Guild Wars 2

Airman from Strayanz [mate] here.

(Although, let it be known, I’m actually US East but I just play between 6 AM and 11 AM)

I think there may be 8 teams on, but it’s a case of chicken – one team queues, waits 5 minutes, then leaves because they think nobody else is queueing. Or there might now actually be 8 teams, which would frankly be a bit depressing. I’d be up for creating an Oceanic time zone paid tourney sync guild – just message me in game.

Perhaps being allowed to queue for EU would be somewhat of an OK solution, although ping times would be atrocious.

Braxxus.2904

I also have reached the 30’s from TPvP. I have 8 slots and a character of each class as well. I too have been spending a vast amount of time on my ele lately (or my engi, they both have “many buttons” capabilities which I find entertaining).

I have had my kitten pushed in whilst solo-to-3-man queuing (haven’t been lucky enough to find a 4th and 5th non-raging over vent elitist yet) by TP, AC, SS and a few other notable teams on more than one occasion which has actually been pretty fun tbh just to see how their comps work first hand and whatnot.

I disagree with your balance list pretty strongly in a few areas after both playing against and playing AS the various classes in tourney’s and from spending probably an obscenely large amount of time watching streams from players of various classes and various teams.

Mesmer – 9
At least. The class can do no wrong. It’s one of the best node controllers, support classes, roamers and duelists and never requires a trait change. Change portal to null field or back as needed and that’s the only change that ever needs to occur to fill any of those team roles. Best class in the game hands down. Also probably the only class in the game that I’ve played where I really don’t need to pay attention to, nor care what my opponent does. Sure I watch for something to dodge and all but for the most part I can and do run through my exact same execution to drop a bunker as I do a roamer as I do a “support/balanced” character. It just really doesn’t matter much at all. The only reason I wouldn’t rate playing my mesmer as mind numbingly simple as playing my thief is that it does actually require weapon swaps and a rotation of multiple abilities. My thief requires 3 keys to drop someone and 2 of those could be tied to a macro if I were so inclined.

Ele – 3 OR 8
Purely depending on player skill. At top level of play the class is insane mode. It can achieve amazing feats that almost single handedly carry a team to victory. When it’s not played to perfection however it’s power drops off dramatically until it’s almost a waste of a team slot.

Engi’s and necros are both very similar to ranking of the ele. The difference in team contribution and power rating are so very depending on player skill that visually it’s more of a skill CLIFF than a skill curve. Those 3 classes (ele, engi, necro) are probably the skill-to-power model that should be applied to every class imho.

Warriors – 3
Good for SPvP zerg stomping and WvWvW zerg stomping. Complete kitten in competitive play. Sorry warrior fans, but you’re dragging your team down and if highly skilled would be accomplishing far more on a better class with that skill than you do by handicapping yourself on a “meh” class.

I don’t think Mesmers are as overboard as you think they are. The Mesmer Shatter combo is pretty easy to avoid in a 1v1. The phantasm builds are basically non-existent now. However, they have annoyingly good survivability – and the addition of portal and time warp makes them excellent team fighters. Overall, they have a ton of utility. I probably could have rated them a 7.

I wouldn’t put Ele at an 8 in the hands of a good player. Certainly they have one of the highest skill caps in the game, but even so, I would put them at a 6. That being, very strong, but not abusing silly mechanics to victory (like the guardian block bug).

Same thing goes with Engy and Necro.

I still think Warriors are viable in competitive play, unless you can give a valid reason otherwise other than just calling them a “meh” class…

NaZ.1457:

Traverse, I think you over-simplify a lot of stuff in for the sake of being concise.

The reason why Thieves are OP is that there are no player-induced (Read: skill) counters to a well played thief.

Consider:
- they can ALWAYS escape to heal.
- they have on demand, 100% damage mitigation in the form of stealth. Even block/invuls/shields pale in comparison, as stealth forces the other player to retarget (exceeding difficult considering how absurdly many classes have pets, including thieves), while other class’s abilities don’t force retargetting. Either way, every fight a thief enjoys many extra seconds of no incoming damage, and there is NO COUNTER.
- they get an upper hand at the start of most fights, all if played properly. Stealth combined with “backstab-like” abilities is not something that can really be countered in a skilled match. You can’t counter what you can’t see – and even if you get lucky dodge/AoE guessing, 5 seconds later you’d have to do it again. NO REAL COUNTER.
- stealth executes are priceless, and better than stability (ie. no dmg taken from downed opponent). There is NO COUNTER to stealth execute.
- thieves are impossible to kite. If they are ever crippled, they go stealth – completely eradicating any hope of doing damage while kiting – which is a ranged class’s only hope. They have multiple teleports/leaps, and only an elementalist burning cooldowns can really get away. Otherwise, NO COUNTER.
- downed teleport is an incredible skill – and saves more thieves (and mezmers) than any other downed ability. It always takes longer to finish them (even for ranged classes). This pays off huge when defending points, waiting for backup, etc. Again, there is NO COUNTER to this.

On a spreadsheet, thief abilities don’t seem over-powered. But it is the one class that has NO COUNTERS when played properly.

Defending thieves by saying “groups can target and burst them at the start of fights” is not a counter, or balance. Any class, regardless of being OP, can be group bursted at the start of fights. That’s really not the point, but identifying that as an option really suggests there they have no gameplay-based COUNTER.

Good post. I’ll agree with you on some points but disagree with you on others.

What I agree with:

Thief Down state being a bit too strong. It’s hard to down a Thief. However, the counter to that argument is that if a Thief is getting rezzed and he teleports, his teammates need to move as well. I think it needs a bit of a change though.

Thieves have the upper hand at the start of a fight. There is very little you can do to prevent the backstab. It’s what you do AFTER the backstab that matters. That’s why it’s crucial that Thieves aren’t able to kill people before they get out of stealth. My solution was to remove the C&D + Steal combo, but it can also be achieved in different ways. Note I said earlier that glass cannons should be able to one shot other glass cannons – I meant this by being able to kill in a short combo. So Steal, Backstab, and Heartseeker, where the Heartseeker would be out of stealth and therefore avoidable.

Thieves have MANY gap closers. It’s frustrating to deal with, certainly. Some professions like Ranger have very few stuns or ways to avoid this. In my opinion, the best way to deal with a Thief spamming leaps (well actually most professions in general) is with an Immobilize. This forces them to use up a stealth, in which you can run away from them, forcing to waste their stealth break on a gap closer and not backstab.

What I disagree with:

Thieves can not “Always” escape to heal. Especially not when stunned. Remember, most backstab Thieves don’t run with any stun breaks! Daze and Stun/Knockdown are your best friends!

While a Thief does have on-demand stealth (when it’s off cooldown), it’s definitely not 100% damage mitigation. Thieves are still hit by conditions, AoEs (new conditions can be applied while in stealth), and weapon cleave. While it does force retargetting, I’ve had many a Thief die against me while in stealth due to condition damage.

Certainly in 1v1 Stealth executes are strong. Also in team fights. However while in stealth Thieves can still get knocked back from skills like an Engy’s Big Ol’ Bomb, or Dazed from a Mesmer’s Chaos storm. So, strong but counterable. I think that invuln stomps (Ele mist form, Mesmer Distortion) are stronger than stealth stomps.

Overall, Thieves are counterable with teamwork – and certainly lose in 1v1s vs tanky condition damage builds.

QSpec.4298:

Where do you get that the game is balanced around tourney play? If you think a game that refuses to balance (at least in part) to the more casual sPvP can support itself on a minority alone…

Take Dota for example. It is certainly balanced at the highest level of play, but it still has to cater toward the middle as well. It has done so successfully and enjoys a large community because of it.

Moreover, I have a feeling (conjecture here) that bunker builds are going to take a hit. They aren’t fun to watch for e-sports. If this is the case then the thief will again rise in strength. There were tourney exclusive players who regularly complained about the thief until the bunker build became ubiquitous.

Certainly they wouldn’t leave sPvP in a state where it was completely lopsided. But it’s not like they are going to do a complete rework of the Thief profession because people can’t deal with backstab Thieves… And believe me, a Thief nerf is coming in the next balance patch. But they will probably still be strong following the patch in sPvP if people keep playing the way they are currently. Just less 1-shotty-ness.

ehtom.5047:

So, you are a self proclaimed top player who basically thinks everything is fine? How can you be so arrogant to think that you are better than everybody else?

I have seen various streamers who have won tons of tournaments state that thieves, in particular backstab, are broken. Just a few hours ago I saw Xee (R40 tpvp mesmer) get INSTA-GIBBED from stealth by a thief with 12k backstab. Him dieing instantly caused them to lose the match…

Where did I say I was better than anyone? I merely cited that I have a bunch of experience playing in tournaments.

Okay, so you saw a glass-cannon Mesmer get one-shot by a glass-cannon Thief. In a different situation, the Mesmer could just as easily one-shot the Thief. Does that make Mesmers overpowered? Mesmers can also one-shot Rangers, Engineers, Warriors, Necros, etc… The price of playing as a glass-cannon is being extremely flimsy.

Kat.5982:

Another ‘the game is balanced around tournament pvp, so if you don’t play that, sucks for you’ post. People like you, and I’ve seen this justification in every online game I’ve played, will never learn that a miniscule, absolutely miniscule, portion of the population plays pvp at the highest level, so trying to use that type of play as a basis for balance does not work. You don’t alienate 99% of players for the sake of the top 1%.

I’m not trying to alienate anyone. But do you really expect ArenaNet to balance around a game mode where nobody works together? Where people simply go in with their glass cannon build, get one shotted by a Thief, then whine about it on the forums? Then afterwards refuses to modify their builds to beat said Thief?

It’s not like Thieves are unstoppable in sPvP. It’s just that people are unwilling to modify their builds and playstyles to counter them… In fact most people think that they should be able to build however they want and be able to succeed vs everything. And people think that if they are on their 100b Glass Cannon Warrior and get 1-shotted by a Thief, that the game is horribly inbalanced, when the truth is that if they had built more balanced they could have won the fight.

Jordan.9132:

Traverse.2315:

Thief: 5 Why? I’ll go into it more later, but a Thief in it’s current iteration functions as a sniper – killing weak/vulnerable targets in a fight or by themselves. (There are the caltrops builds which also can be effective). However, a good team will focus them as soon as they come out of stealth.

Easily killing weak/vulnerable targets = kill everything in >5 seconds except guardian?

Also, even if a thief gets caught out of stealth he will just blink away and/or blink again or stealth. Good teams will never focus a thief in a teamfight as they are very hard to kill, and even if you do down them, they have the a very strong down state ability and will easily be rezzed.

If a Thief is running Dagger mainhand,he has no blink/shadow return to get away. He might stealth, yes, but assuming he’s already in the middle of a teamfight, he’ll be taking incidental damage from AoEs and weapon cleave.

The way my team deals with Thieves is a hard swap. So we’ll be focusing let’s say an Engineer in a team fight, then when a Thief pops into combat, everyone swaps to him. With proper stuns and CCs, the Thief usually stands no chance.

Guardian: 6 Why? Retal nerf was okay, but moreso other bunkers have stepped up to par. Still the staple mid point holder, though.

Warrior: 5 Why? People have gotten more creative with builds, and the Warrior fight presence makes them valuable on a team if played correctly.

Ranger: 5 Why? Shortbow nerf was unexpected, but there are other builds that allow Rangers more versatility than most professions (traps, rez spirit, etc)

Engineer: 5 Why? As an Engineer player, I see too many bad specs (I’m talking to you, Elixir U + pistol/pistol). Engineer bunker is not as good as Ele or Guardian bunker IMO. Engineers are strong, but easily focused in team fights. Starting to become more niche.

Thief: 5 Why? I’ll go into it more later, but a Thief in it’s current iteration functions as a sniper – killing weak/vulnerable targets in a fight or by themselves. (There are the caltrops builds which also can be effective). However, a good team will focus them as soon as they come out of stealth.

Elementalist: 5 Why? Staff Elementalist is now pretty much a requirement on Kyhlo. They are excellent roaming supporters and I like their role currently. People are complaining that they are impossible to kill at the treb, but that’s not true, you just need someone with sustained non-condition damage.

Mesmer: 6 Why? Portal and Timewarp. Portal is THE best mobility spell in the game, allowing a team to be very greedy when playing. Hard to counter, as well. And then TimeWarp essentially guaranteeing a team fight win.

Necromancer: 5 Why? Bug fixes and exploration of builds and playstyles. I’ve seen a lot of good players testing the waters with Necro recently. Pretty good point holders, can be devastating if coordinating with another condition damage build on the team.

Post Script: Why are Thieves balanced right now? Well I’ll start by addressing the two major complaints of the Thief right now.

The first complaint is that their damage is too high. The second complaint is that they have too much stealth and evasion for the amount of damage they do.

Thief damage is abnormally high. I’m not going to say that it isn’t. However I think one small change will fix all of the Thieves backstab problems: change steal to interrupt the current cast. This will prevent the Steal + C&D + Backstab instagib. I honestly think that 9-10k backstab is okay. (And I’m saying this as a bunker elementalist whose gotten one-shotted by many a thief). The backstab build is a very high risk, high reward build, and both teams need to coordinate to make the build work or to shut it down. The two most important steps to shutting a backstab thief down are positioning and preparedness. You need to know that the thief is coming, and position yourself in friendly AoEs or next to teammates to prevent yourself from getting killed.

Next, I don’t understand people who complain about Thief stealth. When you’re in stealth, you can’t neutralize or cap a point. Stealth generally doesn’t last long enough to be able to camp an area and abuse it. The function of stealth is to allow a thief to get into and out of a fight with ease. That’s one of the tenets of the Thief class! If they couldn’t stealth, they wouldn’t be a Thief. Saying that it’s unfair that a Thief takes advantage of stealth is like saying that it’s unfair that a Mesmer takes advantage of clones and phantasms. Overall, I think that the Stealth mechanic in this game is more balanced and exciting than in a game like WoW with perma-stealth and stealth dropping on hit.

Conclusion:
You’ll notice that according to my ratings, the game is very balanced. Which it is, for tPvP. Honestly the reason Thieves dominate in sPvP is due to the lack of coordination, and the inflation of people (allowing a Thief to hide in a pack of allies and pick of weak enemies). I still think Mesmers and Guardians need a little balancing. The easy fix for Guardian is to remove the 3 second block bug, and other bugs that people have found. I think for Mesmers, a reduced radius on Time Warp would be fair, and increase the cooldown on Portal. Overall I’m happy with current balance, I see diversity in team comps now (outside of every team having a Mesmer and a Guardian, with many teams but not all running staff Elementalist).

Please share your thoughts! And, as always, keep it rational and level-headed.

This is a continuation of my first thread, which you can find >here<

I enjoy reading the spvp forums during lunch and before I go to bed. I have come to terms with the fact that there will be some amount of whining and complaining on the forums, but it’s gotten ridiculous as of late with the Thief QQ. I’ll address that in this thread, as well as my other thoughts.

For some quick credentials, if you didn’t visit my last topic, I’m now a rank 30 player with over 400 tourney wins. Recently I’ve been playing a TON of Elementalist, but I have tournament experience with all the professions. I’ve played a bit of sPvP but most of my time is spent in tPvP (where the game is balanced around, keep in mind)

Before I start talking about actual balance, let me give some arbitrary numbers on where I think balance is. The rating system is 1-10, with 1 being completely useless, and 10 being ridiculously overpowered. If everything was completely balanced everyone would have a 5. I’m not going to go as in-depth as last time.

An interesting quote from Jon Peters in HoM tonight regarding Guardian Balance

Jon Peters

bunker guardian has to much retal period. obviously. frankly, to much prot also. but that is not the heart of the matter. the core problem is retal. because with it, bunker builds eliminate spike builds from the meta game. which in turn makes bunker builds OP. so the counter to them is beeing countered by them. aka balance problem. defensive builds are important, they help establish strategies. but they are als determining the entire meta right know.

Source: http://i.imgur.com/D6Ms5.jpg and http://i.imgur.com/EphZv.jpg

So obviously guardians giving perma-retal is overpowered atm, which I agree with.

Also, interestingly, Jon Peters is unsure that taking repair kit through portals is OP.

portal is great
not sure aobut taking repair kit through it yet

Source: http://i.imgur.com/L9jXV.jpg

Overall, the devs said that they are working as hard as they can on balance and PvP in general. This is a huge game, give them the benefit of the doubt.

Numot.3965:

I feel that because warrior is so well balanced and brings nothing blatantly strong to the table people think they are a weak profession. People also have some bizarre hang ups on building them (and even how they are supposed to function in comparison to other professions), and are working with artificial constraints. The curse of anything competitive seems to be a focus on copy-cat builds versus innovation, I suppose. Really they shine depending on the player ability more so than the others due to having no gimmicks or tricks to hide behind in higher level play.

I think people hide behind gimmicks much more in 8v8 than in high level play. That’s why Heartseeker Thief, Greatsword Warrior are so popular. At the higher level, you can’t rely on that kind of stuff, which is why people need to change up their Warrior builds to be more consistent. I’ve seen some good Warrior builds, just not in practice that much. I can only hope.

LiuliRenai.3928:

Traverse, say, maybe I’m reading too much into things, but from your comment that thieves aren’t useful in condition heavy teams I assume you’re not taking condition thieves into consideration, which leads to another assumption on my part that you don’t find condition thieves too useful in tournament play.

I was wondering as a condition thief that so far only plays in PuG games, if I were to join tournament matches with my current build – what role should i try to take on and what team compositions I might be useful for, if at all?

Well, it depends on your weapon set really. However I am not a good resource for a Thief, I have played maybe 20-30 games on mine and I’ve only been using Sword/Pistol burst damage really. Maybe go to the Thief forum and ask them?

Zeebie.5937:

Engineer seems to be the jack of all trades master of none, I know I can’t find a build I like with them, as someone can always do their job better. So what built is everyone using in tPvP, I have tried to play a flamethrower roamer but can never really get pass the bunker guardian. I have wondered if a combo field engineer could work since they can lay down a smoke/water/poison/fire field all in short space

I’ve played quite a bit of Engineer. The most effective builds IMO are either condition damage focused around pistol, or burst damage focused around rifle and static shock. I definitely prefer the pistol, because it gives you access to the shield which is an amazing and versatile weapon for defense. As for utilities, I use bomb kit and elixir b, with my 3rd being either slick shoes, flamethrower, or grenades (i switch these out mid-game depending on the situation). I use slick shoes in 1v1, flamethrower if I’m entering a teamfight that has already started, and grenades if I’m entering a teamfight that hasn’t started.

But I agree with your statement of “Jack of all trades, master of none” You have to accept that you can’t build extremely glass cannon/one dimensional. The static shock build being somewhat of an exception.

Yukishiro.8792:

I agree that the reason necros don’t have more than one damaging condition (poison doesn’t count) is the idea that you’re supposed to use conditions against your opponent. But in practice that just doesn’t work. Especially when the most common damage condition, and the one found on the most non-condition builds, is bleed, which you already have.

Necros right now are too shoehorned into countering boon classes and conditon spec classes. They will struggle to find a role until they’re given a second damaging condition and therefore an ability to be a threat to power builds as well.

I agree. They certainly are a class you have to build a team around. However as teamfighters, in the right comp, I still think that they can be extremely effective. It’s unfortunate that Necros lack the versatility to fit cleanly into the current meta.

uncop.5073:

I’m opposed to having a scoring system and not a tiering system, because how good a profession is is directly related to how good the others are at the same jobs. I also feel rating professions might not be the way, because most have builds that play differently, do different jobs and most importantly are in different tiers compared to what the other profs can do. The devs have stated they’re balancing on a per-weaponset basis, not a per-profession one.

A tier system works essentially the same way as a scoring system. It’s just less precise. And the ratings I gave are based on the professions best role, i.e bunker for guardian, roaming for thief. So just take those ratings and make a tier list.

I mean if you really want to take it down by role (which I wouldn’t recommend, because roles are loosely defined. It’s not like league of legends where you have a mid, carry, jungle, support, etc. In GW2 you could have a bunker that roams (Staff Ele), a Roamer that plays point defense (Engineer), or other combinations. And then in addition you could have teams that screw the meta and make a composition based on a nice role, I.E roaming burst-damage teams, or tanky condition teams.

But the hypocrite in me want to make a tier list, so I’ll base it on these roles: Bunker, Defensive Roam, Offensive Roam. Definitions are as follows: a Bunker is a player who is able to sit on a point and stay there against multiple enemies. They should offer good group utility like stability and retaliation. A Defensive Roam is a player who is in charge of defending already capped points, prioritizing the points closest to spawn and mid. They should be capable of holding out in a 1v1, and lasting some time in 1v2 or more. They need mobility to float between points. An Offensive Roam is a player who is in charge of assaulting points, and helping already capped points when needed. They prioritize burst damage and mobility. They do not need to be able to hold points as well as a Defensive Roam.

List:

Bunker:
Tier One: Guardian, Elementalist
Tier Two: Warrior, Engineer, Ranger
Tier Three: Necromancer, Mesmer, Thief

Defensive Roam:
Tier One: Mesmer, Elementalist
Tier Two: Engineer, Necromancer, Ranger
Tier Three: Warrior, Guardian, Thief

Offensive Roam:
Tier One: Thief, Ranger
Tier Two: Engineer, Warrior, Elementalist
Tier Three: Mesmer, Necromancer, Guardian

EDIT: I want to add that tier lists oversimplify things. For example, a Thief may be the perfect roamer for a certain team, but for a condition-based team they may be useless. On the other hand the Necromancer may be a terrible defensive roamer, but on a condition-based team they are absolutely necessary.

Schwahrheit.4203:

Answer the question, did you go 30 toughness as a Roamer with GS?

Ah, sorry. Yes I do. My build is 20/20/30. Traits 2,9/4,10/2,3,11.
I use berserkers amulet/jewel, runes of divinity
Utilities: Mending, bull’s charge, frenzy, endure pain, signet of rage.
Sigils of rage and intelligence on axe/shield (which i like better than mace shield tbh) and sigil of air on the GS.

It’s a good build overall, but in competitive matches it is far too easy to dodge everything. Plus it gets focused down really easily. It’s best role is as a fighter on Kyhlo at the mid point, because the point itself is so small that enemies have a hard time dodging you. In addition there is rarely a big teamfight there, in contrast to the Keep on Forest of Niflhel where you just get blown up even if the point is small.

sorrow.2364:

1) That’s true, they haven’t so much combo fields, just one with Longbow, but they have loads of combo finishers and combo finishers are way more useful than combo fields.

2) Warrior have an istant skill that grants stability, isn’t that enough? Again, I use Necomancers as example, they have no stability at all. The only stability they have is a 3 second stability when entering Death Shroud from a grandmaster trait of Soul Reaping.

3) Endure Pain is an awesome defensive skill some professions doesn’t even have one, also the Defense trait of Warrior is an awesome combo of Toughness and Healing power. Plus they have some blocking skills with their offhand weapons. I fell that stating that warrior defenses are subpar is pretty wrong.

1) Actually Warriors only have 1 blast finisher, one whirl finisher, and 1 leap finisher, in addition to the fact that they put no combo fields down. Compare that to an Elementalist bunker who can put down multiple combo fields AND finish them multiple times. Even a Guardian can put down multiple fields and finish them. Either way combo finishers aren’t useful if you have no combo fields!

2) The problem with balanced state is that it’s not a shout. The best bunker build (IMO) uses shouts to heal. If you give up one of your core heals, there’s no way you’re going to last as long. And comparing a bunker warrior to a necromancer is not the best comparison: their roles in battle are far different.

3) While endure pain is good, yes, it doesn’t synergize well with a bunker build. Again because it’s a stance and not a shout. In addition the lack of protection is 33% more damage taken at all times. That’s why they are subpar.

Honestly I don’t think a pure bunker Warrior is really that viable. However, like some have mentioned, a tanky-DPS warrior certain can work.The problem is getting it to fit in with the rest of the team.

Schwahrheit.4203:

Hammer can’t sustain? More like you fail to build a Warrior correctly whether its offensive-wise or defensive-wise, no offense. Would be nice if GW2 made a legit ELO system where it actually shows player skill. Then we’ll know whether whatever the guy is saying is legit.

P.S Just shows, everyone who calls Warrior a bad class have 3 simple trends going on for them.

1.) They do not have the decency to get good at this game.
2.) They probably don’t even play Warrior, yet they are still talking. Like just because you get wrecked by Thief 24/7, doesn’t mean Roam Warrior is worse than Thief. Seriously I bet this guy doesn’t know how to combo HB without Bulls Charge.
3.) They have zero clue on how to build. Bunker Warrior can’t sustain LMAO, just proves my point. Its a learn to play issue.

Keep talking though, I’d like to see Warrior get buffed. And then nerfed because that’s how this community is.

Feel free to disagree with me, but when you do at least give me reasons why. You say bunker Warrior can sustain, but you don’t tell me why they can. Here’s why I think they are not as good as the other bunker professions:

1) No combo fields.
Combo fields, if only used by yourself, are an essential component to any bunker build. For a Guardian, it gives group retaliation, and for the Elementalist, it gives group healing, chill armor, and swiftness. You can also stack 25 stacks of might (with the help of your teammates) before the game to give that edge in the first team fight.

2) Lack of stability.
The best source of stability for the warrior is balanced state. But that only gives warriors themselves stability. Plus it’s on a 40 second cooldown, 10 seconds longer than a Guardian’s Stand Your Ground, which is a far better skill, applying both stability and retaliation in an AoE. While a staff Elementalist also does not have group stability, they still have an edge with 2 sources of stability for themselves without having to sacrifice a key spell (which you would have to do to get balanced state)

3) Subpar damage mitigation
Compared to an Elementalist or a Guardian, the Warrior doesn’t have nearly as many options to mitigate damage. They have no internal source of protection, a key defensive boon, while Elementalists and Guardians have easy access to it. On top of that, the only immunity spell that a Warrior has is endure pain, which, if you take, removes a key heal and condition removal from your arsenal. While some Guardian builds do have immunity, almost every guardian runs with Sanctuary, which is essentially 6 seconds of not being hit. Hammer warriors are easily taken down in a 1v2 situation.

But if you have a build to show me that rectifies these problems, or a playstyle that avoids these issues, by all means prove me wrong. But mudslinging won’t get you anywhere.

As for Warrior roaming, yes I have played it. First with Axe/Shield and Greatsword, then with Mace/Shield and Greatsword. Warriors don’t get beat by Thieves very often, I never said that. The problem with Warriors is that their damage is too predictable, and they have little ways to disengage. For a Thief, if he goes to neutralize an undefended node, and 2 people fall back to stop him, he can just stealth away, effectively deterring the enemy and reducing their points. However a Warrior would be forced to engage them and then die. Sure a Warrior may last a few seconds longer in combat, but does that make them a better roaming profession? In my opinion, no.

Thanks for the thoughtful responses everyone! To respond to this:

Aga.8641:

You’ll hardly ever be able to spread the conditions, at least not in tornament play. Most fights will be 2vs2, and unless the 2 you are facing are both melee (which is very unlikely), or thye are very bad at positioning, the chances of hitting your epidemic are very slim.

I’m going to respectfully disagree with this. The way to conquest is set up, there will always be people on the point, trying to neutralize or prevent from being neutralized. The only exception really is Ranger. Epidemic has a rather large range on its spread, I think Necro is quite good in a 2v2 scenario.

Aga.8641:

I play necro as main, have done through-out all betas. You say condition control, and hint towards epidemic, which imo (and quite a few others) is a trash skill, and incredibly over-rated. Necro can get upto around 17 staks of bleed at a peak, and then maintain around 10-12. Compare this to rangers/thieves who can stack 20+ in a few seconds while also doing decent raw damage. However much I want to, I cannot see any role for a necro in the current meta, they offer nothing another class doesn’t do better.

The idea is that the necro is never alone. Paired with a bleedstack ranger and an engineer, you’ll spread 25stacks of bleeding, ~10 stacks of vulnerability, poison, and burning. Pretty good if you ask me. The necro’s role is a defensive roamer.

EDIT: However, you can always switch utilities if you find yourself in a 1v1 scenario.

Guardian: 7
The guardian is the flagship “bunker” role for a tournament team. I would say over 95% of teams run a defensive guardian on their team, whose sole goal is to sit on a point and keep it. They certainly excel at this role, and their ability to apply both retaliation and stability in an AoE make them super team fighters. However with the change to Tome of Courage, they are no longer able to win every team fight with the AoE full heal. Right now every team runs with a Guardian because they’re used to having one on the team, but I can see in the future a Guardian not necessarily being necessary. Hence the rating of 7.

Warrior: 4
I personally think the Warrior is the weakest tournament profession in the game right now, at least as a damage role. For a defensive role, a hammer Warrior shows some promise, but fails to bring the sustain of an Elementalist or a Guardian (even with shout heals). But back to a damage/roaming Warrior, their damage is far too predictable to be relied on in combat. And, unlike thieves, Warriors are unable to vanish when their burst skills are on cooldown. However, I have seen some promising axe builds not revolving around the greatsword, so hopefully the Warrior will learn some new tricks in the next few weeks.

Ranger: 5
Rangers are in a good spot right now. They have the ability to be high sustain damage or incredibly bursty. In fact they are the only profession that has reliable damage output. They have options for stability, mobility, and cc as well. Overall a versatile class, but lacking the exploitable mechanics to put them over the edge damage-wise. The pets are still slightly unresponsive, but much better than in the betas. Rangers are weak to thieves in a 1v1, but other than that can hold their own as any damage-based role on a team.

Engineer: 6
Most teams are running Engineers now, and for good reason. They feature good, sustained AoE damage, excellent knockbacks, and even high burst damage builds. Many options for swiftness make them excellent roamers. Some teams run Engineers as point defense, which I don’t think is better than a Guardian or an Elementalist, but still is viable. Also the Engineer Supply Crate is one of the better elite skills in the game. There are many different ways to play an Engineer with great success in tournaments right now.

Thief: 5
While Thief may be overpowered in 8v8s, they find an unusual role in tournament teams. Against some compositions, a Thief really shines. For example, I was watching a glass cannon Mesmer’s stream (professional level player) literally get 2 shot by a thief (12k backstab, 6k steal). However, against teams that run condition damage and toughness, a Thief may be next to useless. I know that on my condition damage Engineer, a Thief has no way to instantly kill me. In a sustained fight Thieves are quite weak. Overall, I think Thief is a niche pick based on your composition. They are strong, but once teams learn to counter them, they are balanced in 5v5.

Elementalist: 5
Had the Staff Elementalist build not been discovered a few days ago, I would have had Elementalist as the weakest current profession. However Elementalists have found a really nice role as a defensive/support role. It excels at roles like defending points 1v2 while waiting for help to arrive, killing enemy trebuchets without the opposition being able to do anything about it, and stability stomping. They are very strong on Khylo. On a side note I think that Scepter/dagger or dagger/dagger is not as strong as other roamers like Rangers, Thieves, or Engineers, but still viable.

Mesmer: 8
You’ll see pretty much every team run with a Mesmer currently. They are nearly unbeatable 1v1 (currently only Staff Ele or Trap Ranger can beat them somewhat consistently), and have so many different mechanics all within the same build. This includes stealth, blink, daze, invulnerability, target dropping, quickness, immobilize. Portal allows Mesmers to defend 2 points at once, with the team in tow. For the most part Mesmers have so much mitigation spells that they can afford to run glass cannon and get away from it. Mesmers excel at almost every role in the game.

Necromancer: 4
Honestly the Necromancer would have received a 5 had it not been for all the bugs in their current state. The Necromancer is one of the most difficult professions in the game, as well as one of the most underrated. While they have little option for power-based builds, they excel at condition control. Running on a condition-based team, the Necromancer is devastating. Overall, the Necromancer could use a little bit of love, but is still completely viable in competitive play.

Feel free to tell me what you think. I’ll try to keep up with this thread as best as I can.

Hello GW2 forum community. I main an engineer but have played every profession. You may know me in game as Rainbow Unicorn. (Henge of Denravi)

Before I start this balance thread, so you can see where I’m coming from, I’ll state my credentials. I am rank 26 and have over 200 hours played in sPvP. Most of those are tournaments. (BTW this thread is about 5v5 balance, 8v8 is and will continue to be unbalanced and zergy). As of this post I have 351 tournament games, and 304 tournament wins. Some of those games are with/against aspiring professional teams. I feel like my experience gives me some ability to render some judgment on class balance.

I feel like for the most part, 5v5 is balanced in an acceptable state. Obviously there are many things that need tweaking, and I will detail that in this thread, but there’s no completely broken strategy or comp. In fact even the top teams are just beginning to explore different strategies and class compositions.

Here’s the scale I will use. I will go through each profession, and give them a rating. The rating is 1-10, with 1 being completely useless, and 10 being brokenly overpowered. Then I will detail my thoughts about the profession. So let’s begin!

Qtin.6940:

So ? Any news ? This game is dying already…

I don’t think it is dying quite yet. I’d give it until Friday with no word from ArenaNet on sPvP, and people will start really getting fed up and simply leaving. Nothing is worse that getting told news is coming “very soon” and having to wait for it…

So apparently “very soon” means longer than 5 days?

When Colin said he was announcing the WvW blog soon, it only took 1 day to post info about it.

This all makes me sad panda