Guild Wars 2

Experiment 2 Flamethrower kit Weapon Abilities:

Naked Character (no armor no traits)
/ Power 916 / precision 916 / Toughness 916 / Vitality 916 / Attack 916 /
CHC 4%, +0 critical dmg/ Armor 916 / Hp 15,082 /

Weapon: none equipped (flamethrower kit only)

Napalm hit results after 100 shots at lines of 5-6 Heavy Training Golem:
hit 328 dmg * 10 ticks (1 tick per sec over 10 seconds)
crit: n/a cant crit

Results:
This ability is confusing. In my tests I lined up 5 or 6 heavy training golems in a tightly spaced line and used the ability. In some cases all 6 golems would get hit by the fire they were standing in and take damage as normal. The majority of the time (about 2/3) only four would be hit by the fire and would then take damage as normal. No amount of repositioning of the enemies or cast location/ground target would change these results. It is possible the ground target is incorrect and is in fact much more thin than it shows and is missing golems completely or it may be bugged. Either way getting more than 4 enemies to line up in a real fight is highly unlikely. The other thing to note is that the enemy must stay in this area to receive the entire duration. It does not apply the full effect simply by traversing through it. As soon as the enemy leaves the line of effect the damage stops (even though their icon cycles till the single burn falls off).

Flame Blast results after 100 shots at lines of 5-6 Heavy Training Golem:
This ability has two stages. I will call them travel and blast.
Travel Hit: 230 -250 dmg per enemy
Travel Crit: 349 – 360 dmg
Blast Hit: 533 – 592 dmg in a small aoe
Blast Crit: 840 – 894 dmg

Results:
From the tests I did I found that there was no limit to enemies hit in either stage of the ability(tested up to 6). Also crits on travel and on blast are based individually per enemy hit (in the same way hip shot is). Each enemy hit by this attack in both the travel and blast phases has a chance to get crit by the corresponding damage. If an enemy is hit by both the travel and blast phases it seems to effectively roll twice (once for each attack it was hit by) as I have crit on both in a single shot to enemies in the travel path and close enough to the epicenter of the blast when it goes off.

I skipped Air-blast and Smoke-vent as there is no damage component or secondary to them and in the limited time I tested them (about 20 uses each) they consistently applied as described in the tool-tip. This is why I skipped net shot in section one as well.

Adding to the quote above, I found a little more information on conditions that may give us some insight until I can test the values themselves.
“A condition is a negative effect that can be inflicted against enemies through the use of skills and affecting traits. Conditions are characterized by their effect and duration. When a condition is reapplied (to a foe who already has it), some conditions will stack increasing in effect, some conditions will increase in duration, and a couple will have no change. When a condition is removed using a skill, the entire stack of that condition is removed. Condition duration is accurately added and will not be rounded.”
(from http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition)
There is also a table with each condition and if it stacks in duration upon reapplying or stacks in intensity.

Hebee.8460:

@BakBakaa
Lyuben got it right, it is the ‘rascal’ armor. I did get it from leatherworking crafting (Level 275) as well as the sholders. The only thing that isnt Rascal, is my gloves which are part of the Prowler (325) set. The colors are Marine and a silver/grey (can’t remember)
The one annoying thing I have noticed with this coat however, is the amount of clipping in weapons/armor (like my gloves, it works though) but it might just be Charr

Just my luck… I am a charr as well so I will have the same problem. Oh well… thanks for the reply!

Here is Grimm Irongear (recently switched from The Gearbeard surname after reading the naming thread :P). He is an engineer so you could say he literally melts faces in pvp :P da dum tsch!

Sporadicus.1028:

Bleed has been confirmed to stack ticks of damage, not increase the damage of each tick.

It has not been confirmed, however, whether players with lower condition damage affect your ticks or if there is an internal tick damage that distinguishes each player’s tick amount.

That is an interesting question. It would be pretty terrible if a team is focusing an individual enemy and the highest damage per tick condition is being overwritten by another one based on which lands first.

The only thing I could find on the matter was this quote from the official GW2 wiki:
“Condition damage that is already affecting a target will update per tick according to the source’s stats. For example, An Engineer may inflict Bleed with an Elixer Gun toolkit and then swap to a pair of +condition damage pistols in order to increase the damage over time, even if no further conditions are inflicted. "

This only seems to be talking about your own damage though. I will need to get another person to help me test that in the near future in the HoM.

Reserved for Further testing (as soon as time allows).

Experiment 1 Rifle Weapon Abilities:

Naked Character (no armor no traits)
/ Power 916 / precision 916 / Toughness 916 / Vitality 916 / Attack 1061 /
CHC 4%, +0 critical dmg/ Armor 916 / Hp 15,082 /
Weapon: PVP Steady Rifle (attack 125 – 125)

Hip Shot hit results after 100 shots at Heavy Training Golem:
Hit 28 dmg
Crit 42 dmg

Results:
Piercing shots hit for the same damage for all targets they pierce
within the weapon’s range. From what I observed the critical hit chance was
independent for each target hit and was not based on the original target
or any previous targets hit (i.e. whether the first target in line crit or not had no
bearing on any successive pierced target’s crit chance).

Blunderbuss results after 50 shots against 3 Heavy Training Golem in varying range
(closest:~100 furthest:~400):
Dot 43 regardless of range (see results)
Hit 70(~100 range), 52(>100 & <400 range), 44(~400 range) crit 105(~100 range), 61(@>100 & <400 range), never crit at ~400 range

Results:
Interestingly enough the dot seems to tick faster the closer you are
but does the same amount of damage each tick. I was consistently ticking the closest
target for 43 dmg * 11 ticks and the furthest target for 43 dmg * 4 ticks.
The dmg per tick never changed. The only thing that did change was the tick frequency in the same total bleed time. Also shots are not blocked by previous targets. You could look at this as all shots pierce 100% of the time or that they have a sort of cone area effect regardless of what targets are in the way. However I can not
determine if obstacles completely block the cone effect or if the ability allows for a partial effect if some of shot can hit an enemy but some cannot.

Overcharged Shot results after 50 shots against Heavy Training Golem:
Hit 44 dmg
Crit 66 dmg

Results:
Regardless of range within its limit of 400. Shots only hit the first
target it comes into contact with even if target is further down the path and
within range. There were no pierce or AoE behaviors observed during this test.

Jump Shot results after 50 shots against grouped Heavy Training Golems:
Crit on leap 61
Crit on landing 126
Hit on leap 40
Hit on landing 84

Results:
Vulnerability effects all targets within the radius of it’s leap AND
landing (tested up to 5 grouped targets). This ability can apply it’s
vulnerability effect to two separate groups of enemies. In addition,
if the lept from target and leapt to target are one and the same, the
vulnerability effect stacks and the duration refreshes on landing. So it is
possible to get 3 stacks of vulnerability on a target for 1 second then up it
to 6 stacks of vulnerability for the next 7 seconds on landing.

Warning This is going to be long and there will be no TLDR

I want to begin the basic math for engineers so we have a base to compare
builds and setups with and have a good way to check our hypothesis for any
changes we suggest.

What this thread is:

This is a place to post factual results tested in game. We will use these
numbers to compare and eventually arrive at specific and realistic
conclusions on abilities, traits, and equipment while avoiding what it
“feels like” is happening.

I would like this to become a discussion that eventually answers questions
such as the power VS precision debate and which is better for effective HP
toughness or vitality? Then eventually moving towards things thresholds and
balancing of stats.

What this thread is not:
* A suggestion thread: there are hundreds of other threads for that.
Suggestions on the class or class abilities will be ignored.

* A comment forum: Please keep posts about specific information
you have tested in game where you can verify the numbers from both
sides or in a controlled environment. So for example do not post
numbers from spvp or tpvp matches. Instead only against dummies in
HoM (just an example. Any proper control will be accepted).

* An ArenaNet message board: we will be operating under the unlikely idea
that ArenaNet is not reading this forum as to keep discussion between
interested parties and away from messages hopefully seen by an employee
and unrelated to the topic. This should not be taken to mean we do
not want ArenaNet’s input should they have something to further the
discussion but more intended as a guideline for players posting.

* A kitten stroker. Please keep on topic and factual. No one here will care
if you have bigger numbers except to refute/support a claim already made
in the previous posts in this thread.

Now that the guidelines and disclaimers are out of the way…. let us begin with the
facts as compiled by wiki.guildwars2.com to illustrate the building blocks we need
(in order to finish the puzzle we have to look at the pieces first).

Attributes:

Power(stat): Every point increases attack(stat) by one point.
- Attack(stat): Equal to weapon damage plus Power(stat), and together
determines amount of damage dealt.

Precision(stat): Increases critical hit chance (CHC).
#note: The amount of additional precision(stat) required to
increase the chance of a critical hit by 1% is determined by
the following formula:
(0.0024 × Level^2) + (0.06 × Level) + 1
***thank you Mario.4036 for the correction to precision ( bad copy pasta is bad :P )

The required precision(stat) to increase the CHC by 1%:
At level 20 is 3.16.
At level 40 is 7.24.
At level 60 is 13.24.
At level 80 is 21.16.

- CHC: chance of landing a critical hit with their attacks and spells.
#note: Applied conditions such as bleeds and poisons can never crit.
However, skills which cause direct damage in pulses such as turrets or
some ground-based AOEs can crit.

Toughness(stat): every point increases armor by one point which improves the character’s ability to withstand direct damage. Toughness(stat) has no effect on falling damage.
- Armor(stat): is equal to Defense plus Toughness attribute, and will determine
how much incoming direct damage will be reduced.
#note: Armor does not mitigate Condition Damage.
- Defense is a value primarily increased by armor equipment. As mentioned
above (see toughness) Defense + Toughness(stat)= Armor.

Vitality(stat): every point increases maximum health by ten points.
#note: Base Health is different for different classes. At level 1
all characters also have a base 24 Vitality(stat), and at level 80 a base
916 Vitality(stat). See this link ( wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Health ) for table.

Hebee.8460:

Here is my 80 Charr

http://i.imgur.com/x71Ql.jpg

(I couldn’t get the attachment to work )

That is a cool armor compilation @Hebee ! What is the name of that coat? I have seen a few engineers with it and think it has just he right amount of awesome

AndrewWaltfeld.4621:

Just to toss this in there. Originally there was going to be shotguns in the game, but they ended up merging them with rifles since only engineers primarily used them. Was no point to having them. Shotgun style skill stayed, but the rifle is what the gun is called.

This explains quite allot and in a way confirms what I was saying about them being one and the same.

Mif.3471:

It’s neither. A rifle or a shotgun can actually kill something.
They should call it “the thing accidentally I use for 2 attacks when my grenade kit drops for no reason”.

HaHa!! more truth to this than I would like to admit.

@Kriaser: Ahhh I see that helps some. Thanks for the update!

Honestly after reading many replies and topics on this forum I am under the impression they should have just scrapped rifle and called it shotgun. In fact looking at the skills we have more argument for it being a shotgun than we do a rifle (despite the name).

#1: hip shot: While the name is shotgun-esque it is the only skill in the bunch that acts like a rifle. Fire a projectile that can pierce at range. Possibly this should have been a different skill to avoid rifle confusion.

#2: net shot: This is believable from a blunderbuss or shotgun like weapon and provides utility. Rifle shooting a net? Doesn’t seem to jive for me.

#3: blunderbuss: This literally is a kind of shotgun. More damage the closer you are and adds bleeds in the same manner. Perfect for shotgun but doesn’t make sense in a rifle.

#4: overcharged shot: Either a rifle or shotgun could fit into this mechanic as both could have a powerful kick. I would say a shotgun more stereotypically fits this idea but calling it a draw as a case could be made for either.

#5: Jump shot: Blast the ground, damaging nearby foes and leaping to your target. Seems to fit better with a shotgun than a rifle. If I shoot a shotgun at the ground I am going to pepper everything in an area from ricochet damaging nearby people. With a rifle I am going to lose a bullet and make a hole in the ground.

I believe the issue is with them calling the weapon a rifle (probably to use the same animations/textures/etc.) and not just calling it what it is . . . a shotgun. I don’t think that is bad though as a shotgun would fall in line range wise with the other items in our kits and feel fitting for an engineer class. Having a rifle means there are a few items that need to be fixed ability wise to make it fall in line as a ranged weapon.

TLDR:
I call typo on ArenaNet’s part. Shotgun not rifle.

As you said rifle is really good for its control element. The pistol works really well in the condition builds but unless you are going to run pistol shield and stay in melee range throwing nades at your feet (works well actually), you aren’t going to use it’s cc as much as you would the rifle. That being said pistol/shield and rifle are pretty evenly matched for CC with the slight advantage going to rifle for it’s two range cc and one optional jump (if you use it opposite of what it was made for to run away). I am not sure if wielding mh/oh weapons gives you the chance for two sigil procs/stats or if it is based on mh/oh skills but that could be something to take into consideration as well.

The short of it:
For your build I would say Rifle > pistol/shield > pistol/pistol

Weapon swapping does not seem to be part of the design for engineers and this is a good thing.

They replace the ability to weapon swap with kit swapping. Kits are abilities that grant 5 skills (replaces weapon skills) you wouldn’t normally have. This comes with an extremely low cool-down on swapping in/out of. That functionality alone makes it worth losing the weapon swap for.

Weapon skills are our five main skills (all 5 from two hand or 3 and 2 divided between main-hand/off-hand) that are not changeable. Most classes can have at most two weapons (a total of 10 skills) and have to take into account a swapping cool-down for “hopping” between those weapons to utilize other skills. Engineers on the other hand get the ability to “hop” between UP TO four different weapons (1 weapon 3 kits) at the cost of an ability slot, on the fly with no noticeable cool-down (1 second I think). Even disregarding the ridiculously lower cool-down ( a very strong element of our class indeed ) that gives them 10 more weapon like skills to use on the fly at the cost of utility slots. The engineer can also forgo the kits in order to take on more conventional ability like buffs (elixirs) or immovable companions (turrets). This versatility and ability to respond to a wide range of encounters is what makes us extremely strong, complex, and fun.

I agree turrets and elixirs have their problems (again discussion for another thread so I won’t get into that here) but the sheer number of options we have is in fact worth the loss of weapon swapping. Putting another set of weapons in our line up or the ability to swap from pistols to rifle in combat would break our class dynamic and end up devaluing our kits. In all honesty (once the bugs with stats are fixed) kits will be stronger or at the very least as strong as any weapon we can switch to anyways. Use those kits to better effectiveness and learn to dance between them for truly devastating control and debilitation! Its what makes us unique.

Are you focusing on spvp, WvW, or PVE? Builds tend to differ between these goals. I currently am running a pretty balanced build in Spvp and a more power/toughness build in PVE. WvW is mostly based off nades from walls as defense for kills and effectiveness.

I would learn the class a bit and level up to about 10-15 then browse the “Post Your Build” thread stickied at the head of this forum for what you think best fits your play style. Many people will tell you they disagree with one opinion or another but few offer any advice on their “magical answer to success” so at the moment self trial and error is the only true path to enlightenment.

While in a small way we are similar to the elementalist in that we must switch kits (aka your attunements I believe) to access other skills that is about where the similarities end. We have next to no cool down on our switching between kits and must use that to our advantage to be successful. It is not uncommon to fire all cool-downs on a main weapon (cc or condition) then swap to the flamethrower for cc and then pop into grenades for damage and condition /cc again. There are many builds and options though and you may end up with something more effective and more suited to your play/composition.

Just my opinion.

Animations and comical value: Asura hands down.

Weapon size and the human armor look and feel: Norn

Lore / character personality / a little weapon and armor look: Charr

Nothing above matches what you want:

Silvari: Small body structure, good animation, decent armor, decent customization.
or
Human: the safe choice. Good in armor, most picked class, decent animations.

Downsides of the races:

Norn: slow movement animations (bigger = slower, smaller body models are bearable)

Asura: armor and weapons are not shown as well. Big differences don’t showcase well when pistols or chest pieces are barely shown.

Human: Semi effeminate, annoying phrases (male), most rolled class (opinion which may not even matter t most players).

Sylvari: maybe not the most believable engineer (lore-wise), demeanor and feel of the race inside this class doesn’t fit well (opinion), more stylish than intimidating in the armor choices (objective).

Charr: slow movement on larger body styles extremely slow feeling (see norn), least played race for this class (opinion), boots and pants are virtually all the same or unseen in many armor setups (if that matters).

I ended up with Charr after 47 levels in PVE and 12 ranks in pvp as Asura. Everyone will have a different opinion and preference though.

While I agree there are enough topics about this already that this could have beeen posted in, the suggestion itself is not a bad one. Coming off hostile is not going to help things. Maybe try a suggestion of your own or explaining why you don’t like something in a cronstructive way.

While I agree that anyone who isnt dancing between kits and using the abilities on the fly is missing a major part of the class and it’s mechanics (and losing out on what damage we have), I do not think changing rifle skills changes that. The problem many are having is the concept of stay away from me mixed with i need ro be close to do damage to you. It isn’t so much we can’t do things with other abilities so mich as it is the weapons contradict the philosophy of the class as a ranged support.

One thing that may help understand engineer better (at least it helped me) is to think of it as your kits are your damage while your weapon is more of the condition/CC applier. Kind of backwards from the other classes. This would work much better for us if stats from weapons were working correctly towards our kits. It is however one of the unique things about the class and something I greatly enjoy.

Without devolving this back towards a flame war, perhaps you can enlighten us on the facts that enables you to do such great dmg then? I am sure the community would be happy to accept the information should it be the fix all to all the issues being posted every day on these topics.

I talk from my experience and I regularly swap out my build to try new ideas and setups. I have played this class since early access and have never had any kind of incredible damage.

Please do not misunderstand my above suggestions for QQ as they are ment in the spirit of communication about the classes weaknesses in order to identify and spark discussion about balancing. If you can contribute to that in some meaningful way I would be happy to listen.

Regardless of the places we could be better (or I could be better as you so bluntly state without reason or supporting evidence) I enjoy engineer beter than any other class and am still successful with it in both pvp and pve. That doesnt mean it is perfect though.

Again just my 2 karma

For PVP:

Blunderbuss is a lackluster damage weapon skill that misses half the time and the other half was not worth the time it took firing it off. The range is horrible and the damage is not worth the risk.

I like the rocket idea or the notion of keeping it the same and buffing it to actually do some serious damage. I think it is ridiculous to get rid of something as integral to the class as net-shot when we have such a backwards ability for our class on our main weapon. I have been using p/p or p/s more and more recently just because I can actually do damage when I need to.

Whenever I go with rifle I feel very underwhelming damage wise compared to the other weapon options out there. I would really love if the basic #1 ability (hip shot i think) was buffed for damage or some kind of bleed just to put some actual pressure on an opponents hp bar. Too often do I have to swap to nade kit to stack conditions and hurt the guy and swap back to rifle to stop/slow/knock-back the guy. A bit backwards if you ask me.

For PVE:

I like the rocket idea. Especially if it had some kind of AOE attached to it (like the pistol #1 explosive shot skill). I think this would pair rather nicely with knocking enemies back and using the rifle’s inherit CC to hold them in place and line them up for an AOE.

Allot of our issues in PVE from my experience are in that while we have utility, we do not have a strong single target damage (enough to smash a guy before he smashes us) or AOE (outside of grenade kit spam) to compensate. So it feels like we get to stun/blind/slow/knock-back but then use that whole time they are stunned to do very little damage.

I love kiting. I love difficulty. I hate pulling everything off perfectly to get a lackluster result (dmg wise) though. I want to feel like I outsmarted the enemy and won without having to hunt champions solo with a 15 minute kite fest.

Just my 2 karma :P

I went with Grimm Gearbeard. I guess my character is known for his beard? Kind of fitting since I picked the one char face that has a full beard

I would just like to go on the record that even though I know how to deal with thieves and don’t have allot of issues with them 1v1 it is still a bit unbalanced with the gap closer + damage that the abilities have. Especially when you couple it with the current (rumored lag bug) perma-invis issues. More times then not I can get a lucky cc on them (cause they didnt move immediately) but there is that 1/4 that beat me by spamming heart seeker alone still. I do not believe they are completely OP and can one button everything like is claimed in many of these forums but it is disheartening nonetheless and I am not a glass cannon build either.

I agree with OP. The majority of games I have been in have been nothing but Thieves and Mesmer. It is a bit ridiculous when you look at the overall amount of them (even just looking at those sitting in the heart of mists you can notice the disparity). I also play an engineer and have been having a blast but between the class imbalance and the auto balancing/join quit issues I really am starting to feel the bitterness welling up inside me toward SPVP.
I would say to give ArenaNet some more time though. The game hasn’t been out for long and they are just starting to get to the meaty stuff like balancing issues. I have full faith that ArenaNet will come through as promised in due time. In the meantime I will just go do something else when SPVP or FOTM trolls pop up in large numbers.

Thank you for the video and information! I am using something similar in PVE at the moment. I utilized the elixir that gives speed, might, and retaliation though as I did not know of the wonders of elixir R.

I have played a little time on every class and allot on engineer and necromancer. I really enjoy the versatility of the engineer. I like being able to switch kits and overcome any situation, control a mob with slows and interrupts, and still put out low but decent DPS while doing it all. I get the feeling that I am not suppose to top the damage charts. Engineer feels more like the I can get out of anything and make you waste your “bag of tricks” for long enough to kill you. It is not a two button win class for sure.
I am currently lvl 47 or so and can’t bring myself to play my necromancer anymore. When I do it just seems like there is something missing. Engineer made all other classes feel like a one trick pony for me.

Thank you Masterpyro.

Yep same happened to me.

Here is my engineer. He is affectionately known as Mad Doctor Shinu. I attempted to dye him so as to look as if he is in a lab coat as well. Only in the mid 30’s in lvl at the moment though.