Guild Wars 2

Nerf thieves, thieves OP yo.

Any chance you’d be willing to share this particular build? It looks like a lot of fun to play.

Kirschwasser.3972:

/pedantry

At least you recognize it :P

(He’s asking them to think about their change/recognize what it means.)

she was probably upleveled from 2 on top of being naked on top of you having the BL buff…

Avatara.1042:

FluffyFox.2756:

Avatara.1042:

Shemsu.8721:

Lithril Ashwalker.6230:

noticed that i had to rip boons off of a guardian in order to soften it up with S/D on my thief…was with another guardian, we were against a mesmer and a guard. both repplaied boons without a problem, really glassy however i dont see where S/D Larcenous needs a change at all if its a negative change…if anything it needs a buff , a slgiht buff to actually assist in softening up targets more, theyll just easily reapply buffs without a problem..
WHERE…is Larcenous “OP”…seems to be Underpowered if anything.

Pretty much this exactly, in its current state you can burn all your resources cleaning someone of boons, and 3 seconds later the guard/ele/eng/mesmer will have full stacks of everything again while your at maybe 20% initiative. Thats why it was not a worthwhile counter before the buff, and it will again be worthless if its changed as suggested

That is just not true.

Nice counter argument! :P

If they’re going to nerf larcenous strike again, they’d better make it faster, or cost less initiative, because as it is now, it’s a total initiative drain and it’s really slow compared to the old flanking strike, even though the old flanking strike only stripped one boon, it was inexpensive and quick. The nerf to Larcenous strike could make it almost worthless.

Well it was quite obviously false. If you want to argue for changing something, you should actually make real statements.

Solid reasoning on this (he wasn’t asking for change, he was asking them not to change it…)

JudgeD.5673:

liefbread.9513:

JudgeD.5673:

My big complaint with engineer is not stealth but stability. Eng has a certain skill chain to give a good bit of stealth, but for stability, only using 6 Lyssa runes + elite or 50% with elixir X (also elite) are our only options.
This change to Elixir B will benefit me greatly as I tend to be a heavy elixir user. I support the change to Throw Elixir S as well since that can now be stacked with the previous mentioned stealth skill chain.

the thief sits with his hand on his chin please, tell me more about your dire need for stability you poor baby.

I don’t play a thief, so I am not sure of all the details, but thieves have more than one stealth option do they not? Right now, the only good stealth option is an interrupt-able skill chain. Therefore, it seems to me lack of stability for a thief is not as bad as for engineer since they have access to more stealth to counter that lack.
From my point of view, the only good option (ignoring Lyssa runes and elites) is CC avoidance, which can be hard to do when you have multiple attackers. In a zerg fight, at least there’s some stability from guardians etc., but otherwise the engineer remains vulnerable to any CCs, specifically stun/knockdown. A 3 sec stun can mean downed in my experience, and while I do not call for the sort of stability that warrior etc. has, adding it to Elixir B is a step in the right direction.

Yeah, but haven’t you heard, stealth is OP and everyone wants to hard counter or get rid of it all together, thieves don’t need stealth

JudgeD.5673:

My big complaint with engineer is not stealth but stability. Eng has a certain skill chain to give a good bit of stealth, but for stability, only using 6 Lyssa runes + elite or 50% with elixir X (also elite) are our only options.
This change to Elixir B will benefit me greatly as I tend to be a heavy elixir user. I support the change to Throw Elixir S as well since that can now be stacked with the previous mentioned stealth skill chain.

the thief sits with his hand on his chin please, tell me more about your dire need for stability you poor baby.

Daendur.2357:

Give thieves a disarm skill
“Prevent your opponent to use weapons for x seconds”

You buff (lol) venom sharing that requires 30points in the stealth line and you nerf stealth.

Nice.

At least move venomous aura to another tier (maybe deadly arts – or trickery) so we can make a decent (?) build based on venoms.

I believe you’re thinking of a daze, also holy kitten at implying that venoms will ever be part of a “decent build”

Dual.8953:

Cause in Spvp, people say S/D Thieves have effectively kicked Mesmer and Elementalist out of the meta.

Don’t forget “neutered guardians.” we clearly do that too.

SpaceCowboy.1398:

Hi group, my name is Cowboy and I am a P/P Thief.

I’m happy to hear the devs are looking into Thief P/P. From the posts on these forums it seems a good number of people like a ranged playstyle with their Thieves.

There’s a couple issues with P/P and ranged combat with Thieves that I think are very important.

Vital Shot – Pistol #1
The skill is suppose to take 0.5s, but with after cast it is over 0.75s. Others on the forums have done more accurate testing than me. This needs to be fixed cause a Thief Pistol fires as fast or slower than a Warrior’s Rifle. It makes players rely on Unload as their main damage skill, rather than a source of quick burst.

Body Shot – Pistol #2
I hope this is the mainhand pistol skill you are looking into regarding support options. Nobody likes the Vulnerability. What many Thieves want to see is Body Shot become a Blast finisher. Alternatively, it could add an evasive leap backwards and be a Leap finisher similar to Heartseeker. This would give P/P more defensive options and mobility.

Range
Both WvW and PvE have many circumstances where having a 1200 range weapon matters. I would really like to see a trait added that gives either Shortbow or Pistol 1200 range. We are the only profession without a 1200 range weapon, which seems quite an error for a game that was trying to be flexible and do away with the existing paradigm.

Thanks and I look forward to the updates!
-Cowboy

What this guy said, maybe increasing the speed of vital shot and giving it vulnerability stacks instead of bleed stacks… Make body shot be a leap backward evasion or do more damage at close range or something to that effect… I suppose an immobilize effect would also work.

also

My thief fully heals while stealthed…

still going at it?

rshadowkirby.3548:

PLEASE fix ranger traits
all i want so i can play this game are ranger traits that dont feel so bad compared to other traits

for example, every single other class gets an additional bonus to their signet cooldown reduction skills

all we get is cooldown reduction

please make ranger traits a bit better (combine some if you must)

Isn’t there a ranger signet cooldown reduction in the first traitline?… 20% or something?

trait IV?

I’d just like to see pistols reworked to not be a pseudo condition weapon.

Maybe I’m alone on that one.

also quarterstaves, I really want to play an acrobatics melee thief with blocks, knockdowns, etc…

Conncept.7638:

liefbread.9513:

It took some thinking, but I think I have something relevant for you Conncept, it may not be what you’re looking for… but the average stealth is 3-4s, assuming you backstab you have 4 seconds of revealed, assuming you chain another cloak and dagger you get revealed before you disappear again (its like, a second, but you are visible). If you use heartseeker through gunpowder… well there’s a blind circle on the ground, if you’re in a shadow refuge…. well a lot of attacks sweep through a shadow refuge.

I don’t know if you consider that “reasonable” but it seems reasonable to me.

Regardless, for some reason I’m coming to like you… you make me think.

I’m glad you are taking the time to research the game but that really isn’t what I mean. Those things are great for high level players, who, if I may be frank, I do not care about. The average player is not going learn those things, nor should they have to. They play a few hours a week to relax and enjoy, and wouldn’t notice those things at the end of the day when they play even if they had the time to. And they should not be pushed out of PvP because of real life limitations, as happened far too often in GW1.

The casual player needs concepts which apply across a broad base of abilities in a logical manner.

That player is evading, hold back on your burst. That player has a lot of pets, AoE them. Getting kited, use a gap closer. That’s a high armor opponent, use conditions. Player closing in? Use an escape. That player is low on health, heal him. Team needs extra damage, lay down your boon fields. Player using his ult, use one in kind. And then there is dodge and interrupts, a readily available offensive and defensive response to everything.

All of these are basic effects found somewhere on most any combination of abilities, and they apply in a logical manner as a response to some group of abilities or other. That is counterplay, a lot of people don’t realize this game is actually really really well designed in that aspect. They just need to get certain things evened out between the classes and this game will be a thing of beauty.

But stealth is one of a few hiccups within that design system, those things with which you can respond to it are too few and vary too much between stealth’s varying methods of application. And this change they are about to make, really isn’t going to help. All it is going to do is make players decide while building, rather than playing, whether stealth irks them enough to slot a stealth breaker. There are already abilities in the game which have the problem they are about to recreate with stealth, boons and conditions. You either have slotted boon stripping or you have not, you either have condition removal or you don’t. There is no real play between opponents with boons and conditions, and they are about to make stealth the same way.

This is really well though out and I agree with it in many ways, I do agree that stealth needs to be reworked, but I don’t know if removing it entirely is the right decision. I’m trying to think why it “worked” in WoW but doesn’t in GW2, but WoW even had perma-stealth (for multiple classes)… I’m rusty on my mechanics play though.

raahk.2786:

Knote.2904:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Knote.2904:

No, you obviously don’t know how to play your thief then.

It’s by far the easiest and most forgiving class to level (next to necro). I can literally take on 20 mobs.

Don’t assume I don’t know what I’m doing and I won’t assume you’re an elitist that doesn’t know what they’re talking about either, kk?

If you knew then you wouldn’t have said what you said…

It’s not being elitist, it’s called a fact, you don’t see me calling you names.

You insulted his skill level by saying “You don’t know how to play your thief then”, which isn’t a fact, it’s an opinion of yours, just saying.

I think what concept has been trying to say is that there’s no direct counters to stealth, up until rangers get the “Sic Em” skill. As in, you push a button, suddenly stealth is gone.
I’d like to make a suggestion for something that allows me to strip the passive effects of a warrior’s signet, or to shatter multiple mesmer clones or destroy minions at the push of a button (which, funny enough, were actual skills in the original game, except you just took control of them, or blew up one depending on which skill you used).
Or, to take another queue from the original game, have a way to where I can disrupt a target’s stance as the original game also had.

The boon/strip boon metagame is getting rather old.

FWIW, after re-reading it, the skill is targeted, it doesn’t de-stealth someone. It just applies to revealed debuff to someone who is currently unstealthed. (which I can live with)

Knote.2904:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Knote.2904:

SynfulChaot.3169:

I hold that elementalists and thieves are equally weak while levelling until they receive their traits as well.

Wow… no, just no.

Don’t you even go there, you obviously aren’t playing correctly.

Thief is probably by far the most efficient and easiest class to solo/level with and Elementalist is probably the hardest.

Thief is fine if you only ever aggro one at a time. Maybe two. More than that, especially at low level, and you’re kittened. As you level, though, and gain traits then it gets better. But at low level thief is just too squish.

raahk.2786:

Nah, wrongo. Thief is pretty easy to level using Sword/Pistol, I’d have to say the easiest is again, the pve king, warrior, while mesmer is definitely the hardest, or at least the most tedious. Most mesmer players say that their class doesn’t become fun until about level forty or so.

No. They really don’t. As a mesmer you practically require the traits to be useful and fun. And the useful utilities as well. Before that is a drag.

No, you obviously don’t know how to play your thief then.

It’s by far the easiest and most forgiving class to level. I can literally take on 20 mobs.

literally?

(all those things reveal your position allowing you to be targeted)

It took some thinking, but I think I have something relevant for you Conncept, it may not be what you’re looking for… but the average stealth is 3-4s, assuming you backstab you have 4 seconds of revealed, assuming you chain another cloak and dagger you get revealed before you disappear again (its like, a second, but you are visible). If you use heartseeker through gunpowder… well there’s a blind circle on the ground, if you’re in a shadow refuge…. well a lot of attacks sweep through a shadow refuge.

I don’t know if you consider that “reasonable” but it seems reasonable to me.

Regardless, for some reason I’m coming to like you… you make me think.

Levetty.1279:

Has anybody mentioned in this thread yet about Pet stats and Ascended equipment. Ranger is getting the short end of the stick with this new gear tier.

Rangers always get the short end of the stick, don’t you know? Anet hates the middle class. I mean… Medium armor classes.

(what randomized crap are you buying from the gem store, that’s supposed to be where your stuff is guaranteed… Also thieves will either try to be getting away, or try to get behind you, it doesn’t take stealth removal to find a thief)

ALSO I just reread the patch notes, I was unclear on exactly how sic’em is going to work and I’m pretty ok with it actually. It’s a targeted ability so it won’t hit you in stealth anyway. It’ll only hit you when you’re out of stealth…. I really don’t have a problem with that, I do think thieves (and stealth) need a re-work though.

(it’s not cooking the air if you probe with an autoattack first, if you hit your auto attack chain will go into its second portion)

Kirschwasser.3972:

liefbread.9513:

Burnfall.9573:

liefbread.9513:

Burnfall.9573:

If Arena.net was to sum all the posts in one gigantic post, it would read, “Thief class core mechanics Nerf is Overdue!” – “slap on the wrist Nerf” is not allowed.

Arena.net, isn’t it too obvious.. the only class who gets the most Injustice Backlash in all thiefis blance/stealth thread is the thief class?

Than if it isn’t obvious, than why you remain Silent and continue in Justifying and Contributing (behind the sceen) more overpower tools to this Injust Overpower class?

Not forgetting intentionally rewarding this class with more undeserving rewards.
Torment, "does that ring a bell’?

After 1 year+, i realize all these great posts and threads concerning thief overpowerdness are just another trash to be thrown in the trashcan.

So many wonderful and beautiful ideas in oppinions, suggestion and recommendations to thief class balance and adjustments, are just reasons for Arena.net to reward them more.

As i stated many times already, “Thief is Arena.net” and Warrior is thier “side-kick”.

In other word, we are all “kitten”

So to the remaining non-Favorite justice blelieves, what are our options,

Should we continue in believing anything these Ego-savy Selfish Prideful Injustice Practicioners have to say? or "turn the other cheek or even; as the saying goes, “Turn away from those who practice Injustice and follow those who Emcbraces Justice”?

You have the power.
You hold the answer.
The choice is in ur hands..

That was really wordy and I don’t know exactly what you’re saying.

But if you follow the general trend of “stealth classes” in any game… like… any game ever… You’ll see that we’re always the “OMG UBER OP CLASS” (no matter the situation) there are always people calling for nerfs and there will always be a core group of people from that class fighting against it.

Are you talking about the class of thief as in “they are thieves therefore evil?” like, not even on a “this class is full of evil players who abuse the system” basis, but on a “this class is supposed to represent some malicious entity in the storyline of the game” kind of level?

Do you see these “buffs” as rewards? Do you really see thieves making use of torment… ever? I don’t.

I dunno, maybe I’m missing something here, but it seems to me you talked circles around yourself trying to make your statements sound important… when in reality they just came out garbled. It would be amazing if you could clarify your intent a bit.

No matter how many times i rewrite it,

it all comes about the same,

In othe word,

this is the best i can do.

For great justice.

ftfy

Ty

Burnfall.9573:

liefbread.9513:

Burnfall.9573:

If Arena.net was to sum all the posts in one gigantic post, it would read, “Thief class core mechanics Nerf is Overdue!” – “slap on the wrist Nerf” is not allowed.

Arena.net, isn’t it too obvious.. the only class who gets the most Injustice Backlash in all thiefis blance/stealth thread is the thief class?

Than if it isn’t obvious, than why you remain Silent and continue in Justifying and Contributing (behind the sceen) more overpower tools to this Injust Overpower class?

Not forgetting intentionally rewarding this class with more undeserving rewards.
Torment, "does that ring a bell’?

After 1 year+, i realize all these great posts and threads concerning thief overpowerdness are just another trash to be thrown in the trashcan.

So many wonderful and beautiful ideas in oppinions, suggestion and recommendations to thief class balance and adjustments, are just reasons for Arena.net to reward them more.

As i stated many times already, “Thief is Arena.net” and Warrior is thier “side-kick”.

In other word, we are all “kitten”

So to the remaining non-Favorite justice blelieves, what are our options,

Should we continue in believing anything these Ego-savy Selfish Prideful Injustice Practicioners have to say? or "turn the other cheek or even; as the saying goes, “Turn away from those who practice Injustice and follow those who Emcbraces Justice”?

You have the power.
You hold the answer.
The choice is in ur hands..

That was really wordy and I don’t know exactly what you’re saying.

But if you follow the general trend of “stealth classes” in any game… like… any game ever… You’ll see that we’re always the “OMG UBER OP CLASS” (no matter the situation) there are always people calling for nerfs and there will always be a core group of people from that class fighting against it.

Are you talking about the class of thief as in “they are thieves therefore evil?” like, not even on a “this class is full of evil players who abuse the system” basis, but on a “this class is supposed to represent some malicious entity in the storyline of the game” kind of level?

Do you see these “buffs” as rewards? Do you really see thieves making use of torment… ever? I don’t.

I dunno, maybe I’m missing something here, but it seems to me you talked circles around yourself trying to make your statements sound important… when in reality they just came out garbled. It would be amazing if you could clarify your intent a bit.

No matter how many times i rewrite it,

it all comes about the same,

In othe word,

this is the best i can do.

For justice.

In addition, most classes, depending on how they’re built, take at least 3 (usually 4) backstabs to kill (assuming they’re not running full zerker, which I already gave my thoughts on). Even in a permastealth build, that’s a minimum of 12 seconds that I am not in stealth, given every classes access to CC, dodges, conditions, blocks, invuln, and AOE I personally think that 12s is enough of a time window to do something to decommission someone/interact with their opponent in some capacity.

liefbread.9513:

If I’m fighting a guardian I’m going to be blind every time I go into stealth, so those backstabs will never land.

If I’m fighting a mesmer, chances are they’ll be greatsword channeling me and will know where I am running when I stealth (GS3 sweeps me away + knockdown, they also have access to focus 4 and sword 2 or 3 allows them to evade my attacks).

If I’m fighting a warrior they can cleave with their lovely greatsword swings, block my backstab with their offhand shield, and proceed to CC me into the ground (or they’re running hammer/mace and will just CC me into the ground off the bat).

Necros can fear me (yes, even when in stealth) and load me up with conditions.

Elementalists can blast AOE, drop massive fields, and generally be evasive (once again unless we’re both in zerker gear and I just one shot/two shot them, that’s their own fault).

Longbow rangers can outposition/range us and have their own suite of CC, as well as being able to swap to SB or axes for sweeping attacks and conditions.

Engineers have their own suite of AOE attacks (bomb kit?) and massive condition damage. Everyone has a way of dealing with us being in stealth…

Here’s the post I was specifically referencing, ways that various professions interact with stealthed players. (the game is about interacting with the players, not countering their abilities, in my experience and personal unprofessional opinion)

That said, you keep saying that “no one can say what’s good for balance unless they’re a professional player.” and quite frankly… I haven’t seen your name posted in any leader board or tournament… ever. So I don’t think you have any more authority on this subject than anyone else. Anet posted this because they wanted to give the community a heads up and they wanted the communities opinion, you have no right to tell people their opinion is unimportant because they are not “good enough” at the game… You can provide counter arguments, but thus far you have not, you’re just insulting everyone…

Conncept.7638:

liefbread.9513:

Conncept.7638:

infantrydiv.1620:

Actually, I main necromancer (I have more hours of playtime + pvp on it). And it is a hell of a lot easier to play than thief. Also, I don’t know what you are on about claiming that only professional gamers can talk about actual balance instead of just screaming that stealth is the most overpowered mechanic in the game. I also don’t know where you got the idea that there actually are professional gamers playing GW2 pvp. LOL.

If you knew anything about this game’s pvp, you would know that builds that bring more team support are almost always better for it. A pure glass cannon thief CAN insta-gank glass and medium toughness builds. Yet, strangely enough, it doesn’t matter. This is why you don’t see these types of thieves in high level competitive play.

The other point I’d like to make: certain classes excel at 1v1, certain classes excel at support. Thief and mesmer and the primary 1v1 classes of GW2. Thieves are meant to be assassins. However, 1v1 is not important AT ALL in this game. Roaming in WvW is maybe fun, but it doesn’t actually serve a purpose. A build dedicated to only 1v1 fighting will lose tournaments. It’ll also be bad for PvE, it’ll be bad for zerging. Earlier today I fought a couple of tournaments against a pure glass thief on my glass guardian. This guy could down me pretty fast, but he brought nothing to his team other than that ability. Whenever my team showed up to help he would die before he could stomp me. So he was actually a negative for his team, when he could have played something like guardian or ranger and brought massive team utility

Once again….

It

Does

Not

Matter

What you think or even claim to know about high level play. And has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on what needs to be done with the game. A game is an interactive experience, if any portion of a game contains something which at any time removes or prevents interaction, that is a problem which needs to be addressed. Stealth removes interaction, all interaction in fact. It does not matter what level of PvP play or parts of WvW in which it is useful.

And I noticed, you still have yet to actually name any of these direct counters to stealth which you claim exist. So please, enlighten me.

Stealth literally does not remove interaction in any capacity and I already stated how in a previous post, please go back and read it.

Well then, if you can, literally explain how that is so, because I have checked your posts and all you have stated are your expectations about how people should and should not play in your little world. None of your business in the first place if I may say, if the majority of players do not wish to to play a certain way, and feel forced to by how others play, that’s a problem not a solution. There should be choice, in a properly made game, there would be.

So if there is a mechanical counter to this, which does not apply to all abilities in kind, what is it?

EDIT: And if you say AoE, wait and dodge, or don’t try to solo them in the first place, I’m just going to laugh at you.

It does not need a mechanical counter, AOE does hit them, stealth does not immediately clear all conditions (unless traited specifically for removing one condition every 3 seconds.) and regular attacks do as well… It doesn’t need a specific counter to remove it because every normal skill set can still interact with a stealthed individual (excluding a handful of abilities that cannot be cast without a target)

A thief swinging a dagger, will hit a stealthed player in front of them, a warrior swinging a greatsword or doing an area knockdown will still knock down a stealthed player…

Conncept.7638:

infantrydiv.1620:

Actually, I main necromancer (I have more hours of playtime + pvp on it). And it is a hell of a lot easier to play than thief. Also, I don’t know what you are on about claiming that only professional gamers can talk about actual balance instead of just screaming that stealth is the most overpowered mechanic in the game. I also don’t know where you got the idea that there actually are professional gamers playing GW2 pvp. LOL.

If you knew anything about this game’s pvp, you would know that builds that bring more team support are almost always better for it. A pure glass cannon thief CAN insta-gank glass and medium toughness builds. Yet, strangely enough, it doesn’t matter. This is why you don’t see these types of thieves in high level competitive play.

The other point I’d like to make: certain classes excel at 1v1, certain classes excel at support. Thief and mesmer and the primary 1v1 classes of GW2. Thieves are meant to be assassins. However, 1v1 is not important AT ALL in this game. Roaming in WvW is maybe fun, but it doesn’t actually serve a purpose. A build dedicated to only 1v1 fighting will lose tournaments. It’ll also be bad for PvE, it’ll be bad for zerging. Earlier today I fought a couple of tournaments against a pure glass thief on my glass guardian. This guy could down me pretty fast, but he brought nothing to his team other than that ability. Whenever my team showed up to help he would die before he could stomp me. So he was actually a negative for his team, when he could have played something like guardian or ranger and brought massive team utility

Once again….

It

Does

Not

Matter

What you think or even claim to know about high level play. And has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on what needs to be done with the game. A game is an interactive experience, if any portion of a game contains something which at any time removes or prevents interaction, that is a problem which needs to be addressed. Stealth removes interaction, all interaction in fact. It does not matter what level of PvP play or parts of WvW in which it is useful.

And I noticed, you still have yet to actually name any of these direct counters to stealth which you claim exist. So please, enlighten me.

Stealth literally does not remove interaction in any capacity and I already stated how in a previous post, please go back and read it.

infantrydiv.1620:

Conncept.7638:

infantrydiv.1620:

snipd

stabd

moretextquotes

And this kind of nails my point home, this is a person who plays multiple classes, including thief, and isn’t dedicated to the thief class, but understands where we currently sit in terms of utility in various aspects of the game. I feel that most people who have leveled more than one class and have learned the different interactions between them have something of a better understanding of all this nonsense then the people just yelling for nerfs/hard counters.

Burnfall.9573:

If Arena.net was to sum all the posts in one gigantic post, it would read, “Thief class core mechanics Nerf is Overdue!” – “slap on the wrist Nerf” is not allowed.

Arena.net, isn’t it too obvious.. the only class who gets the most Injustice Backlash in all thiefis blance/stealth thread is the thief class?

Than if it isn’t obvious, than why you remain Silent and continue in Justifying and Contributing (behind the sceen) more overpower tools to this Injust Overpower class?

Not forgetting intentionally rewarding this class with more undeserving rewards.
Torment, "does that ring a bell’?

After 1 year+, i realize all these great posts and threads concerning thief overpowerdness are just another trash to be thrown in the trashcan.

So many wonderful and beautiful ideas in oppinions, suggestion and recommendations to thief class balance and adjustments, are just reasons for Arena.net to reward them more.

As i stated many times already, “Thief is Arena.net” and Warrior is thier “side-kick”.

In other word, we are all “kitten”

So to the remaining non-Favorite justice blelieves, what are our options,

Should we continue in believing anything these Ego-savy Selfish Prideful Injustice Practicioners have to say? or "turn the other cheek or even; as the saying goes, “Turn away from those who practice Injustice and follow those who Emcbraces Justice”?

You have the power.
You hold the answer.
The choice is in ur hands..

That was really wordy and I don’t know exactly what you’re saying.

But if you follow the general trend of “stealth classes” in any game… like… any game ever… You’ll see that we’re always the “OMG UBER OP CLASS” (no matter the situation) there are always people calling for nerfs and there will always be a core group of people from that class fighting against it.

Are you talking about the class of thief as in “they are thieves therefore evil?” like, not even on a “this class is full of evil players who abuse the system” basis, but on a “this class is supposed to represent some malicious entity in the storyline of the game” kind of level?

Do you see these “buffs” as rewards? Do you really see thieves making use of torment… ever? I don’t.

I dunno, maybe I’m missing something here, but it seems to me you talked circles around yourself trying to make your statements sound important… when in reality they just came out garbled. It would be amazing if you could clarify your intent a bit.

Sanduskel.1850:

I find my thief to be really op’d in wvw. I really don’t die in solo fights unless i want to. This is wrong and should be balanced. Thank you anet.

seems legit.

Nuka Cola.8520:

you don’t refuge inside a ball of people… thanks god you have access to shadow steps and other stealth utilities.

@yolo so you’d say a zerker nec is better to solo roam than a zerker BS thief? then please tell me why almost every single time you’ll find a person alone that is there to solo roam//duel is always a thief? Thief has mobility to help you survive in zerker gear plus stealth, you can’t beat that for survival unless you’re on a warrior with sword/shield+GS and some mobility utilities.

Sorry, I was eating, thieves solo roam (are the most popular solo roaming class) because we are built to have quick engage and disengage, but in a 1v1 fight zerker gear still leaves you very squishy and vulnerable to classes you could normally easily kitten without it (mesmers and rangers, who also frequently roam), thieves are also (as a class) built really poorly for WvW zerg play (we basically just try to kill strays or scorpion wire people into the zerg if we’re in the zerg) and our class tailors us to supply denial… which leads to roaming. A zerk (I personally prefer rampagers) necro is better in a zerg than a zerk thief will ever be though. (they have a very high base hit pool, I think in near full rampagers I’m at 18k HP on my necro, but I can’t hop on right now to check)

Smoke.8510:

Can you tell us more about the “changes to some of the Ranger weapons”. Rangers have been ignored for so long we get nervous when you say you’re changing something.

I feel you ranger friend.

Nuka Cola.8520:

liefbread.9513:

Nuka Cola.8520:

“Successfully killing the target(s) isn’t as easy” are ppl for real with this? Stealth+burst+CnD stomp and move to another target…. what you say? you failed to burst? well that’s cool cuz i can CnD, couple of hearseekers from target to gain space+refuge and get out to then re-burst again. So hard.

It seems you’re operating under the assumption that our target is standing still, and we’re both in full zerker gear.

A WvW thief (a good one) does not run full zerker gear, I personally run full Valkyrie for WvW.

you should never rely on gear to judge some1’s skill, zerker has nothing to do with me, you or some1 else being bad, just sayin.

I’m surprised that’s all you had a problem with everything I was saying, but as a general rule running full zerker is WvW (even as an uber OP thief that never gets hit) is suicide.

Also to address the “there’s no better class for mashing buttons than thief.” I personally like running elementalist as my “I push buttons so I can push more buttons” class. (nothing against elementalists, just that there are a lot of buttons to push at all times).

Nuka Cola.8520:

“Successfully killing the target(s) isn’t as easy” are ppl for real with this? Stealth+burst+CnD stomp and move to another target…. what you say? you failed to burst? well that’s cool cuz i can CnD, couple of hearseekers from target to gain space+refuge and get out to then re-burst again. So hard.

It seems you’re operating under the assumption that our target is standing still, and we’re both in full zerker gear.

A WvW thief (a good one) does not run full zerker gear, I personally run full Valkyrie for WvW.

If I’m fighting a guardian I’m going to be blind every time I go into stealth, so those backstabs will never land.

If I’m fighting a mesmer, chances are they’ll be greatsword channeling me and will know where I am running when I stealth (GS3 sweeps me away + knockdown, they also have access to focus 4 and sword 2 or 3 allows them to evade my attacks).

If I’m fighting a warrior they can cleave with their lovely greatsword swings, block my backstab with their offhand shield, and proceed to CC me into the ground (or they’re running hammer/mace and will just CC me into the ground off the bat).

Necros can fear me (yes, even when in stealth) and load me up with conditions.

Elementalists can blast AOE, drop massive fields, and generally be evasive (once again unless we’re both in zerker gear and I just one shot/two shot them, that’s their own fault).

Longbow rangers can outposition/range us and have their own suite of CC, as well as being able to swap to SB or axes for sweeping attacks and conditions.

Engineers have their own suite of AOE attacks (bomb kit?) and massive condition damage. Everyone has a way of dealing with us being in stealth…

You seem to think people don’t have lines of play against thieves.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Don’t even try to deny that a thief is the easiest class to play… even skull crack/100swags warrior is harder and that is telling a lot. im also rank 32 in spvp so i’ve played enough of this crappy pvp as well. I also noticed something, ppl that play only thief will rarely agree that the class is broken but another player that is skilled and plays a thief (as his main) but also plays other classes and is good with them will most certainly agree that thief is unbalanced in its current state. If it was me i’d remove all stealth and stealth related traits from that game and rework thief completely (of course this will never happen). the game is supposed to be skill vs skill and not skill vs nothing cuz the thief just refuged and heartseeker across the map.

I too believe that thief needs a re-work, I don’t know if removing stealth is the way to go about it. But your complaints are about our class design, not thieves in general, you’re not asking for nerfs, you’re asking for fundamental changes to our class (which 9/10 thieves would agree with) if you’re telling me that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agpikmObUxs that requires no skill, even to get that amount of positioning, in and out of combat and to take advantage of the classes mobility (those are the skills that we develop, and those ARE skills, because its how our class was designed to play). Then I can’t say much beyond “you are off your rocker.”

Conncept.7638:

raahk.2786:

And that “least amount of risk for the greatest amount of reward” is complete trite. One mistake as a thief, a missed cloak and dagger, an ill-timed dodge, can mean…

…that you have to break the brainless DPS combo any four year old could do, drop in to stealth, and run away like pig-tailed little girl?

May I ask what class you play in WvW? Also, we do’t run away

like a pig-tailed little girl?

, we run away like a thief, because that’s how our class was designed to play. Should we sit there and get hit until you get a free kill? Our “brainless DPS combo” requires positioning and significant amounts of timing (I’m also curious as to exactly what combo you’re referring to).

Nuka Cola.8520:

liefbread.9513:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Conncept.7638:

Black Teagan.9215:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Fade.7658:

This thread has essentially become a forum for suggestions on how to nerf thieves into the ground.

i didn’t read the whole thing and haven’t seen a single post about thieves but all stealth related skills must be toned tone. A game trying to become esports has no counter for the stealth mechanic is laughable.

Stealth have enough counter, but this isnt the reason for my reply.

The thiefbalance (his low hp and no exist deff), was build around the fact that stealth has direct counter. That mean if all class a stealthcounter skill and the thief dont a buff in health, heal or dmg, to equalizes this, will this result in a nerf.

A counter is not a counter when it is solely in the hands of the person who needs to be countered. In it’s current state, being entirely in the hands of the thief, revealed is a control mechanism, not a counter. When it is available to others, then it’s a counter.

And if you say or even think ‘AoE Spam’, your opinion is void. AoE spam works in most other games because they have resource control and much more limited movement. Resource control allows the developers to make low CD AoEs and rely on ‘mana’ to balance their use. More limited movement sets a a clear range where the stealthed player could be. Excepting thieves, GW2 has no resource control and almost no spammable AoEs, and the distance a thief is able to cover is not only huge compared to most games, is by far the most of any class in the game itself.

Furthermore, in case you haven’t noticed, the same pool of stats are available to everyone in the game, thieves can build any stat just as well as any other class The difference is, because of zero counterplay defensive mechanics, they don’t even need certain stats. You don’t ‘balance’ something by sacrificing something that wasn’t needed in the first place.

perfectly well explained and ppl that play thief and defend it to death so their little stealth never gets a counter should think for a sec.

People that refer to it as “their little stealth” should play the class and understand how its mechanics work. You should try actually playing the class you’re suggesting deserves hard counters and nerfs. The individuals who defend thief to the death are the ones who have played the class, there are SEVERAL people ITT who have stepped up to defend thief who don’t main it, but recognize how the mechanics of the class work.

i play mesmer, thief is all i find during solo roams, i know how it works thank you…

Mesmer is to thief as thief is to guardian, you don’t know how it works at all because you are our squish class, you are the class we target in team fights and zergs, you are our “free pass” as far as bias goes, you are THE bias.

Conncept.7638:

liefbread.9513:

All that said, if we’re getting on the topic of “other weapons for thieves” I’d like a quarterstaff please, heavy melee range CC/knockdown/evasive spec -.o/

So you want to be a monk? Wouldn’t that fit the ranger better?

Also I should say, I think more of a druidic/philidic theme would work better for a ranger w/ a staff personally.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Conncept.7638:

Black Teagan.9215:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Fade.7658:

This thread has essentially become a forum for suggestions on how to nerf thieves into the ground.

i didn’t read the whole thing and haven’t seen a single post about thieves but all stealth related skills must be toned tone. A game trying to become esports has no counter for the stealth mechanic is laughable.

Stealth have enough counter, but this isnt the reason for my reply.

The thiefbalance (his low hp and no exist deff), was build around the fact that stealth has direct counter. That mean if all class a stealthcounter skill and the thief dont a buff in health, heal or dmg, to equalizes this, will this result in a nerf.

A counter is not a counter when it is solely in the hands of the person who needs to be countered. In it’s current state, being entirely in the hands of the thief, revealed is a control mechanism, not a counter. When it is available to others, then it’s a counter.

And if you say or even think ‘AoE Spam’, your opinion is void. AoE spam works in most other games because they have resource control and much more limited movement. Resource control allows the developers to make low CD AoEs and rely on ‘mana’ to balance their use. More limited movement sets a a clear range where the stealthed player could be. Excepting thieves, GW2 has no resource control and almost no spammable AoEs, and the distance a thief is able to cover is not only huge compared to most games, is by far the most of any class in the game itself.

Furthermore, in case you haven’t noticed, the same pool of stats are available to everyone in the game, thieves can build any stat just as well as any other class The difference is, because of zero counterplay defensive mechanics, they don’t even need certain stats. You don’t ‘balance’ something by sacrificing something that wasn’t needed in the first place.

perfectly well explained and ppl that play thief and defend it to death so their little stealth never gets a counter should think for a sec.

People that refer to it as “their little stealth” should play the class and understand how its mechanics work. You should try actually playing the class you’re suggesting deserves hard counters and nerfs. The individuals who defend thief to the death are the ones who have played the class, there are SEVERAL people ITT who have stepped up to defend thief who don’t main it, but recognize how the mechanics of the class work.

Conncept.7638:

liefbread.9513:

All that said, if we’re getting on the topic of “other weapons for thieves” I’d like a quarterstaff please, heavy melee range CC/knockdown/evasive spec -.o/

So you want to be a monk? Wouldn’t that ranger fit that better?

Would a monk be more equivalent to a ranger or a thief?..

I’ll let you decide.

That said, monks generally are healing focused in the history of the Guild Wars franchise, but I’m thinking more like an aggressive acrobatic fighting style.

All that said, if we’re getting on the topic of “other weapons for thieves” I’d like a quarterstaff please, heavy melee range CC/knockdown/evasive spec -.o/

Part 3 – Closing/TLDR

To anyone who wants to complain about thieves abusing stealth/being OP, I have one request, if you have an open character slot, make a thief. Take it into sPvP, look up a meta build. I would recommend Jumper’s http://intothemists.com/guides/250-sd_the_flanking_acrobat S/D thief, or http://intothemists.com/guides/5-cruuks_decapitation_build Cruups D/P & S/P build. Try running it for an hour, come back and tell me how easy it is to abuse our stealth mechanics. Thieves fight so hard/lash out so much against nerfs because we play our class and we know the skill cap for doing what we do.

People who play thieves do it because they’re dedicated to the class, not because it’s OP. I would have a much easier time dominating in PvP on my bunker guard or running around with my Bitcloud styled Elementalist in WvW, I choose to play thief because sliding in and out of combat is my desired play style and I know that with the practice I’ve put into it I can “make it work.”, I’m dedicated to the class and I really want to see it be a force of its own without “abusing gimmicks”… But that practice came through me learning 5 other classes, that’s what it took for me to be effective in PvP.

I’m not asking you to not suggest changes to stealth, I’m not asking you to speak out against our nerfs for us, I’m not asking you to suggest buffs for us. I’m asking for you to not call for nerfs of a class that you don’t know or understand the mechanics of until you make an effort to learn those mechanics yourself, I would never call for nerfs to a ranger or a mesmer, because I don’t know the classes in and out.

Part 2

That effectively rules out P/P builds (this weapon sets primary attack has a focus on stacking bleed). So then we look at other weapon sets, short bow is a great weapon with amazing base damage and trick shot is really neat when you’re in a 2v1, but the range is 900 and most other classes with ranged attacks not only have better range on their attacks, but better damage as well, so short bow is out as a primary mode of damage dealing.

This leaves us with sword and dagger main hand, both of which are run! Dagger becomes a condition build if not used with stealth, which means we need to focus on what our other offhands offer, running a dagger means we’re playing with cloak and dagger shenanigans, stealthing, backstabbing etc… with a pistol offhand we’re focusing on permastealth and blind shenanigans (heartseeker at you through a blind field we force you to fight in, then get behind you and backstab you).

I’m not saying either of those play styles are bad in any way, they’re really effective if you can get past the skill gap to use them! But there is a skill gap to use them and other classes do find them “unfair”… I think a lot of this sentiment comes from the fact that it’s what MOST thieves run, but what I want you to take from this is that we run that because we lack viability in other builds.

Now lets get back to the sword mainhand, what does this bring to the fight that we wouldn’t want to just go permastealth, avoiding getting hit and delivering (someone in this topic earlier said 15k backstabs, for what it’s worth the most I’ve ever backstabbed for was 13k and that was against the aetherblade loot bag runners in a PURE glass 100% damage focused build with sigil of night, sigil of justice, crit damage food, and a potion of outlaw slaying) so for arguments sake lets say a more realistic 8-9k crits? (which are still exciting for me, they don’t happen often and are usually only against really glassy builds in WvW). This weapon set offers positioning, and either an evasive attack/daze that’s hard to land and kills our creed of “always be moving, never get hit” (pistol whip) with blinds, or boon stripping and stealth (offhand dagger) which also gets us another daze attack (from stealth, when we’re behind you, why we need to be so mobile).

These skills are great as well, the sword 2 allows us to pull out of fights when we’re knocked down, or generally out of commission (if we just sat there we would die very quickly, we’re in medium armor… please realize this, engineers don’t do melee combat, rangers generally stick to ranged weapons, and those that don’t are often complaining as well, I want you to keep this in mind, that said I can’t speak about rangers because I don’t play one, so consider anything I say about them anecdotal!).

Permablind is awesome, but doesn’t contribute much if we can’t keep our opponents in it, so lets get back to the stealth and boon stripping, the most frequently run sPvP build. Where is boon stripping good? Well, against bunker builds that load up boons!

In a fight of a very good thief versus a very good guardian, the guardian will win EVERY time. We can’t ignore their aegis and their blind throws off our stealth, and I’m ok with that, I’m ok with having a class that just “wins” against us, because we get a pass against mesmers. But being able to boon strip and then pull out is our “contribution” to our team against these bunker builds. I find that guardians are the most sympathetic (of people who have never played a thief) to thieves when it comes to us saying "our class really lacks build diversity in WvW/PvP because they know they usually get to take our lunch money (rangers of course being the least sympathetic because they also get hit with the nerf stick just as regularly, mesmers the most biased because they are our top target). So, there you have it, that’s why “EVERY THIEF ABUSES STEALTH AND STRIPS ALL OUR BOONS ARE ITS SO UNFAIR.” we do it because it’s what’s left of our class, and when you take away our ability to strip boons, we’ll resort to running d/d or d/p backstab builds, because that’s what will be left.

Part 1

Now, I run 6 different level 80’s. My first was Thief, and my main is Thief. Some people have seen to argue with my initial points about the recent patches killing build diversity and I’ve sat down and discussed this with a few individuals I know who do not primarily play a thief but HAVE played a thief, and I think this is where there’s a large break in the discussion of this thread.

First, I’d like to talk about why I have 6 level 80’s. As a person who wanted to “main” a thief I found that I wasn’t very effective at level 80, I don’t have enough range to stay at a “safe distance” for most group fights, I don’t bring much to a dungeon group outside of damage, and an “oh kitten button” when someone gets downed. On the PVE side of things, generally we’re a one of class in a group because if there isn’t already 2 warriors, it’s better to have a warrior than a thief (for DPS maxing etc…).

That said, we bring a lot of utility to the part through our stealth skills, allowing people to skip sections or better position to deal with sections of dungeons/fractals/what have you.

Learning the other classes showed me what I could bring to a party to act as a stopgap for what we were missing in our team comp, while I’m not trying to say that thieves aren’t a “good class” we severely lack build diversity in PvE environments right now (honestly I think most classes do at the moment). But Sword Dagger is one of my favorite weapon sets for certain fractals and many dungeons as the boon stripping allows me to contribute something to my party that only one other class can do “almost” as effectively. (mesmers)

That said, I’m going to move on to the PvP side of things, where all the other classes can start rolling their eyes at me.

I played my other 5 classes (warrior, guardian, elementalist, necro, and engineer) to get a feel for how they worked in a WvW/PvP scenario, to get an idea of what it’s like to play one to best learn the mechanics of shutting one down. I found that I was getting STOMPED in PvP and WvW on a regular basis and until I learned how to best position to deal with the meta builds I could not reach an effective level of gameplay. This took WORK on my part, in addition it took a significant amount of practice to learn how to chain cloak and daggers when I was put in an out of position fight, when I’m on my thief chaining cloak and daggers, getting in and out with evasive backstabs, that is my survival utility.

When I’m on my warrior, I can jump in with my sword, block incoming attacks, hundred blades, and keep on going, I run a regen build that several classes have a hard time even denting… I can survive in a 3v1 fight for an extended period of time by timing my dodges and blocks.

What I’d like you all to recognize is that as a thief, those blocks that I have on my warrior, are stealths and blinds for a thief. Not only that, but you CAN still hit us when we are stealthed, and it doesn’t take much thinking to know where a thief is when they are in stealth (they’re trying to get behind you).

Our style of “abusing the stealth mechanic” comes from a lack of viability of other builds, we will NEVER be as good at conditions as a ranger, engineer, mesmer, or necromancer. There’s literally 0 reason to run conditions on a thief because literally half the classes do it better…. That removes an entire “mechanic” of our class (venoms) they’re just “not that great”.

NoTrigger.8396:

Zepidel.5349:

Thief
Venomous Aura was complete garbage, as the radius was fairly tight, and venoms are not worth using at all. We’ve now increased that radius a bit, so that it’s easier to share worthless venoms with allies without huddling closely together!

We’re also looking at Destroying Flanking Strike, so that it now only removes 1 boon instead of 2, now thieves wont even have to worry about Sword/Dagger spec.

Also, pistol main hand may see one of its skills reworked into a worthless support ability (since support thieves are epic). We have middle school graduate brazilians paid in bananas working 25 hours a day to achieve maximum support while keeping pistol main hand totally useless for anything else.

FTFY

So you guys are going to barely buff 2 terrible wep kits/specs, so that instead of being garbage that no one uses, it will be garbage that maybe 1 guy in 1000 gets tricked into using.

Then you are going to nerf the only reason ever to go s/d (stopping bunkers from stacking 10000 buffs / stripping stuff like prot off in PvE on bosses)?

What you need to fix is the kittenty meta were it doesn’t matter what spec or gear you are in the content is so easy it doesn’t matter, which actually just favors full zerk gear since instead of a 1 hour dungeon run its a 20-30 minute run.

Sure you can put on your tank/support gear and pretend you are doing something special, but when its all said and done the only thing is accomplished is wasting peoples time.

they just have to release more difficult content

Legitimately difficult new content, like unique mechanics and such.

Zanthrax.6538:

again….revealed buff is 4 seconds…then you can go back into stealth again…thieves….its not even a big deal…

A thief heavily traited into shadow arts will die in 4 seconds without access to stealth…

Guardians get blocks and blinds, thieves get stealth and blinds…. Alternatively we get dodges, however that’s a separate trait line. We could trait into stealths and dodges, but then we lose our damaging trait lines. Rangers don’t get instagibbed by thieves regardless, they have a significant amount of condition damage and their LB channeling skill still hits thieves after stealth, in addition their mainhand sword attack makes it REALLY HARD to line up back stabs.

It just seems illogical to give rangers an anti-thief button.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Xovian.8572:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Ruggan.4102:

All this BS about stealth needing a counter… there are counters to stealth… you just need to actually learn to use them.

The problem with thieves and stealth is…well, I’ll let these quotes do the talking for me.

“You can’t hit what you can’t see.” ~Walter Johnson (In GW2 you can, its magic!)
“You cannot dodge what you cannot see!” ~Gen (Sure you can, ever used block and didnt see what caused it? Happens all the time in GW2)

But to add to this, we need some REAL hard counters to stealth, something to get it off somebody. I really hope Sic ‘Em is changed to a pet damage increase for all its attacks for a certain amount of time, with the Reveal being an AoE around the pet of 900 range. If we can start seeing at least one skill that does that on at least half of the classes, you won’t see as much complaining from players about the ‘invincible’ thief.

2 things about the stealth complaints:

1: STEALTH is NOT thief only. Quit begging for nerfs to a mechanic that 4 classes use, just because one has some more entertaining ways to “annoy” you with it. Honestly I disapprove of the change cause most games that use stealth breakers also have classes that can actually perma stealth, GW2 doesn’t. Yes I have a thief ( i troll/harass/taunt with her in WvW, she has never killed anything 1v1, she cant), but I main a mesmer, and im in ill need of more nerfs to my favorite, and most played class that is currently the least played, and least used in PvP environments.

2: Adding hard counters BEGS the question for the developers of just what other hard counters do we need, it’s gonna be a pretty long list and that’s GOING to turn into a kitten you wouldn’t believe. Tweaks, yes, “shaves” yes. Just adding out right changes (counters) to core mechanics is just a bad idea no matter how you look at it.

Let’s take the thiefs stealth, then we can take the warrior’s weapons, the mesmer’s clones, the necro’s death….. Then we can all have the same stick character wielding the same stick weapon to beat on each other with.

Nobody said anything about TAKING Stealth from thieves. Get your facts straight. They are introducing a COUNTER to Stealth, that is not REMOVING it.

If i counter Immobilize with condition removal, condition removal is a COUNTER to it, that does not make Immobilize USELESS.
If i counter Daze/Stun with Stunbreaker, Stunbreaker is a COUNTER to it, that does not make Daze/Stun USELESS.
If I counter Knockdown with Stability, Stability is a COUNTER to it, that does not make Knockdown USELESS.
If I counter Stability with boon removal, boon removal is a COUNTER to it, that does not make Stability USELESS.

Follow the trend. Want more?

These are all effects that you’re removing from yourself, you’re not actively interfering with what another player is doing with these “hard counters”… (you’re comparing apples to oranges)

Lithril Ashwalker.6230:

Asuka Shikinami.5462:

Small balence suggestions:

Stealth
- When someone exits stealth (not reveladed, just times out) add a 1 second revealed. This will make monitoring stealth more important and prevent Cloak And Dagger spam on pets (Mesmers/Rangers/Necro’s can dodge your CnD, but our pets can’t, it gives a huge advange to offhand dagger thieves).
- If someone makes an attack in stealth and it is blocked, it procs a 1s revaled. This makes managing stealth and positioning more valuable instead of just spamming backstab.

Many agreed on a post exactly like this before on a past update and that idea was shot down and made to what it is now in sPvP which is a 4 second revealed while PvE(and wvw) is unaffected. Stealth isnt the enemy, its the attack coming from stealth which breaks the stealth that hurts, just be on guard while a thief goes stealth, because its more than likely a very hard hit, so keep the Aegies up/blocks, it will deflect the majority of the damage and then you can withstand fights longer with a thief until he/she screws their moves up…Stare them in the eye, watch for patterns, use bluffing techniques, they are not AI, they are players, and humans(i hope) and eventually, their finger will get tired/someone will make a phone call to the person sitting behind that computer…just go with the flow.

We can still get hit while in stealth…. you can see where we enter stealth… It takes a SIGNIFICANT amount of practice to time repeated C&D to Perma-stealth (this is a major skill barrier). Continuing on the subject of skill barriers, It’s not particularly easy to triple heartseeker through gunpowder either without significant practice. I get that you guys don’t like stealth, but they’ve already nerfed us into the ground as a class so that there are only 2 “real” viable builds to play, both of which focus on near perma-stealth… Stop trying to take away our ONE advantage.

Zanthrax.6538:

liefbread.9513:

Hi, as a thief, it seems as if you’re literally removing the viability of one of our builds if you nerf flanking strike, it will lead to everyone running d/d or d/p… Doesn’t seem logical when trying to promote build variety.

If you honestly think s/d thieves and their flanking strike / larc strike combo doesnt need nerfing then your in denial. Its very strong even highly skilled thieves that play nothing but thief understand the purpose of nerfing it.

It is strong, in sPvP. It’s adequate in WvW and it’s “alright” in PVE.

sPvP should not dictate every skillset in the game.

Hi, as a thief, it seems as if you’re literally removing the viability of one of our builds if you nerf flanking strike, it will lead to everyone running d/d or d/p… Doesn’t seem logical when trying to promote build variety.