Guild Wars 2

Cerise.9045:

@aliquis
before you go about advocating corporate greed and cash grabbing read this
http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success

But what if your business model isn’t based on a subscription? What if your content-design motivations aren’t driven by the need to create mechanics that keep people playing as long as possible? When looking at content design for Guild Wars 2, we’ve tried to ask the question: What if the development of the game was based on…wait for it…fun?

Having event rewards be tied into participating in events = fun
Having event rewards be tied into entering your CC info = anti-fun

Having outfits in the cash store is fine, it’s great even. I bought outfits in GW1 and am doing it again in GW2. But the halloween weapon gambling? It averages out to about $70 per weapon skin, but it’s tied to a gambling system which entices people to keep trying and trying instead of offering as a directly purchasable skin. If they wanted the weapons to be rare they could have just as easily made it so you had to trade 250 of some soulbound event token in order to keep the item rare.

All I said is that a high quality product that is expensive to make is worth paying for. The fact that you twisted that into me advocating corporate greed says much more about you than it does me.

Cerise.9045:

@everyone saying “it’s perfectly fine for all the rewards to be cash based because you don’t have to spend cash if you don’t want to”

Events are supposed to be fun. Why do you want that fun tainted by having all of the event rewards locked away behind real money barriers? Do you really prefer playing a game where you only get rewarded by entering your CC info, when you could be playing the same game but get rewards from actually playing the game?

Some people think “well, the items are supposed to be rare”, and they’re absolutely right. But items can be rare without requiring cash stores. Other MMOs have had incredibly rare items that didn’t require a cash store involved at all for over 10 years. Why do you want GW2 to use anti-fun methods for getting rare items instead of using methods that promote having fun?

Developing a game of the size and quality of Guild Wars 2 is immensely expensive. The latest figures I was able to find on the internet were that it costs $100,000,000 + to make a game like this, another $100,000,000 to market it, and many millions more to keep it up.

There is a limited number of ways to get this money to come in. Monthly fees are one, pay to win is another. I don’t particularly mind either one, because I can afford it.

But GW2 was the first game I bought in several years because they promised a more player friendly shop, by selling only cosmetic and convenience items which are entirely voluntary. I support that effort and so far, they have kept their promise.

I find it assinine and foolish to attack Arenanet for making any money at all. If you prefer a different business model, then there are other choices out there for you in the market place. But if you expect a game developer to act like a charitable organization, then you need to wake up.

My hat off to all of you. I’m not going near the thing, because I didn’t even manage to jump into the cauldron after an hour of trying lol.

Leo, I have a feeling that by Christmas, we will all be chasing after a whole new set of items and these skins will be largely forgotten. I applaud your willingness to do what it takes to get the one you really want, but don’t make yourself miserable over it. Without a doubt there will be many more cool items to collect in the future and I bet that not all will require a grind.

Kolache.3964:

aliquis.9180:

Everyone can tell what’s in the chest simply by mousing over. The chance to get a skin is just an added bonus during Halloween.

I’m sorry, I thought we were talking about skins specifically, since they were obviously the only reason that people bought keys in the first place. I didn’t realize this was the rehashed “be happy you paid an amazing amount for candy corn” argument.

No, the argument is “you knew what was in the chests, don’t lash out at Arenanet just because you bought 100 of them and you now wish you hadn’t”.

And you need to pay better attention. The argument about candy corn was that it WASN’T in there, not that it WAS. That’s why Arenanet made the second round of chests allowing people to convert non Halloween contents in Halloween items.

Kolache.3964:

Artorous.8573:

A lot of complaining about the chests in this thread. Did you open the chest and get nothing, or did you get something you didn’t want? I’m fairly certain it’s the got something you didn’t want part. There was no guarantee you would open up a chest with complaining random list of items and get the one thing you were after. Go cry me a river. People complaining about the chests are nothing but cry babies. If you can show me 1 tiny bit of information where ANet said you were guaranteed the item you wanted and I’ll retract my statement.

So you really aren’t even sure what someone that is complaining here has experienced… you don’t know how much or how little they got… you don’t know what the drop rate is, other than it’s not 100%, and that’s all that matters… you don’t know anything other than you hate whiners and want to berate them. Does that about sum it up?

It was clearly a rhetorical question. Here’s a hint how to tell: because he answered it himself.

Everyone can tell what’s in the chest simply by mousing over. The chance to get a skin is just an added bonus during Halloween.

I would like to add my voice to this. The game world is spectacularly beautiful anyway and now with the festive decorations, even more than ever.

My favorite things: pumpkin carving, candy corn mining, trick or treat bags, the labyrinth, and the witch costume.

Lol. One or more threads about the labyrinth has been merged into this one, which was about the Black Lion chests.

Oopsie.

I enjoy doing it because the candy corn monsters are so adorable but I, too, missed out on the exotics and never got anything better than greens from the chests or monsters.

Taurethion.7302:

The dev who did the puzzle has stated it was intended only 5% of players finish, so I can’t help but think having to do it with other players is supposed to be part of the difficulty.

Seriously? Wow… Well I’m not going anywhere near it so that should please him.

Kolache.3964:

You might want to rethink that, actually, because the issue here is LUCK. And luck is a bit of an equalizer between rich and poor. While it is true that the ‘rich’ can sway the odds a bit in their favor, many of the complaints here on the forum come from the ‘rich’ who thought that they could brute force luck and failed. And as you can see, they are very, very angry about it because the rich are not used to being told “NO”.

Really? People can’t complain about buyers remorse without it degrading into posts that sound like an essay on marxism? Talk about over-thinking this stuff.

You are pushing your agenda very aggressively here and defend your right to do so. I would ask you to respect my right to give my viewpoint without labeling my post as degrading or marxist.

And you’re the one wanting Arenanet to hand out skins to everyone. So if anyone is a ‘commie’ here, that would be those on your side.

LightningLockey.5938:

More junk for the rich players… well at least ANet is being the same as every other company.

You might want to rethink that, actually, because the issue here is LUCK. And luck is a bit of an equalizer between rich and poor. While it is true that the ‘rich’ can sway the odds a bit in their favor, many of the complaints here on the forum come from the ‘rich’ who thought that they could brute force luck and failed. And as you can see, they are very, very angry about it because the rich are not used to being told “NO”.

Dinks.2478:

@Kimbald,

Alright, I’ll step back and change my opinion on the second chance part. I re-read some of anets postings on the matter. And it certainly did sound like they thought the chances were too low and then didn’t change them.

Afaik it had nothing to do with the odds. The issue they tried to correct was that the contents of the chests, other than the skins, were not Halloween themed. The second round of chests allowed you to convert your non Halloween themed contents into Halloween stuff.

MajorMelchett.6042:

aliquis.9180:

If you don’t like a dish at a restaurant, then the thing to do is not to order it in the future. Not making a big public scene in an effort to get them to take it off the menu and prevent everyone else from being able to enjoy it in the future.

I don’t see anyone asking for the chests to be removed (taking them off the menu), i see a lot of people simply not satisfied with them (be it with skin drop rate and/or even if the skins didn’t exist in them) and want them to be improved.

PS.
In the UK, if your not satisfied with a dish from a resturant (not as advertised, not satisfied, don’t think you got your moneys worth etc) you can actully refuse to pay the full price for it and it’s up to the resturant to persue you for the rest (court etc). You can’t be arrested for doing this as it’s a legal right we have as consumers.

If only this applied to chests, i got them and am simply not satisfied with what i got and i certainly don’t think i got my moneys worth, i’d happily pay for them BUT certainly not what i was charged (unfortunatly with chests you pay 1st).

There have been plenty of posts demanding that the chests be removed.

You can refuse to pay in a restaurant IF you didn’t get what was advertised. Because that is a breach of contract. The other reasons you stated may result in your getting charged with theft.

Kolache.3964:

aliquis.9180:

This is what supportive doesn’t look like: I didn’t win so I demand my money back and I hate Arenanet and the game.

Did you really see a lot of posts with people demanding their money back and/or saying they were done with the entire game? I’ve read an awful lot of complaints, and I think I only saw something along those lines a couple times.

So I’d look at it more like going to your favorite restaurant and telling them that their new dish really sucks.

If you don’t like a dish at a restaurant, then the thing to do is not to order it in the future. Not making a big public scene in an effort to get them to take it off the menu and prevent everyone else from being able to enjoy it in the future.

Hughs.6549:

Keep hating on the best paying and most supportive customers, all you’re doing is shooting yourself in the foot.

This is what supportive looks like: Hey I didn’t win but I am glad I supported a good company and a terrific game.

This is what supportive doesn’t look like: I didn’t win so I demand my money back and I hate Arenanet and the game.

Hughs.6549:

Why so many mindless fanboys ?? The people you’re hating on are the one that PAY and support arenanet with money that could be used to create new free content FOR YOU.

Gambling is programmed to make 99% of the customers unhappy, and give them a good reason to never do such a bad investment again, ever.

Gambling products are real poison for BOTH arenanet and the players, how’s that so hard to understand ?

Gambling is fun and entertaining when done RESPONSIBLY. It is up to the players to be RESPONSIBLE and only gamble the amount they are willing to lose. Gambling is NOT an INVESTMENT. If gambling is not fun for you, then stay away from it and don’t try to ruin the fun for everyone else.

Yoshihito.5928:

aliquis.9180:

Yoshihito.5928:

I don’t have the patience or time to really do those things TransparentlyOpaque.

And Nox, they may be a big company but if they are going to stay in business they have to learn to treat their customers better. I’ve already initiated a refund, I’m not going to be screwed over.

Deciding that a game is not worth playing because you didn’t win a skin is a little bit like deciding that life is not worth living because you didn’t win the Powerball.

When did I decide it’s not worth playing? I’ll still play the game, but I’m definitely not supporting them with my hard earned cash anymore.

I see, so you weren’t talking about getting a refund for the game, but a refund on the money you used to purchase gems, which you used to purchase keys, which you used to unlock boxes that contained exactly what they were supposed to contain, but not what you had hoped they would contain?

Having worked for a credit card company in the past, I can tell you that you won’t get a refund unless Arenanet decides that the amount involved isn’t worth fighting over or you’re such a big spender with your card that the credit card company decides to eat the loss to make you happy.

Yoshihito.5928:

I don’t have the patience or time to really do those things TransparentlyOpaque.

And Nox, they may be a big company but if they are going to stay in business they have to learn to treat their customers better. I’ve already initiated a refund, I’m not going to be screwed over.

Deciding that a game is not worth playing because you didn’t win a skin is a little bit like deciding that life is not worth living because you didn’t win the Powerball.

NinjaKnight.1340:

aliquis.9180:

NinjaKnight.1340:

@aliquis
if you read my thread of discussion I was using Roulette as a simple example for calculation purposes of house odds.

You are correct that in small samples some people will get nothing. If I place one bet on Red in roulette there is a 59.5% chance I will get nothing and a 40.5% chance I will double my money. IfI were to do this 100 times I would likely get near 81% return.

What you are talking about is more in the realm of lottery where you buy a $1 lottery ticket and have a very small chance of winning $1 million+ and they sprinkle smaller winnings in between so that people are motivated to keep buying.

The Chests are nothing like that because we know there is no gigantic jackpot. The most sought after item ATM is the Chainsaw and it goes for around 50G last I checked. Furthermore, it becomes soulbound once used =/= RL money or assets which can be resold.

Hopefully that clarifies my point.

The chests are very much like the lottery because there are only jackpots and consolation prizes. Nothing in between. So it is absurd and irresponsible to suggest to people that they should expect an 80% return.

no they should expect much more than 100% return long run. ie if you buy 5 keys sure there is a chance that you get nothing. But people have bought 50+ keys and got nothing they want. Most people don’t have more than $10 $20 to spend on a game which doesn’t get you many keys.

Furthermore this is a virtual game. IRL the casino has to make money because they are gambling with real money. Here, it is just a skin or other virtual item they can manufacture ad infinitum at no incremental cost other than the original graphics artists work.

Most MMOs I know of that use gambling have better odds and the rare items and the common items received are tradable.

1. No, they should expect a zero return. Gambling is not an investment and you should only gamble what you can afford to lose.

2. The jackpot is not money but virtual items whose value is set by the market, and therefore Arenanet cannot control the value of the jackpot. Arenanet cannot force the jackpot to have any particular value.The paradox is, that the more jackpots they give out, the more worthless they become.

3. Arenanet is a real company with real costs just like a casino. The trading post funds the development of the game instead of monthly fees. The advantage of this system is, that it is voluntary for the players to participate or not.

NinjaKnight.1340:

@aliquis
if you read my thread of discussion I was using Roulette as a simple example for calculation purposes of house odds.

You are correct that in small samples some people will get nothing. If I place one bet on Red in roulette there is a 59.5% chance I will get nothing and a 40.5% chance I will double my money. IfI were to do this 100 times I would likely get near 81% return.

What you are talking about is more in the realm of lottery where you buy a $1 lottery ticket and have a very small chance of winning $1 million+ and they sprinkle smaller winnings in between so that people are motivated to keep buying.

The Chests are nothing like that because we know there is no gigantic jackpot. The most sought after item ATM is the Chainsaw and it goes for around 50G last I checked. Furthermore, it becomes soulbound once used =/= RL money or assets which can be resold.

Hopefully that clarifies my point.

The chests are very much like the lottery because there are only jackpots and consolation prizes. Nothing in between. So it is absurd and irresponsible to suggest to people that they should expect an 80% return.

Kimbald.2697:

If a casino, or any other gambling venue, only has one big prize and nothing else, they won’t last long.

People need consolation prices, or they stop puring in money, no matter how big the big prize is.
They need to get small incentives to continue.

This is one thing Anet did wrong with their chests. This simple rule.

Look at it this way. If I tell you to gamble a Dollar with me and I give you 80 cents right back. Would you do it? Of course not, that would be an awful deal, but that would be the 80% return.

Or, I can tell you, gamble a Dollar with me and you will probably not win anything, but there is a small chance that you win an enormous amount.

That’s the lure of gambling. Of course mine was an extreme example and in reality, if you gamble long enough, you will win some small amounts to keep you going. But the real draw of gambling is the small chance of winning really big.

NinjaKnight.1340:

aliquis.9180:

NinjaKnight.1340:

cryptomega.3745:

NinjaKnight.1340:

cryptomega.3745:

Not like a casino? MMOs have relied on random loot drops and extreme rarity for over a decade. It’s part of the addiction. It is precisely how I explained the enjoyment of a game like World of Warcraft to my aging father, who knows a thing or two about the lure of a one-armed bandit but couldn’t get his head around people playing this type of game.

This current whine is also awfully similar to the complaining about legendary precursors. What is telling is that the same people aren’t committing forum seppuku over the fact that the rarity of the item being dropped from a mob is equally low, if not lower. Who cares what the mechanism is? Chest, forge, mob .. rare is rare.

Uh, BIG difference between a positive surprise while fighting a mob and getting something rare and dropping $80US RL money and getting nothing. Casinos have WAY better odds.

So, you haven’t gambled much, have you? If you were guaranteed to make a profit every time you gambled 100 bucks, casinos wouldn’t exist. Incidentally, I got the greatsaw skin and avian shoulders within the first 20 regular chests. Burned through all my boosters (about 50 MKC) and got the shield and two more sets of shoulders. Judging by the responses, I’d say I was lucky. Some will win, some will lose – it’s the whole point of gambling.

try reading some of my posts above. I went into great detail about the house odds and calculations. Say roulette at 81% return. So i spend $100 on keys and I should at a minimum get $81 back, if not in rare items, in other Halloweenish items I can sell or keep if i prefer. The problem is most of the lousy items you get are account bound.

This whole idea that you’re pushing is complete and utter nonsense. Please stop. Read up on how gambling works and how those returns you keep bringing up are computed. It doesn’t work anything like what you’re saying.

I know about math and I have done recreational gambling in Vegas. I have studied for fun the math etc behind pro gambling.

Can you please give me a very specific example of how my calculations ideas are wrong? Making a general blanket statement like you did is easy but has no foundation.

You make it sound as if everyone gets about 80-90% of the amount they gamble. That is ridiculous. Most people get 0. The returns are aggregates and the vast majority of the return amount is used for large jackpots. That means that if 1 million people gamble $1 each, and there is an 80% return, then one person can win an $800,000 jackpot and everyone else gets absolutely nothing. Zero. Zip. Not 80% for everyone. What a laughable idea.

Mirodir.1672:

aliquis.9180:

If you opened chests before the Halloween event, then you knew exactly what you were getting and got exactly what was promised. It ends there.

The problem with the Halloween chests was that they were advertised as Halloween chests but most of the items inside were regular, non Halloween items and people wanted Halloween items. That’s why they got to convert them to chests containing Halloween items.

They were not advertised as “Halloween chests” in any way. All they said was that they added a chance to get an exclusive skin during the event. Also people had the same problem back when they added more stuff to the BLC about month ago.
Also: Do you think we knew what was in the chests back then? We opened them and then saw what’s inside. We didn’t know exactly what was in there, we also had to find out first.
I’m not complaining that people who wanted Halloween items get a second chance. I’m complaining that everyone who opened chests since the 25th of Sept (not Oct) gets chances while everyone who used their keys prior to that date (which is unrelated to Halloween) doesn’t.

How would you not have known what you were getting when you can mouse over the chest and it says exactly what you get: a random tool, a random buff and a random stack of tonics. I opened a few before Halloween and I knew what I was getting.

NinjaKnight.1340:

cryptomega.3745:

NinjaKnight.1340:

cryptomega.3745:

Not like a casino? MMOs have relied on random loot drops and extreme rarity for over a decade. It’s part of the addiction. It is precisely how I explained the enjoyment of a game like World of Warcraft to my aging father, who knows a thing or two about the lure of a one-armed bandit but couldn’t get his head around people playing this type of game.

This current whine is also awfully similar to the complaining about legendary precursors. What is telling is that the same people aren’t committing forum seppuku over the fact that the rarity of the item being dropped from a mob is equally low, if not lower. Who cares what the mechanism is? Chest, forge, mob .. rare is rare.

Uh, BIG difference between a positive surprise while fighting a mob and getting something rare and dropping $80US RL money and getting nothing. Casinos have WAY better odds.

So, you haven’t gambled much, have you? If you were guaranteed to make a profit every time you gambled 100 bucks, casinos wouldn’t exist. Incidentally, I got the greatsaw skin and avian shoulders within the first 20 regular chests. Burned through all my boosters (about 50 MKC) and got the shield and two more sets of shoulders. Judging by the responses, I’d say I was lucky. Some will win, some will lose – it’s the whole point of gambling.

try reading some of my posts above. I went into great detail about the house odds and calculations. Say roulette at 81% return. So i spend $100 on keys and I should at a minimum get $81 back, if not in rare items, in other Halloweenish items I can sell or keep if i prefer. The problem is most of the lousy items you get are account bound.

This whole idea that you’re pushing is complete and utter nonsense. Please stop. Read up on how gambling works and how those returns you keep bringing up are computed. It doesn’t work anything like what you’re saying.

Mirodir.1672:

DenverRalphy.4185:

So people who conserve their assets, and resist gluttony and temptation, are reaping the benefits? Shocked I tell you! Shocked!

I’m 99% sure you used sarcasm there and I’ll respond like it was sarcasm.

Uhm…this is exactly NOT what is happening right now. People who drank their Tonics when they got them (gluttony and temptation) feel no difference. They would’ve drank named AND Mystery-Tonics anyways. People who conserve what they got from their chests after the 25th of Sept are fine and able to “reap the benefits” while people conserve what they got before that day are stuck with a full bank AND the inability to reap the benefits.

Nice try though.

If you opened chests before the Halloween event, then you knew exactly what you were getting and got exactly what was promised. It ends there.

The problem with the Halloween chests was that they were advertised as Halloween chests but most of the items inside were regular, non Halloween items and people wanted Halloween items. That’s why they got to convert them to chests containing Halloween items.

OrianZeta.1537:

Being a “casual” and investing zero real dollars into this game, other than the price of purchase, it’s my conclusion that these “What’s in this box?” gambling items in games are simply cancerous to the community. Why? Because we are gamers, not gamblers.

A gambler knows odds and knows the game well. More importantly, they do far more gambling and far less work earning that chance to gamble. In many forms, there is plenty of skill, not just luck. Addicts are addicted to gambling, the fun in gambling, and it has its ups and downs. They don’t even think of the money.

Gambling with game chests is a different beast. First of all, we are gamers, we expect our work to produce rewards. We aren’t in the right frame of mind to lose. This is incredibly compounded by the treadmill effect: farming, grinding and scraping together the keys (or “nickels”) to put into that “slot” takes significant effort, and is not something any gamer wants to repeat. It’s time they could be using to earn other, guaranteed game rewards. In sum, the trouble is simply not worth it. No matter how you look at it, there is one box, one key, and an overwhelming chance of losing time and money.

Imagine if the gamblers in Vegas had to craft their nickels or convert real money to a very diminished value of “Vegas money” used for gambling, and you could not win more money, only prizes. Think of the effort put in to merely have the ability to gamble.

Let’s look at it this way: in real-life, you can walk up and start gambling with the money in your pocket, and maybe double it. Now, would you rather have $50 with that in mind or $50 at a very tiny chance for your pixel character to hold a pixel chainsaw sword?

Gamers certainly make their own beds when they gamble with RNG boxes. However, it is an absolutely soul-crushing money pit that needs to be expelled from the school of quality game design. I’m all for donations and offering incentives to supporting a company, I just cannot support this poor implementation, mostly out of respect for the company and its pledge to set the bar for MMOs. Much like crafting, it has taken an extremely cheap design route and left a bitter taste in many mouths. A shame, really, because I know there is the talent on this dev team to be more innovative.

I would prefer the option to gamble not be taken away from me just to prevent some players from acting irresponsibly. Let’s not make gamers sound as if they are inherently incapable of making rational decisions.

If you are capable of acting responsibly in real life, then there is no reason why you you shouldn’t be able to do the same in game. If you are incapable of acting responsibly in real life, then you’ve got much bigger problems than gambling in a game.

NinjaKnight.1340:

After reading the posts I did not buy any keys. But I did buy a Witches outfit and was very pleased.

I agree the drop rate is too low. For those who compare it to the lottery or Vegas, it isn’t the same. Even in Vegas you get I think 80-90% back, higher if you play poker or count cards in blackjack. With lottery the odds are really low but if you win you win really big.It would be like buying a key and getting a 1 million Gold reward.

We need to distinguish between drop rate and jackpot rate. The drop rate was 100% in the sense that for every single key purchased, a prize was won. If you are referring about the drop rate of skins, that would be the jackpot. Jackpots are very rare in any type of gambling.

MajorMelchett.6042:

@ Ditton, i don’t just want the skiin of my choice, i just what my moneys worth.

If something costs 1 gold (a BL key/chest) or 2 gold (a MK chest) i expect at least something close to that value at the very minimum. I’d be happy with not getting any skin at all if i simply got my moneys worth.

2 BL chests worth of items (the base stuff) is required to make 1 MK chest, 1 MK chest got me on average 20 candy corns, 2 crafting items and less than half a tonic (i got 6 tonics out of 15 chests) – that is far from my moneys worth.

In the end i spent over 20 gold on chests, do i think i got 20 gold worth of stuff?, not a chance – i don’t even think i got 5 gold worth of stuff.

That is a reasonable approach and there are items available in the game that will give you your money’s worth.

Chests are for those who wish to gamble. Gambling means that many people do not get their money’s worth while a lucky few get more than their money’s worth.

There is nothing wrong with Arenanet offering the option to gamble for those who enjoy it but people like you need to be wise enough to realize that this is not an appropriate choice for them.

Xproject.1425:

Here is the soundcloud link that ArenaNet posted on their facebook yesterday. The complete versions of the two Halloween tracks. They really are awesome!

http://soundcloud.com/maclaine/sets/guild-wars-2-halloween-2012

That is wonderful! Wish I could hear it in game.

I don’t have a complaint about my current dance moves, but I’ve been thinking about what would entice me to spend more on the cash shop. My number 1 wish would be some new and funky dance moves.

I would like Arenanet to do these 2 things:

1. State the odds of finding a rare item in a chest very clearly: for example 1 in 1000 or whatever it happens to be.

2. Place a limit on how many keys children can buy. Let them buy about 10 keys per month. If someone wants to buy more than that, there should be a popup that you certify that you are at least 18 years old and understand that the odds of getting any particular item may be very small.