Guild Wars 2

DPS is not everything, I think there are too many people who think this is the be all and end all but it is not… as pointed out you do not have to play as a Necro.

As for holding ppl back and not giving any (wanted) support, that is down to the particular group you are playing with and their personalities. If you enjoy playing a particular way and it achieves the goals you set yourself it should not matter what others think.

Personally, I think Elitist criticism of (or prejudice against) other players (be it build, kit, or anything else) should be considered a reportable offence with the potential of repeat offenders being banned.

starlinvf.1358:

WSG Delen.9203:

IMO Subordinates in general are not broken:-

• Ranger pets work fine (sometimes a greater degree of control would be nice)
• Mesmer illusions seem to work fine
• Elemental elementals work ok but perhaps could do with some buffing perhaps
• Necromancer minions seem to work ok (or at least as well as they did in the original GW)
• Other non-profession specific summons seem to do what they say on the tin but perhaps could do with a bit of buffing

All summons, minions, illusions are notionally primarily time limited attack multipliers and that is their intended purpose AFAIK. Given this, the current level of control of them is probably fine (assuming they only attack what the summoner targets or in self defence – c/f the original GW IIRC).

If specific support skills do not appear to be working as expected then there could be bugs for those specific skills but I have not noted any such problems myself yet.

You only think that because you see them as additive. For Rangers their integral….. and if you ask any class in the game, having something integral to your class being largely unreliable is the fastest way to having it side lined.

The reason Mesmer don’t care is because illusions are disposable, as well as ammo. They only need to survive the few seconds required to proc damage, then activate a shatter.

Eles don’t care because they only add to the already insane damage potential the class has. Their Elite skills are also the least crucial to their builds, giving them free slot for whatever seems useful.

But then you have the Necro, Guardian, and again Rangers. With a set of disposable minions which are designed as anything but, each has a build thats heavily marginalized because they require uptime to be effective, yet the core element of it has no inherent durability, and almost no option to significantly improve it.

I find my Ranger’s pet durability perfectly fine (they are not immortal and I do not expect them to be but they survive well enough for the purposes I use them for in the main)… as for Necros/Guardians there are more ways to play them that do not rely on minions if you find the way that minions are implemented not fit for your particular play style.

If you have a square peg and it won’t fit in the round hole you do not change the hole to fit the peg you either find the right shaped peg or the right shaped hole.

I do not deny that there are at least some cases where minion behaviour/control could perhaps be improved but it is far from broken.

Not everything in GW2 needs to fit into a meta-build pigeon hole…

It is the meta-build elitists that can not see past their noses IMO

MattyP.6954:

…
Necro is far from useless in PvE and WvWvW, and can provide plenty of support as is.

Honestly though, I don’t really care about the top tier meta or Dungeon Speed Clearing. Necromancer is fun for me, so I play it. If it’s not fun for you, then there’s plenty of other classes.

Could not agree more, the same could be said about complaints about the other professions (and specific builds) too. There seems to be too much projection of expectations on given professions IMO, it seems to be primarily due to a kind of Elitism that ruins MMOs in general on the whole.

Providing we can play at least 1 profession in a way that we individually find fun and sufficiently rewarding then there is no problem as I see it.

IMO Subordinates in general are not broken:-

• Ranger pets work fine (sometimes a greater degree of control would be nice)
• Mesmer illusions seem to work fine
• Elemental elementals work ok but perhaps could do with some buffing perhaps
• Necromancer minions seem to work ok (or at least as well as they did in the original GW)
• Other non-profession specific summons seem to do what they say on the tin but perhaps could do with a bit of buffing

All summons, minions, illusions are notionally primarily time limited attack multipliers and that is their intended purpose AFAIK. Given this, the current level of control of them is probably fine (assuming they only attack what the summoner targets or in self defence – c/f the original GW IIRC).

If specific support skills do not appear to be working as expected then there could be bugs for those specific skills but I have not noted any such problems myself yet.

See this thread for an existing discussion about the price and the inclusion of core GW2, in short the current state of play is:-

1. HoT for new accounts gives full access to the GW2 world as it stands
2. HoT for existing accounts gives you the new HoT exclusive features/content (and an extra character slot – at least under some circumstances)

My understanding is that without HoT your game will not evolve beyond the current world state except where changes tweak features/content you already have access to. That means (assuming you do not get HoT) you would not get:-

1. Access to Guild Halls
2. Revenant Profession
3. Elite Specialisations (e.g. Druid, Chronomancer, Tempest, etc)
4. Masteries (e.g. Hand Gliding)
5. Any further living story progression

There may be even more content/features you would miss out on and it is unclear if any of the above features will be even partially available to non-HoT accounts (but I believe they are not even partially available).

If you pick the right pets and trait a certain way then the pets can be a useful if not slightly OP tool for a ranger. Personally, I would expect the Druid trait line and skills to at least complement usage of a pet if not enhance it.

If you can’t control your pet or find it a liability with things as they currently are then perhaps you should not be playing as a ranger. It is a bit like in the original GW where some people have the mind set to play a monk while others do not (I was really in the latter category and I am not afraid to admit it).

That is not to say there is only one way to trait for a pet or effectively use it but rather that they can have a high degree of utility. They may die on occasion but strategic swapping of pets can avoid a large portion of the pet deaths (there are some situations where pet death is inevitable though but that does not mean they are necessarily a liability).

Pets are a useful tool IME, but A-Net could allow us more control over them (e.g. if they are put away give the player the ability to prevent auto-deployment when attacked/damaged)

Edimaru.5392:

I hope they dont have pets at all. Maybe then people will let rangers/druids into dungeons.

If half the rangers actually learned to control their pets and use their skills appropriately there would probably not be an issue. Probably at least half of this can probably be laid at the feet of the meta-builds and at least some players using them without learning how they should be used. Personally, I do not adhere to the meta-build philosophy and use hand crafted builds that I find works for the way I want to play.

Rangers have always been prejudiced against from certain quarters of the community since the original GW though, possibly in part due to bots using them alot. There is no excuse for such prejudice IMO and I consider such prejudice as bad as (if not worse than) PvP griefing.

P2P MMOs are a bad thing in general IMO – I will NEVER support any kind of P2P gaming regardless of how much I may enjoy the game in question.

Lack of subs does not cover the root cause of the majority of the complaints about GW2 changes since release IMO. The root causes are more to do with notionally controversial decisions and the lack of even the most simple of measures to mitigate them adequately. Not doing such things has very little (if anything at all) to do with not having the money IMO but probably more to do with a lack of willingness to admit when errors in judgement have been made.

While many of us may agree that there are issues with the current state of GW2 I strongly doubt we will all agree on what the solution should be. GW2 is not the only game that has fallen victim to issues with disconnect between customer/player views of what needs to be done and what the developer/publisher believes what needs to be done.

Oldirtbeard.9834:

You see my point though right, I mean this prepurchase is just a money grab, they have nothing concrete to really offer for the price to instill confidence they have anything remotely finished; this is basically like a Kick Starter campaign with a bad outline and no stretch goals for funding.

It is little different from any other pre-order I have ever come across though most of the time there is at least a provisional release date. The pre-order of HoT is more akin to Steam Early Access than Kick Starter.

I think Kick Starter projects have warped at least some people’s sense of reality. Kick Starter is a pure cash grab with no solid guarantees of getting anything at the end of it really. Then there is also the sense of over-entitlement which at least some Kick Starter investors develop if the product being invested in is released but that is not really a topic for this forum.

Pre-order of stuff (be it games, books, or anything else) is just a means for fans to show their (perhaps blind) commitment to buy the product when it is released. If an individual has any doubts over the value of the included content they do not have to pre-order it (or even buy it when it is released). I pre-ordered GW2 and after some hesitation I also pre-ordered HoT.

Pre-order is and always has been at least a bit of a gamble, and where HoT is concerned there are some solid indicators about what to expect of the delivered product but there are also lots of questions. If you don’t trust that what they are going to deliver is worth what they are asking you to pay then you do not have to pre-order it. The current level of information we have about HoT seems little different from the pre-order level of information there was about GW2 at the time.

Where existing long term (and non-direct sale) account holders are concerned, there is no time limit on the free (pre-order only?) character slot AFAIK so there is no hurry on that score.

Oldirtbeard.9834:

WSG Delen.9203:

BilboBaggins.5620:

Miriam.2506:

Seeing the little progress made from first closed beta to this beta is very bad. It just seems nothing is done and things that got finished worked several times, with developers needed at other places.

What I see and played didn’t changed anything inside my mind to still say it’s still not worth money at all and things people wanted to come back still ignored. Sure BETA development, but the core game shouldn’t be dead by this years they take.

Compare with a car factory. Developing a new models of cars, all production of old cars is stopped because we need all for the new. Selling none of the old as long as the new ready will force the factory to close. Because people want to buy even if older instead of waiting for a ghost inside a long dark future, nobody knows if it ever happens.

People really need to read this and think hard about this. They’ve had nearly THREE YEARS and the beta seems anemic and rushed! They can keep the paltry extra character slot, the only way I’ll even consider HoT is at a severe discount.

Without knowing the details of manpower and the code the amount of time a developer spends developing something is irrelevant. There are no hard rules over how long software takes to develop.

Well what I can see is a laundry list of features…

That is all any of us can see, too often on Internet forums I have seen arguments about rate of progress and how it should be faster by people that are notionally outside of the black-box that is the development process for the product in question.

Without knowing the details of the underlying software architecture or code (and the manpower involved), it could take anywhere from a few minutes to weeks/months to add a single skill for all we know.

Where Beta’s are concerned, we only see what they want to (or feel are ready to) expose to us and not necessarily all of what is being or has been developed.

We have only had one PUBLIC Beta Weekend event to date AFAIK, progress can only really be legitimately be measured/assessed from this point onwards and without a formal release date we have no idea about the LOE remaining. I would personally expect a formal release date to be announced by A-Net 3-6 months before the actual release date though (perhaps sooner depending on the level and trust in schedule planning and the tactical business choices A-Net/NC Soft are making).

I should add that this is speculation based on my own knowledge and experience of the software industry in general and I am not affiliated with nor have any insider knowledge of A-Net nor NC Soft.

I know a number of players who would probably drop GW2 like a molten-hot-lead-brick if a sub was introduced… I would wager it would kill GW2.

Yes – No subs is not a favour it is a business decision but subs do not necessarily increase income for a product and more money does not necessarily equate to a faster delivered or better product.

IMO The only sub that might be a good idea for GW2 would be one that equates to a monthly income of Gems at a discounted rate (say 10% more gems for the sub versus one off Gems purchase).

I am not 100% clear on what WvW changes are coming but…

IMO keep the general concept of WvW but change it so the World is dictated by the Guild you are representing at the time. The Guild leader or their delegate would select the World for the guild. In addition add (or lower) World based player count limits to Borderlands to prevent more heavily populated servers from being able to blob overwhelm less populated ones. This would allow for the skill of the players participating to become more relevant and make it easier for guilds to manage their recruiting for WvW.

Increasing rewards for defending borderlands may help too.

BilboBaggins.5620:

Miriam.2506:

Seeing the little progress made from first closed beta to this beta is very bad. It just seems nothing is done and things that got finished worked several times, with developers needed at other places.

What I see and played didn’t changed anything inside my mind to still say it’s still not worth money at all and things people wanted to come back still ignored. Sure BETA development, but the core game shouldn’t be dead by this years they take.

Compare with a car factory. Developing a new models of cars, all production of old cars is stopped because we need all for the new. Selling none of the old as long as the new ready will force the factory to close. Because people want to buy even if older instead of waiting for a ghost inside a long dark future, nobody knows if it ever happens.

People really need to read this and think hard about this. They’ve had nearly THREE YEARS and the beta seems anemic and rushed! They can keep the paltry extra character slot, the only way I’ll even consider HoT is at a severe discount.

Without knowing the details of manpower and the code the amount of time a developer spends developing something is irrelevant. There are no hard rules over how long software takes to develop.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Vayne.8563:

You get the core game free EVEN IF YOU HAVE GUILD WARS 2.

You can start a brand new account with the core game and the update, just like any new player.

If you’re not willing to give up your progress, then you should understand why it’s so hard for people to start playing an MMO years in. They’re really far behind.

Anet is trying to remove barriers to entry. WoW does this. EQ does this. This is logical and good business.

But this also benefits players who are already here. Veteran players need new people coming into the game, or their won’t one day be a game.

Seems to me the OP doesn’t really understand the business. Five, six years from now should we make people buy 4 games to get into Guild Wars 2?

By giving new players more than I get for my money (as HoT is 90% GW2 10% expansion) Anet is creating a barrier because I won’t buy it. I haven’t posted in awhile or played for that matter which is a shame since I’ve enjoyed this game.

Many are happy to throw money away but I won’t. Don’t mistake that a lack of anti HoT posting means players have given in, some have simply left.

Where HoT is concerned there is simply not enough public information to reasonably justify people being completely anti but that is not to say I do not understand the reservations of the sceptics.

A-Net have made a complete mess of their marketing IMO, and there is another point that in a good number of single player game series cases buying the next title can be considered akin to buying HoT (in many cases the next game in the series is predominantly the previous title with some rework).

The argument that existing account holders could create new accounts and forfeit their accumulated in-game assets is ridiculous especially since it is marketed as an expansion and at least some may have invested real world money via the Gems store (not necessarily just relatively rich people but possibly also some less affluent who effectively received Gems as gifts for special occasions). If it were marketed as a completely new game we would be on a different ball game.

The issue with the imbalance in VFM between new and existing account holders has been addressed by A-Net granting an additional character slot to existing account holders that purchase HoT (perhaps only pre-purchase but we will have to wait and see). I know not everyone is happy with the approach A-Net have taken on this but at least it acts as a reasonable show of good will on A-Net’s part and we are unlikely to get anything more than that.

I have questioned the legality (based on UK/EU laws and regulations) of what A-Net have done by bundling GW2 with HoT, not licensing it separately, and still charging the same price whether you already have GW2 or not. However, given the account slot being granted to existing players I think they have addressed the imbalance to a sufficient degree that fighting it from a legal standpoint could be ultimately futile.

I suspect the HoT price would not be reduced even if the core game was not included which leads us really to the dispute of whether the content covered exclusively by HoT is actually worth the published price. A-Net really need to address this concern otherwise HoT (and possibly GW2 as a whole) could end up dead in the water (or at least not nearly as successful as it could have been) – especially given how unpopular some of their changes to core GW2 design decisions (inc. Mega-Server) seem to have been (at least in some circles).

More detailed information on the degree of game play expected to be granted by HoT content would possibly help with this. Based on what I have been hearing (from off-forum discussions) some of the simpler queries include:-

1. How much HoT exclusive living story can be expected?
2. How much of HoT content is truly exclusive to HoT? (there have been some mixed messages on this point)

I feel I must add that personally I do not care if A-Net answer such questions or not, but there are at least some who do not necessarily participate in these forums and are active GW2 players that do.

Chobits.2430:

If you don’t think that ANet has delivered $50 worth of value with the core game for the past 3 years, and you don’t think they will give you another 3 years worth of value for an additional $50, then don’t purchase the expansion and move onto another game.

I agree, and it can not be ignored that the apparent disparity in VFM between new/existing account holders has also been addressed by A-Net by giving existing account holders a new character slot if they have purchased HoT.

It would probably have been a lot easier on everyone if A-Net had followed a product model closer to the original GW where the expansions’ (Nightfall/Factions) creative content stood solidly apart from what was generally considered the core game. However, they have not done this and as a result debates such as these emerged.

That is not to say that those requesting more specifics on how buying HoT benefits existing players do not have a point though.

OwUrHurtingMe.1650:

I don’t understand why people are so peeved about the price. Eye of the North retailed at $40. Are people really complaining and threatening to leave the game because of a $10 difference? Or is it because we aren’t getting an extra account?

A-Net have addressed the New/Existing disparity issue, at least for pre-order and until HoT is released we do not know if/how they will be dealing with it post-release. I suspect they would be hard pressed to justify not including the character slot for existing accounts if new accounts still get the core game bundled effectively for free.

I think the main problem now is what at least some ppl are still unhappy about is paying a full game price for what they see as an uncertain degree of content. I would reckon A-Net would need to deliver new content that is worth at least 100hrs/character of gameplay under coverage of HoT for the price to be considered acceptable by many.

100hrs could equate to ~2hrs of non-rushed living story per week over the first year after release or be measured in some other way. However A-Net measure it, they probably need to be more specific on this score (a measure of the minimum amount of gameplay that can be expected from HoT and what general form that gameplay is planned to take) before those that are still complaining about the apparent “lack of information” are likely to be appeased.

As I see it, the current situation for existing GW2 account holders is comparable to A-Net dropping development of improvements (no more new living story, maps, nor features) to the game and reducing the price of buying the base game to £10.

If they actually did that and relabelled GW2:HoT to GW3:HoT and set up new servers exclusively for the HoT players I suspect there would have been much more (or at least the same degree) of an outcry over the situation.

As it stands, buying into HoT is like buying the next book in a series of epic novels (at least as I see it). By making HoT an expansion to the legacy GW2 game existing players at least get to continue to benefit from their accrued in-game assets in the new title.

What other games do or don’t do is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, if we individually think HoT is worth the money then we will buy it if not then we won’t. Complaining about the pricing is not going to change how much it is valued at by the developers. The inequality of VFM between new and existing account holders was worthy of being addressed though.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

This issue has reached even kitten germany already…
http://captiongenerator.com/46396/Hitler-reacts-to-HOT-pricing

While amusing is not 100% accurate…

The base GW2 game is essentially legacy material now and is probably only worth the local equivalent of around 10 UKP (the lowest sale price for the game as I understand it).

As for those of us that have owned GW2 since pre-order of GW2, we have probably each had over 1000hrs of play time out of it which is not bad for the local equivalent of 65 UKP (GW2 Digital Deluxe pre-order price).

The free character slot may not make all veteran players feel they have been dealt with as they would have liked but I believe it is a fair and reasonable attempt (and most courts of law would probably agree) by A-Net to redress the sense of inequality between New and Existing account holders.

slayerking.3581:

If I was to buy the expansion today it would cost me $135.91 that’s for the ultimate version, The middle version would cost me $101.92. Whoever made these prices is crazy.

It is priced at normal price for a full game, whether it will be worth it in the long run only time will tell.

As I understand it with HoT we get:-

1. Masteries – e.g. Hand Gliding
2. All Elite Specialisations – e.g. Druid, Chronomancer, etc
3. New Profession – Revenant
4. Guild Hall access
5. New Living Story Content which is expected to be (at least primarily) HoT PvE exclusive area based

If any of us do not get HoT then they can still participate in current GW2 gameplay but I would not expect non-HoT users to have access to any new living story content, or the other stuff mentioned above.

Pre-order allows us to participate in the Public Beta events and gives an extra character slot if you already own GW2 and add it to that account (at least as I understand it – not sure if the extract character slot for existing account holders is pre-order only).

Jinath.1298:

As for Heart of Thorns, if you are a ‘new’ player you get a great bonus which is a ‘free’ GW2 core game! Kudos!
If you are a veteran player who has already paid for the core game, then all you get is the HoT expansion. If you’re fine with that then kudos to you too.

People can spend or ‘not spend’ their money however they want. I’m only trying to educate you that there are better alternatives to the way Anet is handling this particular expansion release.

Truly, the best course of action would be to wait until the expansion goes on sale and buy it then:)

Actually, you seem to be mis-informed. As I understand it, if an existing account holder pre-orders HoT they will at some point get a free character slot which is notionally of equivalent monetary value to the cheapest sale price of the Core game.

If you wait till release, then you may miss out on the deal although personally I think A-Net should make it part of an explicit upgrade package. Same price just different target audiences.

Kitsune.1902:

Doesn’t really matter how you want to twist it, the fact is the deal is significantly better for new players, than it is for existing players. And it’s plain and obvious that it’s deliberately made to be so. That’s where the feelings of unfairness come from.

It depends on what you call significant, if we assign a value of say 800 gems/10 UKP to the core game (which is the lowest price I have heard of it being sold at) then for pre-orders A-Net have addressed the imbalance in VFM between new/existing account holders by promising an additional character slot for existing account holders who pre-order HoT.

While the additional character slot (worth 800 gems) may not be what some people would have wanted it does represent a show of good faith on A-Net’s part to try to redress the VFM imbalance. It also leaves the post-release situation imbalanced for existing players who decide to wait to buy HoT after it has been released/reviewed.

The secondary debate of overall VFM with relation to the HoT content (which affects both new and existing players equally) is an interesting one and but generally pointless since I doubt A-Net are going to budge on the price regardless of our opinions on the matter.

BlazingZero.9702:

Now come on, even if us veteran players pre-purchase HoT, what are we getting? An extra character slot. A freaking extra character slot. How much does that cost? 800 gems or 10 USD. Does this 800 gems mean anything to a veteran player who started playing since 2012 or even 2014? I don’t think so.

The base GW2 has been selling in the sales for about that kind of value, and an extra character slot means you would not have to throw away any pre-existing characters you may have invested ALOT of time into so you can create a new character with the new Revenant class they are introducing.

Providing the free character slot is offered to existing account holders for atleast a period of time (say 1-3months) beyond the release of HoT (assuming core game is always going to be included) then I think they are being pretty fair and reasonable.

By agreeing to add a character slot to existing veteran (and indirect sale) accounts that register the pre-ordered HoT content they have effectively addressed the underlying perceived VFM disparity between new and existing accounts.

WRT HoT as a product, they have probably erred linguistically in calling it an expansion or even an upgrade. What they probably should have done is sell both GW2 and HoT as a notionally time-limited service contract (preferably of specified duration) wrt the development of Living World content with the base software/content effectively being considered 0 value but not free to acquire/distribute. At least some of the new base features/maps could be considered an incentive for existing players to buy into the new Living World contract of service. The existing world will still be there but as the previous Living World contract of service has been deemed to have expired they are no longer committed to develop/enhance the content exclusive to the previous world. In order to benefit from the new improvements you would need to buy into the next Living World contract of service. It is kind of like pay-to-play but not, your account is perpetual and you can continue to benefit from any content existing at the end of the contract. Under such terms though, new players could be seen as being treated unfairly if they buy into the contract say half way through the notional contract term.

The situation is probably very complicated (in terms of what we are actually paying for) but ultimately providing both new and existing customers are seen as being treated equally the exact details are irrelevant. However, access to Guild Halls becomes a bit of a sticking point if non-HoT account holders can not access them since A-Net seemingly promised Guild Halls to those that bought into the original GW2 when it was first released.

Guilds currently effectively get paid by you earning Influence for them during normal play while representing them. That influence then gets converted into upgrades and other Guild produced consumables (e.g. Guild Missions and booster Flags).

From my perspective Guild Banks and Stashes/Troves are for storage of donations that may help fellow guild members. Donations should be completely optional and I feel no guild should impose limitations such as you must meet a certain Influence quota over a specified period or even enforce donation requirements.

I kind of get the idea of recognising guild members who contribute heavily to a guild in some way and being able to have tools in the guild configuration to reward them accordingly but arguably that is handled to a large degree by the Guild Roster and promotion.

Strictly speaking only A-Net benefit from new players buying the game in the strictest sense (new players = new potential customers for in-game content revenue streams – i.e. the Gems store). While new players also means new potential recruits for guilds that does not have a tangible value associated with it as there are no guarantees that existing guilds would benefit from an influx of new players.

The problem is not strictly speaking with new players getting the core game for free but rather with new players getting the core game for free and there being no tangible and equal benefit for existing players paying the same amount of real world cash and consequently an overall perceived imbalance in VFM.

The problem is more to do with A-Net not treating all customers equally both new and existing. I think we all can appreciate that A-Net can not work or produce content pro-bono forever but that does not mean they should fleece us either, by delivering the Core Game for free for new account holders only and selling the HoT packages to BOTH groups for the same price the perception is that the existing customers are not being given the same value for money on the same deal. It does not matter whether the Core Game is priced in bundle terms at the free price point or not, the existing player base believe it still has a value.

Even disregarding the Core Game for Free issue, the price point values of the Standard/Deluxe versions are questionable with the Ultimate being perhaps the only price point actually approaching value for money.

1. Standard at £35
2. Deluxe at £60 with about £10 or less worth of substance and some fluff/kudos items
3. Ultimate at £80 with about £50 worth of substance and some fluff/kudos items

All versions with the Core Game (ROM Value £10 based on recent sales) to NEW account holders ONLY. This equates to in value for money terms…

1. HoT being at £20 for Ultimate for new account holders
2. HoT being at £25 for Standard for new account holders
3. HoT being at £30 for Ultimate for existing account holders
4. HoT being at £35 for Standard for existing account holders
5. HoT being at £40 for Deluxe for new account holders
6. HoT being at £50 for Deluxe for existing account holders

This changes slightly if the Fluff/Kudos items are truly worth £20/1600 Gems/200 Gold (based on GW2 exchange rates at last check) or more…

• Minature Revenant Rylock
• Revenant Finisher
• Mordremoth’s Bane Guild Hall Decoration
• Heart of Thorns Glider Skin

Ok, I have bought the HoT but that does not mean I am happy with the state of play nor consider it fair and reasonable. An equitable answer would be for A-Net to offer in-game content of substance as reasonable compensation to help balance the scales a bit. A suitable settlement in my mind would be something of the order of a character slot for ALL existing account holders that did not benefit from the Core Game allegedly being included as advertised – even just 400 Gems (or 50 Gold) to existing account holders might help to sooth the tempers of those that feel the state of play is unfair.

And WRT sales figures, a good will gesture that has only a notionally infinitely renewable non-capital cost impact now (e.g. GEMs) should not detrimentally effect the annual/quarterly sales figures (in fact it would probably do the opposite) but the absence of it will almost certainly have long term repercussions to profits received on such items in the future based on what I have been reading in this thread.

Gray.9041:

WSG Delen.9203:

1. The store does not explicitly state (only if you don’t already have the game)

• the hover text does say account creation or upgrade, but it doesn’t make clear that existing players lose the free core game. shaky, but worth noting.

WSG Delen.9203:

1. No separate key is delivered for the core game if you do buy it thus you could not add HoT to an existing account and create a separate Core-Only game account using the second key

• this is one of the things that really gets to me about the whole debacle.

WSG Delen.9203:

1. Given the above two sub-points A-Net could be considered in technical breach of (at least) UK law/regulations

• I’m no expert, but if you had more information on this, it’d be interesting to see. being a skritt to your fanbase is one thing. violation of legislation is a whole other kettle of fish.

I am no expert either but common sense indicates this falls under the category of “Product not meeting Product Description” under the UK’s Trade Description Act and possibly falls foul of other regulations too.

BrotherBelial.3094:

WSG Delen.9203:

Ok, I have relented and bought HoT both for myself and my pal BUT neither of us received a CD Key for the base game. While this may be of limited use as both of us already own the base game having the CD Key would have allowed us to have second accounts. Given the store clearly states “includes Guild Wars 2 core game” they are in contempt of the trade description act in the UK by not delivering CD Keys for the Core Game.

It dose say for new players. And this is what some of the kitten storm is about.

Actually on the Store page it does not…

Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion(includes Guild Wars 2 core game)

Thus by strict interpretation of UK regulations they are in technical breach.

There are the following main issues in play here:-

1. The price of the expansion and questions over it’s value (based on what I have heard from a certain source this could be a valid argument)
   1. No additional character slots (other than a Beta participant slot) included in the base version of the expansion (regardless of the bundling of the core game)
   2. Historically, with GW1 expansions 2 additional slots were included with each expansion (IIRC)
2. The bundling of the core game for free (which apparently is only a pre-order special deal)
   1. The store does not explicitly state (only if you don’t already have the game)
   2. No separate key is delivered for the core game if you do buy it thus you could not add HoT to an existing account and create a separate Core-Only game account using the second key
   3. Given the above two sub-points A-Net could be considered in technical breach of (at least) UK law/regulations
3. Guild Halls are exclusive to HoT thus it holds guild leaders (who reasonably expected Halls to be part of the core game based on what A-Net previously said) to ransom
   1. One of the primary reasons I bought it for myself and my pal.

Yes – including the core game (apparently for free) is a bit of a crappy move but apparently refunds have been offered to players who bought the game in (roughly) the past month (based on what I have heard). This is exasperated by not actually delivering a separate key for the base game which could have utility to existing account holders by allowing them to create an additional account with 4 characters that could be used almost purely for storage for example.

Personally, I put the current situation down to incompetence on the part of management at A-Net rather than malice or intentionally unethical behaviour which could be in technical breach of regional law/regulations.

Overall, I think we all need to decide if we are going to buy it and either buy it or forget about it as I doubt A-Net are going to change the status quo… Although, I wish they would and compensate owners of HoT appropriately (e.g. either delivery of core game keys to those that have bought HoT, while it included the core game, or some kind of in-game compensation to those that added HoT to an existing account).

Ok, I have relented and bought HoT both for myself and my pal BUT neither of us received a CD Key for the base game. While this may be of limited use as both of us already own the base game having the CD Key would have allowed us to have second accounts. Given the store clearly states “includes Guild Wars 2 core game” they are in contempt of the trade description act in the UK by not delivering CD Keys for the Core Game.

Barry Moonfang.6897:

…

I’ve played GW2 since release and am still very happy with my purchase. But i’m not willing to buy HoT with a core game that I can’t use. If I can get a bonus character slot instead of the (extra) core game I would have bought the game yesterday.

Right now, i’m not sure what to do. I’ll just keep waiting for Anet to respond

Hit the nail on the head here, similarly for me. The whole situation just does not seem to sit right with me. Especially since I know at least one person who would have to dish out for an extra character slot in order to make a new character with the new Revenant class and they can’t even really afford to dish out for the base package. If I end up getting HoT myself, I may get a base edition copy for them too BUT it still does not sit right with me.

People talk about people feeling “entitled” but everyone has the right to be dealt with fairly and reasonably including A-Net as an entity. As it currently stands though, it seems that A-Net are not being fair to existing account holders. It is less about entitlement and more about business ethics IMO.

A simple (and perhaps fair-ish) answer would be that if you have two GW2 base game keys associated with a single account you get double the starting character slots (an additional 4 slots for existing account holders).

If they want to meet their projections then I suspect they will have to give some additional freebies to existing account holders otherwise they may not hit their financial targets… GW2 may die as a consequence of existing players holding out for additional in-game compensation to existing account holders for buying HoT but if that is the case then so be it… they are not the only game on the block.

temerity.7824:

First, $50 is within the mmo industry standard for expansions. That’s just the way it is and anyone who suggests otherwise is completely ignorant about the state of the industry. Don’t like it? Tough kitten. The truth of the matter is Heart of Thorns will be effectively one of the cheapest modern MMO expansions on the market since it doesn’t require you to purchase the base game or pay a sub fee.

Second, you don’t have to pre-order and no-one is asking you to pre-order. Don’t think it has enough content? That’s fine, but we don’t know everything that’s going to be in the game yet (probably won’t until launch, another pattern in the MMO industry). So settle the kitten down.

The only reasonable request is a character slot be included with the base version of Heart of Thorns. But guess what – that’s all it is, a reasonable request.

Basically, in this thread: Entitled people whining that new players are getting the game cheaper than they got it 3 years ago

It is not about entitlement… Personally, I think the earlier post about pricing fairness (people who paid for A getting B at the same price as people buying A+B when A is still being sold at full price) had at least part of it right… the other part is what has also been said about the content being of questionable value for the price and there being no additional slots for existing owners in the base version.

In addition there is another element, due to Guild Halls being part of the package it does also kind of feel like holding the Guild Leaders to ransom as some guilds may start to falter if the leader does not get the expansion and so is at least unable to visit (nor possibly contribute to) the Guild Hall.

Fairness is ultimately what is being asked for and the current situation is damaging to the good reputation A-Net started with the original Guild Wars. If at least the base package did not include the game for free, there would probably be ALOT less objections to the pricing strategy, a better option would have been to bundle the original Guild Wars for an extra £10 or to give £10 worth of Gems to pre-existing account holders if they buy HoT.

A hell of a way to alienate your existing customers A-Net…

I appreciate the fact that you are company and have to make money but charging what amounts to a full-game price for an expansion with content that does not appear to live up to the price seems like a greedy cash grab.

There should be at least some form of discount for existing players, after all it is supposed to be an expansion.