Showing Posts For Halcyon.5340:
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Hello folks,
I’m writing this in hope that Anet would consider such a dynamic change to Thieves’ Unload skill. Unload is the dual-wielding skill from equipping a pistol in both hands, and it allows thieves to blast a single foe with a wave of bullets (8 shots) over 1.75 seconds, not including the starting and ending animation time. I’ve considered posting this topic in the Suggestion section, but it’s more vital for the community to discuss whether or not this suggestion is valid.
Unload has three related skills, Repeater, Sneak Attack, and Hidden Pistols. However, for this discussion, we are only focusing on Unload. Hidden Pistols is very similar to Unload, but let’s leave it out of the discussion for now.
The issue here is that Pistol/Pistol (P/P) on Thieves is an ineffective weapon set. This is a problem because P/P relies too heavily on Unload for its damage output (auto-attacking with P/P is not viable). And, for Unload to be effective, players are forced into builds that are heavily dependent on offensive gears and traits. Yet, P/P doesn’t offer any safeguard for offensive plays (no stealth and no invade), and it punishes players for using Unload at the wrong time. For example, using Unload on a benefiter of Retaliation will cause the thief to take 8 ticks of retaliation damage (assuming that all 8 shots didn’t miss). At the very least, that is 1584 damage (198 * 8 ) without any modifier in play (Lvl. 80 Retaliation source). In addition, having to dodge right after using Unload will waste 5 initiative and put the thief in a vulnerable spot.
For P/P to be a more reliable and effective weapon set, Thieves should be able to dodge without interrupting the channeling on Unload. Just imagine if this system is put in place. It would turn P/P thieves into true gunslingers and masters of endurance management! Bang!
Please leave your comments and encouragements below. And, if you would like to help out, please share this topic with your friends or direct them here for more discussion!
Hello, Everyone.
The Power Block bug fix on 18 April 2014 (PST):
“Power Block: Fixed an issue that caused this trait to set skills with zero recharge on 10 second recharge; namely auto-attacks from creatures and players, as well as thief initiative abilities. This trait will no longer trigger through stun immunity effects such as Stability and Defiance.”
A friend and I both feel like it should not work on auto-attacks, but it should at least work on thieves’ skills. The reason being that thieves counter Mesmers enough already with their attack skills not having any cooldown and being able to stay invisible 4 out of 5 seconds; 2/5 of mesmers’ attack skills require a target.
As my friend and I were both discussing the change to Power Block, we both agreed that Power Block was one of the few traits that actually stood out. It’s a powerful trait if your enemy is careless, and it was also good enough to warrant being a grandmaster trait. Now it doesn’t even work on one whole class effectively.
I do agree with others that Power Block can be controversial in sPvP, but interrupted skills already have a 5-second cooldown before it can be used again. The same should be applied to thieves.
If the change to Power Block can not be reversed and fixed, thieves’ interrupted skills should require more initiative in one instance after it has been interrupted.
Let’s discuss the change to Power Block and its effect on thieves.
As a reader, if you feel the same way, we would like you to post your insights and thoughts below so the other users of this forum can see and comment on. Any comment or thought is appreciated!
(edited by Halcyon.5340)
Ugh… yes? I’m confused, lol. I can’t even understand some of the posts here!
When I see people writing about the current condition bunker meta, I’m like yes… are you talking about PvP or PvE? I’m pretty sure these post are about sPvP/tPvP and WvW, but you never know! They could be saying that condition is THE BEST in PvE, which I find to be amusing.
Most of us all know that conditions are pretty much useless in PvE compared to straight up glass cannon damage dealers. Fighting a champion with a team of condition dealers is not as effective as fighting it with a team of berserkers. Sure, the condition dealers are more tanky (and will always get there last on the kill), but conditions should just be as effective as pure raw damage.
Here are some possible changes (in order of importance):
-The maximum stacks on dps-conditions should be increased dynamically or removed completely.
-Add two new stats combinations: [Condition, Condition Duration, Toughness] & [Condition, Condition Duration, Vitality]
-Additional Critical Damage should be capped at 100% – just like how Condition Duration is capped at 100%.
-New conditions should be introduced to limit the overwhelming advantages that glass cannons take for granted in PvE. For example, a condition(s) that reduces the following: the damage of a critical strike by 33%, critical hit chance by 20% (if critical hit chance falls below zero, all attacks become glancing blows), takes damage for dealing a critical hit based on a percentage of the total damage dealt, etc.
The advantages that glass cannon berserkers often take for granted and enjoy are a second chance, an extremely high downed state health pool, and power in number. All of these advantages are tied together so nicely that berserkers so seldom look on defensive stats (because there’s no need to!). What we have in the current zerker meta for PvE looks like this:
-Let’s zerg that champ!
-Dodge dodge!
-“Oh no, one of our teammates is down!” (downed state -second chance)
-“Don’t worry, he won’t die. Concentrate on the champ!” (the health a zerker gained from being down is so much that the champ will go down before the zerker runs out of downed HP)
-“Yes! We killed it!” (that was quick… strength in number – noo… I mean the number of zerkers!)
A team of berserkers can kill a mob/champ so fast that downed allies don’t have to worry about not being able to rally off from tagging the mob/champ. If only there’s something to hinder and get in the way of berserkers being able to attack without any worry or cost… such as the hax spells from GW1 (eg. Diversion & Backfire). Maybe then, people would think twice about joining a team fulled of zerker.
And then, we also know that glass cannon builds in PvP are amusing to fight against – because, sometimes I have no clue how they got downed. It was AN ACCIDENT!
Populating the lower-level zone was one of the points. I don’t think a demotion system of common mats will work out well. Then, it’d just be a farm fest for lower tiered dust, which is harder to come by than wools, cottons, and linen (since these can be salvaged from low level armors/salvageables).
3 scraps of linen equal one bolt and half a bolt? I don’t think that makes sense.
Now I see people are complaining about linen… I guess silks are next? Wait, many players are already complaining about silks. What else is there to complain about? That ignorant players are vendoring low-level light armors instead of salvaging ’em for wools, cottons, and linens?
Woohoo! No more perma-stealth d/p thieves! You d/p thieves better watch out for my p/d thief! No more hidding!
You see what I mean though, some thieves are QQing, even though only ONE class is getting the counter.
“Everything needs atleast one counter” – Charak
Does any other class mechanic have a counter that outright disables the mechanic like Revealed does to Stealth, and the opponent controls whether/when to activate it?
Right. I didn’t think so.
Yes, Rangers…When you flat out kill their Pet.
But to answer your question, stealth is not your mechanic..When will you Thieves realize this.
Steal is….Stealth is just something you have similar to Rangers with Evade to avoid damage.
It is not an actual Mechanic you have though.
You are correct in that stealth is not a mechanic exclusive to thieves, 4 of the 8 classes have stealth access. However stealth attacks ARE a mechanic exclusive to thieves, and are completely disabled by an enemy controlled on demand revealed. No other class can have their exclusive abilities disabled like this.
First of all thieves QQ less play a class that doesnt have stealth and see how long u last when u can’t spam ur blinds and spam stealth this is why thieves should have the stealth mechanic completely removed from them and instead something that blurrs them giving evasion for 2 or 3 seconds u cry about refuge removal if u get launched out gg learn ur class launches are easy to avoid ie banis stomp and skill 4 with hammer ranger would be most difficult but ha u just get close and spam blind on them like you do all classes that don’t aoe hard get skill thieves are thieves not assassins remove stealth completely if they wont stop QQing make the class require skill
Edit: actually all 8 professions have access to stealth via field combos but that’s a different subject
Ugh… after all these adjustments to thieves, I have never QQ’ed once. Heck, I only QQ’ed due to Last Refuge.
You see what I mean though, some thieves are QQing, even though only ONE class is getting the counter.
“Everything needs atleast one counter” – Charak
Does any other class mechanic have a counter that outright disables the mechanic like Revealed does to Stealth, and the opponent controls whether/when to activate it?
Right. I didn’t think so.
Yes, Rangers…When you flat out kill their Pet.
But to answer your question, stealth is not your mechanic..When will you Thieves realize this.
Steal is….Stealth is just something you have similar to Rangers with Evade to avoid damage.
It is not an actual Mechanic you have though.
You are correct in that stealth is not a mechanic exclusive to thieves, 4 of the 8 classes have stealth access. However stealth attacks ARE a mechanic exclusive to thieves, and are completely disabled by an enemy controlled on demand revealed. No other class can have their exclusive abilities disabled like this.
+1
Keep up the good discussion!
Giving rangers a reveal skill is a knee jerk move and completely kittens WvW thieves.
Losing all faith in anet
It only kittens glass cannon thieves that die in 5 seconds.
As a Pistol/Dagger (P/D) thief, I welcome the change to Sick ‘em. I have fought Dagger/Pistol (D/P) thieves, and I know how hard it is to outlast them in a sustained battle. It’s a difficult battle, because pistol shots can’t cleave (just like how shots from bows can’t cleave). In other words, even if I know where the D/P thieves are while they are stealthed, I will not be able to land any hit due to my pistol shots not being able to “cleave” the area in front of me (this applies to bows as well). And of course, I have access to stealth, but I can’t stay in stealth permanently; only D/P thieves can perma-stealth. As a result, D/P thieves always get the initiative, first-strike. And, that’s why it’s a difficult battle. If ArenaNet would consider making Shadow Trap apply Revealed for 5 seconds, that would even the score.
Regarding Sick ‘Em, please don’t even consider making it 8 seconds IF Revealed is applied ON CAST. If there’s a condition that has to be met before Revealed is applied (stepping on a trap, the pet “tagging” your scent, etc), then sure, 6-8 seconds is fine.
The accidental Revealed from ‘Last Refuge’ is already as annoying as it is. Having Rangers revealing you while you are at 25% health is even more annoying (you could literally be perma-revealed by multiple rangers).
Solely giving rangers the ‘Revealed’ debuff could cause increased aggro from thieves:
Just like many other thieves that traited into the Shadow Arts trait line, I despite my mandatory minor trait, Last Refuge. If rangers’ pets start to pervasively sniff me out while my thief’s health is around 25%, I would start to despite rangers as well, probably as much as I despite Last Refuge. As a result, rangers would be moved up to the top of my aggro list. Why? Because, they have a stake to my stealth mechanics and DPS – if I can’t stealth, I can’t Sneak Attack. Hopefully, the rework to pistol main-hand will allow me to evade and kite.
PS: Pistol/Pistol thieves (aka. no-invis thieves) still suck. Condition-based burst from stealth?! Condition-based auto-attack?! Might as well make Unload a condition-based weapon skill as well. Ideally, each dual-wielding weapon sets should be its own “sneak attack” that breaks stealth (ie. P/P’s sneak attack will be different from P/D’s sneak attack). Just my two-cents.
Thief’s ‘Last Refuge’ minor trait in the Shadow Arts trait line. Please consider changing that double-edge sword to something else.
With Hidden Thief, stealing JUST after an auto-attack would break stealth, just like Gungnir and Daendur have mentioned; stealing and gaining stealth before your projectile attack hits the target, revealing and pulling you out of stealth as soon as your attack lands.
If you are running P/D, there is no need to get Hidden Thief. It’d just be a wasted trait since you already have a built-in stealth with your off-hand dagger. Just C&D ‘5’ with the off-hand dagger then press the steal button before the attack animation ends; it’s the same thing as gaining stealth “after” steal. Hidden Thief is only ideally for thieves that aren’t using an off-hand dagger or a complete glass cannon back-stab D/D thief with no Mug. I suggest you consider changing Hidden Thief for something else such as Cloaked in Shadow, Infusion of Shadow, Shadow Protector, etc.
You are running pistol as an off-hand, right? Why don’t you ‘5’ after he performed two auto-attacks. He’d definitely come into melee range to Cloak and Dagger (C&D) you after two auto-attacks. The rotation for most P/D thieves is as follow for optimum dps: C&D, two auto-attacks, Sneak Attack (main-hand Pistol attack out of invisibility), two auto-attacks, C&D, Sneak Attack, and repeat. P/D thieves love it when you stand still – for the obvious reason of them being ranged and being able to C&D you at will. If you fight near other AI mobs (including allied Mesmer clones and Ranger’s allied pet), well, good luck. In addition, the attack animation for C&D is a little slow. This will give your off-hand pistol ‘5’ time to apply the blind before his attack lands. If his attack missed, he would be down 6 less initiatives. If you’re running a sword as a main-hand, you have the option to initiate before he does with ‘2’ then ‘5’ after he have already performed two ranged auto-attacks. With the dagger as a main-hand, you don’t have the leisure to initiate like you would with a sword. In this case, I suggest you use ‘5’ just before he come into melee range. If he dare not enter your smoke field, use Heartseeker ‘2’ to get out of the field. This will apply a leap combo finisher at the end of your Heartseeker, making you invisible and giving you a window of opportunity to open up on him. Well, most P/D thieves can sustain their initiative with the trait ‘Infusion of Shadow’ – gaining 2 initiatives upon entering stealth. I just hope you don’t run out of initiative before the P/D thief does, otherwise you’d be in a bad position. Good luck!
I do agree with OP; the minor trait, Last Refuge, gets more P/D and D/D thieves killed on more occasions than saving their butts. I’m running a P/D Condition Thief with 20K Health, 2600 Armor, and close to 1200 Condition Damage while unbuffed. If ‘Last Refuge’ activates just before I melee a player to enter stealth with C&D, I would be revealed for about 2 seconds (that’s 2 seconds of "Hey, kick my butt,’ wasting my endurance on two dodge rolls, or wasting the stealth on my Heal, Hide in the Shadow). While revealed, thieves can not enter stealth and can be focused down easily if they don’t have Shadow Step. To be honest, I wouldn’t mind just having the blind, but do something about the stealth from the trait. This trait and its activation is manageable in sPvP, but WvWvW is a different story.
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