread here: Endgame PvE: Difficulty comes down to dodging

The game has made some progress since that thread, but I believe there is still a lot of room for improvement when it comes to diversity in combat challenges.

And a few more scenarios:

The greenhouse effect

Reclaiming the bloodstone

Spoj The Second.7680:

You can put lore into fractals, I dont mind that. But if it ruins replayability and brings down the challenge then im not going to be happy.

I can agree with this. The reason why lore is brought up so often in this thread is probably not because players desire a lot of cutscenes and flavorful content. It is because fractals offers a place where stuff can happen that lore-lovers would otherwise never be able to see. (Like events from the past)

Well Chris, I’m glad you like my scenarios. I hope you’ll get well soon!

Here are two more:

The branded ooze

A fragile weapon

Chris Whiteside.6102:

In regard to topics I would like to see (if that’s ok):

- Continued discussion about lore in fractals.
- Suggested scenarios (boss, encounter and level design) based on current mechanics and systems in fractals.

Chris

I have put a lot of thought in creating combat scenarios that require more of the way we build our characters. I’ve linked to these scenarios in the past, but I’ll adjust them now for fractals and post them here in batches. (While also spicing up the lore) These are not full fractals, just encounters with a lot of focus on strategy.

Here are the first few:

The arena of Orr

Three titans and the Door of Komalie

Among the ranks of the stone dwarves

Romo.3709:

The more I read the less excited I get about the future of fractals…

Don’t worry Romo, the future of fractals is not entirely in our hands.

Just a short proposal to help with the agony resistance problem:

Proposal Overview

An AR banner

Goal of Proposal

To make it easier for friends and guildmembers to join a higher level fractal.

Proposal Functionality

Introduce an Agony Resistance Banner. It functions like a Magic Find banner, but instead it adds +5 or even +10 agony resistance. It can be bought with a combination of fractal relics and perhaps other things (guild commendations/laurels?), or found as loot from a fractal chest.

Risks

It reduces the amount of AR we need on our gear. So players may not have to grind as much. (=less time spend in the game)
Though it would probably lead to players joining their friends for that higher fractal level. (=more time spend in the game)

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Wethospu.6437:

Could you guys seriously stop this daydreaming? There won’t be perfectly challenging and fun content with unique surprises each time you run it.

This thread would be about 10 pages shorter if people thought, “is this proposal remotely possible considering development resources available?” before they hit Reply.

Edit: Sorry, I didn’t realise my answer became so long

I believe we should look further than the current development resources available. Changes don’t have to happen tomorrow, they can come over the years. More importantly, grand ideas can be adjusted so that they require less work but still offer a lot of the benefits. If we’re only going to offer ideas that are easy to implement, we’re closing our mind to possibilities that come from thinking big.

It is good to point out the flaws in plans, to give them a ‘reality check’, but it should not hold players back from posting their ideas. In a group-brainstorm like this, self-censorship is one of the biggest idea-killers.

As for ‘There won’t be perfectly challenging and fun content with unique surprises each time you run it.’ – Try to look at it from the perspective of someone who does fractals maybe once a week. He has leveled from 1 to 25 in the past 6 months. Fractals don’t offer anything new anymore. The only changes that came in difficulty were the increase of agony required (booooring) and the harpies tossing him off the platform (interesting/annoying).

Now unique surprises ‘each time you run it.’ would be a lot to ask, but some unique surprises would go a long way. (Say every 5 levels something new can pop up)

If you don’t play fractals every day, or more than once a day, a few surprises do make a difference. While to the veteran, they’re all old stuff.

Nearly all the players in my guild are below level 20 fractals. But to many of them, it has already become boring. Because they face the same challenges every time, and it’s going to be more than 10 levels of that still before they’ll reach instabilities. (And some extra grinding for the agony resistance)

As Scorch is trying to view fractals from the eyes of a speed clearer, you might try to view it from the eyes of a casual player. What can’t stay a surprise for you, may still be a surprise for them, since they don’t do fractals that often.

I’ll try to change views myself now as well, which might be easier for me since I have some experience on the ‘other side’:

I played GW1 PvE competitively through the challenge mission leaderboards. I knew them from start to finish to the very last detail. Often the top score would come down to luck. Which was frustrating. But the small changes that allowed for this luck were never a surprise to me, since I did them that often, I had seen all varieties. I didn’t see what the random factor had to offer there, since I could never be sure I had beaten others by strength of by luck. (Or the other way around)

Fractals are not competitive yet, however. But that would undeniably offer a great source of replayability if it also includes a persons own personal achievement track, that rewarded the player for setting a certain score. (Since then they would not only compete against you, and feel miserable for being so bad, but also against themselves, where they can see an improvement) I just think that this kind of replayability should be found in something other than the fractal system as we know it.

A seperate challenge instance that offers more variety than just a timer. That has a ‘score’ that we can try to beat. And that allows for different strategies to have their place. It will not come for free, it will require the same amount of work it’d take to create a new dungeon, and then some for the scoreboard. But I believe it would be worth the effort. The content would be available for everyone, but not everyone would compete for the top scores. Some would only compete with their guildies or themselves.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

Would you rather have 30 new Instabilities or 1 new Fractal?

One new fractal. I have yet to get to my first instability, and I am most likely going to be doing a lot more low level fractals with guildmembers than high level ones.

But even if instabilities were added to lower levels, I think I would prefer the new fractal.

That said, I do like the idea of the instabilities, so if we can have some of those 90 instabilities in addition to a new fractal, that’d be great!

Next is the difficulty/progression question. Personally I’ve always felt that the difficulty scaling in Fractals is a bit redundant. After all, once the creatures have started to one-shot you, does it continue to matter that they keep hitting harder? I know this has been commented on, but I’d like to hear some thoughts on alternatives. If not difficulty scaling (or supposing difficulty scaling simply stopped at a certain level), what else would add meaning to progressing through higher level Fractals? How does that align with your goals, whatever they may be (rewards, defeating hard content, discovery, etc).

I would love it if some of the very basic fights were revamped at higher levels. In a way that they would require a new strategy.

A few examples that come to mind:

If desired I can come up with many more.

Edit: I’ve just read your most recent post, and have this to add:

I don’t think that it would be necessary to adjust these encounters for every level. It would combine with the regular scaling and instabilities to make the fights more difficult overall. Just having them change from say, level 20 onwards, would make the experience of players quite a bit different. So they don’t run approach the fight the same way they did in the previous 20 levels. Players often run the same level fractal anyways. (Because their friends need to level up, or because it’s the easiest one in the bracket.) I don’t think that difficulty has to move up in every direction at every level.

Regarding randomness in fractals

The fractal chain

• I really like that I don’t have the same fractal run every time I do it.

• I really don’t like that I never get to see the thaumanova reactor.

Simplest solution: have a single fractal mode that only offers the reward of that individual fractal. Restrict the overall fractal rewards to the boss levels found at the end of the normal randomized fractal chain.

Adding a random factor to instabilities

• I would rather not see random instabilities. I think they have the potential to add a lbit of strategy. And I can have a lot of fun strategizing beforehand. While I don’t particularly like adapting to a random situation. (It is the difference between making a strong build for a fractal, or making your build less weak.)

Adding random events to fractals

• If these are additional bonus events, like saving those poor humans in the grawl fractal. Then yeah, it could make for a more diverse fractal experience.

• If these are lore heavy bonus events, like catching whoever ruined the thaumanova reactor. Then no, I would become frustrated if I could not reliably experience this. (Or in my enthousiasm show it to a friend)

• If these make the fractal more difficult to complete, then no. At high enough levels we might just have to depend on luck in that case, which is not cool.

• If these have a very specific supercool weapon on their loottable that we can’t find anywhere else. Then no, I can already imagine groups rerolling over and over again to find that event.

On puzzles

Puzzles come in a variety of forms. I consider some of them to be a lot of fun, while others are more tedious. Since fractals has quite a few puzzles, and the subject is being discussed, I figured I’d chime in with my thoughts on some fractal puzzles.

I don’t feel qualified to say anything about the thaumanova reactor fractal, since I’m not lucky enough to roll this one ever.

What I would like to see more of in this game:

The TA aetherblade ooze puzzle. I believe this is a real gem when it comes to tactical approaches to combat. Clever use of pushes, pulls, blinds, reflects and immobilizes is really rewarded in this encounter. The ‘synced’ timing can be a bit infuriating though. But I would absolutely love to see more encounters where our combat skills are used in a different setting than the basic – kill your enemy before he kills you – scenario.

roamzero.9486:

Proposal Overview
Change the capping mechanics in WvW.

Goal of Proposal
The goal is to discourage PvDooring unguarded keeps, and encourage splitting the zerging and moving toward small scale combat, and actual PvP.

Proposal Functionality
A new mechanic in WvW: Mist Essence. Mist Essence is earned primarily through player kills, tags offering only partial essence and full essence from individual stomps (any pve style methods of earning it should be very limited, i.e. capping borderland bloodlust points, no npc farming).

To fully cap any major ppt-earning point (camp/keep/etc), players must “deposit” their essence, otherwise at most you can only reduce a point to neutral state (no karma/exp when neutralizing).

Cap points where a player put in essence return some interest (in the form of essence/buffs/etc), after some time can be withdrawn (maybe in the form of pure loot?).

Interrupting an enemies’ capture lets players loot the invested essence for that cap.

Associated Risks
This is a rough idea that would probably run into issues through testing/implementation. Would probably need several iterations.

Also in a game mode that is mostly mindless zerging, such gameplay mechanics might be too confusing for players if not effectively communicated (I remember as a new wvwer it took some time to understand how the ppt thing worked)

Karma trains/farming would effectively end, this could be seen as a good or bad thing among wvwers.

This could make WvW very slow at the less populated servers. In the night, morning and early afternoon, we would barely be able to get any essence. And without being able to make captures, perhaps the evening wouldn’t fill up either, because there is no one there, because no one can cap anything. (Self fulfilling prophecy)

This might also take ‘care’ of nightcapping… though that’s just a major pain for players that just happen to live on the other side of the planet.

I think we would need some other sources of essence than just mostly player kills to make this work.

urieldhynne.2743:

Only 7 pages in 7 days?

Keep in mind that players have to keep up with other CDI threads as well. Including, but not limited to fractals (17 pages) and ranger (35 pages).

Though I do think Devon could drop another question or proposition for us to discuss.

Romo.3709:

We already have raid like contents where you wait around for an hour at the time because u don’t want to loose your spot. Tequatl and Jungle Wurm.

There is quite a big difference between 5 and 100 though.

GW 1’s 6, 8 or even 12 man instances filled with players often enough. (Until very late in the games lifespan) And we didn’t even have an LFG system there.

And while I don’t think that we should include too many large group instances, I think that a few bigger ones would be a nice addition. In our guild I often log on saying: ‘Hey guild, so, who’s up for a dungeon or fractals this evening?’ And then, according to the amount of time players have, we pick an instance. I am quite sure that if we were to have larger instances, we would just do those if we have enough guildmembers online.

Now wether fractals is the best place to introduce these larger instances, probably not in it’s current structure.

As for smaller group content, would you want them to be full fractal length instances? Or shorter ones?

And what if they found a way to make it more rewarding to do the same content in smaller groups? (In GW1 you wouldn’t have to share your loot with the party if you did things on your own, in GW2 loot doesn’t work that way, but I’m sure something could be arranged) Players are already doing this in dungeons through selling partyslots at the endboss. But that’s not a very elegant way to do it.

Edit: Oh and thanks timmyf!

Nike.2631:

Going back to your “floppy” idea…

If the Mistlock Observatory were expanded or a new small, misty, mysterious bit of fantastical landmass were added (say, about the size of the sPvP training area) with slightly mobile “fractures” that you could identify and then use to enter the exact fractal of your choosing, you could acquire some sort of progress credits used to buy entry into a boss fractal for the big loot. When you have a complete floppy that has been run through ALL the fractals at least once, you can turn it in for a choice of the top tier rewards or maybe a huge infusion of fractal relics (like 800 plus a bonus based on the average difficulty level of your set)

You let people just intent on their daily pick their pieces – much smaller, discrete pieces that can be mix-and-matched over time making the single-sitting commitment smaller.

But to get the good stuff, you have to run them all at least once.

Yeah, this would be nice. (The floppy is reminding me of the GW1 dungeon master guide now, which you could turn in after completing it, but also if you were just over halfway through)

In my mind there could be other instances there as well though. For different group sizes, with different lengths. The possibilities are endless once the structure is in, because of the flexible nature of the mists.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

This particular idea could be done through instability variables and it no where near as much work as creating an explorable version of the fractals (-:

FYI.

Chris

Oh yeah, this was just another thing I wanted to comment on. They were not directly related… though in some way they are…

Rebalancing some bosses to be more or less vulnerable to conditions wouldn’t cause any trouble through an instability. (Instabilities which, I might repeat, I have not reached because AR is preventing me from bringing guildies along at higher level fractals) But other, more extreme diversity in challenges may not function very well in our current system.

Like challenges that require more players. Or challenges that require a very specific approach. Like heavy healing or massive cc. Challenges that require a lot of preparation to make it through. Preparation that we can’t do halfway during fractals because it would take so much time. (Players would just reroll until they had another tier 3 fractal) (For some inspiration here are some examples.)

Now these challenges could be introduced as dungeons, but that wouldn’t allow for the amazing lore-potential of fractals. Where in a flexible explorable fractals of the mist area, instances of all types and sizes could have a home. Oh the potential! (And oh… the amount of work to create! :P)

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Doing something like you have suggested really comes down to man power and global GW2 development priority.

Chris

But wouldn’t it be absolutely awesome?

Terkov.4138:

Proposal Overview
Rebalance of vitality and toughness of bosses.

Goal of Proposal
- Increasing viablity of condition based builds.
- Increasing build/gear diversity.

Proposal Functionality
Lowering health pool and increasing armor of bosses would encourage players to use condition based builds up to stacking limit before going into full berserker team. Rebalance should be done in a way that’d keep kill times same as they are now for full power oriented team.

Associated Risks
- Going from one extreme into another – too high toughness to vitality ratio could make condition builds too good. It’d be mostly fixed by conditions stacking limit.

I think it would be nice to have a variety of boss fights in this regard. Some where conditions really shine, others where they’re not quite as good.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Nike.2631:

Maybe we can get some insight from our Host:

Chris, what do you see as the long term value proposition of Fractals? Not necessarily the company policy, just your take as a well-informed designer. Why should players keep coming back after getting their rings & backpack and/or getting to level 50? What is the lasting appeal of this content? You’ve mentioned a blue sky dream of large-group fractals. Any other outside-the-box wishes that might help us better grasp the scope of changes this discussion might precipitate?

Hi Nike,

I am hoping that we can inject more lore and epic moments into the fractals. That we can transport player’s to even more iconic periods of Guild Wars history.

What if we could send players forward in Fractal time?

I am hoping that we can build on the strong foundation that we have with base Fractal mechanics and continue to build challenging encounters through strategic gameplay and strong ‘team’ centric inter-dynamics.

I as a player also hope that we can make fractals more rewarding, especially in regard to ascended acquisition.

I hope this answers some of your questions. Fractals are one of my favorite parts of the game and these are some of my wishes for their evolution.

Chris

How set are we on the current fractal structure in this regard? (An adventure of 4 semi-randomly picked mini dungeons)

Because I think that with a different structure, the lore possibilities can be enjoyed by a lot more people than just the hardcore fractal crowd. (Since reaching those bits of lore can be quite a hassle in the current system, especially if they are on the third and fourth fractal tier)

I would really like to see fractals of the mists as an explorable area. Where players can travel through the mists at their own risk. Where party sizes can differ between fractals. And where we can feel the thrill of exploration as true pioneers. (Going further than any NPC from ‘our’ Tyria has traveled before)

Nike.2631:

So, if fractals had individual rewards and we could pick exactly which ones to do, we’d essentially have recreated dungeons. The question becomes, are the Devs satisfied with the dungeons and the vast imbalances in the usage of the various paths? Imbalances that scaled rewards appear to have done little to redress. Best Reward:Effort ratios were worked out to 5 decimal places and enshrined in common practice. Those cyclical compulsion loops are very tight and very easily worn out. Fractals, through their random elements have much greater longevity because they don’t let you burn yourself out so easily. Its a quality we should not be so quick to discard in the never-ending chase after the shinies.

Well, there are more differences between fractals and dungeons than just the reward system and the random factor.

• The freedom of lore design. (It can be an event in the past for example, or completely unrelated to the Tyria we know)

• The freedom in length, since they can be introduced in tiers, their length doesn’t have to be equal. (With dungeons this is also the case, but there is no fix for it like in fractals, so everyone just does CoF1, instead of 2 and 3)

• The scaling system. In which the same content is available at various difficulty levels.

That said, I think that the random fractal system is ok. I just believe that it could be better to have a non-random fractal system in addition to that. Because I am tired of cliffside, uncategorized and the swamp, but I would love to see thaumanova sometime. (And for some reason, I never get that one)

And the more we play fractals, the more frustrating it will become, since in the future, new fractals get a smaller chance of popping up per run, unless they take some of the older fractals out of the pool.

I think we could have both the current system and a ‘reliable’ explorable version of fractals of the mists. Where the old system is kept running by the level-up system , the reward scheme and ofcourse future additions, perhaps direct copies from ‘explorable fractals’.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

In a similar way to the exercise that Orpheal has under taken it would be wise now to ask you all to pick 1 area that you would prioritize above all others having has the chance to have seen everyone’s opinions around each others proposals.

Chris

The single highest priority for me is:

A change to the acquisition of AR.

I do fractals every now and then, but I rarely gain levels because the people I play with don’t have enough fractal relics or ascended items to get enough AR to play at my level. (So I have done a lot of level 1-15 fractals, but I am still only level 27)

It would be great to be able to share some agony resistance with other people. This would go against agony resistance as a hard lock for ‘skilled’ or ‘experienced’ players, but I don’t find that a particularly interesting lock to begin with. I just want to be able to play with my friends at the more challenging fractal levels. (For which they are certainly skilled enough, I might add)

This issue is followed closely by fractal diversity. All fractal runs are starting to become more of the same thing. This might be because I never roll Thaumanova, or because I have not been able to reach the instabilities because of issue #1, but for a game type that supports the opportunity for ‘endless combinations’ it doesn’t feel very refreshing.

All the other problems that I’ve read about are not as important to me as these two.

Exploring the mists

Proposal Overview

The fractals of the mists lobby becomes an explorable area with a lot of instances.

Goal of Proposal

The idea here is to allow more variety in the fractal experience. A journey through the mists is a magical experience where anything can happen. Our current fractal experience of 4 semi-random fractals in groups of 5 is quite a restrictive way to explore the endless opportunities of the mists. This proposal would allow devs to implement rich fractals that can’t work as dungeons in the open world and it would allow players to explore fractals in a less restricted setting.

Proposal Functionality

In short:

• The fractal lobby becomes a large explorable area.

• Dessa’s experiments keep going on. FotM will still be developed.

• Other means of navigation come up that allow us to travel to the slowly moving islands in the sky. (Such as a hot air balloon, margonite spaceship, holographic pathway, a giant in an air canoe or by simply jumping down)

• New fractal islands arrive every now and then, while we try to anchor the islands that are leaving our ‘fractal orbit’.

• Entering a fractal island would be like entering a dungeon. Each one holds one or several instances. These can vary greatly in length, group size and reward. Many of these may also appear in Dessa’s experiments. Nearly identical islands may even offer the same area in another time.

Risks

There is no room for risks in this post. Just: lots of development time required, at the expense of open world content.

Nuzt.7894:

The Lost Witch.7601:

Nightingale.8364:

Lets keeps PVE as much out as possible is the development ideas. As stated before, there is plenty of pve outside wvw to keep anyone happy. WVW players want to play wvw, not run around killing grubs etc.

PvE elements have some serious benefits for WvW design though. Here are a few examples:

• They make it easier to implement an idea, since the designers can more easily figure out what is possible. (If a player could have the commander siegerazer ability… that’d open up a lot of interesting lines of play, but probably also a lot of overpowered exploit-like things)

• They offer players something to do while they wait for their party to get ready.

• They make it possible for players to enjoy a fight when they’re too small in numbers to take on a larger objective. (Walking over a capture point to take it when nothing defends it isn’t interesting at all. I very much prefer killing some guards first.)

I’m not saying that we should fill the WvW map with grubs, just that the NPC’s have their purpose. Perhaps the aspect of EotM that makes players believe it’s a ‘PvE’ map, is that the fights are often in one place, far away. And you have to run from your own keep all the way there. In between you find nearly no one, because they’re all fighting at the choke point on the other side of the map.

No one is defending any objectives in between, because they don’t have much value. And players aren’t organized enough to wait around the spawn to gather a new group and attack somewhere else. So it appears to be all useless NPC’s that you meet.

I don’t think the problem lies with the amount of NPC’s, but with the nature of the objectives that the NPC’s protect. They just don’t have enough value, because the fight isn’t really about getting that generator, or that tower… it is about getting the enemy keep. (At least, this is how I perceive it)

To keep it simple, the majority of WvW players were extremely unhappy with Anet putting the LS into WvW during season 1. People do not come to WvW to PvE, the largest portion of the game is already dedicated to this type of stuff, keep it out of WvW. How happy do you think the PvE player base would be if Anet suddenly announced that all PvE zones now included WvW. They would be irrate, they would not be able to enjoy their game mode without fear of being ganked over and over. If you want to PvE so bad go do it in the zones dedicated to PvE. There are no benefits to bringing it into WvW unless you consider kittening off an already volatile community a benefit.

Bringing WvW into PvE is not quite the same thing, and you know it. (In WvW we can avoid the wolves, in PvE we couldn’t avoid the fear of being ganked)

WvW is not a good place for the living story, since this leads to conflict between those who want to do WvW and those who just want to get their living story achievements done.

But that doesn’t mean that there is no place for NPC’s altogether.

I’ve already listed three reasons to have NPC’s in my earlier post, but I’ll offer a few more:

• They make the battlefield more realistic. (Without them, most camps, keeps and towers would always look empty)

• They can do boring stuff for you. (Like carrying supply from a depot to a keep. While also opening up strategic opportunities, like stopping the supply chain)

• They can set up a ‘minimum’ requirement for taking an objective. So that a single player can’t capture an entire map during the night for example.

• They can help to create an interesting setting. The Kodan in the ice keep of EotM really add something to the atmosphere of that place for example.

In short: I don’t think you realise how boring it would be to find nothing but doors, walls and capture circles until you finally meet an enemy.

The ‘PvE in WvW’ problem is not with the fact that there are NPC’s, but what their function is.

If they’re just grubs, skritt and harpy queens, then yeah… what is the point (though, perhaps ‘decoration’ is enough)? But if they’re dolyaks, guards and siegerazers, they suddenly have meaning.

That said, I play on Underworld, which means that many fights are small in nature, which gives NPC’s extra value. Perhaps you play in more populated servers in which NPC’s become negligible.

Nightingale.8364:

Lets keeps PVE as much out as possible is the development ideas. As stated before, there is plenty of pve outside wvw to keep anyone happy. WVW players want to play wvw, not run around killing grubs etc.

PvE elements have some serious benefits for WvW design though. Here are a few examples:

• They make it easier to implement an idea, since the designers can more easily figure out what is possible. (If a player could have the commander siegerazer ability… that’d open up a lot of interesting lines of play, but probably also a lot of overpowered exploit-like things)

• They offer players something to do while they wait for their party to get ready.

• They make it possible for players to enjoy a fight when they’re too small in numbers to take on a larger objective. (Walking over a capture point to take it when nothing defends it isn’t interesting at all. I very much prefer killing some guards first.)

I’m not saying that we should fill the WvW map with grubs, just that the NPC’s have their purpose. Perhaps the aspect of EotM that makes players believe it’s a ‘PvE’ map, is that the fights are often in one place, far away. And you have to run from your own keep all the way there. In between you find nearly no one, because they’re all fighting at the choke point on the other side of the map.

No one is defending any objectives in between, because they don’t have much value. And players aren’t organized enough to wait around the spawn to gather a new group and attack somewhere else. So it appears to be all useless NPC’s that you meet.

I don’t think the problem lies with the amount of NPC’s, but with the nature of the objectives that the NPC’s protect. They just don’t have enough value, because the fight isn’t really about getting that generator, or that tower… it is about getting the enemy keep. (At least, this is how I perceive it)

haviz.1340:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

MokahTGS.7850:

I also would like Fractals (and to a lesser extent, Dungeons) to evolve to allow for 2-5 player scaling. I know they are currently designed for 5 people, but I’d like to see the balance code reworked in such a way that 2 people could run through a fractal and be rewarded for that level scale. Obviously 5-man fractals would reward more, but I personally just want to run through them with my wife…currently that isn’t possible.

Call it “Casual-mode” for Fractals.

Personally I would like to see Fractals be able to be 5+ as well with associated risk/reward mechanics.

Chris

In guildwars, the more people you have, the easier the game becomes. Aoe cap for example severely limits content for 5+.

Content could be created that requires the team to split up at several points throughout the fractal though. But yeah, I believe that new content would be a better fit than adjusting the current fractals.

Maybe fractals should become less of a ‘combination of 4 randomized mini dungeons’ and more of a ‘journey of exploration through the mists’…

A new fractal background structure could allow for many ideas in this thread to find a place. Such as leaderboards, (historic) lore fractals, rewards based on individual fractals, larger fractal parties and more difficult content.

veo.9243:

Guesting in WvW

snip

Risks
As far as i can see none, but my head hurts

Well, I can imagine that if a server is performing really well, they at one point dominate their own WvW bracket. They can then decide to guest on an underpopulated server in their color, capture all there is to capture there, and move on, etc. etc.

The difference between a high tiered server and a low tiered server is big not only in numbers, but also in strength.

I’m afraid that it would just turn into an endless karma train. Where players avoid the fight, often not even on purpose.

DevonCarver.5370:

I think there has been good discussion around the concepts of world pride and how the changes in EotM affect that. Let’s pivot to a different concept from EotM and how it could apply to WvW.

I’m curious what you all think about choke points as strategic ideas. I don’t think we’d ever want a map that was just a bunch of canyons, this isn’t Sparta or Thermopylae, but having areas that make it harder for large groups to get through if they are well-defended creates gameplay. Think of a tower that guards the only pass through a canyon, rather than bridges everywhere. Is that something that, in moderation, could provide for more varied and strategic gameplay?

For the purposes of the question, think in terms of building a new map from scratch, rather than retrofitting the current maps.

I do like a good choke point, but I wouldn’t want it to be the only way to get somewhere. Ideally there would be a variety of options.

I’ve made a quick drawing to give an example of what I would like to see:

• The red castle is for a large part surrounded by mountains.

• The tower at the upper right corner of the image is a choke point tower. It guards the shortest way to the castle.

• The smallest red structures are merely watchposts. They can only be reached from either the tower or the castle and they offer strategic places to place siege.

• The blue lines are routes to the castle. The red lines describe routes that can only be reached from within the red structures.

• The paths through the mountains are very narrow and full of choke points. They are dangerous because falling off a cliff is deadly, and a siege engine from the watchposts can easily knock enemies off. The paths are too small to place siege though. So the options are limited. (Making this kind of chokepoint differ from the one guarded by the tower)

• The longest path goes around the mountain. It has no chokepoints, but it it is very long. Which might prove problematic if you suffer many losses and you need reinforcements. Or if you need to run for supply.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi Folks,

Good discussion. I am enjoying it. The discussion about re rolling is very insightful.

I would appreciate it if you could put some ideas forward for Leader-board mechanics.

Specifically in regard to the fact that I was unhappy with us putting out Leader-boards in their previous functionality (having lots of folks sitting at lvl 50 was not ideal) and therefore the feature was held back.

Obviously we have given Level 50 Leader diversification a lot of thought but it would be awesome to hear your proposals. Note there are a lot of logic problems in the solutions in this area so please do think about associated risks.

Cheers

Chris

I don’t think that fractals are well designed for a leaderboard.

Their random nature makes it difficult to really work towards a certain goal.

If we were to have the ‘quickest overall time’ then we need to get lucky with the fractals we get.

If we were to have the ‘quickest individual fractal time’ then we can’t reliably prepare for an individual fractal (except those in tier 1),

If the limit is set to ‘whoever reaches level or rank x the fastest.’ I think we may be stimulating a bad gaming habit. (Gaming for a few days straight when the new update comes out) And it wouldn’t be decided so much by skill as by the amount of time a person has available.

But! You already know that, and are asking for a good suggestion to make leaderboards work.

So… I’ll mention my idea again:

Challenge missions similar to those in GW1.

They were awesome, though too easy to exploit for a solid leaderboard. Close the exploits and you have a brilliant recipe for a PvE leaderboard.

Fractals may not be the place for this. Unless the randomness goes away, or we develop a seperate set of fractals with this competitive goal in mind.

Proposal Overview

Environmental siege (inspired by EotM cannon statuary)

Goal of Proposal

Introducing new strategic options, to be able to surprise even veteran WvW-ers. And to allow for small groups to take larger objectives if the enemy isn’t paying attention.

Proposal Functionality

Avalanche

In the borderlands an event can be started to find and chime bells that keep ringing as long as you control the bells. After a certain amount of time, the nearby cliff will start to come down and change the terrain. (Oh, and crush everyone underneath) You can now walk over the first wall of garrison. The terrain stays crumbled until the place is cleared by the defenders.

Bowling

In an event, a couple of miners are led up to a treacherous cliff where they carve out a perfectly round boulder. After a few minutes of carving out the perfect path (chosen by players) the boulder can be rolled over the edge to destroy anyone in it’s path and of course the gate of the keep or tower.

Poisoning the well

You travel through the borderlands carrying a kettle. The enemy can easily spot you if they are nearby, because you carry an event marker. After visiting the skritt, the centaurs, the ruins and the garden, you have found all the ingredients you need to create a powerful poison. This poison can be used once as ammunition for a treb or catapult and it will leave a strong, long lasting acid (a couple of minutes) that ticks for quite a bit of damage. It can also poison water, so it will make it impossible for players to travel from inner bay to the outside. (And the other way around for as long as the duration of the poison lasts)

Magical fire

Through the borderlands stalks a mythical creature fire imp. It carries a bright red fire that can be stolen and used to set even a reinforced gate on fire. The process is slow, but it doesn’t require the presence of a player after the fire is first lit.

The underground tunnel

If you befriend the dredge in EB, you can pay them a hefty price to start building a tunnel into stonemist. They’ll stop working as soon as you lose control over the dredge, and the process takes quite a bit of time. The tunnel will cave in after the dredge change allegiance, or stonemist is taken by those who control the dredge .(suffocating anyone inside)

The Hylek assassination squad

These frogs will run all over the map to slay any dolyaks coming into stonemist.

The Ogre rock slingers

These brutes will regularly walk past the walls to take out any npc’s and siege placed there. (Often contesting stonemist)

Well.. you get the idea. The more of these, the better.

Associated Risks

It may become really hard for undermanned servers to keep their objectives if they lack scouts.

These are for a large part based on NPC events (because I believe these are probably easier to implement?) which many of you do not seem to be fond of. Perhaps a more player based version can be created though. (Where players buy an environmental mining pick from the dredge and carve out boulders themselves at suitable locations)