Guild Wars 2

Zord.6130:

When determining the Duration of a Condition applied to you, you do the following math:
First, you take into account the BASE duration of the condition the skill applies. In your example, 4s Bleed for Vital Shot.
Then, you add in ALL the modifiers, be them positive (like increased condition duration Food, Traits, Sigils, Runes) or negative (food, Runes, traits).
Of course, you subtract the negative values and you add the positive values. After this calculation, you add this number (which might be either Positive or Negative) to the BASE condition duration of the skill and you determine the “final” duration of the condition.

Simply put, if someone is using Hoelbrak Runes and gets hit by Vital Shot whose user has 75% condition duration, the final modifier will be: (75-20)=+55%.
So, the Bleed applied by Vital Shot will be (4*1.55)=6.2s long.

So….exactly the opposite of what the other guy said. Yay, lack of clarity.

I’d be happy with a dagger that could reliably hit its first target – It doesn’t need to be heat seeking, but my targets shouldn’t be able obstruct it by sneezing while it slowly twirls its way towards them.

BrunoBRS.5178:

PopeUrban.2578:

You know, we could solve this with a trait.

Rupture Deadly arts, Grandmaster
When you apply bleed it is removed and you deal X damage to your target. This damage can not critically hit, but can be increased by boons and other attributes.

P/P problem solved, Deathblossom problem solved, caltrops usable by more specs, more interesting gearing options, etc. etc.

spec into bleed damage anyway. watch as your enemy melts instantly.

your trait suggestion is “bleeds get all ticks instantly, can’t be cleansed”. have you seen the numbers on those bleeds? hell, death blossom would become a murder machine. caltrops would hit harder than necro wells.

He said “X Damage” not “The bleed’s total ticks in damage”.

Zietlogik.6208:

I figure “applied to you.” was clear enough…but I guess not…whatever the duration applied to you is, that is what is reduced.

Hey, thanks for being kind of a kitten about it. I don’t trust Anet to properly word, well, anything, so I thought I’d seek some confirmation.

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

I’m not arguing that it’s well designed either!

I’m just saying that making it a condi weapon makes it worse, not better.

You’re arguing its worse from the subjective viewpoint of thieves who want a ranged direct damage option.

I am arguing its better from the objective viewpoint that when a weaponset only has 2 damaging abilities, those abilities should have the same type of damage.

We’re unfortunately locked into “turn unload into condition based damage” rather than “Make vital shot do direct damage” because of P/D and the way thieves were designed from launch.

Your argument of P/D being designed as a condition set since launch is what’s throwing off the rest of your logic. Torment didn’t exist at launch, so the only condition the original P/D set had access to was bleed. Even with Sneak Attack, it’s still extremely slow compared to other condition builds and really only got popular in the pre-torment era because of Wild Bill’s videos and how easy it is to use Cloak and Dagger to simply outlast your opponent no matter how long the fight went.

Meanwhile, P/P has Body Shot (vulnerability only at launch, immobilize added later), pure power damage in Unload, a daze, and a blind+smoke field for additional blinds. The dazes/blinds and the lack of… well, stealth skills…. suggest a less stealth-oriented playstyle (indirectly minimizing Sneak Attack use and bleed-stacking). Couple that with the fact that vulnerability only affects physical damage and that shortbow has access to more skills with damaging conditions (poison + bleed), it seems P/P was likely intended as a power set.

Of course, we’re probably putting way more thought into this than Anet ever did. It’s still a poorly designed weapon set no matter how you interpret its function.

“The way thieves were designed at launch” was a vague statement, my bad.

Not that I disagree with anything you’ve said, but Pistol has been an awful mess since its inception. If P/P was intended as a direct damage set, who in their right mind would make the AA and stealth attack condi based with awful direct damage scaling?

Regardless of how the set was originally designed, P/D is now a condition set, which unfortunately locks down P/P as well (unless they do something unprecedented and change AA/stealth attack based on Offhand weapon)

PopeUrban.2578:

You know, we could solve this with a trait.

Rupture Deadly arts, Grandmaster
When you apply bleed it is removed and you deal X damage to your target. This damage can not critically hit, but can be increased by boons and other attributes.

P/P problem solved, Deathblossom problem solved, caltrops usable by more specs, more interesting gearing options, etc. etc.

An interesting idea, but I’m not sure I like the idea of locking weapons behind a GM trait (or any trait for that matter). Without this trait, P/P is still useless and D/D underpowered.

Perhaps they could both fix P/P and D/D and implement a trait like this.

It’d take some balance work, but there must exist a damage multiplier/condition duration/condition type combination that would allow death blossom/vital shot/Unload (assuming it was redesigned to do some sort of condition damage) to do respectable damage with any combination of power/crit/crit%/condition damage.
High power/crit builds could do slightly less up front damage than comparable skills, supplemented by a weak bleed. High condition damage specs would do good condition damage with weak direct damage, and hybrid specs might actually be viable.

I haven’t played much since the Sigil/runes update, and have a question.

When and how is the -20% condition duration 6 piece effect of Hoelbrak runes applied?

Let’s pretend an opponent is hitting me with vital shot (base 4s Bleed), with 75% additional bleed duration. Is the 20% based on the skill at base, or the fully extended skill? example below

A) Hoelbrak turns 7 second bleed into 5.6s bleed (7s – 20%)
B) Hoelbrak turned 7 second bleed into 6.2s bleed (4s-20%)

Dahkeus.8243:

I’m not arguing that it’s well designed either!

I’m just saying that making it a condi weapon makes it worse, not better.

You’re arguing its worse from the subjective viewpoint of thieves who want a ranged direct damage option.

I am arguing its better from the objective viewpoint that when a weaponset only has 2 damaging abilities, those abilities should have the same type of damage.

We’re unfortunately locked into “turn unload into condition based damage” rather than “Make vital shot do direct damage” because of P/D and the way thieves were designed from launch.

Dahkeus.8243:

…
You’re changing the argument. I never stated that P/P was fun. I never stated that I like the design of pressing 1 button over and over to DPS. I stated that P/P is the one weapon that gives decent ranged DPS on single targets in PvE and that making it a condition weapon would leave thieves with no other decent options.

If you want to have a debate on how to make P/P more fun or how to make it a better power-based weapon set, go for it, but don’t quote me in your reply when you’re addressing a very separate issue.

edit
If it helps, I’ll clarify: When I say it’s a “decent” weapon set for ranged PvE, I’m talking strictly from a pragmatic perspective. The DPS it does is competitive for a ranged weapon in PvE. I am not weighing the fun factor of the weapon in this statement.

I’m not changing the argument at all – Usable != Well designed.

My argument is that P/P is a very poorly designed weaponset. Just because you’ve found a way to make it work (by pressing 3 over and over again with high DD stats) doesn’t make it a well designed weaponset.

It doesn’t matter that thieves who want a single target direct damage ranged weapon set like it the way it is – the set should not remain poorly designed just because they like it that way. If they like ranged direct damage, they should choose a class with that as an option.

If the situation were reversed and P/P did insane Direct damage because it wasn’t designed to be used with High DD stats, we wouldn’t argue that it should remain so just because changing it might take away PvE thieves ability to do direct damage from range.

We could argue that the change is unfair (since people might have geared themselves specifically to use that set), but that’s a failure on Anets part – preventing the weaponset from being competently designed because they’ve ignored its issues for 2 years now isn’t a very sensible option either.

Dahkeus.8243:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

I’d love to have a power-based auto attack for pistol instead of a bleeding one, but I’m pretty sure all the condi thieves who run P/D would be kittened if it got changed that way. =P

It’s not about giving a power based attack to pistol AA – it’s about making the set make sense. P/D is a condi set, P/P’s autoattack is condi based, with 2,4 and 5 as utilities….sounds like Unload is the skill that’s out of alignment.

Making Unload fire faster does nothing to address the fact that it doesn’t fit with how they designed pistol for thieves.

Maybe, but I don’t think that changing unload to be a condi skill so that P/P is also a condition set is a good idea.

Ok, why?

Do you prefer P/P as a poorly designed unusable set?

There’s only 3 directions they can go with it.
1) Change Unload into a condition skill, solving half of P/P’s problems (Still has an issue with available defenses).
2) Change Pistol AA to a direct damage ability only when equipped with another pistol (or else it ruins P/D)
3) Change both the Pistol AA and Unload to be hybrid Condi/direct damage skills.

2 isn’t happening – it’s a major departure from how the class has been designed, and would be legitimately confusing for new players.
3 Has been an option forever, but they’ve never taken that route – with the popularity of Celestial amulet surging, I don’t see them going this route now when it might potentially be very powerful.

I prefer P/P being a good ranged option for single target fights in PvE than to being condition weaponset in PvP, when we already have another weaponset that fulfills that role just fine.

Ideally, I’d like to see the power-based damage of P/P strong enough to make it a more viable set to a power build, even if there’s a bleed on the auto attack.

Even if you made unload a condi skill, P/P would still be an absolutely terrible set in PvP, while becoming worse than the short bow for PvE ranged fights.

Making the damage type of attack skills to be consistent doesn’t make a weaponset suddenly viable or balanced.

I’m just going to quote myself from a couple posts up

evilapprentice.6379:

1) Change Unload into a condition skill, solving half of P/P’s problems (Still has an issue with available defenses).

Even if they did give it a decent defense, you’re talking about killing the only decent single target ranged weaponset in PvE for a potential ranged condition weaponset that’s completely redundant with P/D.

And we already have a version of unload with condition damage. It’s called Sneak Attack

It’s not a decent ranged weaponset for PvE – it’s extremely poorly designed. Just because you got it to work doesn’t mean it’s decent – having one und only vone button to press to deal damage is absolutely awful from every conceivable perspective, even if you happen to enjoy it.

A weaponset shouldn’t remain horribly designed just because some people happen to enjoy it – if you enjoy ranged direct damage DPS, the game offers a number of classes that have it.

Dahkeus.8243:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

I’d love to have a power-based auto attack for pistol instead of a bleeding one, but I’m pretty sure all the condi thieves who run P/D would be kittened if it got changed that way. =P

It’s not about giving a power based attack to pistol AA – it’s about making the set make sense. P/D is a condi set, P/P’s autoattack is condi based, with 2,4 and 5 as utilities….sounds like Unload is the skill that’s out of alignment.

Making Unload fire faster does nothing to address the fact that it doesn’t fit with how they designed pistol for thieves.

Maybe, but I don’t think that changing unload to be a condi skill so that P/P is also a condition set is a good idea.

Ok, why?

Do you prefer P/P as a poorly designed unusable set?

There’s only 3 directions they can go with it.
1) Change Unload into a condition skill, solving half of P/P’s problems (Still has an issue with available defenses).
2) Change Pistol AA to a direct damage ability only when equipped with another pistol (or else it ruins P/D)
3) Change both the Pistol AA and Unload to be hybrid Condi/direct damage skills.

2 isn’t happening – it’s a major departure from how the class has been designed, and would be legitimately confusing for new players.
3 Has been an option forever, but they’ve never taken that route – with the popularity of Celestial amulet surging, I don’t see them going this route now when it might potentially be very powerful.

I prefer P/P being a good ranged option for single target fights in PvE than to being condition weaponset in PvP, when we already have another weaponset that fulfills that role just fine.

Ideally, I’d like to see the power-based damage of P/P strong enough to make it a more viable set to a power build, even if there’s a bleed on the auto attack.

Even if you made unload a condi skill, P/P would still be an absolutely terrible set in PvP, while becoming worse than the short bow for PvE ranged fights.

Making the damage type of attack skills to be consistent doesn’t make a weaponset suddenly viable or balanced.

I’m just going to quote myself from a couple posts up

evilapprentice.6379:

1) Change Unload into a condition skill, solving half of P/P’s problems (Still has an issue with available defenses).

Narkodx.1472:

YAY BUILD DIVERSITY!

No one knows your build/class/role/intention/amulet/skill level/height/weight/race

But the answer is clear – air/fire is op

General requests get general answers.

OP basically asked “What does the most damage” – there’s always going to be something that, in general, does the most damage.

It’s possible that other sigil’s would fit the build better, but with limited info, you get catch-all answers.

Aza.2105:

Venomge.7142:

What I wanted to add is, spending half the initiative pool on a skill that’s effectiveness has been cut in half doesn’t sound too good now. Lower the ini cost for it as well.

I feel the point of the nerf is to introduce more risk vs reward into the skill. If they changed it based upon your suggestion then it would end up the same as it was before. A little to no risk with a great reward. Currently Black Powder can be perpetually used, 4 pulses, 4 seconds. After the field is gone, a thief should have initiative to do it again.

Yes in pve mobs are stupid, in pvp players may stand in it. But this isn’t the point of the nerf, the point is the length of the interval of vulnerability when using BP. At this time its very small. When I say a interval of vulnerability, I’m referring to the up and down time of the effects associated with the skill in relation to when the class (or in this case thief is vulnerable to attack).

Right now the interval is quite small, with the only way to access the interval is by stepping out of the aoe. Intervals of vulnerability are needed, its what makes the user consider if its a good idea to use xxx skill or not since the objective is to not die and to take as little damage as possible.

The only people this change affects are those who spam.

I’m confused – you’re aware that BP isn’t big enough to hide from melee in, correct?

No matter where you stand in BP, an opponent can melee you without touching the circle. So a thief if vulnerable for all 4 seconds of BP.

Dahkeus.8243:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dahkeus.8243:

I’d love to have a power-based auto attack for pistol instead of a bleeding one, but I’m pretty sure all the condi thieves who run P/D would be kittened if it got changed that way. =P

It’s not about giving a power based attack to pistol AA – it’s about making the set make sense. P/D is a condi set, P/P’s autoattack is condi based, with 2,4 and 5 as utilities….sounds like Unload is the skill that’s out of alignment.

Making Unload fire faster does nothing to address the fact that it doesn’t fit with how they designed pistol for thieves.

Maybe, but I don’t think that changing unload to be a condi skill so that P/P is also a condition set is a good idea.

Ok, why?

Do you prefer P/P as a poorly designed unusable set?

There’s only 3 directions they can go with it.
1) Change Unload into a condition skill, solving half of P/P’s problems (Still has an issue with available defenses).
2) Change Pistol AA to a direct damage ability only when equipped with another pistol (or else it ruins P/D)
3) Change both the Pistol AA and Unload to be hybrid Condi/direct damage skills.

2 isn’t happening – it’s a major departure from how the class has been designed, and would be legitimately confusing for new players.
3 Has been an option forever, but they’ve never taken that route – with the popularity of Celestial amulet surging, I don’t see them going this route now when it might potentially be very powerful.

Dahkeus.8243:

I’d love to have a power-based auto attack for pistol instead of a bleeding one, but I’m pretty sure all the condi thieves who run P/D would be kittened if it got changed that way. =P

It’s not about giving a power based attack to pistol AA – it’s about making the set make sense. P/D is a condi set, P/P’s autoattack is condi based, with 2,4 and 5 as utilities….sounds like Unload is the skill that’s out of alignment.

Making Unload fire faster does nothing to address the fact that it doesn’t fit with how they designed pistol for thieves.

Atherakhia.4086:

You melee swing and port back if you hit. It’s not a complicated process…

Shadowstep <> Evade. If you’re going to comment on how skills work, you should actually know how they work. If you portray any skill that moves you over 130’ as an “evade”, you’re massively misrepresenting how the game works.

It gives the impression you’re not experienced or qualified enough to make comments/suggestions on how skills should work when you’re not aware of how they currently work.

Atherakhia.4086:

Auesis.7301:

Atherakhia.4086:

Auesis.7301:

If Cloak and Dagger, a highly-telegraphed melee skill that takes half of a Thief’s standard resource pool, only grants Stealth on a successful hit, why on earth do you think it’s appropriate for a 1200-range weapon to always grant Stealth on skill use no matter what?

It’s not like it’s even hard to hit to begin with…

Because the Ranger’s skill doesn’t crit for upwards of 6k?

Because the Ranger’s skill doesn’t facilitate a backstab?

Because the Ranger doesn’t have evade spam on every weapon set?

What a load of rubbish. 6k if you’re naked and have 25 Vulnerability and an Ele has given me 25 Might, perhaps.

Why would you need a follow-up attack like Backstab when you can go invisible from up to 1500 range, change position and, with the newly buffed Rapid Fire, shred the opponent to pieces for even more damage than Backstab without even getting close? Even better, why not use PBS after HS and immediately begin Rapid Fire so all of it is a guaranteed hit?

Evade on every weapon set? Of course, forgive me for using all those evades on P/D, it’s not like my entire lifeline for sustained combat is getting in to melee range and landing Cloak and Dagger which is easily dodged by any competent player.

The fact of the matter is, guaranteed Stealth from a single WEAPON skill is unacceptable. More than that, it’s a projectile skill, and you don’t deserve immunities from what projectiles are.

And P/D has the #3 skill which is your evade back

Please refrain from posting about skills you clearly do not have a full understanding of.
There is a disconnect, either between your understanding of the basic mechanics of the game, or specifically how Shadow Stab works.

I am convinced that half the people on these forums are so misinformed because they rely on statements from other misinformed people as a basis for their opinions. You’re actively hurting the game and the less experienced playerbase by posting misinformation such as this.

@ title.

Nope. Not even close.

Please, Learn to play. If necessary, roll a thief for a week.

babazhook.6805:

>>I didn’t miss the point at all – the healing is not at all worth a GM slot in any tree, much less the CS tree. Run it all you want – that doesn’t mean it isn’t garbage.

You indeed missed the point. It is perfectly in line with GM traits in other classes trees.

I forgot that all classes were the same. I’m sure IP is amazing when combined with all the protection, blocks, invulnerabilities, and amazing condition clearing that thieves get.

Oh, wait….

You’re wrong, and you’re perfectly happy being willfully ignorant as to why. We’ll just have to agree to disagree, because you’re here to sway others to your line of thinking rather than come to logical conclusions concerning how the games mechanics work.

babazhook.6805:

>>Did a little formatting and emphasis, added IP after it’s “buff”, and added a base No healing power Regeneration for comparisons sake.

Ah so he now has two regens , one more powerful then the other running at the same time.

Not all that bad.

For an Adept tier, sure. For 30 points in CS? Garbage.

messiah.1908:

i think you miss the point here
its not supposed to work as regen (i.e over time) rather as burst heal (semi heal skill)

i will try to show it on video soon with testing builds i have done around this idea

I didn’t miss the point at all – the healing is not at all worth a GM slot in any tree, much less the CS tree. Run it all you want – that doesn’t mean it isn’t garbage.

messiah.1908:

pls read :“alongside with this trait”

i use som, food, rune, sigils, and TRAIT = >
1 unload does 4 hit from 8 crit hits for 4000 dmg so with this trait its 5%
ip(5%) = 200 health // ip(8%) = 320 health
som 125*8=1000
sigil of leeching 975 health
sigil of blood 450 so can be 1 crit as it has 5 sec cd
rune of vampirism – 15% chance with unload very food chance to proc 975
after heal skill use another 975
food 325 with 1 sec cd may proc 2 times so 650
assassin reward trait 420 health (not must)
Regeneration (base, no HP) = 260 health

Did a little formatting and emphasis, added IP after it’s “buff”, and added a base No healing power Regeneration for comparisons sake.

Platanos.8107:

I’m confused about the BP blind spam complaints. I can even autoattack and backstab someone with a dagger outside of bp’s range. Sure perma-blind is OP, but how difficult is it to hold down the “S” button for one second? It takes one second to be unblinded from a thief skill that uses 6 initiative.

IP sucks. In my opinion, it would be balanced with other traits if it deals additional life steal on crit damage (5% crit damage is life steal).

Note: I don’t play d/p. The only reason I’m complaining about this is because of pve content. I guess I’ll just stick with pistol whipping everything instead, which is basically the same as black powder, except I’ll be doing like 5% more damage but not helping my party in any useful way.

8% of critical damage turning into lifesteal would actually be interesting. That number might have to be tweaked and playtested a bit.

Your off the cuff remark is more interesting and effective than Anets designed trait.

BrunoBRS.5178:

^ panic strike: they’re trying to give it more incentive to actually go 30 DA. free immobilize on a guy low on health every time is pretty good, let’s see if it’s good enough to pick it up.

And they failed. They’d have to introduce a useful master tier trait into DA (excluding VA builds) to make the line worth taking. Then it would have to contend with 30CS and 30trickery, which are both proven and useful.

invigorating precision: i don’t think they’re really trying to make it better or worse than executioner, or viable as a PvP choice. i find it fun for open world PvE.

Most of the changes appear to be based around PvP balance. Why throw this PvE change in there?

PS: if vital shot stops being condi, P/D dies as a set.

Who’s asking them to turn vital shot into a direct damage ability? Unload is clearly the odd man out here (When you look at P/P and P/D), just like Warrior’s Bleeding shot was clearly the odd man out in the weaponset. The fact that they fixed warrior rifle when warrior has the best weapon selections and ignored P/P when thieves have the worst weapon selections (remember, ele gets attunements and engi’s kits) is just an additional slap in the face.

messiah.1908:

MakubeC.3026:

evilapprentice.6379:

Lets say you do 30k damage in 15 seconds. That feels a tad quick to me (with blocks, invulns, blinds, dodges, kiting, etc), but let’s take it anyway.

At an 85% crit rate, 25,500 of that damage is critical, and will apply heals.
25,500 * .08 = 2040
2040/15 = 136HPS

Congratulations on your 30 point GM trait that is roughly equivalent to the Regeneration boon. You could have gotten that from Shadow protector for 10 points in SA, and it wouldn’t rely on you landing crits/being in combat at all, and can be used on friendly players to boot.

Garbage.

A hundred times this.

not so true
with one unload i can get back almost 3k health alongside with this trait…

To get 3k health back with this trait, you would need to do 37,500 damage, all crit.

Please tell me how you did 37,500 damage with 1 unload, because I’d love to run that spec.

Or were you taking into account SOM, food, and a dozen other factors? You know, things that Aren’t IP.

IP is garbage – your reliance on mixing its heals up into a bunch of other effects to make it look halfway decent only further proves my point.

You know when executioner is good? When it’s slotted. Sure, you can make it better with might stacks, food, vulnerability on your target and so on, but it’s good enough to be taken on its own merit. It doesn’t need crutches to seem halfway decent

Thieves weren’t really buffed.

Panic Strike – duration of immobilization too long (5.25s baseline), reduced it to 2.5 s. Reduced the cooldown from 30s to 20s so you will be able to use it more often.

Nobody goes 30 into DA. Panic strikes being slightly more effective isn’t changing that.

Invigorating Precision – Increased from 5% to 8% of your crit dmg returned as health to you.

Still crap. The % of health returned is almost always going to be less than the additional damage Executioner delivers. We could also talk about how, for a glass setup (which a thief with 30 points in critical strikes is going to be), additional damage is much more valuable than a little bit of extra healing.

Ricochet – In addition to bouncing your pistol shots, this trait now Increase the range of your pistol shots. From 900m to 1050m range increase. Also some bug fixes to how Ricochet works, it will bounce more reliability.

P/P is still the most poorly designed weaponset in the game, and P/D needs to close to melee to access stealth for sneak attack. Still a crappy trait.

Assasin’s Equilibrium – The amount of stability it grants increased from 1s to 1.5s

50% longer, still 100% worthless.

Venomous Aura – Previously, if you applied venom to an ally, they applied conditions using their own stats. You now will use your own condition stats. Other venoms like Leeching Venoms will use your own healing stat. Basilisk Venom, however, remains as an interrupt through the target you have applied the venom to.

Fantastic, Now it functions as anyone with a functioning brainstem would have expected it to. Why was this functioning in any other way prior to this? Let’s also note that VA is the reasons venoms are so awful to begin with – how does one design a venom that’s good enough to be slotted on its own merits without it being horribly OP if you can suddenly give it to 5 additional targets?

Dagger Strike/Wild Strike/Lotus Strike now hits up to 2 targets. Previous it only hit 1 target and became difficult for targets with pets etc. The defensive measures on these skills such as endurance gain from Wild Strike will only apply once.

The only actual buff – I’m waiting til I see it in action before I judge it.

Unload – Cast time reduced from 1.75s to 1.5s for overall 20% reduction

Like the Dev’s just spit in thieves faces. Who the kitten cares how fast unload fires? It’s a weaponset where the 2 attack skills which do damage and aren’t designed as pure utility do not do the same damage type. Unload is power/crit based, VS is condition damage based. They realized how silly that was for Warrior Rifle In the very same patch, and still haven’t touched P/P despite thieves asking them to address the issue for over a year now.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Look at what other classes have to do to stomp. They either have to use high CD and strippable Stability (I’ve been running Throw Mine on Engi recently and it’s really good for saving teammates) or something like timing a blind/Aegis mind stomp which requires some semblance of skill. I think Invuln stomps shouldn’t be a thing either. There is simply no way to counter it but even then most skills like that also have high CDs.

It’s not like you can’t still stealth stomp/shadowstep against half the classes anyways.

None of the other classes in the game have their defenses based almost entirely on avoiding attacks all together. Standing still for 4 seconds can get a thief killed in a heartbeat in a group fight. Hell, even solo – go roll a zerker thief, down a zerker warrior, and see just how much damage they do to you while down – it can easily be 40-50% of your health (with 30 points in vit tree).

I’m not familiar with any class that can strip stability while downed – group fights are of course another story.

Stealth stomps lose points when you’re the only player contesting.

Stability does more to guarantee a stomp in a group fight than BP does (since CC originating from more than 90’ from you still won’t affect you)

I’d honestly be fine with the shadowstep stomp (Seeing as the CD is roughly similar to what other classes have to invest to safe stomp), but since it doubles as a PvP thief’s only viable condition removal, you’re suddenly sacrificing a stunbreaker and your only response to a condi bomb just for a stomp. That’s something other classes don’t have to sacrifice for a safe stomp.

The argument can be made that 100% 1 on 1 safe stomping for half a standard init bar against 3/8 classes might have been a little over the top, but halving the pulse rate was not the right call either, especially considering how it effected the skill in other ways.

babazhook.6805:

>>– 580 health ain’t kitten to a spec that can hit that hard, because it is going to be hit very hard in return. When you realize you have to give up executioner or hidden killer for this kitten healing, it becomes laughable garbage.

You can get a base crit chance of 80 percent crit which is ALL the time and have it hit 100 percent well over half the time using thrill of the crime and or furious retaliation.

You can do this in WvW and have near 2400 armor , 17k health and 200 percent crit damage each and every strike. This with power of over 2500 after boosts.

You are not giving up hidden killer at all. You have it ALL THE time.

That 580 heal is each and every time you autoattack. It is in addition to other sources of heal you might decide to take like Omnomberry ghost which proc will virtually every time you perform an AA cycle for another 325 point heal.

If you have this setup with a pistolwhip build and SOM you get another source of healing close to 1000 in two seconds . IP from a PW will get you over 500 heal. two procs of the ghost for over 600 for over 1000 heal per second. That is more heal in ten seconds then any of your other heals can give you.

If you are fighting a warrior who is attacking twice a second being able to heal 1000 per second is like having more armor and you are doing this without giving up a lot in the damage department.

A single dagger storm in the midst of an enemy camp will keep you chock full of health or fill it to the brim if low along with taking down the guards to near death if not dead all on its own.

Minion masters and pets actually can become sources of heals that can often provide more healing then the damage the companion inflicts.

If you take withdraw instead of SOM you will actually have one heal source all but equal to that provided by SOM in the way of IP along with the ability to spike heal when needed with withdraw.

This is not trivial. It is more sustain at the cost of damage to a single target with less then 50 percent health. It is not for every build or every persons personal style but it hardly “garbage”.

Lets say you do 30k damage in 15 seconds. That feels a tad quick to me (with blocks, invulns, blinds, dodges, kiting, etc), but let’s take it anyway.

At an 85% crit rate, 25,500 of that damage is critical, and will apply heals.
25,500 * .08 = 2040
2040/15 = 136HPS

Congratulations on your 30 point GM trait that is roughly equivalent to the Regeneration boon. You could have gotten that from Shadow protector for 10 points in SA, and it wouldn’t rely on you landing crits/being in combat at all, and can be used on friendly players to boot.

Garbage.

Did you guys see? The dev’s are listening, and the upcoming changes are proof.

They heard us when we pointed out, time and time again, it was poor design to have a condition based auto attack with a power/crit based dual skill. (P/P)

They heard us when we said that cramming all of our condition cleansing into a single trait (which is impossible to use in PvP anyway) was silly, and that we should have more condition removal options.

Then they made those changes to Warrior. I guess we weren’t specific enough.

(P.S. – this isn’t mean to rag on Warrior, it’s meant to point out the hilarious parallels)

babazhook.6805:

>>That’s a whole lot of words for “30 points in crit strikes and a bunch of other buffs is worth 580 healing on 7k damage”.

A rubbish counterpoint.

It is immaterial that the damage from an attack is 7 k or 8 k when we speak of a source of heal.

I do 133 heal on each attack using a SOM. That if the damage 100k or 1k so what?

Shadows rejuv does less of a heal while hiding and doing NO damage. Is it useless ? it about 300 per second while hid. You are inflicting no damage while hid. In that one second i can heal for more and inflict 7k in damage.

If I cleave with my sword I double up that heal. Can you do that while using shadows rejuv? Yes you might come out of the rejuv healed but while you were hiding that enemy healed as well.

Certainly there are other advantages to shadows rejuv other then the heal but it does not follow that healing for 580 and more per second while pumping out damage is “useless”.

I apologize, I had assumed you’d follow the thought through to it’s conclusion. Allow me to spell it out for you, step by step.

The damage of the attack is very much material when talking about the source of this heal because it’s based on a % of damage done. It’s not simply a number independent of the amount of damage done, as in every other example you cited.

To do such high damage, you have to have to have good power, good crit %, and good crit damage %.

To have all of those things at a “good” level, you likely have defenses at a “poor” level, the typical nomenclature being “glass”.

That amount of healing is nearly inconsequential for a “glass” spec because it’s going to take a high amount of damage from most attacks.

Tl;dr – 580 health ain’t kitten to a spec that can hit that hard, because it is going to be hit very hard in return. When you realize you have to give up executioner or hidden killer for this kitten healing, it becomes laughable garbage.

Geiir.7603:

Venoms are very underrated in my opinion. The only thing I wish for is an increase to the radius of which the aura are applied.

The new buff that it is the thiefs condition damage that has the damage can be pretty strong in a condition venom share build. In WvW you can effectively spread your conditions even harder, faster an longer than ever before with this trait. I can’t wait to test it out with my guild in snake scale roaming.

If my group and another collides I can effectively poison, torment, chill and stun 6 people with ease. This is huge if I am the only one running conditions to boost the party’s dps.

I think venoms are in an ok place, but there is always room for improvement.

Venoms are not underrated, they’re kitten by Venomous Aura.

How could you possibly design a venom good enough to be taken on its own merit without it being ridiculously OP if spread to 5 targets? In GW2’s current system, you can’t.

The obvious solution is to redesign venomous aura the way it should have been designed from the start – separate the effect that spreads from the venom itself. Ex: Instead of having VA give friendlies an exact copy of Spider venom, having it give “Whatever Venom”, that does something similar. You could still have all the venom traits buff this effect, but it would allow Anet to design venoms that were actually useful.

After that, we could tackle how a spec that needs to sink 4-5 major traits into a single utility line is kind of silly when that line doesn’t include stunbreakers.

babazhook.6805:

>>This is still crap. There is no way I’d pick this over HK or Exec. Even if you manage to have 100% crit hits, the heal will still be crap because you’ve sacrificed a lot of power to get 100% crit hit.

What do you consider “a lot of power given up”? to get a high crit rate.?

Power is 2185 on my thief using potent stones, Crit rate 85 percent base prior to fury.

Bloodlust and applied strength that adds 350 more.

yeah he a glass cannon (only 2k armor) BUT…..

Using invig precision and omnoberry ghost and SOM I get.

8*133 heal from SOM on average 1.kittens from The ghost for around 475 health and then the unloads 8 shots all crits ranging from 600 to around 1000 each hit dependent on armor. Taking the lower end of this that 4800 damage for 240 current heal.

This a minimum heal of 1800 per unload soon to be more with more range/ricochets/percentage over shorter time.

I think it will be very niche but I think it will be fine.

it like having two SOMS+ on ones utility bar.

Or go the way I prefer using a withdraw and a INV precision and it like having SOM and withdraw chosen at same time as you are getting nearly as much heal from the IP as you would from an SOM on every hit. (the auto attack chain s/d hits around 2k/2k/3k for 580 heal just on IP which is more then SOM would get me on the same attack chain)

That’s a whole lot of words for “30 points in crit strikes and a bunch of other buffs is worth 580 healing on 7k damage”.

It’s a garbage trait, even before you consider the fact that it’s competing for the CS GM slot.

Just because they jazzed up a kitten with some sprinkles doesn’t mean it’s any less of a kitten . What a waste of development, QA and testing time.

coverdale.8903:

evilapprentice.6379:

coverdale.8903:

evilapprentice.6379:

Yes, you can troll with it. No, it wont be of any use in tPvP – Even Jumper ditched it, and he was excellent with it. The only role thief can fill in tPvP is roamer – can’t roam without a shortbow.

Problem solved! Added build 2 =3
Instead of flanking strike spam 3 on shortbow!

Now you’re in the “doesn’t do enough damage” camp. The only way you’re taking full advantage of quick pockets is to constantly swap. Now you’re running ShBow, so half the time you’re doing subpar single target damage, on top of already doing pretty poor damage since you no longer have Air/Fire runes, and add on top of that less LS’s (since you’re spending alot of init to dodge spam).

Maybe the additional might stacks will help mitigate the crappy damage, but I doubt it. Most likely just a troll build.

It may just work out hahaha crosses fingers
I just want a meta build to my name :x

I don’t mean to be a Debbie Downer – good luck!

coverdale.8903:

evilapprentice.6379:

Yes, you can troll with it. No, it wont be of any use in tPvP – Even Jumper ditched it, and he was excellent with it. The only role thief can fill in tPvP is roamer – can’t roam without a shortbow.

Problem solved! Added build 2 =3
Instead of flanking strike spam 3 on shortbow!

Now you’re in the “doesn’t do enough damage” camp. The only way you’re taking full advantage of quick pockets is to constantly swap. Now you’re running ShBow, so half the time you’re doing subpar single target damage, on top of already doing pretty poor damage since you no longer have Air/Fire runes, and add on top of that less LS’s (since you’re spending alot of init to dodge spam).

Maybe the additional might stacks will help mitigate the crappy damage, but I doubt it. Most likely just a troll build.

This is more or less an exact copy of Jumpers build from when S/D first got fixed (when FS first got split).

Yes, you can troll with it. No, it wont be of any use in tPvP – Even Jumper ditched it, and he was excellent with it. The only role thief can fill in tPvP is roamer – can’t roam without a shortbow.

crochip.2389:

I think it is a good change in general. Perma blind shouldn’t exist in any game mode.

If a thief can hit you with melee, you can hit a thief with melee without touching the BP circle.

BP isn’t even big enough to “hide” from melee in – no matter where you stand in it, a melee character can move to a point where they can still hit you without standing in the circle.

Apparently, not standing in a tiny circle is too much skill to expect of anyone.

Since the skill blinds half as much as it used to, it should see a init reduction (though not by half, obviously).

Dirame.8521:

Dante.3754:

Oh one more thing, whats the point of LS being unblockable if FS has to hit first?

Removing boons including and not limited to Aegis.

Unblockable needs to be added to FS – it does crap damage, it’s there for the evade (and now for access to LS)

BobbyT.7192:

Panic Strike: Reduced immobilize from 5 seconds to 2.5 second, reduced CD from 30 to 20 seconds.

A sensible change. Wow, wasn’t expecting that. Too bad there isn’t a viable spec that has 30 points in DA.

Invigorating Precision: Increase healing % based on damage from 5 to 8%

Still laughable garbage no one will take, especially not at GM level. a 10k backstab (not an easy feat in PvP) would heal you for a mighty 800 health…which will vanish if a stiff breeze rolls by because a 10k backstab would make you total glass. See the problem here Anet?

Ricochet: Now also increases range to 1050, along with a few bug fixes to make it hit more reliably.

Still crap.

Assassin’s Equilibrium: Increase stability from 1 to 1.5 seconds

Still crap.

Venomous Aura, Allies will now use the thief’s condi damage and healing when applying the venoms.

Hey, lets continue to ignore the fact that venom’s are awful specifically because of this trait. There’s no way to design a venom that is worth using on its own without being ridiculously OP when combined with this trait – venoms will be a joke until that dichotomy is addressed.

Dagger 1 Combo will now hit max 2 targets, Posion will stack, but not the endurance gain.

At least it isn’t a nerf – effectiveness will need to be tested

Pistol 5 Black Powder: will now pulse every 2 seconds for 4 seconds instead of 1 second for 4, and the aoe blind has been reduced from 3 seconds to 2 seconds per pulse.

Because standing outside of a small circle is too hard *>:[ *

P/P Unload: cast time as been reduced from 1 3/4 seconds to 1 1/2, also applies to your summon thieves as well.

Awesome!
…As long as we ignore the fact that PP is a weapon set where the 2 non-utility skills don’t deal the same damage type – VS is entirely condition based with pitiful power/crit scaling, and Unload does absolutely nothing for condition specs. Oh, we have to also ignore how the weaponset has absolutely no access to the thief’s primary defenses (Evades, mobility, stealth), and BP was just nerfed (Remember, small circles are impossible to stand outside of) so it’s already pitiful defense access is even worse now. And it’s been that way since launch. So yeah, tl;dr – awesome change, if we ignore the fact that P/P is still the most poorly designed weaponset in the game and in an unusable state.

Short-bow 4 Choking gas: now delivers a strike when it lands.

Because shadow refuge followed by Choking Gas spam was a problem, I guess?

S/D Flanking strike: initiative cost increase from 3 to 4, and now requires to hit before it can combo into Larcenous Strike,

S/D Larcenous Strike: Initiative cost reduced from 2 to 1

Kind of kills the un-blockable on LS, but not really a huge deal in comparison to how bad some of the other nerfs/“buffs” are. How about getting LS back up to 2 boons stolen on hit, since it now relies on a spinning dance move to land first and considering how its worthless as a boon bunker counter at 1 boon stolen.

Batten down the hatches for for the “Thieves just keep FS-ing!” QQ storm in a week tho.

tl;dr – mostly nerfs and laughable garbage buffs to laughable garbage skills – SOP.

vincecontix.1264:

evilapprentice.6379:

I agree with Arg that POI is extremely strong in the listed setup. You can effortlessly carry 8-10 stacks of might without even having to try, much more if you run Battle and actually try to stack might.

But the use of the term “nerf” is going to turn people off – instead of just saying POI is too good, lets make it kittentier, let’s shift it a bit – instead of 1 stack of might for 15s, POI should probably be 2-3 stacks of might for 3-6 seconds. This allows POI to continue doing what it was intended to do without allowing specific builds to carry 10+ stacks indefinitely and with little effort.

Nope no change needed war, ele, engi even guard can quite easily have constant 20+ stacks of might. Thief might stacking abilities are inferior compared to many other classes.

What do those classes have to invest to get and maintain those stacks? What about the process used to obtain them? Is it as easy as 2 points in a traitline and using a resource that you can’t possibly use improperly (you can’t mess up a dodge – you can dodge at the wrong time or in the wrong direction, but you always perform the dodge itself and get the stack of might). Do any of the standard cookie-cutter builds double their access to the resources used to generate might stacks? Do they have multiple ways to steal might stacks from other players? These are all questions you should be asking yourself when you say “They get it, why don’t we?”

Blanket, blind comparisons with no thought given to them hold little value. Comparing classes can also be tricky, as they’re all designed with different goals in mind. A class might have easy access to boons by design – thieves are already burst damage dealers, they probably weren’t designed with easy access to long duration stacks of might in mind.

Outright nerfing POI just because the way it interacts with 1 specific build would be silly – slightly redesigning it so it’s still useful to all builds without being OP in 1 specific build is the way to go.

I agree with Arg that POI is extremely strong in the listed setup. You can effortlessly carry 8-10 stacks of might without even having to try, much more if you run Battle and actually try to stack might.

But the use of the term “nerf” is going to turn people off – instead of just saying POI is too good, lets make it kittentier, let’s shift it a bit – instead of 1 stack of might for 15s, POI should probably be 2-3 stacks of might for 3-6 seconds. This allows POI to continue doing what it was intended to do without allowing specific builds to carry 10+ stacks indefinitely and with little effort.

Chrispy.5641:

Zero.6592:

I agree, one should never be forced to have a trait like this.

Yeah! Get rid of this pathetic trait! God forbid you actually have to be skilled enough to pay attention to your own health bar!

I too advocate standing around and not using any attacks when you get low on health for the fear that a supposedly beneficial trait might hit you with 4 seconds of revealed because you continued to play the game.

Not really though, because that would be silly.

Steb.2571:

It’s original design was fine before reveled was put into the game, now it just screws you more often than not. It should be changed to give something like a smoke screen @ 25% instead.

The devs have already weighed in on this suggestion, and a 100 others – they specifically stated that they want the skill to grant stealth in some form – Not just enable stealth via combo fields.

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again.

There is currently an effect in the game titled “Cloak” – Mesmers have it, and it renders you invisible even if you have the revealed debuff.

The main purpose behind the revealed timer is to stop thieves from spamming their most powerful attacks, their stealth attacks (BS, TS, etc).

Instead of having LR trigger “Stealth”, have it trigger “Cloak” – stealth attacks will not be available while cloaked, and striking a target while cloaked will not cause the revealed debuff. Whether or not the cloak effect trigger “on stealth” traits in the SA tree is a game balance decision that needs to be tested, but I don’t see why not.

There you go, LR is fixed without being OP for or against the Thief. In the middle of a CnD when LR triggers? No problem, you still get stealth. In the middle of an Unload when LR triggers? No problem, no revealed debuff for you. Get LR while standing behind your enemy? No BS for you, it’s Cloak not Stealth.

This is the perfect solution not only because it’s fair to both the thief and their opponent, but also because it should be an easy fix to implement (Cloak already exists in the game, they don’t have to code it from scratch), and because ANet has explicitly said (a few months ago in a discussion about LR where players were suggesting effects other than stealth for LR) that they want LR to remain “Stealth based”.

Note: I haven’t played in months so I might have mixed up a few names, but the information is solid (assuming nothing has changed)

Any time there is a 4v5, the team with 5 players should get a prompt – they get 15 seconds for one player to volunteer to sit the match out. If no one volunteers, a player at random is chosen. The player sitting out is automatically awarded the same score as their teams top scored player.

Viola – no more 4v5’s – it’s not a perfect solution, but it’s leagues better than what is in use now (IE, absokitteninglutely nothing), and shouldn’t be hard to implement.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Karl McLain.5604:

Thanks for the well-composed feedback and civil conversation everyone. The effectiveness of stolen items is something we’ve talked about internally as well. With the lower recharge on Steal, we’re monitoring the effectiveness of a few of these abilities and continuing to collect your thoughts on the topic.
Cheers,
-Karl

I read this as, “Nice feedback. We’re not going to do anything about it. Have a nice day”

Perhaps you should take the hint?

Now I can’t be sure, but maybe they were talking about the traits?

I mean, I feel silly just saying that considering how they’re all pretty worthless, but it’s that or the fact that they didn’t delete the class entirely or remove stealth entirely or something like people keep crying for.

I’m fairly sure the Thief NPC in the mist shouldn’t be hitting for 2k per unload shot, or 4.5k on a single dagger storm hit – what’s up with the NPC’s?

Eli.4653:

• Does decent damage
• Steals two boons (Prioritizing stability)
• Heals self (around 2k)
• Poisons for 11s
• Dazes for 1s
• Grants 10s of fury, might, swiftness, AND vigor
• Gives 2 initiative
• Is instant cast an unavoidable
• Only a 21.5s cooldown

Who, I ask you who could have possibly foreseen that a skill would be powerful when 50% of the spec’s traits are directly dedicated to buffing it and only it? It’s madness I tell you, madness!

Oh, let’s also note you can evade/block/be immune to steal, and of course a blinded thief misses said steal, so “unavoidable” is false.

BurrTheKing.8571:

evilapprentice.6379:

BurrTheKing.8571:

What none of you have addressed is the fact that I provided clear evidence that every mechanic in this game has some form of counter but except for one skill stealth has none. .

snip

I swear some of you seem to refuse to read full posts before responding. Did I not JUST say that I win the majority of all my 1v1/Small scale fights (Our group of has taken out over double our number in the past)? The L2P argument doesn’t apply and if you read completely you would know that. I’m sure you’ll refuse to believe me because you would rather focus on personal attack but at the end of the day you can’t prove I am a bad player anymore than that I am a good one.

Win or lose, if you feel stealth is without counter, you need more practice with the thief class in general. Also, I feel you’re being a bit over-sensitive – “l2P Nub” is a personal attack, I was simply letting you know that I feel your assessment is incorrect, and that better knowledge of thief in general would probably help you.

You gave a total non-answer when you say “Stealth has a counter – It’s mostly rooted in knowing how to play the game.” You gave no actual counter besides “L2P” which is about the least helpful thing you could say.

I’ve typed out the list of counters a dozen times at least – if you’re interested in seeing them, feel free to peruse my post history. Despite pointing out the counters time and time again, people still come to the boards and claim it is without counter – at this point I’m no longer wasting my time giving each and every player who doesn’t understand thief mechanics a point by point explanation of how to counter stealth.

As for Berserker’s Stance, since you seem determined to shift the focus from stealth back to personal attacks based on what class I play (although you did throw in a few similar skills though AR is getting nerfed), it’s very different from stealth. The most important difference is that you can SEE the duration the skill will be active for. There’s no guessing, the guy will be glowing and there will be a very distinct icon under his name. It also only affects a single type of damage. If you force the Warrior to use both Zerk and Stability at the same time, you should be happy. You just forced them to use two long CD skills and as soon as they’re used up you’re free to go to work. Another fact about Zerker Stance, it initially only lasted 6 seconds and nobody used it because it didn’t last long enough to mount a significant offensive. It was only at 8 (how many people really trait into it when it means giving up Dogged March) that people started using it.

The most important point to all of this is that you always know what the other person is doing. There is no guessing, you see every attack. If they run, you know they are running away, not hiding nearby healing up while your skills are still on CD. If you built yourself right you should have some way to survive for 8-10 seconds on any class.

snip…

You’re taking this awful personally – I simply brought up Berserkers stance because it’s one of the few skills in the game that can actually leave another player almost completely without counter – Against a condition based spec, Berserker’s stance might as well read “Lawl, you’re kittened” – if you want to make it a complete counter, add Stability against a class that can’t strip boons. Mind you that’s a semi-specific case, but it still equates to almost complete immunity for X seconds.

What It sounds like to me is that you just hate stealth as a mechanic. Your complaints mostly stem from how annoying it is to fight stealth, rather than how uncounterable it is. I’m sorry that you find stealth annoying, but your displeasure does not constitute a need for changes. I hate fighting PU mesmers – they’re annoying, but I’m not ready to come to the boards and claim their mechanics need changing just because I dont like to fight them.

Cogbyrn.7283:

evilapprentice.6379:

BurrTheKing.8571:

What none of you have addressed is the fact that I provided clear evidence that every mechanic in this game has some form of counter but except for one skill stealth has none. .

What’s the counter for immunity skills?
Waiting?

What’s a condition spec’s counter to Berserker stance, (Current) AR, or Diamond skin?
Don’t play a condition spec? Bring a friend?

What’s the practical counter to Berserker’s Stance + Stability, especially for a class that can’t strip boons? Run away?

Stealth has a counter – It’s mostly rooted in knowing how to play the game. Certain setups are better or worse at it, but everyone has a chance if they have any idea what they’re doing and what spec of thief they’re facing. Yes, Stealth spam can be very annoying in WvW, but it’s not without counter. Stealth is much less powerful (most consider it UP) in PvP because of how easy it is to predict where a stealth player is, and how much it “costs” (In terms of winning the game) to sit in stealth and do nothing.

In short, learning to play the game will teach you how to counter stealth.

If you could only use stealth once every 60 seconds, I might agree with your initial comparisons. When you can go into stealth at least every 10 seconds, it just looks like you’re reaching really hard.

If stealth was as strong as any of the immunities I listed above, you’d have a point. It isn’t though, so you don’t.

Those abilities are plays the opponent is making to give themselves a window, besides immunities like Diamond Skin (which you could argue shouldn’t be in the game, and I would agree with that argument). Berserker’s Stance may be a bit on the long side, but the Warrior is saying “I’m going to come at you hard now”, and you have to deal with that using clever dodging/mobility/defensive counters. You roll with the punches until it ends, then it’s “your turn”. I don’t really see anything wrong with that.

I don’t see why you don’t have a problem with that. There are plenty of classes who’s Offense, Defense, or Both are almost entirely reliant on conditions. Against a number of specs, Berserker’s stance might as well read “You win the fight against condition reliant classes, unless there is a tremendous gap in skill”. -66% condition duration (like what they’re changing AR to IIRC) is what you’re describing above – complete immunity is more or less an “I win button” against any class who’s build relies on conditions.

I would have a problem if Warriors could go immune to conditions for 3-4 seconds every 10 seconds though. That would be annoying, and I’m sure people like yourself would come to the forums and say “Well there are ways to counter it, you just have to learn the game”.

Stealth isn’t an immunity to anything, but it might as well be most of the time.

How so?

And I’d be totally fine with Stealth if it was something that had a significant cooldown, or if it was a utility instead of a means for doing really strong burst damage.

And to the person saying the way to counter BP + HS is to use something to drop the blind then use something to counter the HS, you have approximately .5 seconds to do both. I hope you have some fast attacks at the ready, and good news: melee at range doesn’t clear blind like it used to. In my opinion, that combo is just way, way too convenient.

Stealth has counters. What stealth lacks is opportunity cost, and even then it lacks opportunity cost only in WvW.

In Pvp, you’re prevented from just sitting in stealth for extended periods of time due to the Capture Point format. The cost of just sitting in stealth to reset fights, or waiting a long time to get perfect positioning/timing is too high to use it for these purposes in the vast majority of scenario’s. Capture point also takes care of another issue people have with thieves (though it wasn’t mentioned here) in that their superior mobility allows for easy escapes – combined with stealth, players complain that thieves escape and reset fights too easily.

I wholeheartedly agree that there should be some mechanism in WvW that prevents thieves from sitting in stealth for extended periods of time to reap the benefits of SA and superior positioning. It should have a similar opportunity cost as it does in PvP to keep it balanced. That still doesn’t make leave stealth without a counter however – you’re arguing the wrong point.

BurrTheKing.8571:

What none of you have addressed is the fact that I provided clear evidence that every mechanic in this game has some form of counter but except for one skill stealth has none. .

What’s the counter for immunity skills?
Waiting?

What’s a condition spec’s counter to Berserker stance, (Current) AR, or Diamond skin?
Don’t play a condition spec? Bring a friend?

What’s the practical counter to Berserker’s Stance + Stability, especially for a class that can’t strip boons? Run away?

Stealth has a counter – It’s mostly rooted in knowing how to play the game. Certain setups are better or worse at it, but everyone has a chance if they have any idea what they’re doing and what spec of thief they’re facing. Yes, Stealth spam can be very annoying in WvW, but it’s not without counter. Stealth is much less powerful (most consider it UP) in PvP because of how easy it is to predict where a stealth player is, and how much it “costs” (In terms of winning the game) to sit in stealth and do nothing.

In short, learning to play the game will teach you how to counter stealth.