Guild Wars 2

At least the player with the account Mammoth.1975 thinks so:

Mammoth.1975:

[…] peak power damage > peak condition damage, do you want to compare averages now? Because average power damage is also > average condition damage.

I’m actually very sure of the opposite and we had a very detailed discussion in another thread in which also the op addressed how to deal with the said problem (so read if further more interested):
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Condition-analysis-and-a-few-options/first#post3056516

But since I’m not without fail I just wanted to ask the rest of the community which didn’t bother to read the whole thread of their opinion. What do you think? What are your experiences? Does power dmg really more dmg than cond dmg under the premise that the conds are NOT CLEANSED???

Mammoth.1975:

tarcheg.4872:

1. you showed us that power can hit hard when using certain buffs. When you would read my post where I calculated the engi attack I said you could use the f skill from flamethrower which would add another 4k which would lead into almost 10k dmg outshining your “once in a blue moon example” by far.

2. You can try…^^

4s of burning is 4k damage and 5.5 + 4 = 10. I think I understand why you think condis hit harder.

Actually I was at 5750 dmg which would be increased by 4s burning (680/s) = 8470dmg with one buff. And I said almost 10k – and you can add sun spirit, guardian f1 etc if you really wanna go there….

1. you showed us that power can hit hard when using certain buffs. When you would read my post where I calculated the engi attack I said you could use the f skill from flamethrower which would add another 4k which would lead into almost 10k dmg outshining your “once in a blue moon example” by far.
But I didn’t want to use any buffs – just the potential dmg you can do by pressing one key without any “pre-work”.

2. You can try…^^

Mammoth.1975:

tarcheg.4872:

If you could acutally understand what you are trying to read you would have noticed that 80%+ of the dmg I showed you is coming from the burning proc. So there is no need to proc sharpshooter and earth sigil to outperform every power dmg coming from an aa. I just added it to show you what’s possible but as I already said – the topic seems to be a little too hard for you.^^

Ok, so now you want to talk about more realistic situations. Makes sense I guess

That’s why I broke it down and calculated every proc on its own so people can see that not every proc is needed to make cond dmg as strong as it currently is.
Which is what the op tried us to explain from the beginning.

Mammoth.1975:

tarcheg.4872:

Mammoth.1975:

tarcheg.4872:

Mammoth.1975:

Sure. 4515+sharpened edges. Sigil of air would be another 1350+. No need for 25 vuln stacks.

Yeah that show a lot. Nothing at all to be honest.
What are your buffs? What are the debuffs on the target? You can power up every attack to do 300% it’s normal dmg when creating a certain environment for it.
But that’s not the point of this thread.

It’s not? BTW, when I say 1 in 100, I’m being kind and giving you 100% crit chance. Your example was actually worse than that.

Buffs and debuffs = 10 stacks of vuln from opening strike.

Why was my example worse? Because I used an attack which crits while using a rabid amulet? Alone the crit and burning proc (which is 100% on crit fyi) is enough to do ~5k dmg… But maybe you can somehow attack 100 times in 10s, which is the icd of the burning trait – then yes it would be an 1 out of 100 example. If not you can reproduce that dmg every 10s with an auto attack.

Because you can proc burning every 10s with 100% crit chance, or once every 20 attacks, but to get sigil of earth and sharpshooter to proc on the same attack it will take you nearly a minute on average.

If you could acutally understand what you are trying to read you would have noticed that 80%+ of the dmg I showed you is coming from the burning proc. So there is no need to proc sharpshooter and earth sigil to outperform every power dmg coming from an aa. I just added it to show you what’s possible but as I already said – the topic seems to be a little too hard for you.^^

Mammoth.1975:

tarcheg.4872:

Mammoth.1975:

Sure. 4515+sharpened edges. Sigil of air would be another 1350+. No need for 25 vuln stacks.

Yeah that show a lot. Nothing at all to be honest.
What are your buffs? What are the debuffs on the target? You can power up every attack to do 300% it’s normal dmg when creating a certain environment for it.
But that’s not the point of this thread.

It’s not? BTW, when I say 1 in 100, I’m being kind and giving you 100% crit chance. Your example was actually worse than that.

Buffs and debuffs = 10 stacks of vuln from opening strike.

Why was my example worse? Because I used an attack which crits while using a rabid amulet? Alone the crit and burning proc (which is 100% on crit fyi) is enough to do ~5k dmg… But maybe you can somehow attack 100 times in 10s, which is the icd of the burning trait – then yes it would be an 1 out of 100 example. If not you can reproduce that dmg every 10s with an auto attack.

And just for fun: http://www.imagebanana.com/view/pkqsw87r/PinDown.png
<— that’s what the op meant when talking about potential dmg and not whatever you are making up.
Sorry dude but I guess the thread is a little too complex for you.

Mammoth.1975:

Sure. 4515+sharpened edges. Sigil of air would be another 1350+. No need for 25 vuln stacks.

Yeah that show a lot. Nothing at all to be honest. You probably had singet of the hunt active, a frost spirit behind you etc.

I showed how much dmg WILL DO with a ranger longbow #1 with a full power build and backed it up with actual numbers so everyone can test it for themselves if interested.
You are just showing one line of you combat log. I mean, what are your buffs? What are the debuffs on the target? You can power up every attack to do 300% it’s normal dmg when creating a certain environment for it.
But that’s not the point of this thread.

Mammoth.1975:

Haha you are talking about crit peaks. Rangers can hit nearly 6k with longbow 1. The heavy golem obviously favours condition damage, because it has high armour but no cleanses, nonetheless, a 30 second test on it produced a 4600 damage crit, already higher than your scepter example. Power just does more damage per attack, both on average and with once every 30 attack situations like you’re proposing. That’s the way the game is.

That’s such made up nonsense – unbelievable. Please show us a 4.6k crit with ranger aa on longbow on the heavy golem. I just logged on my ranger and gave him full power build with the more dmg on longbow trait (eagle eye) using scholar runes (at max health) and force sigil and I’m shooting from max distance. Even with flanking my max hit was 2.5k. I could use peak strenght as well for another 10% and maybe you had a frost spirit up but please… don’t come here telling everyone you are dong 4.6k crits when it’s clearly made up…
Such a troll.

full power build means: 3384 power, 58% crit dmg + everything above listed.

And do not tell me you are calculating with 25 vuln stacks or signet of the hunt – that would be a whole combo (from several players) which has nothing to do with our comparison of one single attack power vs cond.

Mammoth.1975:

Power just does more damage per attack, both on average and with once every 30 attack situations like you’re proposing. That’s the way the game is.

Let’s just assume you are correct, then why on earth are we seeing so many cond build in the current meta? If power damage is superior in any way?
The op stated that there are cases in which power does more dmg than cond abilities (like when the conds gets immediately cleansed) which explains why we are still seeing some power classes in a “normal” tpvp group setup.
But in your world, how do you explain to yourself that anyone would run a cond build and even still be successful with it?
hint maybe your argumentation is a little bit of made up BS hint

At least almost everyone else seems to agree with op but you always have to have the contra people in every thread no matter how easy it is to understand the pros of the point you are making.

@Terrahero:
I think you are not quite getting the whole idea behind the suggested change:

The op doesn’t want to decrease the damage of a cond class in general but wants them to deal with the problem of having too much damage from one single attack which results into a very defensive playstyle from the cond class after applying his conds and still killing his target.
The op wants the cond class “to be active while killing” his target.
As an example: If class A can do a 6s burning on a 12s cd – the general idea behind this change would be to make it a 3s burning on 6s cd (or 4s on 8s cd) —> so you still have the same burning up time --> doing the same dmg. But you would have to hit more skills to do so and would therefor need a more aggressive playstyle:

—>so no more “I’m hitting you in 3s with 20k potential dmg and then kite around in circles while you die” – game play!

Mammoth.1975:

jportell.2197:

Lol really? not even close to true at all. Conditions have always been strong just not quite as strong as power. Now they out shine power in every single way possible.

Once again, math. Half the threads on this forum simply wouldn’t exist if people would bother to learn a little bit about the game before posting.

Unbelievable how many trolls seem to take their posts actually serious…
It’s so obvious that cond damage has a higher potential damage than power attacks that everyone gets it with some logical thinking and that’s how it should be. The potential damage has to be higher since the damage can theoretically pretty much be completely negated by one cleanse.
What the op is saying, is that the gap between the potential dmg between power and cond is too big. A decrease in cond duration would fix that problem and cond classes would still be able to maintain their dps though would have to “work harder” for it -> use their skills more often.

And I hope you realize that the op did not use the highest potential cond dmg ability in his exmaple.
I will show you what you can do with one kittening AUTO ATTACK on 900(!!!) range.
I made an engi with a little over 1400 cond dmg and 40% cond duration + smoldering (using nightmare runes/ smoldering + earth sigil and 30/30..whatever spec with Incendiary Powder and rabid amulet).

My power dmg of this attack crits on light over 200dmg – but lets say it’s 200.

Lets add the bleeding: 2s from the aa, 7s from earth and 4s from Sharpshooter (first minor trait in firearms) —> 13s bleeding.

The burning: 6s from Incendiary Powder.

My bleeding ticks for 113/s making it: 113*13 = 1469dmg.
My bruning ticks for 680/s making it: 4080dmg.

Lets add all this: 200 + 1469 + 4080 = 5749dmg!!!
from pressing one single key on 900 range – 98% of the dmg is unmitigatable and I’m still sitting around ~1600toughness.

Now you can show me which power based aa does a similar amount of dmg. I bet you can’t even find a melee attack with doing that damage. And btw that’s without any buffs – no Incendiary Ammo buff which would lead into another 4080 dmg gain!

And that just from a normal weapon – I could have brought up Shrapnel Grenade which does 3*16s bleeding + Shrapnel trait (another 16s bleeding) + all the other procs I listed above.
Or just try to think about the potential damage you have with Poison Grenade!

So how much more math which shows how wrong you actually are you wanna have.
Just funny how many posts in this forum we could spare if people would use some logical thinking before posting!

Very detailed and imo correct analysis of the problem everyone talks about for month and finally a suggestion which makes a lot of sense (at least for me).

It deals with the main problem which is the how easy cond classes can bring on their damage which leads to solving the “I’m hitting you with 3 attacks and when you don’t cleanse you will die while I’m watching you from above here” – problem!

The dps of a cond class would still be the same but a cond class would have to “work” much more to archive that dps and hitting your combo once wouldn’t mean that you can go kite around but you would need to actively continue doing your dmg such as power classes have to.

So yeah – I’m all for it. Reducing CD’s (and maybe the cast time from aa) but also cutting the duration timer down is the best solution I’ve heard for that problem by far!

You just have to look at what top teams are running at the moment to see where we got with cond damage. A few weeks ago teams were running with 1 cond class (engi or ranger), 1 bunker and 3power classes. Now all the top teams rerolled to necro (helseth, phantaram, cc always had one etc) so they play with at least 2 cond classes and it’s not surprising at all to me that the team with 3 cond classes actually won the eu tournament and sooner or later the other teams will copy as always…
so tp rerolled with 2 power classes to 2 condclasses

1. I don’t know about na but in eu pretty much every engi in the top teams runs flamethrower + bombs + self rezz (maybe rocket boots) but there are no grenades/HGH engis anymore so imo the trait change for the burning proc was a buff for sure (even with grenades but so even more).

2. A 6second burning (every engi/necro has at least 50% burning duration) which is not evadable is just too strong. The main damage from cond classes is burning and in GW2 I thought you are skilled if you can evade the most hurting abilities but with this burning proc dealing damage as an engi or necro becomes just skill-less.

3. Now we come to the rezz elixir. If there would be skill which deals 30k damage but has an easy to read animation, would you call it op? With your argumentation it would not be, because you can just “counter” it in form of an evade. But imo such a skill would be over powered because it can’t be that one skill is so game deciding if not countered every kitten time.
And how exactly are you going to counter the rezz? With cc? But the engi can evade the cc while he is still alive and when it comes to cc-ing corpses… there are maybe 4-5 skills in the entire game which could do this, all have a huge CD etc.
When you watch the 1on1 between Super and Teldo it’s just so stupid that the engi who goes down first gets such an advantage. Teldo said himself that the one thing that makes engi op is the rezz elixir. Imo there are a couple more things which make engi op but having 2 – 3 lives is on the very top of that list.

SPESHAL.9106:

Benji.9203:

What I have gathered from this thread:

- You still need Guardians, Mesmers, and Eles in tPvP.

Mesmer in current meta? Helseth rerolled necro. CC never had a mesmer. Xeph plays thief. Actually I would say guard, necro and engi and maybe to a lesser extend ele are “must have” atm. But mesmer???

Majority of people gonna queue just for 1 of these two rotations which leads into the other having ridiculous long waiting timer which then results into forcing the minority to queue for the more popular que…

Choops.3710:

tarcheg.4872:

Manuhell.2759:

A pull would be fine too – so, scorpion wire. But since you aren’t probably dealing condition damage as a thief – so he needs a direct intervent by your part to be downed – you may simply stop attacking and wait a few seconds so that the tossed elixir is depleted.
And you don’t even need a skill to do so.

So just don’t attack which results in the elixir being an invul for several seconds? Oh and yeah because scorpion wire is such a viable skill and a must have for every thief build…

Yeah, using skills situationally is too much work for me too.

I think you missunderstood. It’s not about using a skill, it’s about not taking a skill because it’s not viable because you would have to sacrafice too much.
Or do you wanna tell me that every thief who plays against a group which has an engi (with rezz elixir ofc) is just bad as long as he doesn’t equip scorpion wire? Is that your opinion of being flexible? To run a much less efficient build to have the chance to counter one skill from one class???

sorrow.2364:

tarcheg.4872:

If it’s so easy to avoid getting CC’d then please tell me why EVERY top player loses his home point when engi comes pushing his far. And I’m not talking about losing the point after the engi won the 1on1 – no the point gets decapped in the first 10-20s just by CC. Do you srsly thing they want to get kicked out of their point? Stop posting your BS everywhere…

First off, chill out. Nobody insulted you and there is no need to do so.
Where did you get the information that every top player loses his home point when an engi come?
This is a completely false statement.
I don’t know if you’ve checked the latest TP stream, but it didn’t looked like they got outplayer each time an engi came in their point, neither Caed, who posted a video of him getting outplayed, isn’t getting outplayed anymore.

You are just making up facts to prove a wrong point.

Did you watch any streams recently? If you would do so you would know that I’m not making up anything and engis do decap the point against anything with no stab in a few seconds. That’s a fact not something I made up.

Manuhell.2759:

A pull would be fine too – so, scorpion wire. But since you aren’t probably dealing condition damage as a thief – so he needs a direct intervent by your part to be downed – you may simply stop attacking and wait a few seconds so that the tossed elixir is depleted.
And you don’t even need a skill to do so.

So just don’t attack which results in the elixir being an invul for several seconds? Oh and yeah because scorpion wire is such a viable skill and a must have for every thief build…

Manuhell.2759:

Did i really read people saying the cooldown of smoke vent is 7s?
20s, 16s if traited. At least get the info right before complaining.

And imho, people here are whining about nothing. Bombs can’t cover the whole area, anyway, just kite from distance – and you can do that while on the point. And just use “your precious knockbacks” if someone tosses an elixir r: you’re making the opponent waste a skill with a base 120s cooldown, i would say it is quite advantageous. You just have to react properly. And if you aren’t able, well, it is just your fault.
So, yeah, it is really that some people can be that bad.

Please tell me what “precious knockback” the thief should have used to kick him out the elixir?

Ofc it’s always that everyone else is just a noob – doesn’t matter that they’re playing in one of the most successful teams. Something is never op just everyone else sucks so hard…
Really tired of this stupid argumentation.
Please tell me what he exactly did on his way that was so skilled?
1. He wasted his rezz elixir for mogwow.
2. He used his bombs while pressing w.
3. He used another rezz elixir to have a 2nd life.
I’m really stunned at this high skill level. Though I am not saying the engi is not a good engi – he very likely is, but I’m saying it doesn’t take much to be super efficient with an engi atm and that’s not because the player xyz sucks but because engi is too strong.

sorrow.2364:

Audiogasm.7643:

To sorrow, as you don’t seem to understand i ll point out the flaw in your arguments.
First you said that being pushed out of the map to your death was a long serie of mistakes which is competitive and i would agree if that was true.
But i disagree because you can get push on only ONE mistake in this map, it is far too punishing.
You then say that making one single mistake and being hard punished for that is competitive -> first self contradiction. I point it out.
You then resay that it’s a a series of mistake -> second self contradiction.

That’s you that don’t understand what I say or you don’t want to understand.
I did not say that you can get pushed off on only ONE mistake. I’ve said that this map gives no room for errors, which means that you can’t afford to make errors because you’d die. Those are two different things.

Here’s my list of things you’ve done wrong if you get pushed off a cliff:

- Didn’t brought a proper stunbreaker
- Had no good positioning
- Had no stability on when you was in a dangerous spot
- Didn’t pushed off the enemy first
- Didn’t prevented the CC to be applied with any sort of blocks/invulnerability
- Didn’t teleported away from the ledge you fell from.

If you make all of these mistakes, then you fall off the cliff and die.

Audiogasm.7643:

Then if you can read, i said you usually fight for a node when out of cd, because it seems conquest is all about nodes, well maybe i was wrong and when an ennemy comes to contest my node i shall run in fear of him killing me because i got no cd.
Anyway you seem like the the type of personn who cannot handle a debat and recognise his flaws, or just a troll guys.
That’s my last answer to you, srry to others ppl for multiple posts.

I thought that you was talking about cannon fights, in which you can decide when to engage and when not.
Still, if you have your CCs on cooldown, you still made 5 of the 6 mistakes I’ve listed above.

If it’s so easy to avoid getting CC’d then please tell me why EVERY top player loses his home point when engi comes pushing his far. And I’m not talking about losing the point after the engi won the 1on1 – no the point gets decapped in the first 10-20s just by CC. Do you srsly thing they want to get kicked out of their point? Stop posting your BS everywhere…

Did you ever try to stun break an updraft? -.-
Please, you just try to defend something any half skilled player will call op.
CC is balanced in a certain way and believe it or not, it’s not meant to insta-gib someone in any situation. But when suddenly CC is able to insta-gib someone the balance of CC is getting upside down.
And if it’s so easy to avoid CC, then please tell me why EVERY good player loses his point against an engi just cause of his CC??? Do you think they want to be kicked out of the point?

Ostricheggs.3742:

Engis kill BM rangers pretty easy too, lol. Maybe not EU engis and their crazy specs, but I know BM was one of the easiest, albeit annoying, fights I could have had.

I’m honestly not too sure why you guys are having so much trouble with a class pushing far-point that destroys a lot of unprepared teams on their backpoint. That’s especially true in a build designed for the role and is less-than-optimal everywhere else.

If you somehow manage to neutralize what the engi does with EU specific far-point engi builds than you’ve destroyed his reason to be playing an engi entirely.

I am genuinely confused at this thread. Outside of the honest complaint about elixir R (the stunbreak issue never fixed the core problem and just destroyed good builds) I don’t believe that this thread has any merit. It’s like complaining far-point thieves need a nerf because your mesmer backpoint is getting destroyed.

Switch your necro, other engi or any other class that can 1v1 that build to your backpoint, communicate where the engi is at all times INCLUDING respawns, watch your backpoint like a hawk and laugh your way to victory as the engi struggles in a different role.

A good comparison would be phantasm mesmers. They’re 1v1 gods, extremely difficult to kill but once you find someone who can kill them they become useless. Either that or just ignore them and find a way to deal with it with either high mobility back-caps yourself or winning your teamfights at mid to collapse on the engi.

Just unbelievable – you must be so terrified that your engi might get another nerf to write such kitten and be serious about it.
You’re saying an engi can only 1on1? You compare his team fight ability to that of a phantasm mesmer???
Engi has 2 rezzes, lots of AoE and CC and his dmg through conds is anything else than low and his elite is nothing less than a 2s AE stun + heal and turrets.
And if you watched the recent streams you even might have noticed that putting a necro on close is not an instant win against the engi. It’s more like the engi destroys the necro in 1on1’s on the last few high lvl match ups I have seen.
But my point is that engi is really good in team fights and almost unbeatable by in 1on1’s. There are so many matches on twitch that prove how much influence an engi has who his pushing far 24/7 (hint carcrash vs denial).

Maybe you didn’t notice but Skyhammer is point capture as well. Just with CC being even stronger.

Classes must be balanced in a “normal” environment.
If CC suddenly insta-gibs you then that changes the whole balance compared to fights on an even terrain.
CC is already strong enough – does it really needs the chance of an insta-gib?

Did you actually watch any streams of recent paid tournaments? Which maps are being played and which ones are not?
Forest+Foefire+Kyhlo are the ones that are the most balanced, deal with it.

People who seriously believe that positioning was/is not important in any PvP game are just ignorant.
Especially in point capture mode maps.

You suggest everyone should just reroll FOTM everytime a new patch comes up?
I really do not hope that’s what Anet is trying to achive…

Reading the forums in regards to the new pvp map Skyhammer – especially being in the tournament rotation it became very clear to me that we many players are saying it’s the most fun map ever and fun is all that matters.

On the other hand we have people, in general higher on the leaderboards, qqing that this map just prefers CC builds and grief play and is has nothing to do with competetive play.

I agree that Skyhammer does not promote competetive play though I understand that it might be fun for not as high ambitious players to have “something new”.

So my question is really simple – What do you have in mind, especially for tournaments?? Should they be for the fun of the community or promote competetive skill play?

I was always under the impression that TPvP is supposed to be competetive for groups with high ambitions but maybe I was wrong.

Shar.3402:

It will be like Tor Anroc over and over again, but without lava (who played Warhammer Online knows what I means).

Made my day xD

Condition hate sounds like an interesting idea

Why? because you see so many viable condition specs in TPvP without any access to burning? Like the necro pre patch which was like a must have in every team comp? … Not.
Burning is by far the strongest damage condition. Only an ele in tornado might fear confusion more.
Burning is easy to apply and does the most damage. You do not have to stack it like bleeding and the damage is insane. Especially when one trait gives you easily a 60% up time.

@Ceraldor: I completely agree.

Uberkafros.5431:

Condion typed damage is also prone to runes/food/traits that reduce condition duration to which power damage is not.
Also a stealthed bs or an ely insta burst cannot be negated in the same way a burning proc can’t.You speculate it and try to take pre emptive actions.At least when you get the burn you have time to react and negate it even further with a condi removal,or even break a fear chain with a stun breaker.

It’s intersting to see that the whole meta condi cry has escalated frmo just necros to condis in general.

Understand,Adapt,React.

PS:Also i laugh when i see people comparing Cond dmg to Power dmg and say that X atk does 4k power dmg INSTANTLY while Y atk does 6K condi dmg OVER 20 SECONDS.

1. Let me tell you something which might be new to www players: there is no food in spvp.
2. As I said I was at all the time referring to the current meta. I know a warrior has berserker stance and an engi has Automated Response. But do you see any of this used in TPvP? No you do not! You also see very limited use of -cond duration runes as I mentioned in my original post… please read carefully before posting.
To be honest, your post has none constructive feedback – just the usually L2P comment which of course has to be in any thread which is trying to have some kind of discussion. And your food comment made me lose any confident that you actually put any deep thoughts in your post at all.

And btw – Ceraldor was talking about “potential” dmg. If you’re not familiar with that word take a look at: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/potential

Dirame.8521:

Mammoth.1975:

The buff to weakness is one of the biggest reasons DD builds are suffering tbh. The new weakness doesn’t turn crits into half damage crits, it turns them into glancing blows, half damage hits. A little basic math:

I thought they brought the damage reduction down to 25%?

No, it’s still 50%.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weakness

You are right, my bad – I forgot about the cond cleanse heal from necros.

And yes, there are and probably always will be a minority of players and teams which do not go the “fotm-way” and still will be successful to a certain degree. But that doesn’t negate the fact that condition classes are getting more and more the norm by the day: I read player names which used to be thieves, eles or mesmer which are now necro or engis.

jcbroe.4329:

Exists. I’m not sure why so many forum goers have been suggesting the need for it, when it has been implemented in the game already.

It’s called Vitality. Take a target, kill it with conditions. Now double their vitality, apply the same conditions, and watch it take twice as long to kill them.

Example: Armor Rating reduces incoming power damage, but doesn’t effect condition damage. Health Pool reduces the effectiveness of condition damage (takes longer to deplete the health pool) but is only marginally effective (if that) against power damage (as in, power damage for the most part results in the same net loss of health if health is the only attribute that has been increased).

I’m not sure why there have been so many “we need condition resistance” posts I’ve been reading lately, when it’s already been implemented into the game.

So vita only affect condition dmg? Are you in the false assumption that power dmg does % dmg of targets HPs? Cause it does not. A thief has a much easier time to burst down a target with 12k HPs than someone with 25k HPs. Vita is a counter against every type of dmg (as long as it’s not %-based), not only against conds.
I have stated this in a new thread – check it out: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Reasons-why-we-have-a-cond-meta/first#post2368971

Blind/Aegis/other Blocks/Dodge Roll/Invul:
Now this maybe not as clear as the previous stated advantages of cond dmg. Why does missing one single attack (whyever) hurt power dmg just a huge more than a cond attack?
To get to the reason of that we have to analyze where the main dmg of power and cond classes is coming from in the current meta.
Let’s take a bs thief or hybrid/dmg ele. If you blind or get an aegis to block a thief’s bs his whole combo is ruined. He probably used steal, maybe a refuge to get stealthed etc and all for pretty much nothing. Other power example would be an ele. When you dodge his arcane burst or just press randomly an invul the ele has to wait for his arcane skills to get of cd before doing another strong burst like that.
Now let’s have a look at cond classes. One might argue that you can do the same with cond classes. Dodge the confusion bomb, dodge in necro marks etc. But:
first – cond classes in general do not rely on one heavy burst like a bs thief, 100b warrior, ele, mesmer – they are able to have a much higher sustain dmg output to melt targets over a couple second rather than killing it in half a second.
second – and this is the really broken aspect imo: Engis and Necros (the two used cond classes atm) have a trait which gives them their most dmg on a proc. It’s like a thief trait which gives him every 10s a bs on a proc. Burning is the one condition a class needs to have an effective condition spec. Burning is where most of the dmg comes from. And there srsly is a trait which gives you 60% burning up time (4s + cond duration / every nec/engi has at least 50% burning duration) on a proc.
Let me explain why it is op to have your main dmg coming from a proc. It’s pretty simple. Did you ever try to dodge a proc? Or to blind it? Or evade it with anything else??? It’s just not possible. Let’s say you know that the icd of his burning trait is off so you dodge his next attack to avoid the burning application. What does this do? You get no dmg during the time you evade, BUT his main dmg source did not go on a cd and most likely you will be burned for 6s with his next attack. There just is no way to effectively evade the burning. This is a huge different when compared to how power classes do their main dmg and to be honest – this is intolerable in a game in which “skill” is evading the attacks which hurt you the most.
Ofc all necros and engis will say now, that we have cond removal to counter them. But what many people forget is, that some classes just simply have no access to cond removal like mesmer and others just don’t pay off.
Let’s look at the current meta in which cond removal plays a huge part. We pretty much always have a mesmer with 0 cond removal. Than there is most likely an ele with very limited cond removal (see my statement at the top about ele and cond removal) we got an engi with limited cond removal (2 every ~17s ae) and a necro who has 0 cond removal but cond transferring – but transferring does not take conds out of the game. The general feeling of how conds rule the game atm is not reduced by transferring them to the enemy team. On the opposite – the other team will feel even more screwed by conds. Only the guard has atm reasonable access to cond removal with his shout build.
In addition there are very few runes with -cond duration which are almost not used in the current meta.
As it seems, the last patches have shifted the meta in the condition direction a huge step. The contras for pwer classes outshine the contras for cond classes – which is pretty much only cond removal – by far and the meta is representing that fact by team comp consisting of 1 bunker guard, 2 necro, 1 engi and a mesmer (mostly because portal and iol are still just a must have).

I wanna say at the end, that this is not a necro op thread. Or an engi op thread. This thread just wants to outline the general disadvantages of any power class compared to cond applying classes.

Chaith.8256:

Necro, Engi, Ranger vs. Guardian, Ele, Mesmer, Thief, Warrior

It’s about the meta. Not about what classes do. It’s about what class is currently in the meta and what they play in the meta.
Do you see a dps guard in meta? do you see warrior in meta? No.
But you do see 2 necros + 1 engi in meta. One mesmer for portal and iol and a bunker.

Kravick.4906:

Why all the complaining about conditions all of a sudden. They haven’t changed. They do the same damage they’ve always done.

Yes but in the previous patch Anet shifted the meta towards cond classes a huge step.
The conds did not really change (oh wait – there just happen to be a new cond – it’s called torment, and since there are 1-2 necros on almost each serious team comp atm, 20-40% of the team members have access to it).
But nevertheless – it’s not about torment, it’s about cond dmg being >>> power dmg and conds being “overused” in the meta atm which makes skills like epidemic even stronger.
So no, besides of torment (and maybe blind) there wasn’t a big change on conds but what did change was the meta towards cond specced classes thanks to the previous patch.

Ranger skill foor too high?
You say that a ranger can do 40% of his dmg just by letting his pet attack but at the same time you talk about a high skill floor? What other class can so easily put out 40% of his dmg? In addition ranger has many evades so it’s not like dodging once at the wrong time is going to mess you up too badly.
Anyway, I pretty much agree on all the other parts you mentioned – but not on a high skill floor.

What this idea would do is pretty simple —> it would reward winning a fight much more.
Atm a build has one of the following two goals:
1. stay as long enough alive as possible with as much cc and stab so you don’t lose your point you are fighting on or
2. do as much dmg as possible to have a chance killing builds of type 1.
But nether of those two build types is actually the best way to go when you wan to WIN a fight. And isn’t winning a fight what true pvp should be about?!?!??
At least the main part? There will still be bunkering and glass cannons as long as there is something to cap, but maybe to a lesser extend. So that you see 1 bunker, 1 glass cannons and 3 hybrids in a team comp.

How can any of you say that games would last longer with that change?
You can always change the numbers to make tweaks the way you want it.
e.g. atm one point ticks for 1 point every 2 seconds. Who says that in Med’s system a fresh point ticks every half second, than once a second, than once every 2seconds and leave it by 3 stages. When you put in those numbers you would cry that the game is over way too fast.
You can also very easily just change the 500 point to win mark to change the lenght of a game in the “right” direction.

Anyway, as I far as I am able to judge it, I can only see good changes coming from this.
Imo staling is one of the most horrible things in this game cause it’s just most bunker vs most glass cannon as possible. It’s very often not about winning a fight but much more staying alive at least long enough for the next group member to arrive and stal.

Sitting on points (passive play) is just much too rewarding compared to attacking another point. Also the chance of seeing more hybrid builds is one of the key arguments for me personal.

In eu every tpvp team has:
1 guard
1 mesmer
and at least 1 ele, some top teams even have 2
last 2 spots are to 99% filled with thief/ranger/engi

so in eu tpvp the popularity ranking is more like:
1. ele
2. guard/mesmer
3. thief/ ranger/engi
…
4. warrior/necro (very rare)

OGDeadHead.8326:

A pet that constantly crits like its master- hell yes, we would be able to burn anything down so fast it would cause another uproar.

But I guess, that wasn’t what the OP or the other folks in this thread had in mind, right?

I’m pretty sure what the OP had in mind was to ->balance<- the class cause that… would make the game more balanced = better?!
If the ranger needs a nerf to be balanced, like you proposed then so be it because you said yourself: “to burn anything down” would not be balanced.
To scale pet stats of the ranger stats is just the logical thing to do. A pet from a bunker ranger should not do the same dmg as the same pet from an offensive ranger.
The actually numbers have to be balanced ofc.
If the raven crits for 8k with f2 atm it’s probably not very balanced if he would crit for 15k afterwards – or is that your understanding of balance???

It really is a no-brainer to everyone with an objective view on it.

no keybind for dodge – that must be it…

If you want someone to invade far, a ranger is a much better and safer option.
1. The ranger is a lot stronger in 1v1’s.
2. If the enemy reinforces their close (which happens quite often) the ranger has a much higher chance at staying alive than the s/d thief.

just saying

Blurred Frenzy should not auto-turn in the direction of your target.
eg you are dodging through the mesmer using bf and he just turns 180 WHILE still in his bf animation —> NO other skill does that.
Probably already said but this needs to be FIXED (fixed(!) not nerfed cause it’s not working as intended) asap.

You do know that you killed the ele with the last eviscerate which leads into some of the dmg (the overdmg) being calculated against 0 armor – which is what you have in DS.
So the damage from skills which are downing the enemy are by no way a reliable source for testing.
And please tell me how the changes from the last patch affected the damage? The ele only has one boon up so you would gain 3% more damage compared to pre patch…