Guild Wars 2

Look, I dont mind a 10k dragon tooth hitting me. If you fail to see a squishy ele coming a mile away, cast a long casting skill, not see a long winding skill and then hit by a static skill with a giant red circle then it is your own fault.

I dont mind getting hit with an evicerate because if you cant see a warrior with a hatchet coming at you, casting a skill that leaps into you and then dodge it then it is your fault.

What I cant stand is being fighting a 2v2 or 3v3, doing perfectly fine, dodging all AoEs, doing my job perfectly, having great awareness, then all of the sudden my health spikes down to 0. Backstab from stealth shouldnt be so powerful. There is absolutely NO COUNTERPLAY. You cant dodge, you cant block, you cant blind, you cant see it, and even if you know it is coming, there is absolutely nothing you can do by surviving one because 4 seconds later the second one is coming, for sure

Backstab needs its damage scaled down, by a LOT. Period. If you want people to have a good time in PvP, stop cattering to skilless strategies such as spam-from-stealth-nukes-till-you-win-or-run-away-if-they-attack-back.

Please Anet, this is getting out of hands.

Sincerely, a tired PvP costumer.

edit : at the time I was fighting a guardian, no vulnerability stacks, he was constatntly hitting 12-13k backstabs through the entire game.

EDIT #2 : Screenshot taken April 15, AFTER the patch.

That backstab was more around 16-17k since he used steal which puts you directly behind your target.

I am not sure why it hit so high, I’ve never seen it that high before. He must have had a few might stacks.

Your build/class? Vulnerability stacked on you? Might stacks on thief? Thief build? While it sucks that you died, I’m assuming this thief is a tissue and would die quite easily as well. This was probably just a rare perfect situation for the thief. As far as counter play – it does exist. Map awareness, blind, block, invulnerability, protection, etc.

Maybe because he used frenzy? I find it odd that we know nothing about what the OP’s class is because if he used frenzy it would make perfect sense.

I didn’t care enough to look at the screenshot more than a second though, so maybe I missed something.

fight on the point, man!

Just the perfect scenario lining up.

Glass cannon meets glass cannon. Vuln, Might, whatever are in play. Big hit occurs.

Some more details on the buffs and conditions and OP’s toughness would be nice.

Couldnt target him at the moment it happened so I couldnt see the might stacks, but he was constatnly using dagger/pistol smoke to disappear into stealth. Constatnly hitting 11-13k bacstabs

Im sorry, but a thief is not defined as tissue paper. Want to know what true tissue paper is? An ele with no stealth to disappear into. Thieves have low hp yes, but by no mean they are the easiest to kill class in the game, in fact, I would dare to say a well played thief is nearly virtually impossible to kill with the access to blinds/teleports/stealth.

All I want is an equal chance to retaliate vs them, and less upfront damage and more over-time damage. Right now a backstab has literally no counterplay other than hope you can run faster than a thief with multiple teleports. That is not fun, that is not counterplay, that is no skill.

He must be glass as can be using signets.

I think I hit 7k on squishes with a trickery d/p build

Yea, I have been 1-shot by thieves when I played glass fresh-air ele too. I believe it is the same 1-shot build AK used back in the day when he got accused of macro-ing (might-stacking, 3x signet build).

This build OWNS every other glass class easily (can 1-shot them, especially with air/fire and mug), but is ultra-squishy and can’t do much if it misses its 1-shot. Its basically the same as 2x arcane + LF fresh-air, zerk ele, except with the ability to stealth. Luckily, its really week to tankier specs and other thieves (who have more get-out-jail-free cards).

Fortus.6175:

Later on that same thief hit me with 11k backstab and another 12k, both times with no vulnerability stack, couldnt target him at the moment it happened so I couldnt see the might stacks, but he was constatnly using dagger/pistol smoke to disappear into stealth.

Im sorry, but a thief is not defined as tissue paper. Want to know what true tissue paper is? An ele with no stealth to disappear into. Thieves have low hp yes, but by no mean they are the easiest to kill class in the game, in fact, I would dare to say a well played thief is nearly virtually impossible to kill with the access to blinds/teleports/stealth.

All I want is an equal chance to retaliate vs them, and less upfront damage and more over-time damage. Right now a backstab has literally no counterplay other than hope you can run faster than a thief with multiple teleports. That is not fun, that is not counterplay, that is no skill.

You gotta swim in your AoEs, man. Otherwise, there are lots of builds/classes that just straight trump other ones. Switch to some defensive utilities if you can anticipate a thief is around.

Honestly, your best bet would be to roll a thief. People that complain about thief only have the perspective of the times they were owned by them. They never mention the scrub thieves that they drop without an issue.

Play a thief and get wrecked just as often as you drop people and it may alter your narrow worldview. Doing 12k dmg is nice but you will also have to manage the effects of having only 11k HP.

Hehehe, as an Engineer, I just do a happy dance every time I fight a Thief. They’re by far my easiest class to defeat.

Thief does not have strong condi removal…at all! Hide in Shadows is usually all they bring. If you can get 3-4 condis on a Thief, he’ll be down in no time. Also, as an Ele, bait him in if you use dagger. If you’re staff, drop everything on your feet and wait.

If he comes in where you’re already fighting a couple dudes, you’ve just been powerplayed. Inaccurate rotations are what cause that, no amount of class balance (or imbalance) will protect someone from a 3v5, 2v4, or 1v3.

Probably both full glass, thief popped attack signet for bonus damage, got 10ish stacks of might from sitting in shadow refuge, since that guard got you low first the thief then got the executioner 20% then crit you out of stealth with the backstab bonus and like fire sigil.

The counterplay is dont build glass when playing ele. You can be soo hard to kill now with fairly high damage now. Use stun aura shield after he hits you out of stealth. then start dpsing once gets stunned, also if he is glass jsut spam aoes around and he might even die.

No offense OP but I’ve been running ele and destroying thieves (except the good ones it’s about 50/50 unless they are like Caed level good which makes it closer to 40/60) so I honestly do think it’s a l2p here. I run d/d and if you know the attacks coming dodge (count seconds in stealth to time it), shocking aura, earth 4, etc. heck, I can eat the backstab then swap to water and top myself off. This is likely a gimmick thief build with might stacking and all you need to do is dodge it then drop him in seconds. Working as intended IMO…

Scrambles.2604:

You gotta swim in your AoEs, man. Otherwise, there are lots of builds/classes that just straight trump other ones. Switch to some defensive utilities if you can anticipate a thief is around.

.

This is probably the most pathetic excuse I have keep hearing since day one on stealth “waste your CDs, man, wave your non-melee weapon around hoping that the thief is bad enough to stand on them or even walk towards them! Remember, all thieves are mentally handicapped and will literally walk into the your long CD AoEs, I guarantee it”

Im sorry, but no. I have played thieves myself, I KNOW how unfair they are, I know their CD, I know their tricks (most of them), I know their weakness. When I play thieves, I dont get hit by AoEs bcause I dont walk in a straight line where i stealthed, I dont get hit by melee weapons because I only close in when Im ready to attack, not walk around them as they swing the sword. Ranged weapons cant afford to 111111 around.

Sorry, I want true counterplay; time to retaliate, a skill that does so much damage should give the defender an equal opportunity to inflict just as much. I want to be able to dodge it, I want to be able to block it, I want to be able to blind it. I want their dmaage to not be upfronted by more 30% upfronted and 70% sustained. Right now it is 90% upfronted, 10% HS/blind into stealth and repeat.

Once again, you cant call this a game of skills if all there is for a defender is walking around aimlessly waving their sword like a retartd hoping to get lucky. You want to have e-sport attention? Start adding skillful decisions.

Chaotic.9742:

No offense OP but I’ve been running ele and destroying thieves (except the good ones it’s about 50/50 unless they are like Caed level good which makes it closer to 40/60) so I honestly do think it’s a l2p here. I run d/d and if you know the attacks coming dodge (count seconds in stealth to time it), shocking aura, earth 4, etc. heck, I can eat the backstab then swap to water and top myself off. This is likely a gimmick thief build with might stacking and all you need to do is dodge it then drop him in seconds. Working as intended IMO…

I would sure like to see some of this game play in action. Have any videos? Not just highlights if you do please.

Fortus.6175:

Scrambles.2604:

You gotta swim in your AoEs, man. Otherwise, there are lots of builds/classes that just straight trump other ones. Switch to some defensive utilities if you can anticipate a thief is around.

.

This is probably the most pathetic excuse I have keep hearing since day one on stealth “waste your CDs, man, wave your non-melee weapon around hoping that the thief is bad enough to stand on them or even walk towards them! Remember, all thieves are mentally handicapped and will literally walk into the your long CD AoEs, I guarantee it”

Im sorry, but no. I have played thieves myself, I KNOW how unfair they are, I know their CD, I know their tricks (most of them), I know their weakness. When I play thieves, I dont get hit by AoEs bcause I dont walk in a straight line where i stealthed, I dont get hit by melee weapons because I only close in when Im ready to attack, not walk around them as they swing the sword. Ranged weapons cant afford to 111111 around.

Sorry, I want true counterplay; time to retaliate, a skill that does so much damage should give the defender an equal opportunity to inflict just as much. I want to be able to dodge it, I want to be able to block it, I want to be able to blind it. I want their dmaage to not be upfronted by more 30% upfronted and 70% sustained. Right now it is 90% upfronted, 10% HS/blind into stealth and repeat.

Once again, you cant call this a game of skills if all there is for a defender is walking around aimlessly waving their sword like a retartd hoping to get lucky. You want to have e-sport attention? Start adding skillful decisions.

Waste a cooldown? If you’re not using your abilities on enemies what are you using them for? An AOE doesn’t have to hit them, area denial is very useful.

I dunno why i’m trying i think you just want to complain not seek advice. Classic Fortus!

Chaotic.9742:

No offense OP but I’ve been running ele and destroying thieves (except the good ones it’s about 50/50 unless they are like Caed level good which makes it closer to 40/60) so I honestly do think it’s a l2p here. I run d/d and if you know the attacks coming dodge (count seconds in stealth to time it), shocking aura, earth 4, etc. heck, I can eat the backstab then swap to water and top myself off. This is likely a gimmick thief build with might stacking and all you need to do is dodge it then drop him in seconds. Working as intended IMO…

Look, Choatic, there are several kind of players, Im sorry I dont live up to YOUR standards, Im sorry im not Caed or you or some other selfproclaimed or community proclaimed pro player. This game is composed of several layers, and you cant simply balance the game around top 1%, because at the end of the day all you will have left is that 1%.

I hate to do these kind of reference but take WoW and LoL. I reached 2.2k rating in WoW. Perhaps not the best out there, but I was one of the top scorer. For my skill, the game was balanced, for lower skill gamers, the game was still balanced, for high skill it was still balanced. Now LoL. The game had toxic skills and champions. As it stands now, it has both balance for low and high skills. It has eport attention becasue both community can relate.

I might not be a pro, but I understand my class, I can defend myself against thieves that I know are there. I have won vs thieves too, however, this isnt about constantly being losing to one, this is about toxic skills. Backstab, as iot stands now, might not even win you most fights, however, it is extremely toxic for both unskilled and skilled players.

I’ve got my pride but I admit Im not the best player out there, sorry, but if yo want to keep me and mny other people (who have left because of this very same reason; thieves) then the game has to have some global balance, not some elite balance. Just my view, anyways, im off to work, I need to burn my anger on some paper. All I want is some chance for everyone to have fun, not just the stealth spammers backstabbing bastarrds

@ Scramble, i believe that was a personal attack yet I will let it slide for the sake of civilized arguments. Waste CDs are the ones you use without being able to confirm whether they were effective. Believe it or not, some classes dont have initiate that regenerates almost without notice. I hope you keep it civilized here and provide with true countermeasures rather than subjective “keep it in the air, man! Just spam it all, something has got to hit, hopefully” Luck =/= skill.

If anything needs toned down, it’s their axes steal from warriors… it’s better than our own axe skill… lol.

Fortus.6175:

@ Scramble, i believe that was a personal attack yet I will let it slide for the sake of civilized arguments. Waste CDs are the ones you use without being able to confirm whether they were effective. Believe it or not, some classes dont have initiate that regenerates almost without notice. I hope you keep it civilized here and provide with true countermeasures rather than subjective “keep it in the air, man! Just spam it all, something has got to hit, hopefully” Luck =/= skill.

if it makes you feel better, i didn’t discover the d/d might on signet build until you posted a complaint thread about it. I’ve been running it and enjoying it ever since

The stars aligned for that 13k. Usually a thief is lucky to see a 7k backstab crit in pvp.

@pyriall
No I don’t have videos as my i5 can barely handle the game let alone recording. And as I said vs him he definitely had the upper hand as I’m getting back into ele but I did win some of em. It was probably winning about 3-4/10. If you know of any low requirement (free) video capture programs PM me n I can see if they work – assuming this was serious. Can’t tell if sarcasm haha.

@fortus
I sure as heck don’t fall into that “self proclaimed pro” category if you even knew me haha. I’m pretty humble and just play to get good and enjoy the game. Sure I think I’m decent/above average, but I don’t think I’m “pro” especially when it comes to ele since I play bunker guard as my main. And I’m not saying you don’t know your class or anything either. You said it’s a toxic skill, I don’t think it is for the reasons I gave as ways to counter the burst/deal with it. And if you can handle thieves too that’s great, it just sounds like map awareness of seeing that thief come +1 your fight and gib you then. Not sure why people post rage threads then rage at constructive criticism…

Chaotic.9742:

No offense OP but I’ve been running ele and destroying thieves (except the good ones it’s about 50/50 unless they are like Caed level good which makes it closer to 40/60) so I honestly do think it’s a l2p here. I run d/d and if you know the attacks coming dodge (count seconds in stealth to time it), shocking aura, earth 4, etc. heck, I can eat the backstab then swap to water and top myself off. This is likely a gimmick thief build with might stacking and all you need to do is dodge it then drop him in seconds. Working as intended IMO…

Erm, really no way you look at is a 1 shot from stealth a “L2P” issue… The fact of the matter is, while thieves may be squishy, numbers in this game both sustain, burst, condies AND healing are growing out of control. They nerfed some of this stuff a LONG time ago, but we’re right back on track for a power creep. TTK needs to go back up because insta-gibs are not skillful or fun. While, yes, if they nerf burst and damage across the board, they need to do the same with healing so people don’t become immortal bunkers, it still needs to be done. TTK is too short, and sustain for healing is too high if you don’t have the burst. That’s how these power creep races work… You end up with a ruined game full of 1 shot builds or immortal tanks.

thief with new power trait, something like 30/30/0/0/10 with might on signet use + 250 power from sigil + 15%dmg after use power signet. with fire and air sigils? 13k on glass cannon? easy. I think he can reach 15-17k bs to glass ele.

This just in: thieves win against elementalists 99% of the time

Thieves are built to take you out like that. A different class you might need to play or a different spec as to not get spiked down so hard.

I do agree backstab is to powerful and I play a thief from time to time. I mainly play a Guardian and with tons of toughness I still get blasted to zero health sometimes by a thief. This move should not be so devastating to a heavy armored class as it is. Not sure if a nerf is the right call but some sort of balance has to be implemented to fix it. Last night in all queues there where so many thief’s running around back stabbing and ignoring points that matches where awful. Not to mention most of the thief’s would all be on one team instead of balanced like it should be.

ronpierce.2760:

Chaotic.9742:

No offense OP but I’ve been running ele and destroying thieves (except the good ones it’s about 50/50 unless they are like Caed level good which makes it closer to 40/60) so I honestly do think it’s a l2p here. I run d/d and if you know the attacks coming dodge (count seconds in stealth to time it), shocking aura, earth 4, etc. heck, I can eat the backstab then swap to water and top myself off. This is likely a gimmick thief build with might stacking and all you need to do is dodge it then drop him in seconds. Working as intended IMO…

Erm, really no way you look at is a 1 shot from stealth a “L2P” issue… The fact of the matter is, while thieves may be squishy, numbers in this game both sustain, burst, condies AND healing are growing out of control. They nerfed some of this stuff a LONG time ago, but we’re right back on track for a power creep. TTK needs to go back up because insta-gibs are not skillful or fun. While, yes, if they nerf burst and damage across the board, they need to do the same with healing so people don’t become immortal bunkers, it still needs to be done. TTK is too short, and sustain for healing is too high if you don’t have the burst. That’s how these power creep races work… You end up with a ruined game full of 1 shot builds or immortal tanks.

this is why they give you downed state and balance the game around teamplay. You get one shotted, so its on your teammates to either help you or drop the glass cannon thief and all is well.

If backstabs bothered me enough to create threads about it, i would like to imagine i would also build my character specifically to avoid getting one shotted. I know the risks of building glassy so i don’t make a thread everytime i get one shotted.

Ugh.. don’t even get me started on downed state.

Based on his screenshot he was playing his Mesmer, not his Ele. Just saying, for all those that keep giving Ele advice.

I find it funny that back in alpha Anet was like “yeah we hate stealth insta-gibs, that is why we are calling the class the thief, not the assassin, because we do not want it to play like a traditional assassin”
LOL

How do I ‘get the stars to align’ to do 14k with one hit with my Ele?(Who has no invisibility mechanic and less armor). Oh that’s right, I can’t.

Lol did they really say that…? They were WAY off point with that… Thieves are more assassiny in this game than most assassins are in other games…

Vash Past.4385:

How do I ‘get the stars to align’ to do 14k with one hit with my Ele?(Who has no invisibility mechanic and less armor). Oh that’s right, I can’t.

Let’s keep in mind that a thief caught out of stealth is a dead thief. And no you can’t get that in one hit, but you can get that by rapidly chaining together high damage attacks. And your class doesn’t get stealth due to the survival tools already available to you.

With that aside, such a high damage skill coming out of stealth is a bit unbalanced. But again, with how squishy thieves are outside of stealth, they kinda have to rely on cheap shots from stealth. Bit of a tricky balance issue.

Vash Past.4385:

How do I ‘get the stars to align’ to do 14k with one hit with my Ele?(Who has no invisibility mechanic and less armor). Oh that’s right, I can’t.

Firegrab and strength runes say hi

Vash Past.4385:

How do I ‘get the stars to align’ to do 14k with one hit with my Ele?(Who has no invisibility mechanic and less armor). Oh that’s right, I can’t.

phoenix+electric discharge+arcane wave,blast+fire/air sigils+lightning flash+air2 scepter +rtl= 20-25k in 1sec.

For those that don’t know, channeled attacks also continue to channel and deal damage even through stealth and in most cases LoS.

Chaotic.9742:

@pyriall
No I don’t have videos as my i5 can barely handle the game let alone recording. And as I said vs him he definitely had the upper hand as I’m getting back into ele but I did win some of em. It was probably winning about 3-4/10. If you know of any low requirement (free) video capture programs PM me n I can see if they work – assuming this was serious. Can’t tell if sarcasm haha.

@fortus
I sure as heck don’t fall into that “self proclaimed pro” category if you even knew me haha. I’m pretty humble and just play to get good and enjoy the game. Sure I think I’m decent/above average, but I don’t think I’m “pro” especially when it comes to ele since I play bunker guard as my main. And I’m not saying you don’t know your class or anything either. You said it’s a toxic skill, I don’t think it is for the reasons I gave as ways to counter the burst/deal with it. And if you can handle thieves too that’s great, it just sounds like map awareness of seeing that thief come +1 your fight and gib you then. Not sure why people post rage threads then rage at constructive criticism…

Wasn’t sarcasm. I really want to see how you play against thieves.

Pyriall.5027:

Chaotic.9742:

@pyriall
No I don’t have videos as my i5 can barely handle the game let alone recording. And as I said vs him he definitely had the upper hand as I’m getting back into ele but I did win some of em. It was probably winning about 3-4/10. If you know of any low requirement (free) video capture programs PM me n I can see if they work – assuming this was serious. Can’t tell if sarcasm haha.

@fortus
I sure as heck don’t fall into that “self proclaimed pro” category if you even knew me haha. I’m pretty humble and just play to get good and enjoy the game. Sure I think I’m decent/above average, but I don’t think I’m “pro” especially when it comes to ele since I play bunker guard as my main. And I’m not saying you don’t know your class or anything either. You said it’s a toxic skill, I don’t think it is for the reasons I gave as ways to counter the burst/deal with it. And if you can handle thieves too that’s great, it just sounds like map awareness of seeing that thief come +1 your fight and gib you then. Not sure why people post rage threads then rage at constructive criticism…

Wasn’t sarcasm. I really want to see how you play against thieves.

Alright, I’ll see what I can manage when I’m done with classes for the day.

Alex.9268:

Vash Past.4385:

How do I ‘get the stars to align’ to do 14k with one hit with my Ele?(Who has no invisibility mechanic and less armor). Oh that’s right, I can’t.

Firegrab and strength runes say hi

Hitting frigrab in spvp, good luck with that, it’s like they give 2 steps to the side and that crap misses, and you can see the ele coming a mile away. 14k firegrab? I wish

Agreed with OP. Such high, unavoidable, no risk damage should not be in game. And yes it is unavoidable in most scenarios you’re on point either guarding or fighting then you lose 50-100% hp depending on class and build which puts you instantly in defensive else you die in following few seconds – which you will anyways in many cases. it is unavoidable because you can’t possibly see it coming invisible/steal from around the corner. You can’t dodge or block or blind something that you don’t know that is there or where it is.

Some argue that it’s alright because you can’t cap points in stealth… well guess what you don’t need to be in stealth if enemy on point is dead

OneManArmy.9732:

Vash Past.4385:

How do I ‘get the stars to align’ to do 14k with one hit with my Ele?(Who has no invisibility mechanic and less armor). Oh that’s right, I can’t.

phoenix+electric discharge+arcane wave,blast+fire/air sigils+lightning flash+air2 scepter +rtl= 20-25k in 1sec.

Ele with such setup WILL die to first backstab or be so low that wont survive long enough to get the combo off

So we have a glass cannon complaining that another glass cannon hit him too hard?

That thief was doing his job. He was picking the squishiest target he seen and annihilating it as fast as possible. Exactly what you would have been doing if there wasn’t a thief there to do it to you first.

I like how zerker Hambows will scream that their build isn’t cheese and people should just use stability. And zerker shield bash + 100b players will defend themselves saying players should just have stun breakers. Well, the thieves think you guys should just have some toughness.

The mindset that one min/maxed build should be balanced against another min/maxed build is what is toxic. Against someone in PvT or toughness traited, Backstab is a good payoff for the investment but not spectacular. Against zerker specs it gets incredible returns for the investment, as it should. If you balance damage with the assumption a player has base toughness, then someone that min/maxes toughness would be practically indestructible.

The thief’s place in PvP is to keep everyone honest (slight irony there). If you throw caution to the wind and run purely offensive, then a thief is going to tag you for it. If a thief comes after you and doesn’t see their sucker numbers, then they will generally leave you alone and find another target. That’s the reason people that get ganked by a bs or pw thief get hit over and over again in the same match. Its because they are the sucker with no toughness.

tl;dr, try to be a glass cannon, then the natural glass cannon profession is going to sniff you out and punish you for it. If you want to be invisible to thief-dar, take some toughness.

Saying it’s a glass cannon complaining about another glass cannon is missing the point.

The point is: insta-gib from stealth is toxic. It’s the same thing for fresh air ele, although you can at least see the ele coming. 13k backstab from stealth is toxic. A thief is not a normal glass cannon. It’s a glass cannon with constant access to stealth and teleport. It has way too much advantage.

I won’t argue that stealth isn’t broken because it is but overall thieves really aren’t that great. The reason why thieves have to rely on these cheap tactics is because it’s the only way they can accomplish anything. Remove it from them and you pretty much destroy the entire class.

Is it a poorly designed class then? Yes, I’d argue so. That said, until ArenaNet gets around to remaking thieves I can’t help but think that any drastical nerfs to them would be uncalled for. I get that it’s frustrating and unfair and I’m definitely not trying to play the role of thief apologist here but after trying their other options myself I fully understand why they rely on this cheese.

Thieves, who want to do 13k dmg with BS in pvp, must play a fullzerkerbuild and need 20 might stacks. When they do this, then is this a “all or nothing” maneuver, die or dodge and kill them.

PS: A complete useless traitline, and very many broken coremechanics are toxic too, but nobody cares about it.

Black Teagan.9215:

Thieves, who want to do 13k dmg with BS in pvp, must play a fullzerkerbuild and need 20 might stacks. When they do this, then is this a “all or nothing” maneuver, die or dodge and kill them.

PS: A complete useless traitline, and very many broken coremechanics are toxic too, but nobody cares about it.

No, it’s not all or nothing. The thief have plenty of initiatives left to stealth, teleport away. It’s only for glass fresh air ele that it’s real all or nothing. After the burst, the glass ele skills are mostly on 40 seconds cool down, and mostly useless, while after stealth + backstab, the thief still have plenty of options open.

Again, thief is not an ordinary glass cannon. It has way too much advantage. Insta gib from stealth is toxic.

Sunshine.5014:

Saying it’s a glass cannon complaining about another glass cannon is missing the point.

The point is: insta-gib from stealth is toxic. It’s the same thing for fresh air ele, although you can at least see the ele coming. 13k backstab from stealth is toxic. A thief is not a normal glass cannon. It’s a glass cannon with constant access to stealth and teleport. It has way too much advantage.

It’s not missing the point. It is the point. 13k damage isn’t flat across the board. The attack does not ignore armor or protection.

It only exists because the target was also built as a glass cannon and had insufficient burst protection.

• You think 13k backstab is a problem?
  yes
• Do all backstabs hit for 13K+ ?
  no
• Why does it hit you for 13k+ ?
  low toughness
• If you spec conservatively into toughness does it still hit you for 13k?
  no
• Is 13k backstab still a problem?
  no
• Were your choices enabling 13k backstabs to be a possibility?
  yes

Thieves punish and counter-play pure damage or burst based builds. If you didn’t play one of those builds then the thing you claim is toxic wouldn’t exist. Essentially, players are just mad another player is doing to them what they intentionally built to do to other people.

Nutshel.7264:

OneManArmy.9732:

Vash Past.4385:

How do I ‘get the stars to align’ to do 14k with one hit with my Ele?(Who has no invisibility mechanic and less armor). Oh that’s right, I can’t.

phoenix+electric discharge+arcane wave,blast+fire/air sigils+lightning flash+air2 scepter +rtl= 20-25k in 1sec.

Ele with such setup WILL die to first backstab or be so low that wont survive long enough to get the combo off

well ,we was talking about dmg, not survive. i dont say that you will tankface, i just said that you can reach more dmg than thief

phoenix+electric discharge+arcane wave,blast+fire/air sigils+lightning flash+air2 scepter +rtl= 20-25k in 1sec.

Bro I don’t know if it’s reading or counting that’s hard for you, but that’s at least 6 skills/button presses, by any account…. and my usual favorite, something along the lines of
“A thief caught out of stealth is a dead thief” – you mean like how an ele caught out of stealth(all the time, since we don’t stealth) is a dead ele? Aaaand because you’re sooo squishy, stuff your Medium armor class? You literally have it so easy you don’t even realize what squishy means. Lol

Vash Past.4385:

“A thief caught out of stealth is a dead thief” – you mean like how an ele caught out of stealth(all the time, since we don’t stealth) is a dead ele? Aaaand because you’re sooo squishy, stuff your Medium armor class? You literally have it so easy you don’t even realize what squishy means. Lol

This is entirely off topic, and I’m not sure you want to get into all of the ele defensive weapon and utility skills, heals, immunities and cleanses.

If you are talking about purely glass vs glass instead of overall survivability, thieves have no sustainable 1200, 900+ range burst and are required to get in 600 range of the target for medium to high damage. Eles don’t.

If your point is that an ele doesn’t have as reliable and as efficient high damage burst against low toughness characters, you are right. That is supposed to be the thieves niche. If every profession had the ability to do everything as well as every other profession, then why have professions to begin with?

You are comparing apples and oranges and the apples ability to be as orange like as possible.

Fungalfoot.7213:

I won’t argue that stealth isn’t broken because it is but overall thieves really aren’t that great. The reason why thieves have to rely on these cheap tactics is because it’s the only way they can accomplish anything. Remove it from them and you pretty much destroy the entire class.

Is it a poorly designed class then? Yes, I’d argue so. That said, until ArenaNet gets around to remaking thieves I can’t help but think that any drastical nerfs to them would be uncalled for. I get that it’s frustrating and unfair and I’m definitely not trying to play the role of thief apologist here but after trying their other options myself I fully understand why they rely on this cheese.

Thanks for your understanding! I also agree with you that it’s broken, and if we nerf it without compensation, it sucks for thieves. Thieves are forced to play burst because their sustaining options aren’t that good. There are a few options to tone down the toxic insta gib from stealth:

1) reduce the damage, but add a minor cc condition to it, for example Cripple.
2) reduce the damage, but make it regenerate 2 initiatives on hit
3) reduce the damage greatly, and add multiple stacks of bleeding instead.

The point is to make it much less likely to use the cheap tactics of insta-gib from stealth.