Guild Wars 2

Hmm, it would be nice if we could get a developer in here to reply to our concerns.

ArenaNet still being dead silent on the issue despite all the legitimate points being raised creates a very uncomfortable feeling from the customer/player standpoint. Immensely uncomfortable. I really hope we hear something from them on this issue, because it certainly isn’t going to be swept under the rug.

MajorMelchett.6042:

This post was orgianally made by Exemplar.1479.

I hope this is OK with you to post this matey, i thought your post explained the issue best and that it would make the best start of the thread.

Thanks! And no problem, I was actually going to post that here myself. To see that someone decided to use it as the base for this thread is humbling and warming.

Hopefully we can get the real issues looked at and resolved for all of our Guardians’ sakes. There’s a lot more to this than the simple “lulz keybind” or “if you want dps play warrior” nonsense that keeps getting trolled at us.

Mattius.2549:

The 2 points being debated are “omg i cant cope with 3 buttons being changed” or the loss of dps. Guardian is way more of a support profession than most in game, if you want to go full GS dps, go and play a warrior. GS has some really cool abilities on a guardian but that doesnt mean that it should be viable as a top dps build just because people would like it to be. GS is still great for AoE, you get might from “auto attack” for every target you hit with the 3rd strike, the 5 ability is great for gathering up mobs, the symbol is very powerful and should be matched with a sizable CD.

Clearly you didn’t read the posts that CLEARLY and POLITELY summarized the issues with the Symbol nerf in the patch.

I highly suggest you scroll up and read my post if you’re looking for an easy-to-find summary/example.

Basically, the Guardian’s ability to not-only deal damage with the Greatsword was nerfed, but our ability to SUPPORT with it as well. The doubled cooldown on the Symbol means:

1. Huge wait/less uptime for Symbol healing through traits
2. Huge wait/less uptime for applying Symbol Vulnerability through traits
3. Less incentive to utilize ANY Symbol-boosting trait with the Greatsword, including but not limited to: making the Symbol heal, increasing the duration, increasing the radius, or making it apply Vulnerability.

The increased cooldown is literally more oppressive when it comes to trying to utilize the Symbol of Wrath on the Greatsword in a supportive or cohesive manner with any symbol-based trait. There simply is no denying or getting around that.

To shove it all off as “omg i cant cope with 3 buttons being changed or the loss of dps” is a huge understatement and shows you have no understanding of what the actual effects of the nerf really did to Guardian build VARIETY and Greatsword *VERSATILITY.

In short: it isn’t about “lulz I can’t do l337 dps no moar”. Do everyone a favor and at least bother to READ what the issue is rather than rolling it under some troll-like nonsense.

Ketill.5218:

Exemplar.1479:

If Retaliation builds REALLY were the intended target, then work on Retaliation.

There is NO reason for the Symbol of Wrath cooldown to be THAT high. The nerf to the Greatsword has put a huge dent in the build variety and versatility it had previously, as well as hitting the damage and AoE ability of the weapon by more than any reasonable amount. On top of that, many symbol-boosting traits simply do NOT benefit the Greatsword like they used to, and this is a huge problem considering the Greatsword has a symbol in it’s skillset, and that the main trait line that boosts offensive symbol usage (Zeal) is tied to/provides traits to encourage Greatsword usage!

If the Symbol giving Retaliation is the problem, then simply make it give Fury or Might instead! I cannot believe that ArenaNet went through with this change without considering any of the ramifications it would have on other builds involving the Greatsword.

Your post completely nails many of the fundamental issues with this change. It goes way beyond just the skill arrangement people. This change really hurts all symbol builds with the GS and GS diversity in general. Go Zeal line for offensive symbols on your GS? Even less useful than it was before this patch. Run a GS and Mace defensive combo like I was doing before this patch? Well my Mace is still fine but now my GS symbol healing has been cut in half (also the symbol skill keys no longer line up between those two weapons like they did, making the combo more awkward than before). For being a so called “retaliation” change this really ended up being more of a Symbols nerf. And I’m not even sure why because I’ve never seen a single person complain about them being OP to begin with.

Thanks. I think a lot of Guardians are on roughly the same page since this patch change, in that most people see it as more of a detriment/unnecessary change rather than anything positive.

It really just comes down to the fact that the Symbol of Wrath change simply does NOT do what ArenaNet stated it was intended to do. Instead, it caused unneeded collateral damage to many other Symbol-based and Greatsword builds.

I really hope that ArenaNet takes a look at the suggestions and design-issues that are being voiced, because there are many that are being voiced VERY reasonably and logically. For them to ignore that would be a huge slap in the face.

I went through that “ignoring of the players” with Blizzard and Diablo 3. I’m hoping our collective player-base doesn’t have to go through that again in Guild Wars 2.

EDIT: I didn’t know how to properly quote, so I used a kittened method, but wound up discovering how to properly quote and so I edited for that.

Changes made to Greatsword by Patch

The stated goal of the Greatsword nerf was essentially to nerf Retaliation builds. So, in order to nerf Retaliation builds the following changes were made to the Greatsword:

GS #2 Whirling Wrath: No change, still a 10sec Cooldown
GS #3 Leap of Faith: Cooldown down to 15secs from 20secs
GS #4 Symbol of Wrath: Doubled Cooldown from 10secs to 20secs

While I am mildly miffed at the rearrangement of the skill order following these changes (as weapon skills are organized in order of Cooldown on your hotbar) that is NOT my complaint.

THE PROBLEM IS HERE

The nerf to Symbol of Wrath on the Greatsword did NOT nerf Retaliation builds as intended.

The nerf to Symbol of Wrath on the Greatsword did nerf SEVERAL OTHER builds that utilized that symbol.

Breakdown of Negative Effects

Symbol of Wrath was previously on a 10 second cooldown, exactly the same as Whirling Wrath. This allowed a Greatsword Guardian to branch into several builds and varying combat options.

If you wanted to deal a hefty amount of AoE damage, then the Greatsword was your go-to weapon. Between the Symbol of Wrath and Whirling Wrath the Greatsword let the Guardian be an AoE damage-dealing machine. This simply isn’t possible like it was before, as a Guardian simply cannot get the same damage output in the same time-frame thanks to the increased cooldown.

This isn’t only about the loss of damage though. The Greatsword also provided BUILD DIVERSITY/VERSATILITY by having a symbol in it’s weapon skillset and some synergy in the Zeal trait line. Unfortunately, all symbol-based trait builds that utilized the Greatsword took a huge and UNNECESSARY hit this patch:

If you wanted to use the Symbol of Wrath as a large AoE (by traiting for increased radius) in conjuction with other Guardian AoE’s (such as Purging Flames) for great AoE damage, you could do that.

If you wanted to use the Symbol of Wrath to heal yourself/allies (by traiting for symbol healing) and thus provide AoE support, you could do that.

If you wanted to use the Symbol of Wrath primarily as a damage-dealer and way to apply Vulnerability, you could do that (by traiting into the Zeal line).

If you wanted to use the Symbol of Wrath to chain with other weapon Symbols you could do so readily, as the Greatsword symbol had a cooldown that would typically be ready to go on weapon-swap if you cycled between a Mace or a Staff as your other symbol weapon.

Basically, the Greatsword previously had a reliable AoE symbol that would be up every fight, would help with your damage output, could catch many enemies in it (if you traited for increased symbol radius), could heal yourself and allies (if you traited for symbol healing), could apply Vulnerability to foes (if you traited for that via the Zeal line), could do increased damage (again, if you traited high enough into the Zeal line), and could be chained or used in tandem with other symbols very readily.

Yeah, the Greatsword can still do those things…but now it’s every 20 seconds. In the meantime, you’re practically stuck spinning with Whirling Wrath, using Leap of Faith 5 seconds sooner than you previously would, and then auto-attacking the rest of the time while you wait for the now abhorrent cooldowns of the Greatsword’s main damage-dealing skills.

Closing/Summary

The Greatsword gave build variety and versatility. With this unnecessary nerf the Greatsword has become only a tool for finishers, and the symbol synergy it did have has been so severely hit that it’s simply not worth using the Greatsword in any symbol/AoE builds anymore. Yeah, it CAN still be done…but it’s nowhere near as fun or as effective as it used to be, and there is no reason for it to be the way it is now (especially since the nerf was supposed to be to perma-Retaliation builds!).

If Retaliation builds REALLY were the intended target, then work on Retaliation.

There is NO reason for the Symbol of Wrath cooldown to be THAT high. The nerf to the Greatsword has put a huge dent in the build variety and versatility it had previously, as well as hitting the damage and AoE ability of the weapon by more than any reasonable amount. On top of that, many symbol-boosting traits simply do NOT benefit the Greatsword like they used to, and this is a huge problem considering the Greatsword has a symbol in it’s skillset, and that the main trait line that boosts offensive symbol usage (Zeal) is tied to/provides traits to encourage Greatsword usage!

If the Symbol giving Retaliation is the problem, then simply make it give Fury or Might instead! I cannot believe that ArenaNet went through with this change without considering any of the ramifications it would have on other builds involving the Greatsword.