Showing Posts For andytango.2950:
And in your collective T1 opinions, which server had more fun fights?
The playerbase is too small for an esport. PvP must become free to play for esports to even be a possibility.
You do realize dota and league aren’t the only esport games?
An esport needs to be large enough so somebody who doesn’t even play the genre knows the game.
1) LoL – free to play
2) Dota – free to play
3) World of tanks – free to play
4) SC2 – $35The only one not free to play is sc2, which already had enough of a following from brood war to support a buy to play game. Note that dota and lol came after starcraft, but have more viewers and players.
My friends can say “play lol with me, just a 30 min download.”
I must say “pay $40 for a game you might not like to play pvp with me.”Thank you for confirming there are only 4 esport games ever out. Very good sample bias. So much for counter strike, street fighter, Warcraft 3, etc. I’m trying to show you it isn’t a requirement to become an esport.
Making the pvp portion of the game f2p won’t suddenly make this game esports. There is a reason the pvp portion of this game is small and it’s not because of the reasons you listed
Actually, I think with the new generation of esports, accessibility is a huge part to becoming a legitimate esport. F2P is definitely a big factor to this. However, I don’t think this needs to be addressed yet since we already have a big potential competitive population. Perhaps in the future, Arenanet could consider switching or opening F2P servers, but I don’t think it is integral to Arenanet’s decision-making in their current position. They don’t even have a gametype that is suitable for esports yet!
The biggest problem is that MMOs need to cater a broad audience. Focussing primarely on pvp would be too big of a risk for them to take.
I think balance in GW2 is actually relatively good compared to wow. The main negative i can come up with is that some professions require next to no effort to be succesfull, while others are on par or more difficult to play than anything youll find in wow.
So winning in skirmishes is often done with relatively cheap tactics (esp if you look at skyhammer) where it would be ideal if kills etc needed some setup.
That ^
Yes, that statement is the truism of MMOs. However, I personally think that in this new era where video games have the opportunity to earn another aspect of legitimacy through the blossoming mainstream interest in competitive gaming, GW2 is uniquely placed to offer a good competitive game for viewers to enjoy. I think it would be folly for Arenanet to give up on their position so easily.
That is not to say that PvE will not remain the bread and butter of GW2. PvE will always be the drawcard for new gamers and casuals who are the lifeblood of MMOs. However, GW2 can also be entrenched as a popular game through its competitive scene in a way that PvE alone cannot bring – not anymore. Every single MMO since WoW has shown this. Arenanet cannot follow the same formula and hope that the trend of the last decade will continue into the future, especially when the new gaming trend has already shown itself to be esports.
WvW is probably the best endgame that GW2 has to offer because its content is primarily player-driven. Arenanet can definitely improve its PvE aspects, but it already has a huge pool of interested players to take WvW to the next competitive step – structured GvG. Make a map or gametype with specific objectives for a 15v15 for example. This objective should not be the current castle/keep style because it is boring for the viewer to watch since it encourages defence, split push and less confrontation. The dominion-style can work if there are limited objectives (2-3) such that it encourages confrontation.
On an additional note, one mistake that a lot of developers make is introducing a lot of map-specific gimmicks like special equipment (e.g. arrow carts, ballistas) into a deathmatch gametype. This is what Blizzard did with destructible rocks, watchtowers and gold mineral fields in SC2 and they have arguably not helped its viewability. Instead, the game flow should primarily be dictated by the players themselves, with the developer’s input into less intrusive additions like terrain.
@Morinmeth
Again, you missed the point.
You don’t have to care about there being 40 people on stage. That is not something to worry about now, nor is it certain that this problem will ever eventuate. When you have a business strategy, you have an overall concept, but you don’t go worrying about a specific problem that may or may not eventuate in the future. That’s how you don’t get anything done. Take that as a life tip.
Arenanet has a simple task at hand. Make an enjoyable and accessible game mode for the majority of the playerbase that is preferrably unique to GW2. That is the GvG. You’re right in that you don’t see individual play as much as in PvP. That is obvious. That is the nature of the gametype. That is why it is forgiving for casuals to get into in the first place. However, as players get more competitive, you will start seeing strategies and tactics for the entire 20-man team or 10-man team or w/e the team size is. You will also see specific plays by individuals who do something out of the ordinary, that have specific importance for that gametype.
It is a given that you don’t have the same focus in GvG as in PvP. That doesn’t discredit it as a competitive gametype, nor does it discredit it as a potential esport. What it does do is provide a more forgiving environment for players and guilds to get into the competitive scene, and offer something different to the esport fans who already see enough individual skills in LoL, Dota 2 and SC2. If they instead want to see some major battles with pseudo-realistic formations and tactis, they can watch GW2.
That allows GW2 to pioneer a niche of their own and monopolise it. WoW tried PvP esports and failed horribly. I’d argue no MMO is placed to do well as an esport by focusing on PvP, since no matter what, MMOs do not have the best framework to showcase individual skill. Teamwork, teamcomps, team strategies, team execution, however, is the unique advantage of MMOs.
Don’t worry about 40-man stages. If GW2 GvG ever became popular, it doesn’t need LANs in the first instance. There can be a world season with 20 invited/qualified teams – 10 from EU, 10 from NA, and matches throughout the season spread through the week, casted by dedicated teams. Why does there have to be a LAN? Conversely, why not 40 computers? If it’s an event at Gamescom or an annual event, e.g. the finals of the season, why not 40 computers? If it’s for publicity and it is worth it, 40 computers is a piece of cake.
Worrying about the 40-man stage now is a ridiculous misallocation of resources. There are many ways to solve in the future, and many that are not yet apparent until further developments. They just need to create the gametype and do it right and people will make it happen.
no, the game’s balance is horrible
Balance can always be fixed, and balance depends on the metagame and the gametype.
Implement a fun and approachable gametype and balance will come after. We may even get innovations and revolutions in teamcomp and build usage, so balance is a very minimal consideration at this stage.
The problem with your post is that you’re assuming that we need to follow someone else. GW2 is perfectly placed as a pioneer because 1. it offers one of the best combat systems of all MMOs to date 2. it is graphically approachable 3. it is still one of the most popular AAA titles out there.
That, in itself, means that GW2 has the playerbase and the potential viewerbase to break into esports. All it needs is a fun and approachable gametype and more support from Arenanet to streamers and players alike.
GW2 doesn’t have to follow WoW. If GW2 could learn from one title, it would actually be LoL. If Arenanet had Riot’s PR ability and Riot’s focus on intuitive and approachable gameplay, they would already have succeeded as an “esport”. The term is all relative, however, but I believe GW2 players can be as popular as SC2 players if this was done from the beginning. LoL’s popularity is unapproachable for any modern MMO given its accessibility in all aspects, but GW2 can offer something else – the GvG.
Have you watched Ragnarok Online’s GvGs back in the day? Even on private servers in the later years, WPE, Nabz, Beastmode, Finale, CoT and more were all fantastic guilds in their relative primes. While a large GvG format may not make it as a monetary esport, it can bring so much attention to GW2’s competitive scene, enough to give Arenanet a platform to constantly improve and revamp their game like Riot is doing with LoL, and allow the game to go strong for a decade.
Edit: To add to this, WoW’s competitive games are boring as hell to the average spectator. MMOs need the “massive” component for it to be interesting. There is not enough interesting skill variety and skill level difference in MMOs and the camera angle does not do it any favours either. Perhaps a spectator camera angle should be implemented if the competitive scene ever does becomes popular.
(edited by andytango.2950)
Honestly, GvG has a huge advantage over PvP for GW2.
1. It is quite unique in the MMO scene
2. It is unique in the streaming scene
3. It is accessible to more players (since WvW is a low pressure environment to begin)
4. It is more interesting. Skills in GW2, especially with the camera angles, are not that interesting. With a 20v20 GvG with an objective focus, there can be a lot of innovations in the metagame.
5. It caters to a huge demand of the playerbase for guilds to mean more than a social hub.How do you host 40 people and 40 desks with computers on them, on a scene, in front of a crowd?
Also, I don’t think 20v20 GvG is viewer-friendly. Maybe 10v10 could do it, but 20v20 looks like a big cluster of people marching, in my opinion. I know the tactics behind it can be pretty intense, but it has to look intense, not just be there, hidden underneath 20 norns in heavy armor.
You missed the point.
Arenanet and GW2 has already missed the opportunity to ESPORT their game like Blizzard did with SC2, i.e. brute-force market and creating tournaments to make an esport out of it. That is not sustainable nor a suitable option for Arenanet – a much smaller company. GW2 can only become an esport by having first of all, a burgeoning competitive scene. To have a competitive scene, it needs a fun gametype with less pressure on people to join in and have a try – yet have a skill curve that isn’t one dimensional. Both of these criteria eliminate sPvP from the immediate possibility of an sPvP esport scene. GvG is perhaps the best candidate since most player already have had a taste from WvW. It can be 10v10 or 20v20 or 15v15 – it only matters which is more fun and involves enough strategy as well as skill for spectators to care about. Don’t worry about the 40 computers and 40 plane tickets – we aren’t even close to that stage yet! They need this game to be enjoyable to play and watch and become big on twitch.tv.
Honestly, GvG has a huge advantage over PvP for GW2.
1. It is quite unique in the MMO scene
2. It is unique in the streaming scene
3. It is accessible to more players (since WvW is a low pressure environment to begin)
4. It is more interesting. Skills in GW2, especially with the camera angles, are not that interesting. With a 20v20 GvG with an objective focus, there can be a lot of innovations in the metagame.
5. It caters to a huge demand of the playerbase for guilds to mean more than a social hub.
GW2 is probably the most suitable modern MMO to become an esport and Arenanet is letting a huge opportunity slip past if they don’t try to make a push for it. They have gone about it the wrong way so far. sPvP must be the basis of the esport, and Dominion-style capture matches are not the way to go. Furthermore, the focus must be on player-brands and caster-brands to begin with. If Arenanet had regular tournaments for lucrative in-game rewards (that is, gems, not skins and PvE rewards which most competitive players don’t give a crap about), then that would help publicise its PvP scene, especially if it streamed and commentated the matches themselves.
For an esport to be born, firstly, there must be a competitive game type that is fun to play and attracts a lot of players. Players naturally have varying skill levels, so for the game mode to be skill-dependent is almost an automatic process. Arenanet needs to focus on making it fun to play, fun to watch and intuitive to understand for new people. sPvP has always been the neglected aspect of GW2, but ironically, it could be the foundation for GW2’s popularity to last a decade.
That is not to say that PvE or WvW is unimportant, but sPvP can be the gametype that attracts a whole new market to GW2. While the MMO crowd will chase after PvE, it is a stale gametype for most competitive players, and there will always be new MMOs with new PvE. WvW will always be popular as it is a competitive environment with very little consequence for individual mistakes, i.e. it is low pressure.
As an alternative, Arenanet could also focus on the GvG scene by including it as a new gametype. After all, GW2 is known as “Guild Wars 2”. This is a unique aspect to GW2 (and games like Ragnarok Online before it), and it is definitely very interesting to watch for a much larger playing base. While this may not become an esport (since paying 20 members a prize is hard to balance between reward and cost), it can foster a unique aspect of GW2 to grow in this new Twitch.tv era which has no equivalent.
Having thought about it, I’d say GvG is the way to go. If it becomes popular, then we can think about legitimising it as an esport and pay-outs.
This is actually not such a difficult problem to fairly address for everyone involved. They can scale the PPT pool to the population of either WvW players in total at any given moment in time or to the population of the WvW players on the least populated server depending on Arenanet’s adopted policy. The first option still gives significant advantages to coverage whereas the second option give much less. In any case, all players are still important and the PPT more accurately reflects the skill and performance of all participants.
That is, when all servers are queued, PPT will run as it does normally. When the lowest populated server (at the time) is only half populated the PPT tick is halved in magnitude. The servers with better coverage still have an advantage but it lessens the impact of coverage compared with performance. The PPT pool can be updated at the same time as PPT ticks are updated but is set in advance for the next tick period. Further, it doesn’t completely allow servers to deliberately tank their performance to affect the PPT pool and I think this system should be allowed the benefit of the doubt. Otherwise a floating average figure of a set time interval (e.g. 1 hour) can be used to smooth population fluctuations.
Having any absolutes or arbitrary caps has too many artificially set conditions. This system is more natural and is a softer intervention to a system that isn’t as bad as the forum warriors pretend it is.
(edited by andytango.2950)
All these things about making the current content better will satisfy its current playerbase, which although important, won’t be enough for GW2 to become much more popular than it is already.
Game developers who only focus on the game these days will not have the same success as those who spend resources improving its brand and exposure as well, with a business model that caters to it.
Guys, 100 tries is actually a decent sample. Getting only 15% shows that he is either extremely unlucky or the 40% chance isn’t what it seems to mean.
I was actually going to make a massive post about what ANet could do a couple weeks ago but never got around to it.
First of all, the payment model:
GW2 has amazing content and value for money, but B2P is still a major hurdle for primarily F2P players (i.e. carrot is nice, but high barrier of entry) and it is also an insufficient incentive to keep primarily subscription-based players (it seems a paradox, but there is not enough stick to keep the donkey going – psychologically, it makes sense).
Therefore, ANet could change the payment method to F2P/cash shop, which will see a massive increase in playerbase, especially in non-NA/EU and other OECD regions. Of course, this will alienate its current players, but ANet has the option of making F2P servers and regions and give the option of transfers. F2P servers, must of course, have a more expensive cash shop and certain appropriate restrictions. Later, ANet can always merge the payment models but the furor would’ve died down significantly by then.
Second, ANet needs to embrace E-Sports:
This is one of the fastest rising markets out there, and if ANet opens F2P servers, it will be one of the best placed companies to jump in. They need to learn from Riot and Valve and not Blizzard. They need to focus on making the game fun, rather than trying to shove ESPORT and USA!USA!USA! down our throats like Blizzard tried with SC2 and failed. That is, it needs to have enough variety in content to satisfy all demographics. They don’t have the luxury of making a MOBA and just catering to one spectrum of players, they have to attract and engage computer illiterate casuals, young kids, old guys, ESPORTS believers, raiders, explorers, PvPers, guilds and everyone in between.
A second focus should be on giving the community’s streamers and player exposure to the rest of the community and those beyond it. They can incorporate a frozen stream on their loading client for featured streams, their official stream or the no.1 current twitch stream. ANet has already screwed up by giving focus to casters and commentators, but that medium has lone gone – that was the day of youtube. Today is the day of twitch. Players need to build their own brands, and build GW2’s at the same time – casters should only have the same support as players. ANet has to engage the community more and in different mediums. They can run a weekly video show with charismatic hosts, etc, etc.
Third, ANet has to organise things for the community a la Riot’s LCS and World Championships, Valve’s The International and Blizzard’s Blizzcon. ANet has to show that they are a big boy too and that they deserve people’s attention. If they don’t do it within the next calendar year, they will lose their current opportunity – that of the best AAA MMO on the market – to do so. Ditch expansions, and go for an annual huge update DLC that is unveiled in a huge GW2 event held by ANet every year, complete with cosplayers, some form of live entertainment, computer booths and, very importantly, an esport event with decent cash prize.
Riot has already shown us the future of customer service for video game companies, and it’s time to take that and go beyond. As big as Riot’s playerbase is, they cannot actually be making that much money (even with 20m accounts, not players, each spending $5, which I doubt, they will have revenue of $100m, which isn’t that much for a company of their exposure – they just know how to make people think they are bigger than they are and the importance of that – their brand is worth billions easily). Riot believes in their product as a sustainable, long-term product that engages the mainstream and are reinvesting heavily in it. ANet needs to show that confidence, even if the scale is smaller. GW2’s graphics and playing style is both classic and modern and it definitely has staying power. Its constant DLC model alone is groundbreaking. It just needs a better thought out cash shop, some visual upgrades in a couple years, and the above that I have mentioned.
So, this wasn’t a very well organised post – I just did it on the fly, but this is what my entrepreneurial instincts are telling me about ANet’s market position right now.