Guild Wars 2

azurrei.5691:

People made entire builds around Celestial gear – MF has no effect on said build – simple, really…

I’d like to see that build which uses power, precision, crit dmg, cond. damage, healing power, thougness and vitality with max effectiveness.. That build better utilize all of those stats as efficiently as their min-max counterparts.. Better not lose anything.. Because they already lose maximum amount of stats..

I guess it is the 30/30/30/30/30/30 build isn’t it?..

You lose twice with celestial.. That’s why being over-budget is the only means to balance it.. And obviously it’s not overbudget enough if a hybrid elementalist can be better with mixing knights and berserkers..

Make it… Looking at all those pretty bunch of stats lose its allure when you play with it
for a couple of weeks…

Don’t get me wrong, celestial is not useless.. If you want (and can get) a somewhat hybrid build, and mix it %50 (or less) with berserkers you’ll get results (not better dmg than berserkers obviously, just more diverse).. But, that is all that it’s useful for now.. Nothing else.. A full set of celestial has always been subpar as a combat gear… It doesn’t feel like it can do anything, in fact it feels like it can do nothing..

azurrei.5691:

You are losing a stat that has no effect at all on the performance of your elementalist

What exactly is explorers’ set losing performance-wise if the magic find is removed from them, but it had its 2 remaining combat stats?

Make the full set.. And you’ll see, it’s weaker than anything else you can put on.. Effectiveness <> Total stats..

The problem has never been, people losing combat effectiveness when MF is removed from their gear.. This does not apply to any MF set.. It just would make MF sets inferior to other options.. And that applies to celestial as well.. Simple really..

Coldin.2840:

How I understand it is that you will get enough MF essences to get to 20%, assuming you had no account MF at all.

I’m kind of hoping honestly that the bonuses from the Achievement MF and the new Essence of Luck MF are separately counted.

Or it could be that.. There’s not much difference between two methods anyway, with achievement MF bonuses being so low.. They have different levels of complexity for their real implementation, but neither should be really that “complex”..

As can be seen in their ascended crafting stream they will be sending a number of purple essences to everyone… Since those essences give you a static amount of luck, you will be gaining a static amount of luck.. And there’s no reason to think that they will send different amounts of that stuff to everyone.. It would be the same..

But since, amount of luck required per “MF-level” is getting higher, the final MF you’ll get can not be calculated as a simple addition.. If you had %6 MF before, you won’t get to %26.. It will be less than that probably.. But more than %20..

That is how i get it…

This game never awarded higher stats for achieving something hard… If it did, it would be just like any other mmo.. That kind of system always creates huge gaps between people… The powerful get more and more power, while a casual solo players gets nothing no matter how much time (s)he puts into it.. So different level players can’t even play together.. Can’t you see the problem with this?..

Doing hard content, either speeds your progress up, or gives you cosmetic awards.. Thus no power gap occurs between people.. Skill-gap always exists and that is what makes a player different, not their stats.. That is the proper way of playing a game as far as i am concerned..

But i do think ascended level items should be available somehow via dungeon/WvW tokens..

Reymis.2158:

Celestial gear is fine without magic find. It is not like the reduction of it will cause you to do less damage or die more often in battle. I guess I don’t see the issue. I made Celestial gear on my guardian but only because the stats worked out to be slightly better then the ones I was wearing for my build.

By that logic:
Because MF has no impact whatsoever, all explorer gear can have their MF stat removed.. Leaving only 2 stats… And there’re no problems with that, it’s not like they would do less damage or die more often than before?

Really?.. Then why offer any compensation to anyone?..

I don’t think anyone thinks celestial is one of the more competent combat gear options, even for jack-of-all trades builds.. It just makes them playable.. The advantage of celestial (without mixing with other things) was Magic Find..

And on top of that, celestial gear is a lot harder to get than buying stuff off the TP..
No one can claim that this is fair… It is obvious… But it can be argued that “There’s no way to make it fair now, it has to be balanced later”… I do not share that opinion for myself…

And yes, i do like MF getting removed.. It was a horrible system… And no, i’m not using full celestial, i never would, even with all that MF.. Too much primary damage stat loss..

Levian.6742:

It’s strange, I can see the damage nerf pretty clearly, but I also found myself not getting killed as easily in the BWE’s, where now my level 15 ele can’t pull more than 2 enemies and survive.

That’s because enemy damage was a lot lower during one BWE.. I think it was BWE2.. It was a bug, and got fixed.. Since elementalist succumb to pressure easily, combined with their damage nerf and enemy damage fix… And to add some major bugs with some key skills (most important ones got fixed), stress tests were hell for elementalists… It was completelty unplayable during minor lag at that times.. It is now just above playable, but still terrible.. That’s what has changed..

Ohh come on.. Just roll a warrior/thief/mesmer (anything but an elementalist) already… When there are no elementalists left i’m sure somebody will notice.. Also all those troll warriors and thieves looking for a “healer” to back them up, wont even get an occasional regeneration on them.. Or other thieves/mesmers looking for a free kill in spvp won’t get it.. Do yourselves and everybody else a favor, and reroll…

Although i could solo 4-5 mobs in orr decently with my elementalist (which is a power crit based one) -and from the moment bwes launched, it was/is the only profession i do find “satisfying to play” – i know i switched weeks ago…

Because you know what, i hate my warrior it is sooo boring, but i can actually enjoy the game itself with it…. I’m not tired in 20 minutes, i’m not in a paranoid stressed out mood all the time, i’m not cursing at other players for not helping me or actually pulling up more mobs than i can handle, i’m not feeling useless, i’m not breaking my keyboard/mouse.. Well as a downside, i’m also not pretty anymore.. But more on the plus side, just with a little awareness, i can kill 10 mobs at my level with a warrior, i can tag every single mob in DEs that comes in waves of 15+15 (i can not do that with my awsome elementalist aoe spells you know, with long spell animations/mobs possibly coming after you and stuff)…. And although the warrior is insanely powerful compared to an elementalist, it still has annoying aspects (add insanely boring “again”, on top of that)

Of course i would be more helpful to my group if i was still playing an elementalist even in a pure dps spec, i am a better elementalist player than a warrior.. But who cares… Actually it seems nobody does, so why should i? And why should you..

Yes the profession is very enjoyable and challenging, yes if you want to play a caster that feels like a caster, there are no other choices.. But the game itself is really too good to make yourselves miserable by playing a broken profession.. Who broke it, should fix it, and until it gets fixed, enjoy something else….

And btw, what updates?.. Those are smallish-fixes… Nothing more.. After that i expect, bigger-fixes… After that i expect fixes-for-fixes… After that i expect some more tweaks to endgame related stuff (karma-influence gain- economy balance etc)… After that may be, may be it will come the time for a profession rebalancing.. And after that, balancing-the new balances… And after that may be it will be time to rework elementalists….. And after that may be it will be time to fix the “new” broken elementalist.. And after that …………. you get the picture…

That’s what it seems like IS going to happen from my perspective… Because no mmo company has un-nerfed a profession so soon after they have utterly destroyed it by over-nerfing it… Now they will probably have to find another way to buff the elementalist, and personally i do not see an easy way to do it… That’s why i think it will take a long time.. If this was going to be fixed the easy way (which would admittedly cause problems of its own: too much aoe damage anyone?), it would have been 2 weeks ago.. Hard way it is, it seems..

Any data that is collected from player vs player will be based on player skill level… The amount of data you have to collect to even out the deviation will be huge.. And there will be trolls there too, whose data will you trust?…

Instead collect statistical numerical data if you want to.. Open up a bunch of characters, equip them with same amulets/sigils etc in the mists, record your auto-attack dps / full on attack dps, heals… Compare character stats, buff stacking capabilities etc… If they are significantly lower… Well you have your definitive answer.. Since active defenses part can only be theorized under these cirumcstances, there’s a margin of error.. But that margin is a lot lower than what you’re proposing if you ask me…

And Anet can get all the numerical data they want themselves, if they want to.. I guess that’s what they were refering to as gathering data.. Every point of damage you deal to any mob or player can be recorded…They can event collect your client data like your cpu/gpu usage, fps etc… What they cannot collect, is situational bugs of skills, like ride the lightning problems etc.. And that’s the only kind of help they seem to appreciate..

I do have an idea of my own on how those numbers do look like…

And this profession was voted best polished of all classes more than once (together with warrior) during the bwes… And than damages got (un)balanced… Oh the irony.. So i guess it is the fault of us players too.. After all that burst capality is gone (which was not as powerful as todays OP 2 button burst builds,i can go as far as nothing was wrong at all with single target damage, it could be even higher.. but hey), nothing is left, we are all talking about how the fundamentals of the profession are wrong.. Which are not wrong at all in theory, just have important flaws in practice…

But i agree there should be something by now.. I was waiting for something to be addressed last week, but well… Time to move on to an alt..

That’s what i was going to say.. But i already figured-out the answer.. Support… Something i will never spec into.. There seems to be a stereotypical role emerging for this profession, which is not right at all…

In any typical fantasy world or mmorpg it is the offensive magic users that control the battlefield.. That is their primary job… They can destroy a single target quickly, and if they are left alone (not under pressure) they decimate the opposing force with aoe attacks.. But since they are flashy, they are primary targets for any enemy force.. Combined with their squisheness they are much more prone to being overwhelmed..

That’s what a magic user primarily is… The basic mechanics to support this type of playstyle already is built into the profession.. The problem is…. Well there are a lot of problems with the practical usage of these aspects…

I dont understand why people think an elementalist should not, and can not go toe to toe with an equally matched force.. Because they can and they should… Active defenses are supposed to be awsome against a small number of enemies.. Think of any fantasy world you can think of, one on one a ready magic user is really deadly… One that has been caught of guard is an easy kill.. One that is already battling with another opponent can and has to escape to save his/her life… 3vs1 you get a blown up mage in seconds.. That is the definition of a typical magic using glass-canon…

If we need a support character… We should be thinking of a guardian first.. Which is pretty silly because even for guardians their primary objective is not to support, it just comes naturally with their attacks and virtues.. Elementalist does not have that much multi-effect abilities, aside from a bunch of combo fields, so (s)he may really support if they choose to… So can a warrior.. The only difference is, a warrior has to spec for that whereas an elementalist can do a tiny amount of support on the fly (Which is generally just a small push to overcome the obstacle they are facing, not a sustained effort)… If an elementalist is built for only support, well that’s as great as a warrior built for support in my eyes… It’s just a choice you can make, but not many will choose to do so… It has its usefulness, where there’s a team bond, and a lot of communication..

Even as a full on support build, elementalist is useless..My personal opinion is: You cannot change battles with healing or buffing in this game.. Because the numbers you get are tiny, compared to offensive abilities.. By supporting you give your team an edge over others (that is you contribution).. Which could also be given as more offensive capabilities and field control..Since those are practically non-existant, it seems like elementalist is good for support roles only.. This is completely wrong though, and i do not believe for one second this is what the game-designers had in mind….

Well the video shows an almost healthy balance of what support/control/dmg ratio should be.. The problem is, the control and damage aspects are not as strong as they should be (even though mostly those aspects are used).. That’s why there’s no wow-factor even in a great elementalist video… And there are those, who would only emphasize the damage or control aspect, and it is their right to demand to do so, since it is an option for all the professions that are out there… And also that is what this game is all about..

What i see here is a very very good player.. Nobody on that battlefield reacts as quickly and decisively as you are.. Simply nobody else really is always on the move while still casting complicated stuff (With emphasis on being a hard target to hit)… But the elementalist is not changing the battles still.. She’s just another player on the field in terms of affecting the outcome…

Yet a similarly quick warrior can destroy groups of people and change the battle with similarly clever play-style…

Most people here are not saying elementalists are unplayable.. It is playable, and when played optimally it is just as effective as any other average joe playing another profession… But this means: it is subpar…

And this build/playstyle is one of the optimal ones.. Scepter (with being mediocre at eveything, but able to do everything an elementalist can possibly do with some support/dmg/cc) is optimal if you want to use every aspect of the profession… Conditions simply melt the elementalist and you have taken care of that.. Vs direct damage you simply keep mobile by your own timing/fast reaction skills… You rarely go solo, which would exhaust your defensive options quickly, instead you use your less mobile companion as bait, by being a harder target than him/her..

So the choices are more than ok… But i don’t see the “what the hell is she/he doing, this is great” outcome, which is the case with other skilled players doing all the right things with their non-elementalist professions… The outcome should be better than this is most people here are saying…

And when you consider less-skilled people trying to emphasize some aspect of the elementalist instead of trying to cover its obvious weaknesses.. You get an unplayable profession… Which is not the case with half-of the other professions (I cannot think of warrior build that i cannot possibly do anything useful with).. The other half has less unplayable builds than elementalist..

I say 3..

Traits need a lot of work , they should either promote sticking to one attunement and make it significantly more beneficial to stay in it or, promote swapping more by adding bonuses to all attunements, wheter you are or not in the trait related attunement… (Or perhaps support both choices.. But that would be too hard to implement with a fixed number of trait options i think)

Damage needs to be balanced, especially air attunement damages are.. Well everybody knows what they are… Single target damage should be a lot higher than aoe dmg.. But other attunements are lacking in both burst and sustained dps, too.. Fire attunement/aoe probably needs less drastic changes, along with earth condition damage though..

Condition/direct dmg build seperation should be clearer i think.. Especially scepter skills are in the grey area.. Both condition dmg and power are useful but neither of them make any attunement (other than earth) shine.. (Might be because of terrible air damages, which would make it direct-damage-based priority attunement)

Elite skills are interesting, change the pace of play ..That’s ok.. But they are not very useful.. And that’s not ok… There should be a boring alternative which would buff you somehow significantly without changing your gameplay (which in turn would be useful always)

There is a desperate need for survival options.. (Surviving means surviving, not prolonging the fight without affecting the outcome.. If you look like you’re going to die, and after all the effort you’ve put in, if you’re still in the same position at which you have started, you haven’t really survived)… That could be achieved with two possible options i think.. One is making the CCs more effective (longer durations) to give the elementalist a chance to go on the offensive once more… Or changing CCs to have an offensive component together with their defensive components.. Both options serve the purpose of prolonging the fight to be more beneficial than they are now.. Because now, if you’re in bad shape (which you will be , if there’s nobody standing between you and the opponent) your most efficient usage of your “escapes” is to escape.. You cannot turn the battle to your advantage in any way, because you simply do not have enough time to react in between your CCs.. Nothing is bringing you back to the fight besides the regeneration of water attunement (which is not bad, but not enough to bring you back, unless you’re support of course, in which case there IS somebody between you and your opponent, and this situation does not apply to you)

Being locked into one range brings many problems with it.. Dagger/scepter/staff choices are not close calls.. Dagger advantages does not justify the risks, Scepter suffers from being good at nothing (Except stacking might.. If you can), Staff is useful when you’re in a group with more than 2-3 other people, below that number you exhaust your offensive and defensive options very very fast.. So for situationally you need them all, but you loose a lot by your choice than what you gain… Other than staff elementalists no other choice excels in one thing (There are other professions, that can fill your shoes better).. Staff elementalists excel at aoe-anything if you don’t know… But aoe dmg-support as an elementalist is good, IF you’re not targeted, and IF there’s more than one target to dmg-support.. That’s why any type of elementalist is great only at WvWvW keep/tower defense.. But i have no idea how this can be solved.. Making dagger elementalist hit like truck, would cripple sPvP.. Making them thougher would be great but how this can be achieved with limited amount of traits (and opening up the possibility of durable aoe-dmgers) i have no idea… Making scepter more dependant on direct dmg or condition dmg would destroy one range option of either dmg type using elementalists…. So this part seems hard to figure out..

Well.. So a lot of things are out of whack if you ask me.. Except from air damage, none of them are ground-breaking modifications… But the total number of game aspects to sort out is a lot…