Guild Wars 2

AcidicVision.5498:

It only exists because the target was also built as a glass cannon and had insufficient burst protection.

• You think 13k backstab is a problem?
  yes
• Do all backstabs hit for 13K+ ?
  no
• Why does it hit you for 13k+ ?
  low toughness
• If you spec conservatively into toughness does it still hit you for 13k?
  no
• Is 13k backstab still a problem?
  no
• Were your choices enabling 13k backstabs to be a possibility?
  yes

Thieves punish and counter-play pure damage or burst based builds. If you didn’t play one of those builds then the thing you claim is toxic wouldn’t exist. Essentially, players are just mad another player is doing to them what they intentionally built to do to other people.

I can do that too

• You think 13k backstab is a problem?
  yes
• Does stacking toughness solve backstab problem?
  no
• Can your class kill anybody if toughness is stacked?
  no
• Is your class tanky enough to to bunker point if toughness is stacked?
  no
• Does stacking toughness help you kill thief in long run?
  no, you will still eat 30%-60% hp hit while not being able to deal any damage

Now when it comes to thief, they can go full zerker, no toughness but they will still have survivability similar or greater(depends on class) due to high amount of stealth and disengage abilities, sure they can’t cap points like that… but then again if they jump into fight and kill somebody instantly with their unavoidable attacks then they don’t need to disengage or go invis.

“Thieves punish and counter-play pure damage or burst based builds.”
More like are hard counter to high burst classes/build without having counter to themselves. Maintaining higher burst and higher survivability and not suffering problems other classes do all that with same/similar stat/trait investment.

AcidicVision.5498:

Vash Past.4385:

“A thief caught out of stealth is a dead thief” – you mean like how an ele caught out of stealth(all the time, since we don’t stealth) is a dead ele? Aaaand because you’re sooo squishy, stuff your Medium armor class? You literally have it so easy you don’t even realize what squishy means. Lol

This is entirely off topic, and I’m not sure you want to get into all of the ele defensive weapon and utility skills, heals, immunities and cleanses.

Tell me all the great ele defensive weapon/utility skills/heals/immunities/cleanses they have when they go full glass cannon. Thief has way more innate advantage with stealth/teleport and medium armor. On top of that, they have access to the most toxic play style, insta-gib from stealth.

AcidicVision.5498:

If you are talking about purely glass vs glass instead of overall survivability, thieves have no sustainable 1200, 900+ range burst and are required to get in 600 range of the target for medium to high damage. Eles don’t.

Actually they do. Firegrab is melee skill, fire nova is melee skill, phoenix has very slow travel time etc. And eles like all othe glass cannon classes (maybe a bit more but this is just a part of traditional ele’s suckness) need to get initiative in fight, need to chain a lot of spells (allowing counterplay) for burst and need to defend themselves between bursts. For some kind of d/p thief it is easy: 5-2-1. 5-target is still alive?-2, else f. GG NO RE K THX.
That’s exactly a problem with “glass cannon” thieves, they aren’t really glass due to uncounterable, dumb, overpowered defensive mechanics.

@Nutshell, i’m not going to respond to that because there are so many holes in it that I won’t need to. The narrowness of your mind-set was given away with…

“Can your class kill anybody if toughness is stacked? no”

@Sunshine, if you read the rest of the post I was talking about the base classes themselves. Eles have more in the way of weapon/utility defensive options, self and party heals, immunity, and condition cleansing than thieves do. For sustained range damage they have more options.

The last bit of my post I acknowledge that glass eles aren’t as effective because they are squish.

Which goes back to what I have been saying this entire time. The thief is there to punish glass builds, both from other professions and thieves. The more defensive a player is, the less effective thieves are. The damage a thief does is inversely proportional to your character’s toughness. If you have a problem with the damage you are taking from a thief’s largest possible burst, it’s a problem you created for yourself with your trait and gear choice.

I am trying to be helpful. You can keep QQing on the forums, which will get you pretty much no where. If it does go somewhere, you won’t see the change for months. And when it does come, it won’t be what you expected. OR you could just modify your build to not be gankable because you want to be able gank everyone else.

AcidicVision.5498:

Which goes back to what I have been saying this entire time. The thief is there to punish glass builds
If you have a problem with the damage you are taking from a thief’s largest possible burst, it’s a problem you created for yourself with your trait and gear choice.

So it is fine when one class disables wide array of builds not even by being able to outplay them, but just by abusing broken mechanics and pressing 1?
Great game design decision I guess. Okay, lets all reroll warriors, there nothing can be done here.

AcidicVision.5498:

@Sunshine, if you read the rest of the post I was talking about the base classes themselves. Eles have more in the way of weapon/utility defensive options, self and party heals, immunity, and condition cleansing than thieves do. For sustained range damage they have more options.

The last bit of my post I acknowledge that glass eles aren’t as effective because they are squish.

Then you perfectly proved my point: Glass thief is not an ordinary glass cannon, it has way too much advantage. A glass ele can’t compare to that at all. So, we came into the same agreement then?

AcidicVision.5498:

I am trying to be helpful. You can keep QQing on the forums, which will get you pretty much no where. If it does go somewhere, you won’t see the change for months. And when it does come, it won’t be what you expected. OR you could just modify your build to not be gankable because you want to be able gank everyone else.

These are not the normal QQ posts. The problem with stealth insta-gib is real, and it’s toxic. So far, you and other pro insta-gib posters have come into the same conclusion as we do, right?. We’re all trying to be helpful, so no need to name calling/ad hominem and stuffs.

If thief burst would be reduced this game would turn into bunker wars 2 since it would be impossible to take them down without a thief

And 13k is only possible with triple signet build if you can’t kill a thief with 3 signets and no stunbreak then you should probably uninstall.

That’s why I said burst, sustain damage AND healing all need to come down. Raise the TTK, but have less immortality, more plays get made. 1 shot teams and immortal tank game isn’t very fun.

Sustain is also lame. Classes with the best sustain would dominate : engi, guard,warrior.

Trust me having no bunker and no DPS would be the lamest thing ever.

ronpierce.2760:

That’s why I said burst, sustain damage AND healing all need to come down. Raise the TTK, but have less immortality, more plays get made. 1 shot teams and immortal tank game isn’t very fun.

I totally agree with you. I wrote a post about this before:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Why-it-s-hard-to-balance-GW2/first

The gap between super bunker and super zerker is too big. People say they are playing bunkers because they have to handle big bursts from thieves. Thieves say they must be allowed to have big bursts or else no one will kill the bunkers. Everyone else in the middle suffers.

It’s not healthy for the game. Tone down the burst from thieves and other glass cannon. Reduce the tankiness of bunkers greatly. Then we will have a much more easier to balance game. It’s also more fun because then people are more free to play the way they like (instead of being forced to play bunker/berserker)

Another hotjoin discussion. If a backstab hit you for 13k then you used frenzy or you played naked. Don’t blame a skill because you’re build is miserable.

The average backstab is around 5k.

Vash Past.4385:

phoenix+electric discharge+arcane wave,blast+fire/air sigils+lightning flash+air2 scepter +rtl= 20-25k in 1sec.

Bro I don’t know if it’s reading or counting that’s hard for you, but that’s at least 6 skills/button presses, by any account…. and my usual favorite, something along the lines of
“A thief caught out of stealth is a dead thief” – you mean like how an ele caught out of stealth(all the time, since we don’t stealth) is a dead ele? Aaaand because you’re sooo squishy, stuff your Medium armor class? You literally have it so easy you don’t even realize what squishy means. Lol

My NAGA + Logitech Keyboard says haroo

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Another hotjoin discussion. If a backstab hit you for 13k then you used frenzy or you played naked. Don’t blame a skill because you’re build is miserable.

The average backstab is around 5k.

YOUR average backstab is 5k because YOUR build is miserable. This thief was averaging 11-13k backstabs all game. I wasnt naked, I had 21k health and some toughness thrown in, with a mesmer. Im sorry but there is no skill in stealth atatcks that can be sneaked with teleports.

@Everyone else in this thread:

Back when I first noted that backstab was too strong for a stealthed attack, where I was consistently getting hit by 8-10k on a daily basis with BS on sPvP nobody believed me. I brought proof, still nobody believed me. I then create a thief and proceed to recreate the damage, I post the proof, still nobody believe backstab can hit that hard.

I now bring 13k backstab proof, with a screenshot, I didnt take screenshot of the others because I didnt think the community would be this dense and thick, but once again Im proven wrong.

PEOPLE, what the heck are you doing with your builds that you cant consistently hit 8k+ with your backstabs? Are you that bad of a player?

Oh I know, maybe because thieves are so dominant that the few people that dare to play power based builds get the shaft. I too know how to play condi tanky, I do know how to play thieves, I do know how to be a zoo keeper. I decided those gameplays are boring, I find them completely brain dead. I want to be able to play a GC. The ONLY thing stopping me isnt warriors, isnt mesmers, isnt necro: it is thieves with their spammable teleports and backstabs. This NEEDS to end, thieves LITERALLY hard counter to the point of unfair, illogical, toxic and frustrating whatever is left of us ele/mesmer power based GC.

Far too long i’ and many other had suggest Arena.net to remake/redesign this class,. Well 2 years later..we were the joke,

Glad i wasn’t “delusional” or ‘making things up’ of thieves being OP/ hitting for 7k-20k damage: which i recently posted.

The Truth lives on yet denial fights on. Denial is what is killing this game and it is killing it very fast..

Even new mmo’s in the market doesn’t use this game Philosophy and Theory of Overly Overpoweredness being considered Balance.

It’s a pity, guild wars 2 would had greatly succeeded and prospered but……..

As i said before, guild wars 2 is the only game, mmo in the market which does not impliment counter to stealth,. Guild Wars 2 is the only game, mmo in the market that adapt this Silly, Outrageous Overly OverPowered System in defining their game/class balance.

where is the future in all of this?

this is why i miss the old Arena.net from Guild Wars.

So many has said, "If the original Arena.net with Guild Wars were to introduce a remake of Guild Wars to their new technology, not only would it greatly prospered but would give them a edge in the highest populated mmo market.

It is indeed sad where guild wars 2 population stand.

In conclusion,

I know a thing about Toxic, it will suddenly die a quick death.

Can’t really say I can take this topic seriously anymore.

AcidicVision.5498:

Sunshine.5014:

Saying it’s a glass cannon complaining about another glass cannon is missing the point.

The point is: insta-gib from stealth is toxic. It’s the same thing for fresh air ele, although you can at least see the ele coming. 13k backstab from stealth is toxic. A thief is not a normal glass cannon. It’s a glass cannon with constant access to stealth and teleport. It has way too much advantage.

It’s not missing the point. It is the point. 13k damage isn’t flat across the board. The attack does not ignore armor or protection.

It only exists because the target was also built as a glass cannon and had insufficient burst protection.

• You think 13k backstab is a problem?
  yes
• Do all backstabs hit for 13K+ ?
  no
• Why does it hit you for 13k+ ?
  low toughness
• If you spec conservatively into toughness does it still hit you for 13k?
  no
• Is 13k backstab still a problem?
  no
• Were your choices enabling 13k backstabs to be a possibility?
  yes

Thieves punish and counter-play pure damage or burst based builds. If you didn’t play one of those builds then the thing you claim is toxic wouldn’t exist. Essentially, players are just mad another player is doing to them what they intentionally built to do to other people.

So as soon you see a thief in the enemy team you have to build full bunker just to ensure not to get hit for 13k? That doesn’t seem like a viable tactic. You can avoid every other class by just don’t walking near them. But if a thief decides to hunt you down, he will catch you, no matter what you’re doing. So the only viable “tactic” is just building super tanky. If the whole enemy team is forced to react to just one pick on your team, this pick will probably considered being OP in any game, sincethe whole team has no other choice than reacting to his pick.

Chaotic.9742:

@fortus
I sure as heck don’t fall into that “self proclaimed pro” category if you even knew me haha. I’m pretty humble and just play to get good and enjoy the game. Sure I think I’m decent/above average, .

Well, Im sorry if I offended you, not my intention, believe me. But if you think just because you are more known and because for whatever reason you are among the “pro” that your opinion is set on stone and above us all other “not pro”, or most “pro” kindly call us; scrubs… then we might not get to reach an understanding. Now, Im sure thats not what you meant and thats why i always try to keep it civilized and constructive.

Chaotic.9742:

Not sure why people post rage threads then rage at constructive criticism…

Good, so we can all agree that constructive criticism shouldnt be ignroed, right? Ok then, please, just for the sake of argument, at least open this links and give it a quick overview a these threads. Completely constructive, completely civilized, even with possible solutions and community solutions.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Backstab-1/first

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/sPvP-Thieves-driving-away-damage-dealers/first

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Stealth-Should-be-the-Reward/first

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Im-all-for-Balance-but/first

Im sorry, but as far as civilized and frustrated goes, i believe these threads (except the last one) strinke a good point, and a point agreed by MANY people in the community. Sure, my name is sullied already, im coined as a “thief hater” by many and just seeing my name makes them predisposed, but Im willing to put my name at stake for what I stand, and I stand for getting toxic things out of the game.

I also want thieves to be viable, i want them to be useful, but i want to remove the bad parts, for the health of the game and for my own as well. Believe it or not, we have lost several players due to this, including personal friends, guildies and even pros who rerolled thieves or even altogether left.

Im sorry if this thread came out as rage, but I find that after 2 years, by now these stuff would be already sorted out. If Anet still sees it as ok then thats where my problem is, just like they see warriors ok, which they are not (numbers wise, not toxic wise)

Anyways, Im sure this thread will fall on the path of the mist and never be seen by a dev because, quite frankly, at this point im still to believe thye just dont care if it doesnt involve warriors or engis.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

AcidicVision.5498:

Sunshine.5014:

Saying it’s a glass cannon complaining about another glass cannon is missing the point.

The point is: insta-gib from stealth is toxic. It’s the same thing for fresh air ele, although you can at least see the ele coming. 13k backstab from stealth is toxic. A thief is not a normal glass cannon. It’s a glass cannon with constant access to stealth and teleport. It has way too much advantage.

It’s not missing the point. It is the point. 13k damage isn’t flat across the board. The attack does not ignore armor or protection.

It only exists because the target was also built as a glass cannon and had insufficient burst protection.

• You think 13k backstab is a problem?
  yes
• Do all backstabs hit for 13K+ ?
  no
• Why does it hit you for 13k+ ?
  low toughness
• If you spec conservatively into toughness does it still hit you for 13k?
  no
• Is 13k backstab still a problem?
  no
• Were your choices enabling 13k backstabs to be a possibility?
  yes

Thieves punish and counter-play pure damage or burst based builds. If you didn’t play one of those builds then the thing you claim is toxic wouldn’t exist. Essentially, players are just mad another player is doing to them what they intentionally built to do to other people.

So as soon you see a thief in the enemy team you have to build full bunker just to ensure not to get hit for 13k? That doesn’t seem like a viable tactic. You can avoid every other class by just don’t walking near them. But if a thief decides to hunt you down, he will catch you, no matter what you’re doing. So the only viable “tactic” is just building super tanky. If the whole enemy team is forced to react to just one pick on your team, this pick will probably considered being OP in any game, sincethe whole team has no other choice than reacting to his pick.

sPvP thieves don’t hit for 13k.

And if you really have problems with thieves on sPvP, you are just bad or not build right.

And for WvW….
Well if you can’t detect someone approaching you in an open field map, you may want to check your culling settings in the Option menu.

SoulSin.5682:

sPvP thieves don’t hit for 13k.

SoulSin.5682:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

AcidicVision.5498:

Sunshine.5014:

Saying it’s a glass cannon complaining about another glass cannon is missing the point.

The point is: insta-gib from stealth is toxic. It’s the same thing for fresh air ele, although you can at least see the ele coming. 13k backstab from stealth is toxic. A thief is not a normal glass cannon. It’s a glass cannon with constant access to stealth and teleport. It has way too much advantage.

It’s not missing the point. It is the point. 13k damage isn’t flat across the board. The attack does not ignore armor or protection.

It only exists because the target was also built as a glass cannon and had insufficient burst protection.

• You think 13k backstab is a problem?
  yes
• Do all backstabs hit for 13K+ ?
  no
• Why does it hit you for 13k+ ?
  low toughness
• If you spec conservatively into toughness does it still hit you for 13k?
  no
• Is 13k backstab still a problem?
  no
• Were your choices enabling 13k backstabs to be a possibility?
  yes

Thieves punish and counter-play pure damage or burst based builds. If you didn’t play one of those builds then the thing you claim is toxic wouldn’t exist. Essentially, players are just mad another player is doing to them what they intentionally built to do to other people.

So as soon you see a thief in the enemy team you have to build full bunker just to ensure not to get hit for 13k? That doesn’t seem like a viable tactic. You can avoid every other class by just don’t walking near them. But if a thief decides to hunt you down, he will catch you, no matter what you’re doing. So the only viable “tactic” is just building super tanky. If the whole enemy team is forced to react to just one pick on your team, this pick will probably considered being OP in any game, sincethe whole team has no other choice than reacting to his pick.

sPvP thieves don’t hit for 13k.

And if you really have problems with thieves on sPvP, you are just bad or not build right.

And for WvW….
Well if you can’t detect someone approaching you in an open field map, you may want to check your culling settings in the Option menu.

I hope you realize that the screenshot in the first post is spvp right? If not, then you just weakened the argument for your side greatly.

Happened to me awhile ago. Here is the damage log:

I think I was wearing a cleric amulet, with 13k hp. I’m amazed Anet allows that type of skill to stay as it is.

Aza.2105:

Happened to me awhile ago. Here is the damage log:

I think I was wearing a cleric amulet, with 13k hp. I’m amazed Anet allows that type of skill to stay as it is.

For the longest time I also was amazed that Anet has ignored this. I’m not surprised anymore after watching a few twitch episodes. Being trolled by a player is one thing. Being trolled by the developer is another.

Aza.2105:

Happened to me awhile ago. Here is the damage log:

I think I was wearing a cleric amulet, with 13k hp. I’m amazed Anet allows that type of skill to stay as it is.

Did a few check ups. With 20 stacks of Might I can hit for 13.060 on a Target Golen – Light. If you add a few vulnerability stacks than yes. I can truly confirm this is possible.

Though you need to have a few stars aligned to make that happens on real combat.

Lol needed a good laugh today ty. You realize a backstab thief is probably one of the most predictable builds in the game right. Stealth into BS everytime normally, it’s no mystery what he’s gonna do from stealth.

Splatter Paw.7238:

Lol needed a good laugh today ty. You realize a backstab thief is probably one of the most predictable builds in the game right. Stealth into BS everytime normally, it’s no mystery what he’s gonna do from stealth.

Can you stop him? No you can’t. Even if you know what he’s doing, you can’t stop him from trying it over and over until he succeeds.

Splatter Paw.7238:

Lol needed a good laugh today ty. You realize a backstab thief is probably one of the most predictable builds in the game right. Stealth into BS everytime normally, it’s no mystery what he’s gonna do from stealth.

lol you seriously went there. Could you have more oxymoron comments in your post?

…“stealth into BS every time ……normally” …huh?
…“no mystery what he’s gonna do from stealth”….. Well it is kind of a mystery since, you know, you can’t see him ?

Forzani.2584:

Aza.2105:

Happened to me awhile ago. Here is the damage log:

I think I was wearing a cleric amulet, with 13k hp. I’m amazed Anet allows that type of skill to stay as it is.

For the longest time I also was amazed that Anet has ignored this. I’m not surprised anymore after watching a few twitch episodes. Being trolled by a player is one thing. Being trolled by the developer is another.

yup.

fifteen characters.

OneManArmy.9732:

Vash Past.4385:

How do I ‘get the stars to align’ to do 14k with one hit with my Ele?(Who has no invisibility mechanic and less armor). Oh that’s right, I can’t.

phoenix+electric discharge+arcane wave,blast+fire/air sigils+lightning flash+air2 scepter +rtl= 20-25k in 1sec.

But it’s not “One Hit” and it consists of using multiple high CD skills unlike thief burst. That burst you mentioned has a 40 second cooldown because of LF and requires you to do it perfectly and crit *every single skill *to get to that 20k damage you claim. I’m not even sure if it will reach 20-25k damage against medium/heavy armor classes.

Compare it to the requirement of just being in stealth and hitting your target from his back or his sides. IMO they should rework Backstab. Make it hit 2x Damage on literal “Backstabs” and 1.75x Damage on “sidestabs”.

I just got Backstabbed for 18.23k by a thief in sPvP

Nerf needed ASAP

Thieves already made all other glassy/zerk classes utterly pointless. If you want to play glassy it’s either roll a Thief or get destroyed by one.

It seems ANet made that aspect even worse.

Lol do you need to see him? Where does a thief need to position to get a BS? Your back! You should revise how you deal with stealth if because you can’t see him, all counter play is void to you for his one trick pony build.

SoulSin.5682:

Aza.2105:

Happened to me awhile ago. Here is the damage log:

I think I was wearing a cleric amulet, with 13k hp. I’m amazed Anet allows that type of skill to stay as it is.

Did a few check ups. With 20 stacks of Might I can hit for 13.060 on a Target Golen – Light. If you add a few vulnerability stacks than yes. I can truly confirm this is possible.

Though you need to have a few stars aligned to make that happens on real combat.

I’m not sure if you are trying to say that its difficult to do. Its not, the entire match the samething happened to me over and over. I found it sort of funny, my character didn’t even have dying animation. They just went from standing to laying down.

Splatter Paw.7238:

Lol do you need to see him? Where does a thief need to position to get a BS? Your back! You should revise how you deal with stealth if because you can’t see him, all counter play is void to you for his one trick pony build.

Not really, BS lands from any place except directly in front of the target. I believe if BS actually required one to be behind the target then there wouldn’t be many complaints about it.

Aza.2105:

SoulSin.5682:

Aza.2105:

Happened to me awhile ago. Here is the damage log:

I think I was wearing a cleric amulet, with 13k hp. I’m amazed Anet allows that type of skill to stay as it is.

Did a few check ups. With 20 stacks of Might I can hit for 13.060 on a Target Golen – Light. If you add a few vulnerability stacks than yes. I can truly confirm this is possible.

Though you need to have a few stars aligned to make that happens on real combat.

I’m not sure if you are trying to say that its difficult to do. Its not, the entire match the samething happened to me over and over. I found it sort of funny, my character didn’t even have dying animation. They just went from standing to laying down.

lol sorry, but that really made me laugh. Spit my coffee up a bit

Splatter Paw.7238:

Lol do you need to see him? Where does a thief need to position to get a BS? Your back! You should revise how you deal with stealth if because you can’t see him, all counter play is void to you for his one trick pony build.

He can also just hit you from either side and get the back damage bonus. Basically it gives thieves a 75% chance of landing a good backstab.

Personally I don’t care what class is doing it, but there shouldn’t be ANY skills in the game doing such huge bursts. I mean some classes can literally be one shot and that’s not skilled play. It ultimately pushes everyone to have survivable builds, oh I wonder why bunker builds are a big thing…

ArenaNets balance team has failed by every single metric since launch. Conditions are an absolute mess both in PvP and PvE. Rangers…nuff said. Tons of traits are absolutely useless and misplaced in trait lines. I mean the list goes on. If I failed at my job for a single month I would be fired, but here we are 1.5 years in and every patch we get the same trash where things that need fixed weren’t, things that didn’t need changed were, and makes you wonder if they even play the game. They need some new blood on the balance team and most certainly a new direction for where to take balance. Whatever they are doing is not working and it needs to change.

Distaste.4801:

Splatter Paw.7238:

Lol do you need to see him? Where does a thief need to position to get a BS? Your back! You should revise how you deal with stealth if because you can’t see him, all counter play is void to you for his one trick pony build.

He can also just hit you from either side and get the back damage bonus. Basically it gives thieves a 75% chance of landing a good backstab.

Personally I don’t care what class is doing it, but there shouldn’t be ANY skills in the game doing such huge bursts. I mean some classes can literally be one shot and that’s not skilled play. It ultimately pushes everyone to have survivable builds, oh I wonder why bunker builds are a big thing…

ArenaNets balance team has failed by every single metric since launch. Conditions are an absolute mess both in PvP and PvE. Rangers…nuff said. Tons of traits are absolutely useless and misplaced in trait lines. I mean the list goes on. If I failed at my job for a single month I would be fired, but here we are 1.5 years in and every patch we get the same trash where things that need fixed weren’t, things that didn’t need changed were, and makes you wonder if they even play the game. They need some new blood on the balance team and most certainly a new direction for where to take balance. Whatever they are doing is not working and it needs to change.

That’s one of the problems, they do play the game. Most games have a test server where the players can test things out. Here? They do it themselves. Did you see the twitch feed when they were introducing the new pvp map? the dev was giddy with excitement talking about how the map was gonna be great for his thieves blinks/teleports. We are in their world.

New blood? Maybe, maybe not. What they do need is some oversight. Someone that is in charge of quality control. Someone that doesn’t play the game so he has no bias towards any class. Someone that reads the forum or talks to a few random players about game flaws. Then goes back to the team and asks why?

Nutshel.7264:

AcidicVision.5498:

It only exists because the target was also built as a glass cannon and had insufficient burst protection.

• You think 13k backstab is a problem?
  yes
• Do all backstabs hit for 13K+ ?
  no
• Why does it hit you for 13k+ ?
  low toughness
• If you spec conservatively into toughness does it still hit you for 13k?
  no
• Is 13k backstab still a problem?
  no
• Were your choices enabling 13k backstabs to be a possibility?
  yes

Thieves punish and counter-play pure damage or burst based builds. If you didn’t play one of those builds then the thing you claim is toxic wouldn’t exist. Essentially, players are just mad another player is doing to them what they intentionally built to do to other people.

I can do that too

• You think 13k backstab is a problem?
  yes
• Does stacking toughness solve backstab problem?
  no
• Can your class kill anybody if toughness is stacked?
  no
• Is your class tanky enough to to bunker point if toughness is stacked?
  no
• Does stacking toughness help you kill thief in long run?
  no, you will still eat 30%-60% hp hit while not being able to deal any damage

Now when it comes to thief, they can go full zerker, no toughness but they will still have survivability similar or greater(depends on class) due to high amount of stealth and disengage abilities, sure they can’t cap points like that… but then again if they jump into fight and kill somebody instantly with their unavoidable attacks then they don’t need to disengage or go invis.

“Thieves punish and counter-play pure damage or burst based builds.”
More like are hard counter to high burst classes/build without having counter to themselves. Maintaining higher burst and higher survivability and not suffering problems other classes do all that with same/similar stat/trait investment.

Beautiful rebuttal.

Nutshel.7264:

…
kill somebody instantly with their unavoidable attacks…

Please tell me you don’t mindlessly stand in one place (unless cc’ed) when the thief stealths…

I actually liked multiple points made in this thread. The big question I keep asking myself: Is large-scale insta-cast burst with no visual tell to react to healthy for the game?

I personally hate the concept. I had an opportunity to watch an Ele’s air-burst combo land on me several times in WvW, and even though you can count on them to basically always do it on CD, it was just so… lame. I have no pity for Eles who hobble around on their crutch and let the world know how difficult it is to be them, because a good Ele who cycles through cooldowns properly is a bear to take down.

Similarly for Backstab, it’s annoying to have to guess when it’s going to land. Yes, you often know a Stealthed Thief is going to try to Backstab. Having to generally guess when to dodge is still, in my opinion, bad design. Worse design is the fact that missing for a Thief means that if they have any Stealth left, they can just keep swinging through the dodge until it lands.

Maybe, though, in the grand scheme of balance these builds serve the purpose that people have outlined: to counter-snipe other low-toughness/glassier builds Everyone wants to be King Glass, and many people take dying in a game extremely personally, so these insta-burst mechanics that force you to anticipate through educated guessing (which is still guessing) instead of giving time to react feel terrible to play against. That’s the kicker. Good game design makes you feel really good to play as something.

Great game design makes you feel really good to play as something at the same time as playing against something else.

Many classes/builds in this game I find a lot of fun to play against, win or lose. When I take 10k damage instantly with no tell, my heart just kind of leaves the fight in many cases. It’s purely a subjective response to a mechanic in the game that feels really lame, and for me, even winning the fight against said person with appropriate anticipation doesn’t feel good. I just end up wondering why they are allowed to do that, because I bet it is ultra easy to pull off against 90% of the people who run around.

But maybe… maybe we don’t have to feel so bad about dying to bursts like that in a video game. Maybe we can accept that deaths happen, and that it might not even be detrimental to the win/loss as a whole. Maybe we can realize that not all of the players who run builds like that think they are gods, they just really like high-burst sniper builds and that’s how they have fun.

Maybe it’s extremely detrimental to the health of the game. Maybe it just isn’t a very big deal because it isn’t without counter in the game.

Either way, I’m going to bed. Good thought exercise though.

Zero Day.2594:

Nutshel.7264:

…
kill somebody instantly with their unavoidable attacks…

Please tell me you don’t mindlessly stand in one place (unless cc’ed) when the thief stealths…

To be fair, you don’t know if you’re actually avoiding them until you either get hit or they dropout of stealth. Yeah, you can get “block” or “evade” messages, but those are the results of lucky guesses, not skilled play.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Zero Day.2594:

Nutshel.7264:

…
kill somebody instantly with their unavoidable attacks…

Please tell me you don’t mindlessly stand in one place (unless cc’ed) when the thief stealths…

To be fair, you don’t know if you’re actually avoiding them until you either get hit or they dropout of stealth. Yeah, you can get “block” or “evade” messages, but those are the results of lucky guesses, not skilled play.

Part of everything is just coincidence/luck. It’s better than standing still and eating the back stab in the back. Maybe you can mitigate the damage by turning around…. sparingly dodge rolling, anticipating the attacks…. But, hey, be my guest, stand still, since doing any of those aren’t really skillful (except anticipation to a certain degree) and rely on luck.

Thing is, yeah there’s no way to reveal (not counting traps, and Sic’em…) the thief once he’s stealthed. Everyone knows that. You can either cry about it, or you could still find some sort of a way to do at least something when the thief does stealth. The first won’t (actually will, since ANet does listen) get you anywhere, the latter will at least get you a bit further away from your current situation.

Chaotic.9742:

While it sucks that you died, I’m assuming this thief is a tissue and would die quite easily as well.

This is actually a wrong assumption.

Thieves can build incredibly glassy, go all out damage and zero defensive. But thanks to Stealth, Blinds, Evades and Teleports they will still actually be one of the hardest to kill.

I never undestood why Arenanet descided to put the burst on an Stealth skill. Rather then making it an opener. Say, give cripple, stack vulnerability, something to give you an edge as you start the fight.
Not taking down half or more of someones health.

Sunshine.5014:

Fungalfoot.7213:

I won’t argue that stealth isn’t broken because it is but overall thieves really aren’t that great. The reason why thieves have to rely on these cheap tactics is because it’s the only way they can accomplish anything. Remove it from them and you pretty much destroy the entire class.

Is it a poorly designed class then? Yes, I’d argue so. That said, until ArenaNet gets around to remaking thieves I can’t help but think that any drastical nerfs to them would be uncalled for. I get that it’s frustrating and unfair and I’m definitely not trying to play the role of thief apologist here but after trying their other options myself I fully understand why they rely on this cheese.

Thanks for your understanding! I also agree with you that it’s broken, and if we nerf it without compensation, it sucks for thieves. Thieves are forced to play burst because their sustaining options aren’t that good. There are a few options to tone down the toxic insta gib from stealth:

1) reduce the damage, but add a minor cc condition to it, for example Cripple.
2) reduce the damage, but make it regenerate 2 initiatives on hit
3) reduce the damage greatly, and add multiple stacks of bleeding instead.

The point is to make it much less likely to use the cheap tactics of insta-gib from stealth.

I completely agree with Fungalfoot’s point here, but those alternatives are terrible. Giving it condition based perks on a power/crit based playstyle? nah. The only thing I can think of (which would make sense too) is in exchange for damage reduction would be to make it unblockable because hey, he’s stabbing from the back yo.

Black.2150:

Sunshine.5014:

Fungalfoot.7213:

I won’t argue that stealth isn’t broken because it is but overall thieves really aren’t that great. The reason why thieves have to rely on these cheap tactics is because it’s the only way they can accomplish anything. Remove it from them and you pretty much destroy the entire class.

Is it a poorly designed class then? Yes, I’d argue so. That said, until ArenaNet gets around to remaking thieves I can’t help but think that any drastical nerfs to them would be uncalled for. I get that it’s frustrating and unfair and I’m definitely not trying to play the role of thief apologist here but after trying their other options myself I fully understand why they rely on this cheese.

Thanks for your understanding! I also agree with you that it’s broken, and if we nerf it without compensation, it sucks for thieves. Thieves are forced to play burst because their sustaining options aren’t that good. There are a few options to tone down the toxic insta gib from stealth:

1) reduce the damage, but add a minor cc condition to it, for example Cripple.
2) reduce the damage, but make it regenerate 2 initiatives on hit
3) reduce the damage greatly, and add multiple stacks of bleeding instead.

The point is to make it much less likely to use the cheap tactics of insta-gib from stealth.

I completely agree with Fungalfoot’s point here, but those alternatives are terrible. Giving it condition based perks on a power/crit based playstyle? nah. The only thing I can think of (which would make sense too) is in exchange for damage reduction would be to make it unblockable because hey, he’s stabbing from the back yo.

I think your suggestion is fair too. Instead of making it double damage from behind, make it a guaranteed crit and unblockable.

Sunshine.5014:

Black.2150:

Sunshine.5014:

Fungalfoot.7213:

I won’t argue that stealth isn’t broken because it is but overall thieves really aren’t that great. The reason why thieves have to rely on these cheap tactics is because it’s the only way they can accomplish anything. Remove it from them and you pretty much destroy the entire class.

Is it a poorly designed class then? Yes, I’d argue so. That said, until ArenaNet gets around to remaking thieves I can’t help but think that any drastical nerfs to them would be uncalled for. I get that it’s frustrating and unfair and I’m definitely not trying to play the role of thief apologist here but after trying their other options myself I fully understand why they rely on this cheese.

Thanks for your understanding! I also agree with you that it’s broken, and if we nerf it without compensation, it sucks for thieves. Thieves are forced to play burst because their sustaining options aren’t that good. There are a few options to tone down the toxic insta gib from stealth:

1) reduce the damage, but add a minor cc condition to it, for example Cripple.
2) reduce the damage, but make it regenerate 2 initiatives on hit
3) reduce the damage greatly, and add multiple stacks of bleeding instead.

The point is to make it much less likely to use the cheap tactics of insta-gib from stealth.

I completely agree with Fungalfoot’s point here, but those alternatives are terrible. Giving it condition based perks on a power/crit based playstyle? nah. The only thing I can think of (which would make sense too) is in exchange for damage reduction would be to make it unblockable because hey, he’s stabbing from the back yo.

I think your suggestion is fair too. Instead of making it double damage from behind, make it a guaranteed crit and unblockable.

If they made it unblockable and always crit, then it would also have to ONLY be from their actual back and not from the sides too like it is now. It’s called backstab, not sidestab, it should only work if you hit their actual back.

Forzani.2584:

That’s one of the problems, they do play the game. Most games have a test server where the players can test things out. Here? They do it themselves. Did you see the twitch feed when they were introducing the new pvp map? the dev was giddy with excitement talking about how the map was gonna be great for his thieves blinks/teleports. We are in their world.

New blood? Maybe, maybe not. What they do need is some oversight. Someone that is in charge of quality control. Someone that doesn’t play the game so he has no bias towards any class. Someone that reads the forum or talks to a few random players about game flaws. Then goes back to the team and asks why?

No I didn’t see the new map one, but I did see the one where they were joking about how OP warrior is. They can be excited about maps all they want but they also need to realize when they’ve failed. Testing it yourself is fine for big bug issues but I can guarantee that the staff they have aren’t nearly as good as some of the players and won’t think of the things that the overall playerbase does.

I’ll definitely agree that they need something. Heck even 1 dev per class would be a huge boost. Their balance speed is absolutely glacial and 99% of the time the community can theorycraft the outcome. If they were more open about changes they wouldn’t even need to spend weeks in-house testing. The community would basically figure it out for them. However once again we go back to them just not listening. I mean they posted this patches class balance stuff a month ago and I can think of 1-2 things that got changed from feedback; One of which was them actually making the right change in the notes and then changing it due to whiners(I’m looking at you mesmers).

Msg to OP : you are not boring to post same screenshoot since 4 month ?

Sunshine.5014:

Fungalfoot.7213:

I won’t argue that stealth isn’t broken because it is but overall thieves really aren’t that great. The reason why thieves have to rely on these cheap tactics is because it’s the only way they can accomplish anything. Remove it from them and you pretty much destroy the entire class.

Is it a poorly designed class then? Yes, I’d argue so. That said, until ArenaNet gets around to remaking thieves I can’t help but think that any drastical nerfs to them would be uncalled for. I get that it’s frustrating and unfair and I’m definitely not trying to play the role of thief apologist here but after trying their other options myself I fully understand why they rely on this cheese.

Thanks for your understanding! I also agree with you that it’s broken, and if we nerf it without compensation, it sucks for thieves. Thieves are forced to play burst because their sustaining options aren’t that good. There are a few options to tone down the toxic insta gib from stealth:

1) reduce the damage, but add a minor cc condition to it, for example Cripple.
2) reduce the damage, but make it regenerate 2 initiatives on hit
3) reduce the damage greatly, and add multiple stacks of bleeding instead.

The point is to make it much less likely to use the cheap tactics of insta-gib from stealth.

My suggestion:

4)

1. Slight decrease dmg of all daggerskills (I think ~20% would fits good.)
2. Change coeffizienz vom BS from 2.4 to 1.8.
3. Increase attackspeed of all skills by ~35%

Belgarion.1975:

Msg to OP : you are not boring to post same screenshoot since 4 month ?

Screenshot was taken 2 days ago, yo. However, if what you want is a daily screenshot I would be more than glad to provide it, since it is daily that I encounter these 10k+ backstabs…….

Like I have repeatedly said; people, stop nitpicking and focus on the real issue at hand. This upfronted, unavoidable damage should not exist, period. Eve if it were 4 months old, even if it were 1 year old. This issue has been here since release already! Fix it at once for crying out loud!!

Fortus.6175:

PEOPLE, what the heck are you doing with your builds that you cant consistently hit 8k+ with your backstabs?

Fighting against people who know how to play the game?

30/30/0/0/10 Triple Signet Scholar is great against keyboard turners, for sure, but falls off pretty quick against players with a pulse. 10/30/x/x/x, real utilities, and runes that don’t turn to garbage the moment you take a hit pushes you down to the 8-9k vs glass scholars, 5k vs bunkers range.

The new rewards have pulled a lot of keyboard turners and skill clickers into sPvP, and full dunk thieves are coming out in force to feast. Playing anything glassy in that environment is basically throwing dice.