Guild Wars 2

UnderdogSMO.9428:

Shahiel.8342:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yjxvj2I_CCA

“And legendary weapons, of course, are not any more powerful than the top level exotic weapons.”

“These legendaries weapons are really cool looking, and like we said, you won’t get a gameplay advantage out of these things, you’re just going to look really cool.”

From July 12th 2012.

now there not more powerful than ascended

Which is besides the point. Ascended are better and more difficult to get than exotics, which have been the benchmark thus far.

They added a new tier that makes the previous best in slot gear obsolete. That is antithesis to types of design decisions that they have been building for years.

UnderdogSMO.9428:

Snerf.1650:

UnderdogSMO.9428:

they said thay didnt want a gear tredmill, this is not adding a gear tredmill

the closest tredmill like aspect of this hole thing is just How far into the Fractals you can get

in no way dose this new gear lock you out of content

Adding new tiers of stat gear 3 months after a game is released is absolutely the definition of gear treadmill. It requires you to replace your sets of max stat gear that you were under the impression would remain best in slot gear.

yeah well from what i can tell none of the ascended gear looks like it will help much for my healing build so i dont have much to switch out for my dungeon runs

and i dont intend to spend all my time doing Fractals in the Mist

But you can’t just think about yourself when discussing overall design.

It does impact many other people and especially people trying to mix/max in WVW.

UnderdogSMO.9428:

they said thay didnt want a gear tredmill, this is not adding a gear tredmill

the closest tredmill like aspect of this hole thing is just How far into the Fractals you can get

in no way dose this new gear lock you out of content

Adding new tiers of stat gear 3 months after a game is released is absolutely the definition of gear treadmill. It requires you to replace your sets of max stat gear that you were under the impression would remain best in slot gear.

If ascended gear was only better in the fractal dungeon, you would be correct.

However, as stated, the ascended gear is better than exotics in all forms of pve and most importantly, WVW.

Creslin.1758:

Nerth.3940:

Creslin.1758:

tkalamba.2541:

Creslin.1758:

Principe I.1492:

sireuh.3870:

A guy said this on another forum

A few quotes from 3 months back about gearing:

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”
-Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.”
– Colin Johanson

they just told a mountain of lies.

I will not give a penny to ArenaNet

No…you don’t know if they lied yet. Read what they said:

If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game.

They only promised that items that take an unrealistic amount of time to acquire will not have statistical advantages. Now ask yourself, do you know that Ascended items will take an unrealistic time for most players to acquire? No, you don’t. For all we know, Ascended items may take around the same time to acquire as exotics.

Legendary items are clearly what they are talking about in the quote above. They actually DO take a ridiculous amount of time and dedication to acquire, and as they said, they are only differentiated by appearance.

So long as Ascended items can be acquired in a reasonable amount of time, then no promises have been broken.

This is exactly what people are choosing to not see when they go about saying they were lied to and that others are being illogical for saying otherwise.

Yep…a forum equivalent of a full-blown torches and pitchforks mob here at this point, and reason has gone out the window for most people.

But for anyone who is still thinking…

Please just give the patch a chance. It may turn out that Ascended gear is not that much of a pain to get, and thus no promises were broken, and everything is fine. On the other hand, it main turn out that Ascended gear requires a massive grind to get, and at that point, I will join you with your pitchforks.

But let’s at least give ANet the benefit of the doubt for now. Innocent until proven guilty and all that.

It’s not about this patch, it’s about the change in game design philosophy. Who can guarantee us this is the last stat gear upgrade before the expansion/level cap increase? Do you believe someone who fooled you once? You might but I don’t.

I’ve been playing MMOs for a long time now and heard so many promises from the developers I’d be a millionaire if someone gave me 1$ for each and every one of them.

Can you point me towards a quote where ANet promised to never add a new gear tier to the game?

You’re missing the point.

The fact is that this is a departure from the Anet design philosophy.

They stated that gear and stats weren’t going to be the focus and 3 months into the game are adding a new tier above the previous max that will require us to completely re-gear every character we play. They flat out just stated that “This is only the beginning” of a new gear progression model.

The design of Guild wars games over the last 7 or so years has been one that openly shuns gear progression. You can log in GW1 today and use the same max stat gear that you got when the game was released years and years ago. That’s the design principle that we are upset that they are departing from.

If they are changing course, that’s their prerogative. I understand that. If that is the case though, I wish they would just say that. And if it isn’t their intention, all they have to do is change this update to reduce ascended gear to exotic stats, while leaving legendary also the same stat-wise as exotic.

Creslin.1758:

Kriton.5402:

tkalamba.2541:

Creslin.1758:

No…you don’t know if they lied yet. Read what they said:

If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game.

They only promised that items that take an unrealistic amount of time to acquire will not have statistical advantages. Now ask yourself, do you know that Ascended items will take an unrealistic time for most players to acquire? No, you don’t. For all we know, Ascended items may take around the same time to acquire as exotics.

Legendary items are clearly what they are talking about in the quote above. They actually DO take a ridiculous amount of time and dedication to acquire, and as they said, they are only differentiated by appearance.

So long as Ascended items can be acquired in a reasonable amount of time, then no promises have been broken.

This is exactly what people are choosing to not see when they go about saying they were lied to and that others are being illogical for saying otherwise.

Well, you are wrong. That happens if someone is just reading one quote instead some more:

http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success

(…)When your game systems are designed to achieve the prime motivation of a subscription-based MMO, you run the risk of sacrificing quality to get as much content in as possible to fill that time. You get leveling systems that take insane amounts of grind to gain a level, loot drop systems that require doing a dungeon with a tiny chance the item you want can drop at the end, raid systems that need huge numbers of people online simultaneously to organize and play, thousands of wash/repeat item-collection or kill-mob quests or dailies with flavor text support, the best stat gear requiring crazy amounts of time to earn, etc. (…)

If we chose fun as our main metric for tracking success, can we flip the core paradigm and make design decisions based on what we’d like to play as game players? Can we focus our time on making meaningful and impactful content, rather than filler content meant to draw out the experience? Can we make something so much fun you might want to play it multiple times because it’s fun, rather than making you do it because the game says you have to? It’s how we played games while growing up. I can’t tell you how many times I played Quest for Glory; the game didn’t give me 25 daily quests I needed to log in and do—I played it multiple times because it was fun! (…)

we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

The idea behind it is crystal clear. Play semantics as long as you will, but they have broken their own design and at least my faith in this studio.

Still not seeing it.

If gear progression is the antithesis of GW2, then answer me…why does exotic gear exist? Why does rare gear exist? Gear progression is ALREADY IN GW2. There is really no disputing this.

All their statements mean is that gear that takes an extremely long amount of time to acquire (Legendaries) should not offer a statistical advantage, and that people should play the game for fun and not to chase carrot after carrot…and I agree with them completely. Nowhere in their statements do they say that gear progression will not be part of GW2. And I mean, this should be obvious considering that it IS a part of GW2 already.

Finally, for argument’s sake, I would like to ask…would you have a problem with Ascended items if they are only marginally more difficult to acquire than exotics? And if so, then why don’t you have a problem with exotics, or even rares?

The idea was that while gear and level progression exists during the 1-79 process, once you hit max level it was by design to be easy to acquire max gear.

At that point, you switch over from vertical progression to horizontal progression.

That means changing rewards from stat increases to, build variety, titles, vanity, etc.

The draw of the Guild Wars system since GW1 was that once you max out stats, that’s it. You no longer have to worry about it, even if you come back months or years later. You can spend time and energy getting rare looking items or other neat things, but that stats would not be a barrier to gameplay.

UnderdogSMO.9428:

Snerf.1650:

Curtis.1562:

Honestly didn’t read even 10% of this thread, but I for one am glad they’re adding new armor and a new/harder dungeon. I’m maxed out in PvE and haven’t had much to do except build up gold(yes, I have EVERY dungeon skin.) It’d be nice to having something to strive for again. This new dungeon scaling in difficulty may be the best thing they’ve added. The current dungeons are too easy with a good group. Most paths you can clear within 30 minutes without even trying. You can clear the CoF paths in 9-15 minutes each. I say, “Bring on progression and harder content!”

But wouldn’t you agree that there is no reason for this to impact WVW? It’s great that your gameplay is being enhanced, but these changes hurt my gameplay.

As someone that plays 8 chars and wants to WVW in all of them, these changes make it that much more grindy to enjoy my play. I simply want to cap my stats with exotics and forget about gear entirely.

The compromise is to give people like you who enjoy pve dungeons and character gear progression something while not impacting players that only pve for WVW. These changes don’t do this.

right but thats never what WvW was sapost to be, WVW was always ment to be a place were PVE and gear have an afect and as you grow in PVE you grow in WVW and vise versa

It’s also the spiritual successor of games like daoc and the only way to replicate that “open world, roaming around 8 man/gank squad experience”. It’s an unfortunate side effect that it requires pve. If there were persistent, instanced pvp areas for large scale conflicts using the pvp gear, I’d be all for that.

Since there isn’t, many of us WVWers just do a minimum of pve to get maxed stat gear and don’t look back. Adding another tier of stat gear just makes this a more time consuming process to “get to the fun part”.

bluejay.6739:

In case someone is using a text parser to total the sentiment in this thread, I want to add that..

I AM COMPLETELY FOR THE ADDED GEAR TIER.

It will give me something else to work for. If the game’s difficulty and rewards don’t increase over time what point is there to continuing to play?

I understand you probably mean this to be rhetorical, but the answer is fun.

You play because the gameplay experiences are fun, not for what shiny rewards they bring. That is highlighted in Anet manifesto and other interviews for years now. It’s been a really awesome thing to see from the company that makes many of us think very highly of them.

WVW is fun, it doesn’t really give any rewards, but the experience is fun. The same goes for all other aspects. PVP, PVE, crafting, exploring, roleplaying, etc.

Curtis.1562:

Honestly didn’t read even 10% of this thread, but I for one am glad they’re adding new armor and a new/harder dungeon. I’m maxed out in PvE and haven’t had much to do except build up gold(yes, I have EVERY dungeon skin.) It’d be nice to having something to strive for again. This new dungeon scaling in difficulty may be the best thing they’ve added. The current dungeons are too easy with a good group. Most paths you can clear within 30 minutes without even trying. You can clear the CoF paths in 9-15 minutes each. I say, “Bring on progression and harder content!”

But wouldn’t you agree that there is no reason for this to impact WVW? It’s great that your gameplay is being enhanced, but these changes hurt my gameplay.

As someone that plays 8 chars and wants to WVW in all of them, these changes make it that much more grindy to enjoy my play. I simply want to cap my stats with exotics and forget about gear entirely.

The compromise is to give people like you who enjoy pve dungeons and character gear progression something while not impacting players that only pve for WVW. These changes don’t do this.

xtorma.1283:

Snerf.1650:

Polluxor.5970:

Why aren’t ascended items just like exotics in stats?

I would really like to know the reason for this.

This is the real question that most people are missing. Everything is superfluous except this question.

All they need to do to fix this kerfuffle is change the plan and make ascended and legendary items exactly the same stat-wise as exotics.

Stick infusions on ascended items and keep legendaries just for looks.

Boom. Problem solved!

This is assuming that they believe they have a problem. I don’t think they believe this will impact them in a meaningful way.

And I think that ignoring an enormous player outcry and going back on years of design principal is a pretty big deal. Many other players do to.

It’s a very big deal to go back on 7 years of ArenaNet design principles a scant few months into the release of this game.

Guild Wars games have never been and were advertised as being not about gear or levels, but player skill and builds.

Moving in this direction is a huge change of course and betrays the very aspects of design that led many of us to the company and the game.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devil’s advocate: ANet promised “No gear treadmill.” They never promised that Exotic would be top of the line. We assumed that exotic would be based on two things: it was the best available, and the holy grail of legendary items had the same weapon stats. Now, it’s pretty clear from yesterday’s damage control post that they are not planning to introduce further tiers of gear, and that Ascended drops will be added over time to existing content. If both of those promises are kept, I’m OK with this. If they break those promises, I will accept that their word cannot be trusted.

But what you describe is the definition of a gear treadmill. They raised the tier of gear and introduced a new level of stats.

It doesn’t matter if someone doesn’t call it a gear treadmill, that is the textbook definition of one.

There is no gap to bridge by keeping the current system of exotics=best in slot stats.

Polluxor.5970:

Why aren’t ascended items just like exotics in stats?

I would really like to know the reason for this.

This is the real question that most people are missing. Everything is superfluous except this question.

All they need to do to fix this kerfuffle is change the plan and make ascended and legendary items exactly the same stat-wise as exotics.

Stick infusions on ascended items and keep legendaries just for looks.

Boom. Problem solved!

Gurpsmeister.9068:

Snerf.1650:

Gurpsmeister.9068:

WHOA calm down now. It’s not a power creep, it’s the insertion of a new tier to gap the ease of obtaining exotics and the difficulty of obtaining legendary stuff. If what they say is true than great, our tiers our now flushed out and we won’t have to see anymore.

I suspect they’ll make much use out of those infusion slots over time but whatever. Let this thread die now..pls?

But it is a power creep. There is currently no gap. Legendaries are the same stat-wise as exotics. This only bridges the gap if there is a gap. There is currently no gap.

If ascended gear has the same stats as exotics, but bridges the skin gap to legendary, that is a totally different animal. And it’s one that would make a lot of us very happy.

That’s why people are continuing this thread.

The gap isn’t in stats, it’s in difficulty to obtain. Exotics rain from the skies and are super easy to get. Legendarys are ridiculously difficult to get, there’s no middle ground. that’s what the Ascended stuff is supposed to be, something in between to allow a sense of accomplishment.

You know what I felt when I got all exotics? Nothing, it came so fast and so easy I felt no pride in being full orange. I’m hoping Ascended will allow me to feel a lil’ swell of WOOT as I work towards my legendary.

So yes, there was a gap. It’s addressed now and post go bai bai now?

And I have been playing since release and have a lvl 80 with one exotic item and 7 alts on their way to 80 and WVW. I’d like all my alts to have full exotics sometime and the current difficulty and expense is just right.

All raising that ceiling would do is create unnecessary gear treadmilling.

You can still have a gap in effort between exotic and legendary while keeping the stats the same. Even now there are lots of exotic items that are very tough and expensive to get in the mystic forge. Are you aware of those?

Gurpsmeister.9068:

WHOA calm down now. It’s not a power creep, it’s the insertion of a new tier to gap the ease of obtaining exotics and the difficulty of obtaining legendary stuff. If what they say is true than great, our tiers our now flushed out and we won’t have to see anymore.

I suspect they’ll make much use out of those infusion slots over time but whatever. Let this thread die now..pls?

But it is a power creep. There is currently no gap. Legendaries are the same stat-wise as exotics. This only bridges the gap if there is a gap. There is currently no gap.

If ascended gear has the same stats as exotics, but bridges the skin gap to legendary, that is a totally different animal. And it’s one that would make a lot of us very happy.

That’s why people are continuing this thread.

Gilandred.9870:

Ryth.6518:

They should just make the gear cosmetic (that will quiet the ‘treadmill’ crew though they are wrong on what a treadmill is) and make it that you can’t progress to new content unless you beat the previous progression dungeon, etc…via an achievement..so if you haven’t beating Progression Dungeon A, you can’t do Progression Dungeon B until you get the achievement.

Now this, I can agree with:)

I also agree with this over raising the gear cap. This would have the added benefit of not negatively impacting WVW.

I understand Anet looking for neat end game things. That’s great.

Why not look towards things like a Hall of Monuments or player housing or some other ways to get neat stuff that doesn’t directly raise player combat stats.

There are lots of neat options out there.

Fingal Hoy.4129:

Mitsu.5193:

So much nonsense, they are adding a tier that to be completed requeres MORE grind than exotics but LESS grind the legendarys, sry but i dont sea a treadmill here.

I agree with you 100% there, exotic set are really easy to obtain and legendary really hard, there’s not a problem in my mind in adding an intermediate tier that will appeal, I think to most people.

The idea is that max stats should be easily gotten by all. This allows player skill and builds to be the difference, not stats.

Adding ascended items and making legendaries better than exotics just makes another layer of gear an issue, rather than focusing on other horizontal growth.

While I appreciate a response, what I don’t understand is why he feels that there is a stat gap between exotic and legendary that needs bridging.

There is no stat gap at all, let alone one that needs bridging.

There is an effort gap, but as long as the only difference is a skin and “prestige” there is no issue.

It’s only by instituting a stat gap with this update that there would ever be a need to bridge it.

What I’m reading by the dev response, is a solution to a problem that only exists by implementing this solution…. They are in essence creating the problem, then implementing a half-fix simultaneously.

Does that seem odd to anyone else?

camoflaugz.5031:

Snerf.1650:

Loosifah.4739:

If the only thing you get from new sets and new gear in new content updates is a new look, what the hell is the point in doing the new content other than “Oh wow I have all these pretty USELESS sets”?

Because we enjoy doing the content for the sake of fun!

You don’t need to chase the carrot to enjoy yourself. Doing fun things is fun.

Why should there be more to it than that? This is what Anet has said to believe, and it’s what many of us do as well.

Actually, nothing is fun for me, without a reason for doing something. And Millions of MMO players have proved this to be true already. Anet stick to whats proven numbers don’t lie.

Are you serious? Nothing is fun without being rewarded?

If you aren’t trolling, this is the most depressing thing I’ve read today.

Try just enjoying things! You are playing a game, not working in the coal mine.

rosswise.7203:

How about you just make Ascended items the same statistically as an upgraded Exotic? Only, with an Infuse slot. Making them basically the same as greens from GW1, but with Infuse for the dungeon mechanics. Problem solved, no harm done.

That’s a great suggestion. This is the compromise that many of us are suggesting.

The problem is that they immediately showed stat upgrades with the line “This is just the beginning…”

Loosifah.4739:

If the only thing you get from new sets and new gear in new content updates is a new look, what the hell is the point in doing the new content other than “Oh wow I have all these pretty USELESS sets”?

Because we enjoy doing the content for the sake of fun!

You don’t need to chase the carrot to enjoy yourself. Doing fun things is fun.

Why should there be more to it than that? This is what Anet has said to believe, and it’s what many of us do as well.

Loosifah.4739:

So just because they add new content with a few upgrades to equipment they’re trying to steal players from other games? They’re trying to imitate that horrible kitten game that just imitated everything before it?

Get a kitten clue man. WoW was not the first MMO and it is definitely not the best. Nor will it last forever. Times changes; games get new content. Just because there’s a little vertical progression doesn’t mean it’s going to destroy anything.

Who’s to say this won’t just turn into a diagonal progression then flatter back out to horizontal?

It absolutely is destroying the manifesto on which the game was designed and on which we purchased and played it.

No vertical progression beyond end game exotics. Period. Cosmetic progression only.

All arguments about the degree of which are irrelevant. Any vertical progression is counter to their design and unacceptable to us.

camoflaugz.5031:

So peoples issue is a gear treadmill? This is the best decision ever, finally have something to look forward to. I don’t get why people are playing an MMO if they dont like progression. Progression is proven and its what makes an MMO a success, sounds like what some of you are looking for is easy access to everything, that doesn’t work in the long run, thats a game that you end up putting on the shelf after a few months.

This game was built and sold with the premise of no gear treadmill. Many of us find carrot and stick development uninteresting. There are many other mmos that do those games well. GW2 was supposed to be our oasis in the gear-treadmill desert.

There are other ways to progress than blatant gear upgrades. Skill upgrades, cosmetic, horizontal progression. Not vertical.

Halbarz.3854:

well i want to say grats to everyone that wasn’t able to read it, the gear from that instance will be based to upgrade towards the infusion wich is mainly used for the new condition that is only there in that one instance atm.

so your gear doesn’t get bad its just as good, its just a extra set to do a extra instance. stop crying.

This is incorrect, they’ve shown already that the stats are better than exotics.

Loosifah.4739:

jboynton.7894:

Vorch.2985:

ANet adds a tier so that people can attain stats closer to that of a legendary.

THEREFORE; GW2 is a gear grind/gear treadmill/WoW clone.

Slippery Slope Argument:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html

Anet is not adding ascended gear so that people can attain stats closer to that of a legendary. Legendary weapons currently have the same stats as exotics.

This patch is increasing the stats on a new tier of gear and at a later time increasing legendary weapons to equal that of ascended weapons. Hence a new stat.

Nice link though. Fortunate for you, you can find anything on the internet and it’s all pure truth.

^ This.

What the kitten is wrong with actually making LEGENDARY gear more you know….legendary?

Because the game was built on legendary being cosmetic, not performance-based.

If you want performanced-based gear upgrades there are many mmo options. GW2 progression is based around player skill and item-cosmetics.

The proposed changes fly in the face of this development goal. That’s why many of us respond loudly.

Loosifah.4739:

Crater.1625:

Loosifah.4739:

Did you REALLY expect them to not add any additional sets/armors/weapons/etc. to the game EVER?

No. We expected them to never add better sets/armour/weapon/etc to the game, EVER.

Then you’re a kitten naive person. The game has only been out for 3 months and you expect them to never add anything better to use over time. This isn’t about a gear treadmill it’s about keeping content challenging and fun.

If you never add better equipment with better stats and new upgrades then new dungeons and monsters and events would be no harder to complete other than new mechanics.

In 7 years they never did this to GW1 and made fantastic content that was both interesting and challenging.

You don’t need a gear treadmill to make a good mmo. This is the line the Anet has stated many time, and it’s a line that many of us truly believe.

Loosifah.4739:

God you people will complain about anything. So they’re adding a new “slightly” better tier of equipment after 3 months. Did you REALLY expect them to not add any additional sets/armors/weapons/etc. to the game EVER? It’s not like this armor is even going to be that much better than what you already have. Chill the kitten out and enjoy the game.

It’s not about adding variety, it’s about adding objectively better gear when they stated for years that it would not be done.

And yes, GW1 stuck to that for many years and still does. So many of us did expect that to be how GW2 would be driven.

I would like to respectfully and politely add my voice to the growing pile of people concerned with these proposed changes.

The biggest draw for me as a player was the no gear-treadmill manifesto. This is directly contradictory to that.

This gear should have no impact on WVW greater than exotic unless they implement ways to earn the gear through WVW play.

I speak as someone that has supported Anet through gem purchases and as someone that will not continue to do if stats are added to ascended gear that go above exotic.

Blueroseknight.7954:

rickets.1386:

@Blueroseknight
Grats on missing the point, not this threads fault though, Grow up, which consists of learning to read.

There are many many posts, including the OP, which are whining about not getting a prize after opening X chests. Some are calling for refunds and some are just raging. There are a variety of posts in this thread. Regardless, it is full of people who are saying “you did it wrong ANet, I want X Y and Z and here is why my way is better than your way”. Entitlement at its finest. Maybe you all should organize an Occupy movement

I know this will go over your head, but Occupy and other social protests are not about entitlement, they are about fighting for rights and social justice. It’s not entitlement, it’s sticking up for your belief in a better world.

Wyrdthane.6801:

Take my money too, Please let us Pay for Skins DIRECTLY with GEMS.. i want 100% guarantee to get the item. I don’t care if it costs 1000 gems.

Agreed. Take the weapon skins out of the bag and sell them for like 500 – 800 gems each.

Problem solved.

If the girl scouts sold bags that had a 1% chance of giving cookies and a 99% chance of giving dirt. But didn’t tell people that they had a 99% chance of getting dirt. I bet you tons of people would be mad.

That’s what is happening here. And that’s why we have a legitimate complaint.

Personally, I would even go farther and prevent that stuff from happening in the first place. Make it simple. You pay x dollars, you get y service or product. That’s all. Fair and transparent business.

DumpTruck.2945:

i support the constructive criticism, but i do not support the whining and the people that claim to be victimized. if you are upset, conduct your unrest with logical and conclusive explanations. not this unrelenting banter about being scammed and abused by a system that YOU have the choice to use. You are responsible for your own actions not the developers of the game.

I’m quite curious as to what you see as whining and what you see ans constructive. I’ve seen very little whining and lots of constructive criticism myself.

Erasculio.2914:

I’m not fond of a lottery system to get items in a game. I’m strongly against a lottery with real world money to get items in a game. As such, I have chosen to not support it, and thus not buy any key.

In other hand, those who bought a lot of keys were not doing it for charity. Most likely were doing so hoping they would be among the few to get a rare skin, and thus be able to sell it for a very high price at the Trading House, making a profit considerably bigger than they would have if they had simply converted the gems to gold.

This is why all the complaints from those who bought a lot of keys are, IMO, hipocrisy. It’s one thing to say, “I do not agree with a lottery system so I won’t support it”. It’s something entirely different to say, “I agree with a lottery system as long as I get a lot of rare stuff and the others don’t”. Those who bought a lot of keys thinking it would be an easy path to rare and valuable skins got exactly what they paid for.

No one here is saying that they did this though. Most people are regular players who have saved up a few keys through normal play that find it unacceptable that rewards are being given only to the extremely luck or extremely rich. That’s just poor design.

dahkot.3579:

Snerf.1650:

dahkot.3579:

Snerf.1650:

Varen.8507:

Snerf.1650:

Varen.8507:

Lol I think I like this thread more than the other one. I agree with the OP. People can try to argue about gambling issues or legality like in the other thread. What it comes down to is “I want something, and it seems like I can’t get it w/o more effort than I want to put it”. QQ

That’s not the case, but I guess feel free to oversimplify something and miss the point.

At the core, this is the issue. You can try to dress it up with whatever you want, but in the end if there wasn’t something here that you wanted it wouldn’t be an issue. You wouldn’t have came to the forum to complain about it.

Wrong again. I’m arguing based on principle. It’s something that those of us who have morals and strong opinions do on a regular basis.

Sorry , your own “morals” don’t make gambling wrong or right. There are millions in the world who enjoy it in lots of forms , and it will probably anger you to find out that plenty don’t mind it in an online game either.

You don’t have some moral high ground because you don’t like the practice.

There is a reason real governments have gambling laws. Because it’s not just another neutral practice. It’s a predatory practice that exploits people’s addictive behaviour to get them to spend more money for a good or service than they would directly spend on the good or service.

Ah gotcha , you want the governement to be able to tell a mmorpg company what they can and can’t do in regards to in game gambling/content etc.

We come from two completely different viewpoints where there is no middle ground.

I like freedom of choice and personal responsibility and suffering the consequences as a result. In other words , no excuses or blaming my habits on other folks or wanting big brother to look out for me.

Until governments and business start looking out for people better, or until enough people like me comment, you and I will be nothing more than dollar signs. That’s a sad dystopia that I think we all can do better than.

Spendrik.2961:

Snerf.1650:

dahkot.3579:

Snerf.1650:

Varen.8507:

Snerf.1650:

Varen.8507:

Lol I think I like this thread more than the other one. I agree with the OP. People can try to argue about gambling issues or legality like in the other thread. What it comes down to is “I want something, and it seems like I can’t get it w/o more effort than I want to put it”. QQ

That’s not the case, but I guess feel free to oversimplify something and miss the point.

At the core, this is the issue. You can try to dress it up with whatever you want, but in the end if there wasn’t something here that you wanted it wouldn’t be an issue. You wouldn’t have came to the forum to complain about it.

Wrong again. I’m arguing based on principle. It’s something that those of us who have morals and strong opinions do on a regular basis.

Sorry , your own “morals” don’t make gambling wrong or right. There are millions in the world who enjoy it in lots of forms , and it will probably anger you to find out that plenty don’t mind it in an online game either.

You don’t have some moral high ground because you don’t like the practice.

There is a reason real governments have gambling laws. Because it’s not just another neutral practice. It’s a predatory practice that exploits people’s addictive behaviour to get them to spend more money for a good or service than they would directly spend on the good or service.

Ok, you’re starting to weird me out with this line of argument.

You could very well say the same about eating, drinking, smoking, going outdoors, meeting strangers …

I understand your hyperbole, but in a way, yes. I strongly believe that both business and governments need to do a better job of taking care of people rather than exploiting them.

DumpTruck.2945:

no-one forced your hand in spending cash. there is an option to buy gems with gold. if you burned through your gold (such as i did) and resorted to buying with cash that is your choice not the devs. i stopped when i dropped my account gold down to 50silver and decided if i didn’t get one by then i wouldn’t get one. i haven’t spent cash and i understand the disappointment, but seriously if you spent cash you only have yourself to blame.

I haven’t spent cash on this, and many people echoing me haven’t either.

It is the principle that we are fighting against. We aren’t sad because we got burnt, we stayed away from the practice while commenting to Anet in these forums our issue.

People that don’t make their voices heard are begging to be ignored.

Spendrik.2961:

Make a difference, vote with your wallet!

I do. I vote with my wallet and with my words. I’m not being offensive or making personal attacks. Both are permitted.

EnemyCrusher.7324:

Kimbald.2697:

GW1 odds were different from these…

What were the odds of…
Getting a minipet from a Zaishen Strongbox or a Gift of the Traveler?
Getting an Armbrace from a Coffer of Whispers?
Getting a Crystalline Sword from the chest in the Hall of Heroes?
Getting an everlasting tonic from the Zaishen chest?
Getting a Mini Polar Bear from the Wintersday chest?
Getting a Frog Scepter from Bogroot Growths?
Getting a Voltaic Spear from Slavers’ Exile?
Getting a Bone Dragon Staff?

People were fine with gambling for rare items in GW1. Now that they can see each other whining about it on official forums, they all seem to feel entitled to all rare items with no gambling and little effort.

Were these things sold in a cash shop?

dahkot.3579:

Snerf.1650:

Varen.8507:

Snerf.1650:

Varen.8507:

Lol I think I like this thread more than the other one. I agree with the OP. People can try to argue about gambling issues or legality like in the other thread. What it comes down to is “I want something, and it seems like I can’t get it w/o more effort than I want to put it”. QQ

That’s not the case, but I guess feel free to oversimplify something and miss the point.

At the core, this is the issue. You can try to dress it up with whatever you want, but in the end if there wasn’t something here that you wanted it wouldn’t be an issue. You wouldn’t have came to the forum to complain about it.

Wrong again. I’m arguing based on principle. It’s something that those of us who have morals and strong opinions do on a regular basis.

Sorry , your own “morals” don’t make gambling wrong or right. There are millions in the world who enjoy it in lots of forms , and it will probably anger you to find out that plenty don’t mind it in an online game either.

You don’t have some moral high ground because you don’t like the practice.

There is a reason real governments have gambling laws. Because it’s not just another neutral practice. It’s a predatory practice that exploits people’s addictive behaviour to get them to spend more money for a good or service than they would directly spend on the good or service.

Spendrik.2961:

Snerf.1650:

Varen.8507:

Snerf.1650:

Varen.8507:

Lol I think I like this thread more than the other one. I agree with the OP. People can try to argue about gambling issues or legality like in the other thread. What it comes down to is “I want something, and it seems like I can’t get it w/o more effort than I want to put it”. QQ

That’s not the case, but I guess feel free to oversimplify something and miss the point.

At the core, this is the issue. You can try to dress it up with whatever you want, but in the end if there wasn’t something here that you wanted it wouldn’t be an issue. You wouldn’t have came to the forum to complain about it.

Wrong again. I’m arguing based on principle. It’s something that those of us who have morals and strong opinions do on a regular basis.

You’re coming from a weird moralistic angle, or at least trying to impose your world view on things that are wholly out of your control, ie. Anet’s design and intent.

But I guess any feedback is good feedback, since getting shinies in a video game may be important enough for some to behave irrationally, or have strong views about.

I don’t see it being odd to expect a company to conduct business in a healthy way that puts customers above shady money.

Would you rather they offer x item for y gems or offer z% of getting x item for y gems? One is straightforward, one seeks to exploit addictive personalities.

Spendrik.2961:

My momma used to say: Only gamble when you’re prepared to lose your money.

I think some people are confusing ‘gambling’ with ‘purchasing’.

Those of us trying make points are simply saying that gambling has no place here.

Period. Take out the gamble and you will see far fewer complaints.

Varen.8507:

Snerf.1650:

Varen.8507:

Lol I think I like this thread more than the other one. I agree with the OP. People can try to argue about gambling issues or legality like in the other thread. What it comes down to is “I want something, and it seems like I can’t get it w/o more effort than I want to put it”. QQ

That’s not the case, but I guess feel free to oversimplify something and miss the point.

At the core, this is the issue. You can try to dress it up with whatever you want, but in the end if there wasn’t something here that you wanted it wouldn’t be an issue. You wouldn’t have came to the forum to complain about it.

Wrong again. I’m arguing based on principle. It’s something that those of us who have morals and strong opinions do on a regular basis.

Varen.8507:

Lol I think I like this thread more than the other one. I agree with the OP. People can try to argue about gambling issues or legality like in the other thread. What it comes down to is “I want something, and it seems like I can’t get it w/o more effort than I want to put it”. QQ

That’s not the case, but I guess feel free to oversimplify something and miss the point.

HornetOne.1640:

Snerf.1650:

They are right though. They are arguing from a design stance. Math has nothing to do with it. They, and I, feel that cash shop RNG has no place in providing goodies for GW2 events like this.

That is a fair argument, but if that’s what a person feel, and I do to, then he shouldn’t spend any money on the keys in the first place. Participating in something we disagree with is just not the right way.

I don’t like the idea so I am not participating in it. If everyone does the same, then we are sending Anet a message.

The problem is those who are willing to take the risk, but complains when the outcome doesn’t favor them. They need to understand that anything that works by chance cannot have any guarantee even by sheer number of tries.

I agree with most of this, and also have no contributed money to the practice.

However, I believe that like most circumstances in life, people that disagree fundamentally with a practice must speak up about it. If we don’t do that, no one is going to do that for us.

We are trying to tell Anet with our words and our wallet that this business practice is poor. There are ways to make money for the company while treating customers well with positive and transparent business practices.

HornetOne.1640:

Kimbald.2697:

It’s also a ‘hoot’ that those defending the game are ignoring the fact so many paying customers were severly disapointed.

This is beyond right or wrong: it’s bad business to kitten of those customers who pay the most…

You might disagree with the complaints, you’re very entitled to do so.

But if you think that that makes the problem less, than you’re mistaken.
If something stirs up so much complaints with your most paying customers, than you did something wrong as a company.
Reputation is everything for an MMO.

People are disappointed because they are not mathematically literate.

Its not their fault to a certain extend, but it doesn’t make them right.

They are right though. They are arguing from a design stance. Math has nothing to do with it. They, and I, feel that cash shop RNG has no place in providing goodies for GW2 events like this.

@Spendrik I’m not sure what that has to do with topic. Are you implying that as the event goes on, they will make the same items obtainable through other means?

Nothing would indicate that this is true. Thus, commenting now is better than waiting until later.

Spendrik.2961:

I don’t get it. Players decide to throw good money after bad over some pixels, then decide that Anet, a profit-driven enterprise when I last checked, is doing the wrong thing?

I’ve thrown no $ into this. I’m arguing that philosophically it is a negative and predatory business practice.

There are ways of making money that don’t resort to gambling. Just offer the skins for a fixed set of gems. PROBLEM SOLVED.

dahkot.3579:

HEY , PIT BOSS , get OVER HERE.

I just bet even , then red , then odd , then 37 , then 1st 12 , then 00 green.

NONE OF THEM WON , GIMME MY MONEY BACK !!!

/stomp foot

/stomp foot

/cry

/stomp foot

GW2 is not Vegas. It’s not a casino. Trying to turn it into a casino is absolutely abhorrent. Halloween is not about gambling, so why make it so the event’s neatest goodies are only accessible through real money mystery box gambling?

Akhet.6527:

Uh what? I didn’t see anything demeaning in OP’s post.

He wasn’t overtly rude to anyone, didn’t call anyone out, or anything of the sort. He thanked Anet for the way they set up the event because he likes it that way. He could have easily gone off the deep end but he didn’t.

Pretty sure I’m reading the same post as the rest of you.

You may not like or agree with what he said but he was never “insulting” about it.

The post title literally called everything that has an issue, the “gimme gimme crowd”

Not only is that false, it’s a direct insult.

dahkot.3579:

Ah, so now they are blaming ArenaNet for their addiction to gambling.

Holy kitten , just when the whiners couldn’t get even more silly , they do.

ArenaNet , this is the best holiday event ever , the bonuses get better and better.

You can’t argue with science dude. It is a bad practice. Anet should be better than that and take a stand against unhealthy and predatory business practices.

It’s not whining to ask people to be better.

Coregrin.6150:

Denial of Service. Yes, you’re entitled to complain. His point was that he’s sick of reading about it. There’s a reason you don’t see a complaint department at a casino. People who spent money knowingly on RNG and expected a guaranteed result are the very definition of a sucker. The right to whine doesn’t make you right.

But we are also allowed to complain that holiday items (or other in game things) should be more accessible through gameplay means, rather than gamble boxes.

GW2 isn’t a casino. A better comparison would be if your grocery store had grab bags that have a 1% chance of food and a 99% chance to contain dirt. You bet people would complain if that was the only way of getting a particular type of fruit.