Guild Wars 2

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Ehecatl.9172:

In one of the books there’s a scene of a norn physically overpowering three charr at once using a bar bench.

To be fair, that particular norn was renowned for being absurdly strong even for her race, and those particular charr were Ash Legion. It’s definitely canon that the average norn is stronger than the average charr, but pinning three at once is not a normal occurrence.

This, each time those arguments are coming whitout any context and made generalities, i’ts like the ""1 norn = 1 warband"" that is far stretched from MoTW “warbands and smaller raiding parties could not overcome the individual strength of the Norn”

Burnzerker is still on top of condi dps

Danikat.8537:

I could actually see the charr being more inclined towards homophobia than other races because their attitude towards romantic relationships seems to be mainly practical.

A male and female charr will form a partnership in order to have cubs, which contributes more ‘soldiers’ to the Legions. Whereas a homosexual couple is never going to have kids (and wouldn’t even adopt since charr cubs are raised by the fahrar) so they’re not benefiting anyone except themselves.

On the other hand they do encourage and value strong social relationships, especially within warbands and legions. So maybe in that context they would be in favour of romantic relationships with either sex.

But this is all speculation on my part since it’s never discussed in-game.

This is what I’ve always thought. Charr don’t really care with romance, so it would be very egocentric for a charr to be homosexual because he will not help his legion on his natural duty , making homosexual Charr a shame for their warband/legion.

Hi, patch notes say that :“Previously purchased boosters will still work.”, but the karma booster is no longer selectable from the Enchanted Reward Boost.

Bearhugger.4326:

I hope it’s the torch but it’s probably going to be something lame and completely un-warrior like pistol or dagger.

Torch is lame (on par with focus) , gw2 warrior aren’t knight, a pistol or a dagger would suit well better.

I will become a SAD warrior ( strenght, arms and discipline)

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/367sr8/lions_arch_exploratory_report_50_the_mysterious/ =)

the same, crash at char selection.

Kyllen.9581:

Harper.4173:

Also humans have and had siege engines – machines of war – we see them in GW1 and we see them in GW2.

As far as I know the Norn have no such siege weaponry since they’re usually out there hunting and doing single combat not complex assaults or sieges.

Norns doesnt need siege weapons. They are siege weapons. Viz http://votn.enjin.com/forum/m/14098713/viewthread/13828701-calculating-norns-weight. Just imagine charging norn with plate armor…

no need to those speculative maths : https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7407/14206089633_970a95a37f_o.jpg

(with this you can have the true ratio)

Dawnbreaker.6215:

If that held any truth, and humans were weaker than other races based on size, then they would have not conquered Tyria, let alone the Charr. Heck, if they were like real life, medieval humans, they would have been wiped out a long time ago.

When Humans have settled in Tyria, the six Gods did pretty much all the job. That’s why now those gods have disappeared, the human civilisation is declining.

Elorna.5329:

Phalanx builds in PvE don’t use fast hands, and won’t be using it after the trait rework either. After the rework phalanx will pretty much phase out the other gs/axe-mace build that is currently the only meta PvE build using fast hands.

Both pve meta build use fast hand (65003 for gs/axma and 05063 for phx).
I really begin to think than most of the people in this topic who doesn’t want fast hand baseline doesn’t even play warrior….

My main is male Charr, and 6/8 of my chars are male. I’ve actually made 2 female for lore reason ( wife of an other char ).
I’m myself a male, and when I play a MMO I want to identified myself in my character, so my mains are always males.

Rednik.3809:

I just leave it here.

? A joke about a possible misunderstanding .

Valmir.4590:

I actually prefer it (in French) over Paragon/Parangon.

Yes , in french “Draconnier” is really catchy, a mix between “Dragon” & “Braconnier” ( = poacher).

Leo G.4501:

You do realize you’re making assumptions, right? There hasn’t been word of how their society would view homosexuality as if had not been officially started nor word of it in lore unless I missed the mention of it. You’re just projecting human ideals on social and cultural issues that may be viewed differently from their point of view.

Actually, I try to exactly use the Charr point of view. Charrs live for the legions, so anything of their life tend to follow the purpose of the legion which they belong.
It’s all about assumptions, because Anet never said anything related to the Charr’s sexuality.

Erukk.1408:

When the time comes for a gay Charr to do their duty to their Legion and produce cubs, and they do it, how would that be frowned upon and be considered counterproductive? Just because they might be gay, that doesn’t mean a gay male couldn’t sleep with a female (or visa versa) if he felt he needed to for some greater cause he believed it.

How are they not Charr anymore? They left their nation and culture, but they can’t leave their species. Whether or not you’re in a Legion, if you’re a furry cat person with four ears, you’re a Charr.

If anything, some Charrs could be bisexual, because like animals, they are most led by their instinct. So even if some would have physical relation with the same gender, they would still feel the need to mate with opposite sex for reproduction.

I never said they weren’t Charr anymore, I said that they would not be representative of the Charr , since they are deviant ( in the societal and cultural way).

Erukk.1408:

The Charr’s culture might be more inclined to short-term relationships and military advancement, but doesn’t mean long term relationships don’t happen though. They’re just rarer. Breeding falls under this as well. It’s a duty on their part to populate the Legions, but that still doesn’t stop physical and/or romantic relationships (both hetero and homosexual) from happening in the ranks. They aren’t mindless or sexless drones in-between breedings after all.

The Charr living outside of the Legions are still representative of the race. They are still Charr. They are just living outside of the Legion’s culture.

There is some romantic relations , but they are few. A homosexual charr would be frowned on because it is counterproductive for his legion . You shouldn’t see them with a human specter of view.

The Charrs who do no follow any legion are deviant and no representative. Even the Charrs in the Pact ( and the order ) belong to a legion.

Leo G.4501:

Well, even the Spartans likely participated in homoerotic activities (am going on 2nd hand research). Being militaristic doesn’t make anything less likely. Since Charr are not monogamous and do have relations for pleasure, it might make it just as likely as heterosexual relations.

The greeks weren’t homosexual, they were pederast. The spartan army were only composed with male, unlike charr . So no, the Spartans and Thebans are no way representative of what could be the Charr society.

Erukk.1408:

That’s half true I guess. The Charr still have relationships, but they are usually more casual and/or take a back seat to their military career. So if there are homosexual Charr in the Legions, I’m sure at some point of their lives they would probably “do their duty” as it were before going back to whatever possibly relationship they had before hand.

There is also the fact that not all Charr are part of the Legions. Those that live in let’s say Lion’s Arch or as adventurers would be able to have whatever type of relationship they would prefer.

Charr’s culture is more about short-terms relationships due to their militaristic life, and it is frowned to have inter-warband relation. Breeding is a duty to fulfil the legion with a new generation of soldiers more than for “social or romance”.

Outsiders living in LA or in anywhere else can, but they aren’t reprensentative : they left their family ( warband = charr’s family ) and are even at a lower rank than a gladium ( the lowest rank in legion ) since they quit the legions.

Leo G.4501:

Argon.1563:

For all we know, Rytlock could be gay, which is why he hasn’t had any cubs despite being a slightly older Charr

Isn’t he the only one that knew Eir had a son? Maybe he just doesn’t put much emphasis on having children and he, in fact, had sired at least half a dozen cubs but just never bothers to speak of it (like most Charr end up doing…unless something comes up and you end up having to kill your cub/be saved by your cub to which THEN it’s brought up).

But you could be right. With his position and prowess, he could have any female he wants. Still probably wouldn’t bother bringing it up if he had and a gay (male!) Charr is something I don’t know how would take place…I mean, I know how it’d work but don’t know how any sort of hinting would occur.

If there is at least, one race that should be exclusive heterosexual, it is the Charrs. Because they aren’t like human or sylvari with all the romance and those things. Charrs are a militaristic race, if they mate, it is to make new cubs for the legions.

Lindelle.3718:

Brother Dulfite.5793:

Our skills, as a individual character, is a joke compared to the eternal dragons. It makes a Lot more sense , logically, that we would use a super weapon to kill them.

Unless youre a norn who can knock out a tooth!

Asgeir was helped by all the Spirit and had the most powerful Jotun artefact with him.

charr animations are more brutal and fit so much better for a warrior .

Jordo.5913:

not only was this patch short as hell after a promising start to the to the 2nd half of season 2, which I hoped could continue…..

it didn’t answer any questions, just gave us more of them

and it didn’t include a single part about the Rytlock teaser

this game is driving me insane

In the first mission dialogue with the Destiny’s Edge, we say that if Rytlock didn’t come back before the attack on Mordremoth, we are going to pick him.

Ehecatl.9172:

The problem is we have pretty solid evidence that the norn outclass the charr at their own game by a fairly significant degree.

Source ? And if by “their own game” you mean war you should know that for war Charr > Norn.

Dustfinger.9510:

arthurobenzi.2619:

" three charr pushing" , she actually prove she was stronger but it wasn’t really a fight, just a “who can push the harder”.

they were trying to kill her and she subdued all three with nothing but a bench and raw strength. It wasn’t just a pushing contest because they were trying to kill her. The same way they were trying to kill the rest of the council. If anyone else from any other race had done it, it would have been considered evidence of their fighting prowess.

I’m sorry if my sentence wasn’t very clear, by fight I don’t mean the situation, but how it is done.

Dustfinger.9510:

Lone norn are against compared against warbands later on. “Occasionally, a warband (or a Norn hunter) might cross the line into the other’s land, only to be cut down without prejudice”

Norn aren’t organized. So any warband that would get cut down would be by whatever wandering norn happens upon them.

We have quite a bit of lore confirmed. Norn are known for solo fighting. They train since childhood for heroics and they have super strength. they are a race of super heroes. Charr train since childhood to work in groups. They don’t have the strength of the norn and we know of no inherent advantage that they have over the norn. Not even teeth and claws.

We have the same type of lore concerning solo humans against solo charr but for obvious reasons, there is no question about which would tend to win. Even though we have incidents of humans winning.

“Occasionally, a warband (or a Norn hunter) might cross the line into the other’s land, only to be cut down without prejudice”
This don’t mean than a Norn Hunter=a warband , but than the norn travels alone and the charr in warband. But in the example of MotW, it’s about charr who attack the norn ( and by extension the norns villages).
Further, you can’t erase the teeth and claws from the charr capacities :
-“the mouth filled with prominent sharp teeth suited for their carnivorous diet”
- “The charr have a set of sharp claws which can be used as knives for general tasks but it appears the charr tend to favour weapons when fighting.”
This is an advantage, in any case. The kind of advantage who can be use to end a fight.

Dustfinger.9510:

arthurobenzi.2619:

It’s not because it happened a very few times and with special conditions, than it is lore-stated , common or prove.
And Captain Heda used a “heavy oak bench” to repulse them. If you read it again she didn’t beated them , because this wasn’t a fight, but a ratio of strenght to strenght ( and more than this we didn’t know who were these charr).
Further, this is like that in all the examples of norn vs warband, the norn throws them, repulses them or what you want, but they actually didn’t beat them.

Captain Heda picked up the closest thing she had which happened to be a bench. And she definitlt beat them since we know that these charr were battle hardened (like all charr), experience fighters who ambushed the council. Tell me how this is not beating them, the charr were armed, out to kill and she pinned all three armed charr against the wall rendering them helpless with a bench. that sounds pretty decisive to me. And it defintily sounds like a fight.

Show Spoiler

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“To the side, Captain Heda took om three charr at once. She’s picked up a heavy oak bench, her arms rippling with massive strength beneath the softness of her chubby body. When all three charged her, Hedda set her feet and held the bench crosswise in front of her chest, setting her entire weight against it. Even with all three charr pushing as hard as they could, the buxom norn woman walked forwar step by step, shoving them back with each stride. When she reached the edge of the pavilion, Hedda gave a roar and slammed the bench back even farther, pinning all three squirming soldiers against the wall.”

edit: also, the events of the MotW aren’t too special since that was the general outcome of the attacks. It is lore stated and it is proven to have happened. Nothing about either of those accounts indicates that it was special or an exception.

" three charr pushing" , she actually prove she was stronger but it wasn’t really a fight, just a “who can push the harder”.
For MotW ,
“warbands and smaller raiding parties could not overcome the individual strength of the Norn”
it’s sound more like if the organisation of the warband is not sufficient to overcome the strenght of the norn whith their disorganized army/society. The sentence is too ambiguous to make only one transcription. With this, we go back to my previous conclusion, because this thread is not about who is stronger ( the norn) but “Who would win in a fight a Charr or Norn”. This would be a tough battle,for example :

In the Ghosts of Ascalon there is Gullik Oddsson, who is getting beaten up by a female Charr Ember Doomforge quite badly.

The problem with this topic is that there is no lore-stated about. All is about theorycrafting and puzzle.

It’s not because it happened a very few times and with special conditions, than it is lore-stated , common or prove.
And Captain Heda used a “heavy oak bench” to repulse them. If you read it again she didn’t beated them , because this wasn’t a fight, but a ratio of strenght to strenght ( and more than this we didn’t know who were these charr).
Further, this is like that in all the examples of norn vs warband, the norn throws them, repulses them or what you want, but they actually didn’t beat them.

Grok Krog.9581:

Pretty sure it’s been stated in lore that a single Norn can take on a whole Warband of Charr

Nope, nowhere.

As a Charr player you are also a “free agent”.

Kalavier.1097:

Also, if you argue for using a top tier, best of the best blood legion warrior in this matchup of Norn vs Charr…

Then you gotta argue top of the line, best of the best Norn warrior as well.

? the norn was also a “top tier”, this is why I said it can’t balance with a small ash warband . I’m sorry, I don’t know if you misunderstood my past post, or if I misunderstood this post .

Dustfinger.9510:

arthurobenzi.2619:

What ? I never talk about top tier warband, but top tier charr of blood legion. By this I mean like a centurion or a tribune. But even, a warband who just left the fahrar is far less experienced than a warband of veteran. The important point was the fact it was an ash warband, not a warband of tall/big musculate charr of the blood legion ( And more, an ash charr is not trained like a blood charr for close fight)

All Legions utilize all classes. Ash has warrior just like Blood legion does. The only difference is that Blood Has more warriors than Ash does and Ash’s strategy isn’t to send waves of warriors to a front line. Blood is known for their warriors because they have more of them and have proven effective by utilizing a general strategy that depends on their warriors but a Blood Legion warrior isn’t guaranteed to be larger or stronger than an Ash warrior. or even a better one on one fighter. They are however more likely to have more experience fighting multiple opponents since Blood’s strategy is to meet it’s enemies, en mass on the field of battle. Ash’s strategy means an Ash warrior may actually have more experience fighting individuals since Ash is more covert.

Yes, but what I meant is that a warrior of the blood legion is a frontline warrior who need more strenght than a ash warrior who act more like a commando.

Dustfinger.9510:

edit: I can see what you mean about there probably being more experienced warbands out there with more heroic charr. The odds are in that favour. But we really have no big idea about the history of that Ash warband. it could have been fresh or it could have been veterans. We don’t know. It’s like assuming each member of the warband is a bunch of weaklings in the Ash Legion. Why would we assume that? We might as well assume they are the best of the best. it makes no sense to make either of those assumptions. (Btw, where is this norn ambushing an Ash warband from? Im unfamiliar with it)

This is why all of this evidence in norn favor is really only generalized to say that norn have the clear advantage one on one. It is in no way meant to signify that a norn will always win no matter what. But general advantages indicates general outcomes.

I didn’t remember where I read it, here or in gw2guru, but the norn wasn’t ambushing, he just comes from nowhere and bump/defeat an ash warband.
For the rest I agree.

Dustfinger.9510:

arthurobenzi.2619:

Kalavier.1097:

when they physically equal an entire Charr warband?

They don’t . One top norn hero defeated an little ash warband in close fight, attacking them by surprise. Already the balance is false, to have a comparaison, it would be vs a blood warband, or even a top tier charr of Blood legion . The end would be pretty different.

Where does this idea of “top tier” come from? All warbands from all legions are generally battlehardened soldiers who grew up working together since childhood. And all norn generally aim for heroism. How do we know the Ash warband wasn’t top tier of the Ash Legion? The answers are that we really have no idea how any other warband would have faired but we do know that individual norn strength allows a single norn to atleast compete with warbands.

Also, that lone incident is not the entirety of the evidence. We have Sea of Sorrows where a hardened warband surprises the captains council including an unarmed norn who uses a bench to subdue 3 armed and battle hardened charr.

What ? I never talk about top tier warband, but top tier charr of blood legion. By this I mean like a centurion or a tribune. But even, a warband who just left the fahrar is far less experienced than a warband of veteran. The important point was the fact it was an ash warband, not a warband of tall/big musculate charr of the blood legion ( And more, an ash charr is not trained like a blood charr for close fight)

Kalavier.1097:

arthurobenzi.2619:

Kalavier.1097:

when they physically equal an entire Charr warband?

They don’t . One top norn hero defeated an little ash warband in close fight, attacking them by surprise. Already the balance is false, to have a comparaison, it would be vs a blood warband, or even a top tier charr of Blood legion . The end would be pretty different.

You must’ve missed GW1 EOTN, where Charr and Norn basically left each other alone because hostile moves by the Charr toward the Norn typically got beaten. IIRC, the early warbands that went into Norn lands and caused trouble got absolutely destroyed.

Honestly, I don’t know the details of the situation you are talking about. I do recall hearing in this thread about a Norn who lifted a Charr with a single hand (adult charr) and flung them across the room.

Dustfinger.9510:

Where does this idea of “top tier” come from? All warbands from all legions are generally battlehardened soldiers who grew up working together since childhood. And all norn generally aim for heroism. How do we know the Ash warband wasn’t top tier of the Ash Legion? The answers are that we really have no idea how any other warband would have faired but we do know that individual norn strength allows a single norn to atleast compete with warbands.

Also, that lone incident is not the entirety of the evidence. We have Sea of Sorrows where a hardened warband surprises the captains council including an unarmed norn who uses a bench to subdue 3 armed and battle hardened charr.

Yep, find me a charr warband that doesn’t strive to be the best at their job, and I’ll be amazed. Also thanks for that quote, hadn’t heard that scene before.

A chubby norn basically pinning three charr soldiers against a wall with a bench despite their hardest efforts? And people STILL doubt Norn strength?

Norn and Charr have a mutual respect, because charr see the norn like big mammouth, with a surnatural strength they are, and norn see the charr like the powerful war machine of hell they are. I don’t want to re-say all I write on this topic but to resume :
1vs1 : norn
War : charr
( I Never talk about top tier warband, but top tier charr, but even, there is warband more experienced than other, and some with a lot of high rank charr)

Kalavier.1097:

when they physically equal an entire Charr warband?

They don’t . One top norn hero defeated an little ash warband in close fight, attacking them by surprise. Already the balance is false, to have a comparaison, it would be vs a blood warband, or even a top tier charr of Blood legion . The end would be pretty different.

Yes , the charr and the norn of the queen’s pavilion are tiny :/

In EU , there is a lot of roleplayer Charr in the Black Citadel.

Sartharina.3542:

… there is a LOT of incivility in this thread. Where’s the report feature?

Honestly… it depends on the stakes of the fight. A casual bar brawl can go either way, because there isn’t as much reputation on the line. However, if it’s a contest or Glorious Battle, the advantage swings overwhelmingly to the Norn, because in those situations, the Norn will demonstrate greater ferocity, tenacity, and aggression than the Charr would – sure, the latter may LOOK like a wild animal, but the Norn is on a whole different level entirely. The charr finds merely his life on the line. The Norn has not only his life, but also his reputation and legend on the line, which are FAR more valuable.

I keep seeing people say it takes intelligence and agility to fight, because that combination allows landing more blows… except, it doesn’t matter if someone can win a fight in 3 solid blows and it takes 40 to take them down. And even then, greater strength is greater speed. And, the more upright and secured structure of a Norn makes it more agile where it counts in a fight. Norn fight with the agility of Bruce Lee and the strength of Thor. Charr fight more like slinkies on steroids.

spring force > static force , so your last argument is for a charr win .

I will not dwell, the best conclusions have already been made, but here the errors are cumulated. Already you have reversed roles, Norns are quiet and proud fighters ( their official vertues are : independence, legend and passion) them, while the Charr are savages, aggressive and bloodlust.

We all agree that Norn will tend to win in a 1vs1 but this still is a close fight.

Chase.8415:

Solandri.9640:

serapheles.5409:

Snowmoon.1758:

Im heterosexual, and my MMO characters are almost always females.
Females usually have the sexiest looking armor and tbh,
if i am going to spend long hours looking at a character’s behind,
it might as well be a female’s behind.

I’ve heard this argument with some frequency, and part of me dies every time.

It shouldn’t. It’s perfectly natural. Males are genetically programmed to be attracted to healthy female characteristics (unhealthy females tended to die during childbirth in past ages, so genes to ignore how a female looks got selected out). Just like females are genetically programmed to be attracted to males who are capable of protecting (strength) and providing for (wealth) a family. Nothing sexist about it. Those are just the traits which yielded a greater chance of survival of the offspring.

OTOH, if they treat you as if you’re nothing more than your physical or financial characteristics, that’s sexist.

Stating its genetically “programmed” really shows that you actually do not grasp sexual attraction at all. There are far more factors in attraction, genetics only plays a small part in it. (I.E Homosexuality, where as one would not be attracted to the same gender)

In regards to this argument though I always laughed when people claimed the reason why they played females, but the fact the matter is most of those games had capes or robes, which covered the back end region anyway.

Yes but other factors are induced by genetics. Sexual attraction is induced by sexual hormones. Recent research shows that individuals who just had normal dose of sexuals hormones during their embryonic development, are naturally heterosexual. Homosexual individuals undergoing abnormal hormone doses.
Either mutations are natural, such as blue eyes are from a genetic anomaly.

Full war : Charr win
1vs1 : could be close fight but Norn will tend to win .

bullyrook.2165:

Reconnaissance is usually followed by some manner of assault.

Yes but here they don’t, because charr saw than send a few warband is not sufficient to invade the norn . They stopped the invasion because they knew that norn was not going to be invaded by a few warband, because norn have their surnatural strenght.

bullyrook.2165:

arthurobenzi.2619:

bullyrook.2165:

Drakenvold.9761:

1 vs 1 norn wins

full scale war charr wins…simple

Yeah… no. The Charr were unable to conquer the Norn, that is why they get along so well nowadays.

Seriously ? -_- you should read the topic …

“Although it is certain the Charr could have destroyed the Norn resistance if they but turned their entire army—or even one full legion—to the cause, warbands and smaller raiding parties could not overcome the individual strength of the Norn. These initial skirmishes taught both sides to respect the strength of the other.” (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World)

Stated by lore :
-1 full legion = norns lose,
-small warband = norn win .

The question for a real war is already answered : Charrs win with 1/3 ( 1/4 in reality, but yeah flame is banned ) of their military force .

“Many expected the initial Charr expansion through northern Tyria to become a tide of blood that would crash upon the Shiverpeaks, drowning Charr and Norn alike. The reality proved different. When the Charr reached the foothills, the Norn drove them back with a single crushing blow, completely decimating every warband sent against them. "

Just the first wave, friend. The Norn are not exactly organized. If push came to shove and the Norn became united against the Charr, it would have been quite a different story. It was best that the Charr back down before they took on more than they could bear.

And ? that change absolutely nothing -_-
“Although it is certain the Charr could have destroyed the Norn resistance if they but turned their entire army—or even one full legion”
1/3 of military power = win
I don’t know why you want not accept the lore.
“Just the first wave, friend.” yeah charr only send a few warband, it’s also called reconnaissance in war.

bullyrook.2165:

Drakenvold.9761:

1 vs 1 norn wins

full scale war charr wins…simple

Yeah… no. The Charr were unable to conquer the Norn, that is why they get along so well nowadays.

Seriously ? -_- you should read the topic …

“Although it is certain the Charr could have destroyed the Norn resistance if they but turned their entire army—or even one full legion—to the cause, warbands and smaller raiding parties could not overcome the individual strength of the Norn. These initial skirmishes taught both sides to respect the strength of the other.” (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World)

Stated by lore :
-1 full legion = norns lose,
-small warband = norn win .

The question for a real war is already answered : Charrs win with 1/3 ( 1/4 in reality, but yeah flame is banned ) of their military force .

Kalavier.1097:

Apparition.1576:

Go the the Norn Town Hall.. there you will find your answer.

I see nothing there that says they have grown weaker as individuals or a race.

Care to point it out?

I think it refers to the dialogue of the Jotun in the Great Lodge .

Kalavier.1097:

It is for this reason that there is a mutual respect between the two races. This war would only be a waste of time for the Charrs. In addition, the weakened Legion who came back from war , would be dominated by the 2 others, and the flame legion would like take this opportunity to try a comeback.
As much the Norns align themselves together, they become an extremely powerful military force , as much the Charrs send their three legions , the result would be the same.

Kalavier.1097:

No. If a real war was to take place, even if the Norns have an army, they would lose. The Charr are the warmasters (soldier + weapons) they live for her. Norns are not able to face an entire army. Because the Norns are not made for war, they are solitary heroes (and Hunter).
The only nation that was able to deal with Charrs, was humans , but today they are only a shadow of their past greatness.

Drewan.5681:

I think you make a mistake, firstly it would be a viking berzerker vs a roman legionnaire (here both have the same size ) ,
secondly the comparaison doesn’t work , because charr have the discipline and the war’s skill of a roman legionnaire ( if more ) AND the aggressivity and bloodthirst of the berzerker vikings . Norn have the viking berzerker strenght , but Norn are calm , they are not savage as berzerker or charr.

the norn will never have a real army, this is why a single legion currently sufficient to destroy them. Because an army would be against all their social and cultural foundations.

Dustfinger.9510:

Yes, here we are on the same wavelength, and I just need to add…

Norn and Charr, best duo when it’s time to drink !!!

Dustfinger.9510:

I’m really sorry if my sentence was misleading, but i’m french and my english isn’t very good( and it’s very hard to keep the exact meaning when I translate ). But I hadn’t misinterpret that dialog, I have say than the Norn says that her ale-fist hit hard ( not necessarily more than normal fist ).But same with that, the study of referential remains consistent. And for the Norn’s strenght , “Not that their strength is limited to lifting power.” -> I’m sorry, but in the lore, the norn ( not with the spirit form , huh ) are only described to be much more stronger about their lift strenght .
(-> I just see it after twice reading , nice kitten placement ^^ )

But If you take a Norn vs a Charr , with a spirit form Norn, the Norn should not be able to lose.
After I do not want to dwell on the debate, my point of view it’s just that in a duel without weapons or armor or magicpower, with similar size, both opponents have a chance and that the fight will be tight.
(Edit : I just forgot to mention that I speak about a member of the blood legion)

Drewan.5681:

Yes, it was stated by official lore , in the actual configuration the Charrs can beat Norns with 1 legion .

Dustfinger.9510:

I’d like some sort of lore reference that says the punches of a charr are about even with a norn. I don’t see how anybody can make that claim without lore examples or hard numbers to say that any potential charr mechanical advantage is enough to match the strength adavantage of the norn.

because as far as small skirmishes go, we have seen in lore that norn tend to take on forces of charr that outnumber them. So all the theory crafting about the anatomy and the difference between lift strength and punch strength doesn’t seem to be reflected in the lore. perhaps the advantage for the charr is there mechanically but it doesn’t seem to be enough to contend with the power and skill of the norn. So all factors considered, the powers don’t tend to balance out.

Drewan.5681:

^^ this. Plus if we are going by anatomy and what not then based on how their bodies are proportioned and built, they shouldn’t have the strength they do in lore.

But they do so you can’t really judge them on real world anatomy and science when they already defy those laws.

There was a dialogue on page 4 of this topic , where a norn told him that he was hitting hard under the influence of alcohol ( ale) and a charr replied that the charrs hit hard all the time. In this dialogue , we can easily understand that the figure of style indicates that the repository is put on the person who first mentioned the subject ( the norn ) and the charr answers in relation to this repository.
In terms of lore, I based on what we can found in written form (in game, or other) , but the lore does not indicate that the norn are more powerful than the charr , but it is mentioned that the norn can lift very heavy loads.
( But I can granted , alleging lore , in ancient times , the norn and jotuns was extremely powerful because they could use magic (before human gods restrict magic) ) .
And theory crafting is only there to fill the lore . If the lore already answered all these questions we would not be here to discuss it .

Stop confusing two different things, the force (which can carry heavy loads) and the power of a punch are dissociated.
A human example of heavyweight lifting champion can carry colossal weight, but if he had to make a game of boxing he will not hold the shock.
Now Take Rocky Marciano, a world champion boxer who was probably the most powerful puncher, it is not able to carry weights as heavy as a champion of weightlifting.

And secondly you forget an important detail: the anatomy.
Norns like humans, to a blow mainly use a movement from the shoulders and including the arms. The legs are used to support and although the individual pent forward momentum in the shots, the position remains static.
The energy of the punch comes from the bust , and carry heavy loads human anatomy is perfect because our legs used to support heavy loads , while allowing the bust keeps a vertical position , and thus through the muscles of the shoulders, back and arms to support the weight in question.

In the case of Charr it is different because their back is already rounded (= unequal load distribution) , and their legs are not vertical (limitation of weight carried by the arm). The Charr are anatomically not adapted to carry heavyweight .
But as regards the punches against their anatomy is an advantage.
Because the Charr in the strength of their legs projecting all their mass, this force acts like a springs that is compressed and expands in one fell swoop.
(to understand , try to jog four legs propelling yourself with your legs).
This “Spring Force” allows at punch to multiply the power of the final blow.
Therefore the strength of a charr can never equal the Norn, but their punchs are almost as strong.

But more than this, the strength of Norns is “static” while the Charr are “dynamic” over their natural agility. If a Norn and Charr confronts in a boxing match, the Norn wins since he is statically more powerful,
but in a true duel the powers will balance.

This was for the 1vs1 mano a mano .
For war, the Charr win for sure in the present state of things, but if the Norn creates a military organization, the powers also balance out.

The problem is that this is a speech of deaf, because you are confusing two different things . Yes the norn have a supernatural strength , this mean the ability to carry very heavy loads ( like the two brother who throw charrs , but don’t forget than Rytlock had also threw Eir ). But in a power ratio they are the same, because they have the same hit power ( in-game dialog ).

Sundar.1735:

Although the charr have sharp claws and teeth, due to their size they lack the agility we normally associate with cats. Norn are bigger and stronger and so they’d probably in 1 on 1 fights.

However in an all out war the Charr would win as they have vast armies and lots of technology for war. Only the Asura would be able to beat them in a war.

Firstly Charr are as big than Norn (Norn have more strengh, but not more power),
Secondly Asuras wouldn’t be able to beat Charr in war, but they are able to withstand the Charrs’s assault if they are in Rata Sum.

Yes but here the two specimen have the same weight, and here the ratio of strength is not important since it is a power ratio. And for science, charrs have a different anatomy than the felins , mainly for the bust ( since the pelvis) , the arms and the head ( neck included ).