1 silver does not make a difference at a close to 7 gold price point. The consumer does not care about this difference in price. There are NO listing on the trading post where the difference between the buy and sell is 1 silver at a 7 gold price point.
No it reduces competition as there is less room for me to make make lower bids and still maintain a profit.
You can still make a profit. You just need to abide by the FIFO. So, come up with the idea first and don’t be greedy and you will always be the front of the queue.
All the prices highlight are effectively the same price the only difference is the order in which they were posted. The person selling at 6g92s74c would have sold at 6g92s79c if he posted earlier in the day. It has nothing to do with the 5 copper price difference. It was done to get around the FIFO queue.
Following the letter of the rules but abusing the spirit is still an abuse.
The circled part of the attached image looks a lot like a LIFO stack.
9 items with 8 listings and with %0.16 difference in price. Looks like the last item in will sell first without a significant difference in price. People are getting around the FIFO queue with a 1 copper hack.
The one place I expected so resistance is how this idea breaks down when placing bid between the multiple already existing bids (which I believe shows all the previous post were by tp flippers)
For example:
Current sell bids:
1 @ 100g
1 @ 99g
1 @ 97g50s
I would not be able to sell between the 99g and 97g50s values because 1% less than 99g is 98g10s, but 97g50s which already exists would then break the rules.
I believe this could be fixed by having preset bid buckets for all items, so players no longer need to fat finger a price and just choose a predetermined price point.
For example (and I did not figure this out from 1c up)
1@100g
10@99g
0@98g01s
1@97g02s
This would allow for an open bucket at the 98g price mark that follows the rules
The point of contention is how a trading post designed around a first in first out queue that effectively degrades to a last in first out stack at higher values would be better off forcing users to respect the queue design by using a percentage bid increment vs a flat rate.
e.g. current sell bid is 100 gold next lowest available sell bid would be 99g and similar on the buying side. Current buy order is 50 gold, next available buy bid is 50g50s
Its not the people that didnt check before, im worried about, its other tp players like me, that i am worried about. As those players dont have any way to check, how much items were posted between 5 and 10 silver before and after my endeavor, they are less likely to jump on my gold train.
By analyzing at which days of the week demand is higher than supply and vice versa, i minimize the risk of getting my listings and orders only filled when i want to.
You are right, its not guaranteed, i give you that much. But profit is never guaranteed on the tp.
And whats a big ticket item? at what value does it start? this topic is about a 1% rule in general, not only on items above a certain value. And even for an item worth 100g, there is still a big reason to undercut by a copper because it puts you first in line. If you got undercut by a copper, you maybe should have posted at a lower price or you just wait until both listings are bought.
I have many more ways, i could use to gain more profits, if this 1% rule would be implemented. If your goal is to make the rich a little richer while on cruise control, by all means, go ahead and keep advocating it. I take the extra profit.
I don’t mind the rich getting richer as long as they follow the intended queue like structure of the TP and not create an effective stack. I guarantee the trading post will break down as inflation increases.
Taxes and the listing fee are not the same thing as bidding or setting a price for an item. Anet allows 1c increments on those so it is clearly a conscious design decision.
The way something is, is never an argument for a conscious design decision. I welcome a dev to say otherwise.
No, Anet doesn’t think 1c is negligible because taxes and fees ARE calculated down to the 1c increment. You’re making an illogical association here. Relative fees and taxes do NOT equate to Anet thinking 1c is a negligible amount of money. Just saying it doesn’t make it fact.
Again copper as a unit of measure and 1 copper as a value are different things and I already exemplified where 1 copper is of value and i exemplified where it is not.
It is relevant because 1c is negligible when dealing with 100’s of gold.
You can say it but you don’t explain why. Their is no non-academic argument that I can think of to make the value of the minimum bid increment depend on the value of the item being sold. Please explain how this would make the game better.
There is no reason not undercut a big ticket item by one copper. This effectively creates a stack where the last item list will be the first to sell. This goes against the intended trading post queue of the first item list should be the first to sell.
How does it not make sense? If I sell something for 1 Copper less, the tax from the listing fee is rounded to the nearest 1 Copper. Last nite, I posted the same item with two different prices that were 1 Copper apart. The listing fee was 20 Silver and 19 Silver 99 Copper respectively.
So tell me again how 1 Copper isn’t negligible if the taxes can account for this?
Just so you can understand what negligible mean, even though I feel like I should created a new thread for this.
The following are examples of what is and is not negligible.
When I list an Item for 20 copper I pay 1 copper in listing fees, 1 copper here is very relevant here and is not negligible. When you list an item for 4 gold the listing fee will be 20 silver. The reason it is 20 silver and not 1 copper like the previous sale is because in this case 1 copper is negligible. For a 10 gold item, I would change my listing every time I was undercut by 1 copper because a 1 copper listing fee is negligible.
As you resorted from discussing 10g items to discussing copper value, while still failing to state 1 compelling reason why a 1% price difference for undercutting and more volatile markets that it results in benefit the general player base more than the status quo, i dont think there is any shame in leaving this topic.
There is no reason not undercut a big ticket item by one copper. This effectively creates a stack where the last item list will be the first to sell. This goes against the intended trading post queue of the first item list should be the first to sell.
… and what better reason than going against the intent of the developers
Actually, it’s not negligible, since the tax is rounded to the nearest 1 Copper. So you countered your own argument.
Your point does not make sense and is unrelated to using percentages vs a flat rate. The value is round to the nearest copper (as a unit) not the nearest 1 copper as a value, otherwise all number would round to 1 copper.
I realize you are a troll please try to be more constructive while doing so.
Tier 4 fine mats (claws, scales, totems etc.) would be a prime example:
Current value between 2-5s, between 10-15k overall supply and their main supply source (various lootbags) could be worked the same way as i outlined in this post, which would greatly benefit from the 1% rule:
Can you please give me a meaningful reason now, why this 1% rule would benefit the whole playerbase and improve the status quo?
You are trying to fix something that is not broken…
Your example is flawed because same people that didn’t check the prices of more than one listed item before are not going to care later either. Those looking to make money on the TP are going to realize there is only 10 items in each pot. You also need to be able to sell all you items at 10s when there is a 6 silver gap and also hope people dont sell you items at 8s50c or buy your items listed at 5s. Either way using increments of 1% pools will neither help nor hurt your market control endeavors.
There is no reason not undercut a big ticket item by one copper. This effectively creates a stack where the last item list will be the first to sell. This goes against the intended trading post queue of the first item list should be the first to sell. The only way to prevent this abuse of the trading post is to make people think more about what an item is worth to them by removing the negligible undercut amount. There is still a potential for a stack like effect, but it would not be guaranteed to happen every time like it does today.
You keep ignoring the question at hand. Who is the 1 Copper difference negligible to? It seems that you’re trying to push an idea based solely on your own personal preferences. If that’s the case, then feel free to post items for values more than 1% less than the current offering, and post Buy Orders for 1% more than the highest offer.
We can’t stop you from using the TP as you see fit, just as you can’t stop us from undercutting by 1 Copper.
I didn’t ignore you. It is negligible to anet, hence the reason they already use percentages for all other trading post aspects.
It is relevant because 1c is negligible when dealing with 100’s of gold. This was not an issue at the beginning of the game, but as inflation has increase the copper is becoming more and more useless. Its only power is its OP ability to skip to the front of the line in the trading post. This is a hack in an otherwise brilliant market and only those who flip and manipulate the market would object to it.
“Meaningful” as a description of an amount is “meaningless”. We are dealing with numbers here … go ahead and tell us why working in differences of 1c are ‘meaningless’, then there can be a rational discussion.
The truth is that your ‘meaningful’ amount is irrelevant. No imagined problem is going to be fixed by changing the minimum buy/sell increment. The system works now; it works especially well for everyone that isn’t basing their prices on unrealistic values.
neg·li·gi·ble
adjective
1. so small or unimportant as to be not worth considering; insignificant.
There is a reason as to why the tax and listing fees are in percents and not a fixed copper amount. The minimal bid should be as well for the exact same reasons.
All this 1% rule would do, is making markets more volatile (70 undercuts will equal a 50% value loss), by spreading new listings over a wider value, especially in high volume markets. This makes it easier to manipulate those markets, as it results in general value swings of 30-50% depending on the day and time.
I still have to see a compelling reason how this change would benefit the player base as a whole.
An example of a market that you think would be negatively effected would be helpful. I don’t understand how this would facilitate a 30-50% swing in a market any differently than one could today.
It would not spread out new listings, just the undercuts. Instead of have a listing at 10 gold and one at 9 gold 99 silver 99 copper, you would have 2 listing at 10 gold. If the second person really wanted to sell first then they should sell at a different price point. This is exactly how things work today with items that cost a silver. I think everyone would agree it would be awkward to bid at a fraction of a copper. So either the market for cheap items is broken and can easily be manipulated or the market for big ticket items broken with all the micro-bids.
This post is not about being undercut. It is about dealing in meaningful amounts.
It should be noted on the trading post there are only two items valued more than a gold where the buy and sell price is within 1%. Meaning the community agrees that 1% is negligible. So anyone trolling in that range is most likely up to no good anyways.
That analogy doesn’t apply to me, because I always tap the pump until my gas price is a round number. If I miss it by a single penny, I overfill until I get to the next round number. If I keep missing, I’ll go until my tank can no longer physically hold the gas.
Pumps don’t show the tenth of cent on the end total, so you can’t tell when the you are being “forced” to pay an extra tenth of a cent because it is not meaningful. Now please stop trolling.
Gold inflation has made the copper meaningless on large ticket items and should no longer be used in transactions.
A Zap that cost 999 gold is effectively the same price as a 998 gold (anyone who says otherwise is a troll as well), the first person to sell at that price point should move their item first.
So you want the TP to force me to buy something at a price that I don’t intend?
Comrade, this is a free market. If I want to buy or sell something, it’ll be on my terms.
Yes, the trading post should force it users to deal in relatively meaningful values. Do you complain at the gas station when your bill is $3.499 for a gallon and they charge you $3.50 because the tenth of a cent is not meaningful?
Growing up around livestock auctions, they used to bid in 5-10 dollar per head increments at the most (small town)
This would make sense as I am sure heads of cattle sell somewhere between 500 to 1000 dollars, about 1% increments. Notice they don’t go up in 1 penny increments.
What if someone is selling something for 10 Gold, and I’m willing to buy it for 9 Gold 99 Silver and 99 Copper? If I put in a Buy Order for that amount, with your idea, someone wouldn’t be able to fill my order.
If you are buying items worth 10 gold, then 1 copper has no real value to you any more. You would have purchased the item for 10 gold instead of wasting your time with a buy order.
Also, if 10 gold is effectively equal to 9 gold 99 silver and 99 copper, why should someone be allowed to come after my listing and sell the same item for the “same price” and get priority over me?
How often do you see real auctions going “Do I hear 10 thousand” … “here” … “Do I hear 10 thousand and 1 penny”?
This change would just force people that undercut to undercut at an effectively different price and hopefully remove the profitable difference between the buy and sell price. This would closer resemble a real market.
I was on a Frostgorge Sound overflow with a full party at 1400 est 2013/8/23. I was fought in all three waves. My client became unresponsive while using a way point with 13-15 minutes left and eventually i was disconnected. There was about 25% left in the final wave. I reconnect and was able to get back on the same server with my group just as the final wave was ending and scarlet was spawning. I joined in for the scarlet fight and got credit and loot as normal, but did not get credit for “Friend of Fire and Frost” or “Invasion Canceler”. This is my second time attempting FS and both times I was disconnected at some point. The first time I was unable to get back in.
I second this for a completely different reason. I have a 1Mb connection which is perfectly fine for game play, but will take some time to download large updates. If the file size was know I could gauge when I need to return to my computer. e.g. 128 MB = about 16 minutes to finish.
