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The repetition is not to make anything more true. What you are witnessing is a PR event. The repetition exists because a meaningful response hasn’t been made. When this occurs, people feel they have not been heard, so they keep bringing up the issue as they believe that silence will equal acceptance, which it actually would. It’s pretty much a textbook business crisis. The steps to manage it are in the same book.
The repetition would stop if the issue were to be addressed accordingly. But since it has not, the repetition continues. That’s just common sense.
When there is an exchange of a product for money, there is a responsibility based on ethics and morals, to address those concerns by the buyer regarding any purchase of product for which that consumer spent their hard earned dollars. Irrespective of any other alternative, the one alternative you do not cling to is one of “I got your money, now go away.” And If you adopt that alternative, then expect some push-back.
See where I am going with that?
How do you believe that repetition by players will make something easier to address by the representatives of ANet? What answers do you think they will be able to provide purely as a result of community pressure? At this point, if many players on the forums are to be believed, irreparable damage has been done. Customers have already left. And ANet is left with the nebulous task of addressing concerns that are largely subjective, based on fears that history will repeat itself or risking their reputation as developers even further by backing out on several implementations which, to investors, will likely have repercussions. This is not an easy fix. Replies may help the situation, it’s true, but the right sort of replies won’t come easily.
And while businesses naturally have expectations placed upon their products by those who purchase them, an MMO is both a product and a service. We bought the product as-is and received something that the majority of which we can play for as long as we like for as long as the servers remain online. The service, however, is completely undefined. None of us know what changes will be made to an MMO post-release, and we all acknowledge that risk when we buy the game, regardless of any ‘promises’ made. That some of us didn’t like the changes is unfortunate, but hardly surprising. In those circumstances, a person is well within their rights to explain their issues and request they be addressed. I’m not denying that at all, in mind of what I’ve said. But both sides have said their pieces – you’ve submitted your customer evaluations. I suggest we be patient to see whether or not we’ve won the vacation.
And while you both explain the reasoning behind your persistence, you don’t seem to acknowledge the feeling by other players, with concerns no less valid than your own, that your actions are making the forums hostile. Maybe they should have a thicker skin? Maybe they should just deal with it? Maybe they should take a break, or just not visit the forums? Are they crazy for taking this so seriously? The same questions can be applied to any of us with any grievances with the current state of things. We’re all a little crazy.
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I suppose you will be as equally considerate of my wishes when I selfishly ask you to let those who share an opposing point of view than yours to have their voices heard without censorship. Not so much because of any game’s or forum concern, but because I believe that people have the right to voice their opinion when they feel they have been wronged so long as they do so in a respectful manner.
By and large, all of these post are meeting that standard of courtesy and professionalism. You should find comfort in the fact that those that are not are being met with deletions and infractions galore. If not for the heavy-handed moderation on these boards that you are evidently imploring, these forums would be a lot messier than now and you would be even more depressed that you appear to be now.
There’s a valuable difference between (self-)censorship and moderation. (Self-)censorship is the result of fear of reprisal from authorities and peers. Moderation is an avoidance of extremes. Granted that ‘extreme’ is rather subjective, I would rather people voice their opinions for or against the recent changes in a manner that was more constrained for the sake of those players who don’t want to get involved in the more heated discussions despite having input. If anything, it’s those players who are likely censoring themselves because of the general atmosphere that’s being created and a concern that their thoughts would result in derision and judgement from those with whom they’re supposed to be enjoying a game. Those who shout the loudest aren’t always the most correct, and they often drown out those with perfectly valid viewpoints themselves.
Many of us have said our pieces for or against the recent changes. Repetition does not make something more true.
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This is super rad :]
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Will acquiring this new gear help me overcome my crushing inferiority complex and deep-seated need for acceptance?
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I want ice cream.
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See, that is the problem. The gear grind and easily achievable top gear are mutually exclusive ideas. Either top gear is hard to achieve, or it isn’t. Each option has their own supporters. I am perfectly willing to have it be accessible from both hard and easy sources, but apparently there are people that think the new eq is only worth something if i can’t ever get it.
And i tried to offer ideas. I don’t see any response (and it’s not because there were not read – this one topic seems to be intentionally avoided) – the posts that say that the problem doesn’t exist do not count, i’m afraid. There just comes a point beyond which i just want the other side to start responding instead of ignoring the matter.
With all due respect, the response to this has been explosive, and although I have no doubt your input could have provided some value to discussions, I also doubt that it was noticed through the hundreds of posts repeating the same concerns. Repetition has resulted in the entire topic becoming white noise and while we may end up in a situation where ANet is able to salvage some of the player input and actually implement it, it’s still a difficult situation to navigate and I feel that’s the case partially because many players have made it that way through their outcry. It might have been avoidable, but here we are regardless.
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We all post constructive feedback. Our feedback is take it out. It is not our fault our feedback differs from yours.
That isn’t constructive feedback. Constructive feedback is made with respect to the pressures faced by the opposing party in an attempt to meet a mutually-beneficial middle ground which is achievable. What you’re demanding is that a facet of the game be taken out that you think will result in a poorer product – something that may or may not be achievable.
As I’ve said elsewhere, I get that it’s frustrating, but demanding that something you don’t like be removed from a product you’ve purchased isn’t something that’s easily fixed. It’s not like tossing a leaf of lettuce aside from a sandwich you’ve bought – it risks people’s jobs – people who may not even be responsible for the changes you dislike so much. At this point, backpedalling away from a decision can make the party look weak and indecisive, which is not something that bosses, investors and many customers appreciate. Accepting that a decision might not have been the best but trying to work that decision into a more acceptable framework is generally more realistic, but even then I’d expect that ANet is beholden to significantly more imposing pressures than this forum alone.
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I’ve never truly played an MMO before aside from MUDs – that much should be obvious form my other posts. GW1 was something I spent time on, but I never really engaged with it and much of it was spent playing solo. I believe I quit when I realised how much time I was spending trying to get a different coloured shirt for my character. It just wasn’t my thing, and I picked it up a good few years after release, so I felt a little out of synch.
GW2 has been excellent fun for me so far, though I admit that the experiences I’ve enjoyed might not be unique or interesting to any of the MMO veterans here. Dying to an Event boss, sprinting for five minutes back to the spot from the nearest Waypoint and seeing the same stranger that fought alongside me still wailing away at this thing and just hanging in there made me realize that online gaming didn’t have to be what I thought it was. Independently, without communication, we both decided that we were going to hang in there and beat this thing. That was pretty neat, albeit probably romanticized on my part.
I agree that ANet could easily improve its customer relations, but this is a tricky time to attempt being a little more personal. Hopefully when the ice has thawed, we can enjoy a little more open and measured communication on both sides. In the meantime, I would hope that people could understand that supporting your ideals does not always involve walking away from or attacking those who are disrupting said ideals – sometimes it’s about just helping someone understand that you would prefer they did things in a certain way and acknowledging it when they do.
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Well, let me provide another perspective: perhaps you should be upset right along with us, even if you are still enjoying the game, and even if you prefer the new item progression direction of GW2. Holding people and companies accountable for their good faith representations should be something we all stand up for, regardless of whether or not we personally happen to enjoy their product or the particular features that come and go.
It’s difficult to be upset on the behalf on someone else, particularly as it risks misrepresenting their reasoning or appropriating their concerns. I said I sympathize because I do – I’m sure this is all very uncomfortable, particularly the feeling that you’ve been lied to. However, I’m of the mind that I would rather focus any upset I feel over actions towards things I’m personally passionate about. If you’re passionate about GW2, that’s great, and ensuring accountability for companies marketing their products based on lies is also great. But if we expect anyone to feel accountable for their actions, we should do the same – and those denying the idea that their method of expression is spoiling someone else’s fun aren’t really supporting that ideal. We should all be open to criticism.
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I love Asura, and the animations are easily a big part of that. Their almost-tumble when they come to a sudden stop, their flailing limbs when they jump off of high spots – the animation people did a bang-up job at instilling personality without needing to rely on anything other than body language.
I love the somewhat-paranoid darting looks my Engineer does as his idle.
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The OP is what is wrong with society of today. He let’s others opinions and what others tell him dicate what he thinks feel. I myself have my own mind and opinion and reading something does not dicate it. He and others like him are why Firefly was canceled too.:p
You might not be dictated by others opinions, by marketing or similar means of directing your habits towards certain areas, but I sincerely doubt that you are not influenced by them. Buying a product is a financial risk based on marketing that may lie, experiences that may no longer be true, memory that could be inaccurate and hope that may be misplaced. Anything you choose to purchase is done for a reason. That you bought GW2 based on any of these things suggests that at some point you were convinced that this was a good idea, and even choosing to play the beta without handing out any money suggests that you felt it would be a worthwhile investment of your time.
The OP isn’t the problem with society today. (One) problem is people thinking that their opinions and experiences should overwhelm those of others and that those whose opinions differ are, as a result, less valuable to discussion when in fact discussion and debate relies on them to be constructive and not pointless echo chambers.
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The problem is that many of us have no place to go. This was it – the reason we came out of MMOG retirement, the reason we updated our computers or bought new ones, the reason we bought a new gaming mouse and headhphones, the reason we put $100’s of dollars each into the gem store even though we didn’t really need it; this was our AAA shining city on the hill that would actually have a permanent cap on stat progression at a point that was realistically attainable even by casual players. We sold our homes (figuratively speaking), packed our stuff and moved into Shangri-La.
10 weeks later, we are thrown out of paradise. Unfortunately for you, the time we would have been spending playing other games is now being used to vent our frustrations and attempt to change things back, because now those other games are just not worth playing any more.
I legitimately feel sorry for these people. I sympathize. I enjoyed GW1 for a while and then realised I was chasing after something I didn’t honestly care about, so I stopped playing. I’ve never played a MMO between then and GW2. If anyone invested hundreds of dollars based on what was essentially sales spiel and good intentions, that’s a terrible position to be in and I hope that perhaps they make their investment opportunities with a little more consideration in the future. I honestly wish you didn’t feel so disappointed.
An issue I have with this is not that people are expressing their disappointment, but the feeling that they are choosing to do so in a way that could be considered to involve souring the community by their actions – actions that they may feel are warranted. Those who are strongly against recent changes have exhibited dismissive and occasionally mocking attitudes towards those who don’t share their opinions when they should – by all rights – be taking a higher moral ground. The forums aren’t just for feedback – they should be about building and maintaining a positive community as well, not simply to be used as a podium for people to voice their upset. I’m fine with that upset in itself, I just question the use of moderation and sensitivity towards those who would rather not see dozens of repetitions every day of the same topics by the same posters.
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No, I don’t really think we’re going down the same path. At least I am hoping it’s not, to be honest. I liked that because, well, this sort of reaction about “The Vision” came to mind when people started with “The Manifesto is all-important”, which is strangely close to “design is law”.
This am good article: http://www.edge-online.com/features/design-law/
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Generally speaking I prefer to play solo just because I like to take things at my own pace and look at the scenery (and try to climb it). I tend to feel a little pressured in a party when nothing explicit is going on, mindful that watching me trying to Jump Shot up a mountain isn’t the best use of our time. I haven’t sought out party-related stuff just yet, like dungeons and all, but I’m not ruling it out for the future. I’m always happy to help out/interfere with an Event or something, too.
I’m not hardcore enough for most, but so far I’ve managed to solo everything I’ve tried without too much frustration and I can still see the value in teaming up. I’d actually be more inclined to join a dungeon party or whatever if I knew that messing up or failing to meet people’s standards wouldn’t scupper the whole thing and waste everyone’s time. I’d rather just avoid that stress and bounce around maps.
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I’m the type that doesn’t like to be arbitrarily categorized by others.
Places you into Category: Y
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You have a point which I don’t disagree on the part of overreacting to the possible power creep issue.
However, you also have to understand that MMO unlike other genres of game requires persistent commitments of hundreds/thousands of hours and money from players. It is as much a commitments of emotion and loyalty to a game which they bring themselves to login to play everyday. MMO is like no other games and it is itself a long-term investment in a certain sense.
In many ways, I see this as a dangerous position to take. People are becoming emotionally involved in a game – a product, made by people to make money, regardless of the underlying artistic worth. I suppose if anything, it’s indicative of just how much people cared for GW1 and the sort of experience they expected from its sequel, but the idea that a product changes over time based on a wide variety of factors and often in response to market demand shouldn’t be a foreign one. I can’t quite tell whether I’m more or less jaded than those who are legitimately upset by all this.
When a player commits to such a long-term investment, it is only reasonable that they need the confidence of continuity in game direction and manifesto and no nasty surprises sprung on them along the way. Just like all other investment, they need to establish the trust before they commit more resources into the investment.
I’d be more sensitive to the concerns of players upset over a loss of investment if their enjoyment of the game turned out to be disproportionate to the amount they had invested. But as some have said elsewhere, the experience that GW2 is now (or that some are concerned it will become) shouldn’t devalue the experiences that you’ve had unless you expected those experiences to continue without limit. If I found myself unable to play GW2 because of a subscription fee (which I choose not to pay), I won’t lose sight of the fun I had with the game up until then – it won’t cheapen my investment.
When the first sign of change seems to suggest a betrayal of the original manifesto intent, it is understandable for player to seek clarification, to the point of seemingly overreacting. What they want is clarification from the designer / decision maker. If the clarification is forecoming and immediate, it would have addressed the issue. Player will not complain further and will not be seen to be overreacting. Player will either choose to leave (cut short their investment loss in this game and move on to the next game which fit their desire) or stay to play. Period.
I’ve mentioned in another thread that the concept of a product completely adhering to its original design document throughout manufacture and distribution is a lofty goal, and one that isn’t always met. GW2’s design was lengthy and I would wager quite costly over the 5 years it apparently took. The manifesto should never have been made into marketing material – it should have been kept in-house – because the cuts and changes that the developers have had to make are doubtless rather painful. But that sacrifice was made to get the game to market and, I’d expect, in the hopes that people might actually enjoy it as well as providing them all with the revenue they needed to continue to make games. It’s easier to blame ANet for this perceived betrayal – it’s harder for us to encourage them to do better in the future and accept that ideals don’t always match reality.
But is there an OFFICIAL CLARIFICATION on this issue thus far? I afraid not. But no worry, the complaints will die down sooner than later (which I believe its the delay tactics Anet is using to tide them over this ‘crisis’) because those who complains but still cannot find closure to the issue would have left the game. I believe many of these players are having a fun time playing PlanetSide 2 now. Its a sad day for GW2.
And more power to those players. I’d expect this situation is far more complex and perhaps more personal than many would like to acknowledge, which could well be why a simple answer hasn’t been forthcoming. Feedback so far has felt a little impersonal, but that doesn’t mean that the folks in charge of giving said feedback have an easy way to explain the situation, nor to calm those who are so incensed by all this.
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My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?
The term “slippery slope” comes to mind. Many players here have years of MMO playing experience and they can smell rats from a distance. And they are sounding a warning.
‘Slippery slope’ is a really bad argument to make against something, because it only works based on presumptions – that one thing will turn into another thing and that into a third thing, which is more terrible than both the things that precede it. But, unless we’re talking about good, solid numbers – numbers that aren’t inherently biased by perception, audience, representation, etc – all you’re really doing is saying that it happened somewhere else, perhaps more than once, and that you’re really, really certain it’s going to happen again. All that we can honestly, truly say is that it is a thing that might happen, based on some evidence that may be relevant or not, but that it also might not happen. If you honestly know if something’s going to happen, I suggest you get involved in stocks.
I’m not doubting people’s experience or opinions, just how accurately the past can predict the future in alternative, superficially-similar circumstances. And honestly, in terms of this forum if nowhere else, I’d consider all the doom-saying to be a considerably larger detriment to the enjoyment of players than the potential for something to go wrong or not. It’s a downer, man. Harshing my buzz.
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Stats in WvW do not = Skill, strategy and coordination
The competitive servers in WvW are not so because they are better equipped, but because the communicate, actually play well, and have multiple guilds who coordinate assaults with each other.
I completely agree with you, but a higher number is a higher number. That doesn’t make it relevant nor significant in the grand scheme of things. My characters have died more times to fluffed dodge attempts than any number of times I could ever blame substandard equipment.
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I think you should do whatever makes you happiest doing. You might be statistically weaker in WvW without Ascended gear, but at least you run the chance of being more content.
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I ignored a dripping faucet once and came home to a flooded basement, true story!
If your basement was damp-proof, congratulations – indoor swimming pool!
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Maybe if I manage to get some Ascended gear, someone will love me.
But then, maybe no-one loves me because Ascended gear exists and I don’t have it?
Love is hard, guys.
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Kudos.
One day I will make a Legendary weapon to either salvage or throw away. I might record it.
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No - All RPGs that I can think of involve some form of grind. It’s inherent to the genre – the duality between managing your enjoyment of the game itself (it’s setting, story, mechanics, etc) and the enjoyment you gain from reaching personal goals of a statistical/objective nature. There are many points at which these two things coincide as well. Making an RPG without grind sounds pretty difficult given how we currently imagine RPGs;
Yes - As far as I’m aware, Legendary weapons remain the toughest to earn, but are relatively comparable to weapons of the highest tier. You won’t automatically become ‘the best’ by having a Legendary, because any statistical difference can be mitigated by player skill. And any quality difference can be mitigated by not caring enough about getting a Legendary;
Yes - I don’t feel compelled to play GW2. It doesn’t feel like a job to me, much less a job I pay to do.
I’m also aware that the manifesto was published over two years ago and that while the words said at the time may well have been genuine and well-intentioned, a lot can change in two years and not all of it is malicious or intended to deceive. A five-year development time can be a massive drain on resources and warrant significant changes in order to keep the project going. Some of those may be sacrifices that the Developers never would have chosen, but were forced to in order to deliver the product they were so passionate about. It’s incredibly rare for any endeavour to meet all of the goals that originally made it so worthwhile to pursue and, often, made it so difficult to achieve. And in a situation like that, proportioning blame on any single party involved seems a little desperate.
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None of the above.
I don’t have a lot of time to play and I prefer PvE, but I don’t feel that I’m either ‘left behind’, nor that I’ll ‘probably quit’, because these make it sound as though it’s something I’ll do as a result of the recent changes. They’re not – I’ll quit when I’m satisfied with my progression or I simply don’t have enough time to play, and that includes limiting time on the other games I enjoy. I’m satisfied with a couple of hours play every other night, with the progress I’m making and the investment of my money in something I find entertaining. I might play FotM, I might not. I might put effort into obtaining Ascended gear (or even Exotics), I might not. I don’t particularly feel pressured to do anything, because I don’t feel pressured to stick to someone else’s standards of how I should be playing, or how they choose to play themselves.
The choices available for WvW sound negative to me regardless of how much time someone has to spend on the game. And the comments for the ‘A Lot of Time to Play’ column make the player sound ignorant of other people’s concerns if they choose them; ‘I don’t understand why everyone is complaining’. In my case, I understand, but I don’t foresee their concerns impacting on my own enjoyment. I don’t feel forced to climb onto any ‘gear treadmill’ to enjoy the game, and if I do take part, it’s of my own volition – I won’t feel ‘forced to’, I’ll do it as a challenge.
I get what you’re trying to do here, but you can’t really boil people’s opinions down to one of nine available choices, particularly worded as they are.
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