Guild Wars 2

Harddrive.2738:

I personally have no issue with it being 150 LI, but they need to add ways to increase the drop rate.

I personally think it should be more of a daily with weekly caps but letting us convert shards is sensible also.

If you could buy LI for 30 shards, that is +5 a week. For a time gate, telling people they need to kill on average 4 bosses a week is obtainable, but still a fair amount of work.

4+5(shards) = 9 = ~4 months. That is practical (but still annoyingly long).
Those that do kill all 9 in guilds +5 = 14 = ~2.5 months, which is still sensible for a time gate.

Harddrive.2738:

When giving people a choice and they assume the “troll” option, what does that tell us?

Think about it, if you already have a 150 II or close enough, why are you in the form? It has nothing to do with you and changes nothing to your ability to obtain the armor. AkA your just complaining cause you can, AKA troll.

You know what I think is a good example for behaving like a “troll”? If you keep repeating the same few arguments again and again and just ignore the counter-arguments, like you (and a few others) do it. There were a lot of people who explained why they think 150 LI are fine and why they shouldn´t be lowered or easier to obtain. They brought substantive arguments and were far away from trolling. I even gave you some metaphors to paraphrase what we´re talking about. But let me repeat it once more, just for you:

Issue 1: Are 150 LI suitable to prove skill or just “grind”/ a time gate?

Of course they are suitable to prove skill, because you need to kill as much bosses as you can if you want to reach the required LI in a reasonable amount of time.

timson.4356:

Skill also means to be capable to replicate a good performance again and again. That´s what capacity means.
Am I a good basketballer if I´m able to hit the basketball basket from close distance a few times? Not really!
Am I a good basketballer if I´m able to reliable hit it 150 times from close, middle and long distance? Yes!

But are 150 LI really necessary to show skill, isn´t it “grind”?

First of all: It´s kind of subjective what feels like grind to you. And I believe that it can feel like grind sometimes, if you try to pug all LI with different people. But it won´t feel like grind if you collect the LI the way they were intended and form up a group / join a guild. It´ll become an enjoyable adventure then.
And secondly: The number of 150 LI maybe wouldn´t be inevitable if people had to kill all bosses several times anyways. But based on the aforementioned reasons it´s still the most reliable way to prove skill, particularly because there are possibilities to shirk some demands/bosses. Especially if you´d lower LI, what leads us to the next problem:

Issue 2: Why don´t just lower the required LI or make them easier to obtain in order to reduce the time gate?

Because aside from the fact that everyone had the same chances to form a group and start raiding successfully right from the beginning & the fact that time gates are a natural component of long-term goals, there is nearly no way to reduce the time gate without increasing the possibilities to shirk bosses and therefor also lower the required skill.

If you lower required LI, a lot of people would just do the easy bosses and/or buy LI. And people would do that, I heard there are some who are willing to spend ~ £2000 for the armor. The only thing that prevents a lot of people from buying LI is the fact they couldn´t afford enough gold for 150 LI.

Same if you´d make them easier to obtain. If you´d introduce the possibility to kill bosses daily (even with weekly cap), people would kill Mc Leod seven times a week + Trio a few times.
If you´d introduce the possibility to buy LI with shards, people would also just kill the easy bosses, maybe fail around a bit at the other ones and buy them. And your suggestion to sell them for 15-30 shards/LI is really risible. Remember: Even useless Minis cost 300 shards + 1 gold each.
The only thing one could think about would be the possibility to buy one additional LI/wing after you killed all 3 bosses for like 300-500 shards (what´s the normal price for Raid-stuff). That would give people the possibility to earn a few more LI without lowering the required effort all too much.

Issue 3: Isn´t the collection enough to prove skill?

No, it´s simply not. Most parts are pretty easy to collect and the other ones could be bought easily.

Issue 4: Why would it devalue the armor if it would be easier to obtain? Are people who raid successfully just selfish/begrudging?

Yes it would and no their not. Rarity is a basic component of value. And those who have more skill or invested more effort than others deserve it to get a valuable reward. For your visualization:

timson.4356:

Imagine you would climb the Mount Everest with a group of like-minded people. You affronted all dangers and overcome all obstacles. When you finally reach the top – what an amazing feeling!
Would it feel the same if you were brought up by a helicopter? I´m sure it would not.

May you would argue that no one forces you to use the helicopter? Well, that´s right. But bear in mind that if you climbed the Everest, you surely want to take a photo so that you will keep in mind your moment of victory for all days. And does it feel the same if you look at the photo and there are 100 people standing around on top with you – all brought up by helicopters? No, it doesn´t!

So please stop asking Anet for helicopters, start to train so that one day you can climb the Everest by yourself. I promise you – it will feel amazing!

Issue 5: So isn´t there any way to arbitrate between the parties?

Not really. The one and only argument against 150 LI is the ambition to make the Armor easier to obtain, so that more people can get the armor. But that´s exactly what those who crave for a really exclusive reward and a worthwhile long-term goal want to avoid. There´s no way to make it more accessible without making it less desirable for those who are willing to invest real effort.

So the only way I see to dissolve this dilemma would be, if Anet introduces a second Legendary Armor with another skin. This Armor could include a few faceroll collections and tons of mats and gold, just like Legendary Weapons. This way both parties would be happy, those who want a challenge and an exclusive reward and those who just want a Legendary Armor as soon as possible and as easy as possible.

Harddrive.2738:

Also keep in mind that raids have been out for almost 7 month

Irrelevant, you can’t possibly assume everyone could have started 7 months ago, screw new players!!!! NO ARMOR FOR YOU

Yes, that´s the way it should be. NO ARMOR FOR NEW PLAYERS. They can work for it as we did. If you balance it around new players or low performers, you remove the only worthwhile long-term goal in PVE.

Harddrive.2738:

Legendary items are to show dedication towards something and potentially skill. This is something that a lot of people were asking of legendary weapons as they disliked that someone could simply just by one off of the TP. They weren’t really legendary then.

I think the problem is obvious. You and many others like you dislike how anet handles the term legendary.

Sucks to be you, but thats not our problem.

That’s it! But at the moment there are 150 LIs required. You think you won´t get enough and you don´t want to bring the necessary effort as others did? Sucks to be you, that´s not our problem.

Harddrive.2738:

Ayrilana.1396:

Harddrive.2738:

You have read nothing, 150 LI is fine, the ability to get more in less time is what I’ve been saying. Should be closer to a daily with a weekly cap in my opinion.

If it was a daily reset on LI and not weekly, it satisfies everything you just said. lol

If you think a massive time gate with large spans of time between the same boss proves anything, what else is there to say to you?

Not really as players will just farm the easy bosses. It trivializes their being a required amount of LI. It’s not really that massive of a time gate. Every 2.8 weeks I’ll get a piece of legendary armor. Sounds pretty good to me.

You really aren’t reading, its near impossible to get all 9 bosses in 1 week for most players. Everyone without a guild raid will either dedicate there life to it or won’t get anywhere near it.

It´s difficult (not impossible) to get all 9 bosses in one week if you try to pug them. So I can just repeat the same we told you hundred times before: Go and play Raids the way they are intended – join or build a group/guild and do it together.

Some of those who are fighting for lowering the LIs / reduce the time to collect them told us their suggestions how to change over. There were a few sophisticated (from insanemaniac for instance) and a few risible ones (selling LIs for 15 shards – still laughing ^^). But all these suggestions had one thing in common: They would make it a lot easier to get the required insights and they would demand less skill to get the Armor. As I said before: Skill also means to be capable to replicate a good performance again and again. That´s what capacity means.
And because of this all those suggestions would lower the value of the Armor.

You can´t understand why it would devalue the Armor? Let me give you another metaphor to explain it:

Imagine you would climb the Mount Everest with a group of like-minded people. You affronted all dangers and overcome all obstacles. When you finally reach the top – what an amazing feeling!
Would it feel the same if you were brought up by a helicopter? I´m sure it would not.

May you would argue that no one forces you to use the helicopter? Well, that´s right. But bear in mind that if you climbed the Everest, you surely want to take a photo so that you will keep in mind your moment of victory for all days. And does it feel the same if you look at the photo and there are 100 people standing around on top with you – all brought up by helicopters? No, it doesn´t!

So please stop asking Anet for helicopters, start to train so that one day you can climb the Everest by yourself. I promise you – it will feel amazing!

Ayrilana.1396:

People don’t want grind but they don’t realize that is what keeps players doing content and thus keeping MMO’s alive. No developer can roll out enough content to keep players consistently engaged and busy. Grind has been a staple in many MMO’s and even RPG’s themselves. If people dislike them then perhaps they’re playing the wrong genre?

You´re right, but the “grind” isn´t the real problem of the most players complaining about the required insights here. Insofar we´re leading a fake discussion in many parts. Just look at previous posts (in other threads) from a lot of those players, there are a lot like “Tequatl is too difficult – nerv!”, “Gerent is too difficult – nerv!”, “Hero challenges are too difficult – nerv!” And they´re always pretending to speak for “the player base”.

Remembering that it´s obvious that the real problem of a lot of those players is the fact they´re not able to get the insights (soon) due to lack of skill or due to lack of effort. But they figured out that complaining about “grind” or “massive time gates” is much more accepted than complaining about difficulty.
And it sounds much better than statements like “I can´t get them cause I´m lacking skill”, “I´m too lazy to search for a capable group”, “I missed raiding at the beginning but I don´t want to wait for the armor” or “I want to faceroll content like I always did and get the Armor anyway”. But those statements would be more honest in many cases.

If they were serious with their grind issues, they would complain about farming gold/T6 Mats/provisioner tokens. But most of them don´t, cause in reality they´re fine with farming Silvervastes or Cursed Shore and pressing 1-1-1. And they can´t accept that there is a reward they can´t achive this way now.

ezd.6359:

insanemaniac, i think your idea is hard to implement. It is more easy (and more fair) just sell li for shards like 15/each. This means even if you fail long enough with randoms you can buy li. Shards are also limited == time gate, but you can farm it even with bad groups.

You´re really cute ^^

Oh, Anet – I´d like to get a few more Ad Infinitums. But I really don´t like to grind and I hate it to build a group. And high tier Fractals are pretty difficult. So please sell Ad Infintum for Fractal Relics like 15-20/each. This sounds fair i guess

ezd.6359:

… [Raids] require your raiding team to bring a high level of skill, strategy, and coordination in order to succeed
… and other similar arguments “create your own group”…

All these advices you provide only help GRIND FASTER. But i think it should not be a part of the game… ok may be in small amounts. But 150 li is just prohibitive wall for most of people. I don’t think everyone must be forced to create static groups just to grind 1 component for 4 months. Is it asian MMO or what? It is not fun at all.

No one forces you to create a group and “grind” insights. But you can´t expect to get the Legendary Armor then. If you´re not willing to bring the effort or to work on it a few month (and we really had enough time to collect plenty more insights than we need even before the Armor will be released), you just shouldn´t craft it.
You´d like to drive a Ferrari? Fine, earn the money and buy it. You´re not able or not willing to “grind” the money? Fine, drive a VW. Will it help you to ask Ferrari to lower the price, so that everyone could buy one? No, that´s not how it works.

It´s not the problem to learn the fights and find a “static group”. And your real problem isn´t that you couldn´t find a group, it´s the fact that you missed to bring the effort to create one and rather relied on Anet to set the requirements to any kind of skill as low as they always did. But they didn´t. They decided to introduce the one and only worthwhile long-term goal in this game, and they did it really well. And now you don´t want to spend as much time as those who brought effort right from the beginning and prefer whining in order to get Anet to lower the LIs.

And let me tell you something: If you try to pug all 150 LI, it maybe feels like grind. But as soon as you´ve created a nice, like-minded group of Raiders, it´s really funny and doesn´t feel like grind. I guess no one would call it a grind when you´re playing well designed, challenging content with a nice group a few hours a week. That´s the difference.

But oh, I forgot – the game is mean and Raiders are even meaner and it´s nearly impossible to find a group. So Anet should rather decrease the LIs and increase the required gold, so you can go farming the silverwastes and multiloot Tarir as always and being happy that you prevented a grind. That was a close one!

ezd.6359:

You can’t understand. For those who have static group it is not grind. They have 130-140 li already. They never tried to find a decent group using LFG. So they will never understand how good they are when 9 random people have differenct skill, don’t use TS and 2-3 people fail something on every kill attempt and you must work 200% times better and fail any way.

Harddrive.2738:

You clearly have never raid pugged.

The LI time gate is so massively larger then everything else, how could you not want to keep it as short as possible.

I would normally never buy raid wins because I know I can do them but given how much time can be saved personally and overal, its very temping like others have said.

I´m really, really, really tired of this argument – because it´s nonsense. Raids NOT MEANT TO BE PUGGED REGULARLY. There are many statements from Anet that prove this, for example: „… [Raids] require your raiding team to bring a high level of skill, strategy, and coordination in order to succeed“ – Steven Waller, August 29, 2015.
You simply can´t expect to find such a team if you pug Raids with different players all the time. It´s not a coincidence that there wasn´t a Raid section in LFG at the beginning. This section was only introduced because players asked for it and the fact that many pug groups are able to succeed just shows how established common Raid tactics are. LFG should be used to get your first experience or to find people you can start to raid with – but nothing more.

Let me tell you a little story: When Raids came out, my girlfriend and I didn´t raid at all, cause our guild wasn´t willing to bring the necessary effort to succeed. But we really wanted to raid, cause it´s the only content in PVE that requires skill and therefore attracted us. So we started trying to pug Raids via LFG at February. But there was a problem: No group was willing to pick us except “training” and “all welcome” groups cause we had no LIs, not to mention the eternal title. So we raided with those groups for hours and hours (in the evening and at the weekend – we have jobs and rl!), but we were not able to succeed with them. But we figured out which players we´re capable and started to add them to our friendlist. After a while we were able to build a team out of 6-7 players from our friendlist and a few pugs. And we started to clear the first wing successfully now – not quickly, but consistent.
As soon as we had 20 LI and Raid experience with a few classes, we joined a competent Raiding Guild, cause we had the demanded requirements now.
Nowadays we have more than 100 LIs and we need like two hours to clear all three wings with our guild. Twice a week we help out our old friends from LFG to get their insights.

That´s what EFFORT and progress means and everyone could do it the same way, it´s not a miracle. But there are a few players who prefer to complain about “the grind” and about the elitism in order to move Anet to lower the LIs. But you shouldn´t move Anet, you should move yourself. Really!

And a last few words: Collecting 150 LIs is a long way, but it definitely proves that you have the skill you should have if you want a LEGENDARY Armor. Everyone is able to collect a few LI by beating the easy bosses and everyone is able to buy the necessary components of the collections in case of doubt. But skill also means to be capable to replicate a good performance again and again. That´s what capacity means.
Am I a good basketballer if I´m able to hit the basketball basket from close distance a few times? Not really!
Am I a good basketballer if I´m able to reliable hit it 150 times from close, middle and long distance? Yes!

Robles.7458:

I agree that 150 LI are too many. I am in a guild in which many people only get 1 or 2 LI each week and since they would need more than 2 years for the legendary armor playing regularly, they say that they won´t do more raids if the price doesn´t change.

We were told that people who did raids “regularly and successfully” would have enough LI. So, what is the meaning of regularly and succesfully? To do 3 full wings for 4 months? I´m sorry, but I can´t believe that these words mean this. I can only think that were were told one thing and got a very different one.

150 insights are fine. Legendary Armor isn´t addressed to everyone who wants to get it without bringing the necessary effort. It´s for them who are able to kill all raid bosses successfully for several times and therefor proved their power of endurance and their skill. Otherwise it wouldn´t be a Legendary Armor, it would be a (maybe) nice looking armor for everyone who invests at least a bit time into this game, just like legendary weapons.

Gw2 is an amazing game, but before Raids and Legendary Armor were announced, it had one problem: There wasn´t any kind of performance based long-term goals in PVE to bind those player´s, who were able and willing to bring some effort. Now those kinds of players have something to work for, even if it´s just for prestige. Most of those players have at least more than 100 insights now and will have plenty more than 150 when Legendary Armor will finally be released. So Anet really shouldn´t lower the number of required insights, they should rather retain the one and only existing worthwhile long-term goal instead. If you lower the required Insights, Legendary Armor will be much less exclusive and desirable. 150 Insights ensure that you have to kill nearly all bosses several times to succeed OR that you have to work hard for a long time if you´re not able to kill all. If Anet would lower them, some people would just kill the easy bosses and would maybe buy the few achievements they´re not able to get by their own.
People complain getting 150 li would be grind. But why most of them don’t complain about the necessary Provisionor Tokens or the T6 materials? Cause it´s not the grind what bother them, it´s because they´re not willing to bring the necessary effort or they missed to bring it right from the beginning and now they´re not willing to work for it as long as those people who started raiding successfully when raids came out.

eldrin.6471:

misleading isnt lieing. and i dont get why a few of you guys are so set on keeping the number of insights at 150.what difference would it really make to lower it to 90 or a 100.
or let us buy an extra one a week with margonite shards.
i suspect its because some folk are selling runs and are just greedy.

For those who claim 150 li would lead more people to buy raids/lis: The opposite is what happens in reality. Why? Because there´s nearly no one (aside from eldrin maybe) who would be able and willing to afford the costs of buying 150 li. People buy raids to get achievements like eternal or slippery slubling or maybe to get their first insights to ensure they have the requirements to join raid groups. If they want to get the whole 150 li, they have to get some by their own and once they started raiding successfully, they will not spend their money on insights they´re able to get by their own. But the more you lower the number of necessary insight, the more the number of players who´ll think about just buying them will increase.