Guild Wars 2

04640 – LB/GS. I use this in normal PvP too. Dueling as well.

Thanks for that breakdown Zen. Would it then be safe to say that the reason the Ranger must ‘outskill’ their opponent is because the class simply wasn’t given the same tools and advantages other classes have? Or are you implying there’s something inherently more difficult about shooting a bow at 1200+ range or needing to control the pet?

Zord.6130:

This thread again

Dancing Face.4695:

not again pls. (the message lenght must be at least 15). not again pls.

My thoughts exactly. How many more times will this thread need to be discussed until real change can happen? The Ranger is outclassed in every role of value in WvW. Even Yak Slapping!

The game has been out for nearly 2 years now. Has the class ever had a reason to exist in all that time other than to soak up AE damage? The point of this thread isn’t to troll or try and convince the WvW community the class is useful. It’s not!

But what do players out there feel that WvW or the Ranger is missing that could be added to the class and keep it balanced and stay within the theme of the class?

While certainly not the only class with problems, the Ranger really has had quite a poor showing in WvW in the past 2 years.

Part of the problem is the pets and spirits are literally useless in WvW due to all the AE spam that exists. Pets and spirits account for the overwhelming majority of utility available on the class. That said, even if they weren’t useless, the utility is provided in such an awkward way it’s really of limited value anyway.

In the upcoming patch we’re really not seeing much improve for the class. A slight burst increase on a weapon that is still quite poor and completely ineffective without fully traiting it. Pet traits are no longer going to be species specific, but pets are useless in anything but roaming.

So I ask… what could ANet possibly do to make commanders want to include Rangers in their groups? What could they do for the class to earn them at least 1 spot on a 20v20 GvG?

The same two skills (and probably other pet buffs) do not gain any benefit from Concentration Training (+50% pet boon duration).

Regenerate (Fern Hound) seems to benefit.

Mighty Roar (Jungle Stalker), Furious Screen (Red Moa), and probably every other buff do not prioritize the ranger or the pet as the first targets to receive the buff.

Feel free to keep the pet off of the priority list since it would be a waste of the buff anyway.

Mighty Roar (Jungle Stalker), Furious Screech (Red Moa) and probably every other buff do not count the ranger nor the pet itself as one of the five targets that are first selected to receive the buff.

If possible, feel free to keep the pet itself off of the list of first targets.
Since pets are worthless (/grin).

Solandri.9640:

ilr.9675:

And after all that hoop jumping with 3400 base power …. I crit for a grand total of 1600 on the Sword’s highest damage attacks :p

Sword’s damage coefficient on its best attack (the kick) is 0.7. With 3400 power and an ascended sword, against 2400 armor you should be getting:

[950 to 1050] * 3400 * 0.7 / 2400 = 942 to 1041 base damage

If you’re running a berserker build (kinda have to be to get 3400 power), your crit damage should be around 100%. So your criticals will do 250% of base damage.

That means your sword should crit for 2355 to 2603 damage.

Are you sure your power is 3400? Power is the stat on the upper left of your hero sheet. The stat on the upper right is attack (power + weapon damage), which is a
meaningless stat because nothing in the game is based on power + weapon damage. If your power is 2400, then your crits will be around 1750.

And still only half of the DPS that a Warrior gets with barely any might, Exotic weaps, and NO fury.

Sword’s two other autoattacks have a damage coefficient of 0.6. So its damage and DPS are:

1100 * 3400 * (.6+.6+.7) / 2400 = 2692
crit damage = 6729
average damage (20% / 80%) = 5922
ranger DPS = 5922/1.8 = 3290

An ascended greatsword does 1045 to 1155 damage, or an average of 1100. Warrior 100 blades has a damage coefficient of 4.4 + 1.1, for a total of 5.5 over 3.5 sec. If we assume the same power, crit %, and crit damage as your ranger (even though that’s impossible – warrior precision and crit damage are in different trait lines so their berserker stats are always lower than a ranger’s),

1100 * 3400 * 5.5 / 2400 = 8571
crit damage = 21427
average damage (20% / 80%) = 188556
DPS = 18855.8 / 3.5 = 5387.4

Warrior’s GS autoattack skill coefficients are 0.7, 0.7, 0.9, and its cycle time is 2.44 sec. Damage and DPS are:

1100 * 3400 * (.7+.7+.9) / 2400 = 3584
Crit damage = 8960
Average damage (20% / 80%) = 7885
DPS = 7885 / 2.44 = 3231.6

100b’s cooldown is 8 sec, so you can squeeze in 3 autoattack cycles + 1 extra attack between each 100b.
110 * 3400 * [ 3*(.7+.7+.9) + .7 + 5.5 ] / 2400 = 20414
Crit damage = 51035
Average damage (20% / 80%) = 44911
warrior DPS = 44911 / (8 + 3.5) = 3905

In other words, a warrior with pow/pre/crit dam the same as the ranger (which is impossible) using an ascended greatsword should be dealing out only 19% more DPS than the ranger. If the pet is dead.

Warrior’s self-buffs are better, but they’re not that much better. A 25 might stack only gives +875 power, not the +3000 power you’d need to make warrior DPS twice ranger DPS as you claim.

Using your numbers:
Power (not attack): 3400
Crit Chance: 80%
Crit Damage: 100%

Warrior Axe Combo is 0.7 (x1) + 0.7 (x2) + 0.7(x2) + 1.5
DPS comes out to 4,134 (3.6 second cycle)

Throw in an Eviscerate that has an effective damage of 8,929 and a 10 second cooldown.

Should bring the warrior up to 4,540 DPS.

That’s ignoring any special bonus they get from trait skills, since I don’t play a warrior and don’t know them.

Bambula.3649:

even with rapidfire and vul your do better dps with auto atk

Math begs to differ.

Using the same gear, Long Range Shot has an effective damage of 1,517.599. Given the 1 second attack animation, that’s also the DPS.

The damage I listed in the skill rotation that included rapid fire is better.

I would be happy to update my calculations if you can provide some information why I am wrong.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

1) You need to include Barrage in that rotation.
2) Rapid Fire is worse than just auto-attacking at 1000+.

Barrage is great damage, yes. However, if someone stands in it for the full duration then you probably wouldn’t need to worry about your DPS against them anyway.

Rapid Fire is actually better than a max range auto attack. Without rapid fire, you would need to drop the effective damage I listed by 10% because you would no longer have that 10% vulnerability.

Here’s how I am calculating bleed with the gear I posted:
3 second base + 30% from traits + 10% from runes = 4.2 seconds
4 ticks of 54 damage totaling 216 damage

I simply added the flanking percentage of 216 to the total effective damage.

Sina.9208:

Can you pls calculate the Shortbow dmg with 8 stacks of bleed maintained with power gear? (that’s about normal for a flanking shortbow)

Using the same gear and numbers:
100% Flanking – 1,681.128 DPS
75% Flanking – 1,587.944 DPS
50% Flanking – 1,494.760 DPS
25% Flanking – 1,401.576 DPS (number I previously posted)

Just because I already had the auto-attack numbers:

Warrior Axe – Chop (Combo) – 2,079.056 DPS
Thief Dagger – Strike (Combo) – 2,469.400 DPS

Guess I will check into the pet’s DPS to get the total output of a Ranger.

Okay guys. I have done some more math to include skill rotations. This required me to use the skill’s effective damage and only calculate the DPS once I knew how long the skill rotation would take. So far, I have only calculated short bow and longbow numbers.

First up is short bow. I included the Sharpened Edges trait in the calculation. I used 108 (2 bleed ticks) * 66% application * 51% critical chance for an effective damage of 36.353 per shot. For poison volley, I assumed that only 3 of the 5 shots would land on the target. This would allow the addition of Sharpened Edges 3 times and a Poison duration of 7 seconds while calculating the effective damage.

SHORT BOW SKILLS
Crossfire – 717.335 effective damage
Poison Volley – 1,328.295 effective damage

SHORT BOW ROTATION
Crossfire (x14), Poison Volley (x1)
Total Delay – 8.113 seconds
Effective Damage – 11,370.988
DPS – 1,401.576

Now for the longbow. I increased the damage of long range shot to assume that you would always have the 10% vulnerability from rapid fire. I also increased the damage of rapid fire to include the additional 1% vulnerability from each consecutive shot. I included the Sharpened Edges trait too.

LONGBOW SKILLS
Long Range Shot (1000+) – 1,665.723 effective damage
Long Range Shot (500+) – 1,213.120 effective damage
Long Range Shot (0) – 941.559 effective damage
Rapid Fire – 6,813.120 effective damage

LONGBOW ROTATION
Long Range Shot (x8), Rapid Fire (x1)
Total Delay – 12.500 seconds

Effective Damage (1000+) – 20,138.906
DPS (1000+) – 1,611.112

Effective Damage (500+) – 16,518.083
DPS (500+) – 1,321.447

Effective Damage (0) – 14,345.589
DPS (0) – 1,147.647

Please feel free to multiply the final numbers by 1.10 if you’d like to include the 5% vulnerability from Remorseless and the 5% from Eagle Eye.

Terkov.4138:

Calculating longbow on medium range is just wrong. Noone normal would use it this way for longer than few secs before swapping weapon or gaining distance.

Also, I have to agree with Ars. Some weapons are more affected by traits than others (for example LB with remorseless). Skipping traits gives some results, but they aren’t any better than just reading tooltips.

Let’s assume for a second that you could keep the 5% vulnerability up 100% of the time. That would boost long range shot to 1,123 DPS. However, Hunter’s Shot, alone, does significantly less damage than a regular auto-attack. There is some damage loss. The shot also causes you to stop attacking and stealth. There is another damage loss. In the long run, I would argue that this is a detriment to your sustained damage.

I understand the utility of the skill is to stack vulnerabilities high and attempt to burst the target down. My calculations were focused only on constant damage per second.

I may attempt to get a rotation and spec for each weapon and try some additional math.

jcbroe.4329:

Good thread.

Just a question; at any point, when equipped with Eagle Eye (I know you weren’t quantifying traits to begin with, but Eagle Eye affects a single out-of-water weapon uniquely), does the longbow out DPS the shortbow?

My impression is that somewhere above 3000 attack, the longbow is capable of achieving the shortbow’s DPS with the use of rapid fire, and outdamaging it at 1000+ range. If this is the case, I’m assuming it’s because of the longbows better coefficients.

Just curious is all.

Eagle Eye would bring longbow to 1,123 DPS (however, you would then need to weigh the loss of Piercing Arrows or Spotter). Rapid fire also does more DPS than long range shot, so including that in the DPS rotation would be of benefit. As would the vulnerability stacks it applies.

Just as I would need to go back to short bow and include bleeds and poison to further enhance its DPS calculation.

I was merely trying to keep the calculations simple.

As to your other point about the coefficient, I’d argue that short bow has a higher coefficient because of the attack speed. You are getting that 40% of power almost twice in the same second it took for the longbow. Mathematically, short bow would have a 0.77 coefficient if it took 1 second per attack.

Ars Valde.8693:

Zanzer.6450:

Ars Valde.8693:

Zanzer.6450:

The calculations do not account for any traits that improve damage, as it would simply increase each weapon equally.

This isn’t true and the DPS calculations are worthless without it. Builds are entirely geared around traits and specing them for things like being able to add vulnerable with a quick stealth shot or anything else, this entire calculation has no actual meaning in real time play.

tl;dr: checking base damage without using a build is pointless. It tells you nothing of what the weapon can actually do, since none of us run around with no traits.

+10% damage increases every weapon by 10%, thereby making it meaningless to include in the comparison.

Except trait lines and gear influence damage too. 10% Damage boost to the shortbow matters much least because it’s a condi geared spec and Conditions don’t benefit from the flat boost, the same that Sword doesn’t benefit from specing deep into the precision tree since the added DPS from the Condi boost is nearly worthless. 10% Damage buff is not the same for every weapon.

The calculations were considering a power spec. They also show that short bow is heavily dependent upon power gear as it outperforms longbow without ever considering the bleed. Sword too heavily benefits from power and critical as it is the ranger’s strongest weapon for direct damage.

Ars Valde.8693:

Zanzer.6450:

The calculations do not account for any traits that improve damage, as it would simply increase each weapon equally.

This isn’t true and the DPS calculations are worthless without it. Builds are entirely geared around traits and specing them for things like being able to add vulnerable with a quick stealth shot or anything else, this entire calculation has no actual meaning in real time play.

tl;dr: checking base damage without using a build is pointless. It tells you nothing of what the weapon can actually do, since none of us run around with no traits.

+10% damage increases every weapon by 10%, thereby making it meaningless to include in the comparison.

Yes. Considering the melee attacks cleave and the arrows could pierce, I only accounted for a single target.

Including only the Short Bow flanking bleed, the DPS would increase to 1,260.

I didn’t include the bleed on critical because that would effect each weapon’s DPS.

My only issue with counting the bleed is that I would not necessarily know how to quantify it. I would just give it an effectiveness of 25% because it may not be common that you will be flanking your target. The bleed on critical is a little more straight forward, as it is simply 66% of your critical chance.

Then comes how to include it in DPS. Do you simply take the entire damage that the bleed stack will eventually do and include that as a single second’s worth of damage? Eventually, if all goes perfectly, you will have that number of stacks on the target and they will, in fact, be taking that amount of damage per second.

I felt it would be unfair to include this fuzzy math in the comparison of the other weapons.

Hello all. I decided to take a moment and throw together some numbers on the ranger and examine the various weapon choices. I made some general assumptions and ignored certain variables, so these numbers are, of course, not perfect. I would just like to get the community’s thoughts, as I am using these calculations to determine my final gear layout.

I will start off by stating that I examined each weapon’s observed attack speed. I loaded up some videos and counted the precise milliseconds between each of the various auto attack animations. Below are my findings.

Short Bow – Crossfire – 0.52 seconds
Longbow – Long Range Shot – 1.00 second
Sword – Slash (Full Combo) – 1.79 seconds
Axe – Ricochet – 1.07 seconds
Great Sword – Slash (Full Combo) – 2.55 seconds

I used the power coefficients found on the Wiki. Below are the calculations I used for each weapon. I believe it is the same one floating around the forums and various other sites.

Weapon Strength = (Weapon Minimum Damage + Weapon Maximum Damage) / 2
Base Damage = Weapon Strength * Power * Coefficient / Target’s Armor
Critical Damage = Base Damage * (1.5 + Critical Damage Multiplier)
Effective Damage = (Base Damage * (1 – Critical Chance) + (Critical Damage * Critical Chance)
Damage Per Second = Effective Damage / Attack Speed

I selected the following gear layout to simply maximize damage and determine each weapon’s DPS.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQJAVVnAVkFchFWVwaZgY9gQBaQNFaq/MFGiRA-jUCBYfBioIQJPMasJSAlhFRjVXDT5iIq2ebIaWepGA-w

I only factored in each weapon’s auto attack damage because most of the ranger’s weapon skills are utility and produce lower damage anyway. For short bow, I ignored the weapon’s bleed damage. For longbow, I used the medium range coefficient (0.65). For each weapon, I assumed only a single target that had 2600 armor. The calculations do not account for any traits that improve damage, as it would simply increase each weapon equally. Below are my findings.

Short Bow – Crossfire – 1,206 DPS
Longbow – Long Range Shot – 1,070 DPS
Sword – Slash (Full Combo) – 1,664 DPS
Axe – Ricochet – 700 DPS
Great Sword – Slash (Full Combo) – 1,183 DPS