Guild Wars 2

Hmmm….I’m seeing something has changed from the posts of last week from TC….the server that “never quits”, and doesnt complain on the forums…….I guess you need to add a qualifier to those statements….

“TC…the server that never gives up, or complains………when winning!”…lol.

I’m just poking fun. You are the same as every other server. Game mechanics do need some tweaks even if to just artificially keep scores closer to encourage the masses to continue to queue.

Usagi.4835:

I think we’ve already established that numbers are the determinant factor in Wuvwuv atm.

This is true. I wouldn’t be surprised if for all matchups on all tiers, POPULATION has the highest correlation to server score. As I’ve stated a few times, all servers have good players and not so good players…..and with 7day/24hour matches over 4 different maps…population imbalances pretty much trump everything from a macro score perspective.

@comments on players “skill”, again all servers have good and bad…..but hypothesis to perhaps suggest there is some elements of truth in some perceptions – atm for FA and DB – virtually no fairweather players are queueing – its only people who enjoy challenging PvP for the most part…..for TC: as has been stated by numerous players from TC in this thread, you’ve got the new players checking it out (map completion), you’ve got the fairweather players as your winning handedly, you’ve got the bored players as there is nothing to do on a map virtually devoid of opposition on some of the BL, and you’ve apparently got some of your WvW focussed guilds sitting out…..so is it any surprise that perceptions of AVERAGE player “skill” may be skewed……just a thought. Personally I’ve seen good and poor play by all servers…..its a game who cares /shrug

@Usagi – I agree with some of your points. Mainly that numbers win, with coverage mismatches outside prime-time being doubly/triply profitable. – Not sure this ideal mechanic longer term for the game that will encourage large player participation over a week long match, let alone the 2 week matches they want to go to.

The fact that numbers/coverage virtually trump anything makes the free xfers and transient state of server populations even more problematic. IMO they should have kept matches to 3 days until they closed/curbed free xfers.

Looking at the current matchups it seems the only “competitive” matches that are occurring are in the very top (all servers have large pop with good coverage), and the very bottom (all servers have equally low pops and poor coverage). Now this can all change with the next big guild/alliance shake up that ripples through the ladder.

The current snowball mechanics also exasperate the problem, by having stable/growing participation for the “winning” server and reduced participation for the losing server. As you stated no server has a monopoly on anything…..including “bandwagon” players that boost/reduce pops based on score/map control.

Fun can be had regardless (<—-on FA off-peak daily, often with outmanned buff), but I think some tweaks need to occur to encourage more participation and options for comebacks/out-manned situations. More players participating——> more stable populations——> functioning ladder/matching —-→less snowball——>more competitive matches (macro score)——>more fun!

I think some of the L2P posters above, are missing the OP’s point or maybe need to L2Read

Yes there a viable specs for Ele (mostly around survival). His comment is that unlike some other classes if you choose to build full glass cannon – our cannon:glass ratio is sub par relative to other classes (ie more glass and less cannon). I have fun being more tanky myself – but I’m all for more viable builds/specs as choice is good.

Firstly: It’s “war”, its round the clock and it is not intended to be “fair”.

That being said “night capping” is really just a population imbalance, and despite all the chest thumping and kitten – WvW essentially boils down to a numbers game…who has the biggest population for the longest period of time wins 9+/10 times. Sure small groups can be fun and effective, but frankly with the scale of 4 maps, 24hour/7 day matches they aren’t going to move the macro server score needle much imo. The psychology of the mmo gamer is that they like to “win” (forum code word is they want “competition”) and people act in self interest to achieve this desired goal (pile on when winning, xfer/play less when losing). The server scores are a measure of “winning” and impact player participation, compounding the above issues (winners get stable/more participation and losers get less), often creating snowball effects and score blowouts. Note: Of course their are die hards that play regardless – on every server, but as I stated above its a numbers game.

Areas to improve/tweak:

Gameplay:
-Some greater zerg busting options (orb/outmanned buff revamp etc, downed state?, aoe limits?)
-Global communication tools across/server/maps – fill one/two maps versus thin across all of them. Access to map status from PvE world.

Scoring Revamp:
Scale scoring to reflect opposition on map (holding assets when 1:1:1 should be worth more then holding assets when it is 5:1:0.5 This would limit the damage done during periods of population mismatches (from a macro score perspective), limiting snowball blowouts….thus hopefully encouraging more participation (more people = more fun!)

Just wanted to point out that all servers have players that play regardless of score. FA and TC both had players out last week…and FA and DB have folks out this week.

Dispite your “we never give up attitude” though TC, I would point out that I guess lots of folks are back from vacation as for some reason (I can’t imagine why?) your off peak numbers are substantially larger this week than they were last week….interesting. I’m seeing the same FA names at night this week I saw last week…..its just not a terribly large number of them. As I said before no server has a monopoly on “fairweather” players – numbers go up when leading and down when losing for ALL servers. The volume of players during “primetime” hides most of the delta.

Tier 1 has decent comp as all servers have healthy populations (re:queues) for extended periods of time, with little periods of non population overlaps. ….that is until another large guild/alliance gets fed up with queues, xfers…creates another BG and the tiers are thrown into chaos yet again.

@Phantom – I hear you on numbers, but the issue is that in 7 day 24 hour matches across 4 maps (and getting longer – 2weeks), player population/participation is a major (biggest?) driver. Smart play by 10 players, on one map, during one portion of a the day/night, is not going to impact the macro score dramtically. Every server has “fairweather” players, and is impacted by transfers extra – I don’t think anyone has a monopoly on that. Servers falling behind in scores get less and less particiaption and those winning get more and more which creates even a larger discrepency in numbers on the maps. The score is superficial, but as we have all seen in this, and past matches it does impact participation (up and down) and impacts numbers “balance” in a match. It is less impactful during primetime as servers come close to pop caps…but outside primetime, when caps aren’t even close to being achieved it is felt more acutely. See you on the field.

Yes despite what everyone says, the score does impact participation…both ways….never seen so many TC folks online at night :P Raw numbers + mass siege/golems = win.

Seems some thinking around dealing with overwhelming numbers needs to be thought about from a design perspective. AOE target limits – lessons zerg busting choke points, the downed state is a challenge in outnumbered situations as well. Outside a thief, standing still long enough to stomp an opponent when outmaned is often a death sentence, combined with it being very easy for the larger force to rez any of their players that happens to fall. Smaller groups can run around and ninja some targets – but atm, crossed swords is like the dinner bell, so nothing stays flipped long enough to bring any meaningful points.

Also, as the scoring does impact participation (and fun for some) I think they should add some scaling to the pt accumaltion that accounts for opposition numbers…run the map with little opposition (ie off peak zerg) you earn less pts/ticks…this would help limit runaway scores and better reflect risk/reward/strategic play

FA – late night seems we are fairly outgunned atm…need some more leadership/guilds to step up, should prolly pick 1-2 maps to try and field some semblence of numbers on and just abondon the others (or split them with DB – they load map A, we load map B, and overflow from both goes to C etc ) We often seem thinly spread across many.

<—on FA…play just off peak times (west coast)….last night (and every night for weeks now) haven’t ever experienced a queue on any map (usually logging on 9:30 PST onwards)…..we had the outmanned buff prolly around 11:30ish onward (PST) on several maps.

Macro server points are heavily driven by populations….don’t think FA has the coverage numbers to compete with any servers with strong off-peak populations (from point/score perspective). Hopefully FA and DB are both focusing on TC instead of each other or this match will begin to pull away for TC. Still fun fights while I’ve been on regardless.

I’ve enjoyed my time in WvW (on losing server FA). There are issues (culling, xfers, some balance stuff, orbs etc)…but those will likely be addressed in time. Frankly the biggest issue is prolly the playerbase…..people are too focused on server scores and easy victories, and instant gratification…“OMG! we’re down 15k 1 day in, give up and xfer”….though I suppose that is to be expected in an MMO these days.

IMO Anet needs to….

1) Communicate with the WvW community – acknowledge some issues and lay out some timelines/direction.

2) Curb xfers – getting a functional ranking system and more “even” population matchups (and thus scores) I think will alleviate a lot of the angst in the playerbase

3) Fix/improve rendering issues

4) Everything else….

Is this fun?

Its all relative. Sure many people (myself included) roll out regardless of the score and find “fun”. But WvW is about numbers, and frankly the health of any MMO longer term is about numbers as well. This translates to joe average gamer’s experience. And if my experience (FA) is representative of many (most?) servers I am seeing participation levels go down – which is prolly the best measure of Joe averages “fun”. I don’t spend enough time PvEing to know if the game pop overall is dropping by a large amount or its just restricted to WvW participation, or is just the WvW pop is just consolidating on certain servers at the expense of the other servers. /shrug – prolly all of the above.

I do agree that the score has an impact on player participation and perceptions. Tons of posts, lots of chat about it in game channels….and the reality is that even the “hardcore” guilds that move servers seeking “competition”, or “more active participation” or “24hour coverage” are in reality a nod to looking for a server that can get a higher score. This is even true moving to a mid/low pop server with a large guild/alliance as that is currently prolly the easiest way to ensure several weeks of dominance as currently none of those servers field anywhere close to full maps, so if one of the servers in that bracket now has 2x the numbers on the field…it quickly results in a runaway score…….sure those servers will rise and fight stiffer competition…but then; queues will go up (bandwagoners, etc)….alliances/guilds will break-up/move again and the cycle will repeat…../yawn.

The question is…is that healthy for the game overall? We all benefit the most from large participation on all servers longer term. I do like the concept of the scoring (promotes competition and server unity), and it is a method to balance matches via the ladder – the problem atm though seems to be that the populations are too transient (ie currently ladder is almost meaningless). Hopefully populations become more stable over time and we get closer matches across all tiers. In today’s – I want everything now, and make it dead easy mmo world though, I’m not sure it will without some coaxing by Anet (ie make xfers more difficult)

^Unfortunately they do have a feature for those that want/need “no challenge” in wvw…….free xfers :/ lol.

<—on FA and out virtually every night this week. World score doesn’t bother me, as long as I can find good fights and fun. Tip of the hat to some PRO folks who lead a small group of us around a BL late last night.

@Lonely – I agree.

@kidbs – the matches are decided within 24hours atm, because server dynamics are changing so much and “like” servers aren’t being paired (or more correctly post xfers are no longer “like”). Personally I would love a close match that lasted a week or longer – that would encourage additional levels of strategy etc, beyond zergvdoor clockwise or counterclockwise today? – and more defence, upgrades etc.

Interesting that virtually every match is already nearly over (assuming static pops), from a score perspective. While I understand the rational of free xfers, as long as they are available “server” score or the ladder system is kinda pointless – as is clearly evident in this weeks scores. With large portions of the population moving around, a servers past performance has little to do with its current or future performance. We’ll see if this settles in time, but I would imagine that there will always be guilds/alliances breaking up/moving for whatever the reason…..we see new groups forming in mid tier saying they want to get to the top tier, and top tier imploding because they didn’t like it up there – not sure why that would ever change unless there is a cost to moving. Until then I could see the merits in shorter matches.

The issue is magnified atm, due to seemingly low WvW participation -especially in mid/low tier servers. Its been my experience that outside weekend primetime that I rarely encounter a queue anymore on the majority/all maps. As a numbers game, an influx of a large number of WvW participants to these worlds can have a dramatic impact to the servers performance, unbalancing current match-ups fairly easily.