Guild Wars 2

Stealth is a bad mechanism. Press to flee press to attack, press to make a coffee…

DeWolfe.2174:

btw… OP, use a different screenshot than one from a couple months ago.

No, that was taken on wednesday, the day after the patc. I posted it on anothe rof threads to show the damage post patch and how things havent changed at all.

Why do people dont believe me when i tell them this? O_o

Looks like a l2p issue to me.

I run glassy on spvp and I’ve never been hit that hard. If a 1 trick pony downs you like that it’s okay, the next time you will look out for him and deny his only fighting strategy, and then win.

Razor.6392:

Looks like a l2p issue to me.

I run glassy on spvp and I’ve never been hit that hard. If a 1 trick pony downs you like that it’s okay, the next time you will look out for him and deny his only fighting strategy, and then win.

even if I dont get hit this hard (which for the most part is the case, I only get hit with 8-10k most of the time, the 11-13k happens 1 out of 5 games) it is stil ltoo much.

8k out of 12k base is 66% of my health, upfront, without anyway to stop it, with a 4 seconds CD, not counting the stuff that come after it such as blinds/HS or the such, or dodges to wait for the second unavoidable backstab.

Im sorry but they have too much of an edge, this is too punishing, no unavoidable and unseen skill should have such upfronted damage, none!

I’m not exactly a proponent for Backstab or the current relationship between Thieves and stealth in GW2, but to say Backstab is “unavoidable” is an exaggeration that really does your entire argument injustice.

Let the adamant supports blow their argument out of proportion by how hard it is to be a Thief and land any of their attacks. If anything, sticking to the cost/benefit analysis of getting into Stealth and Backstabbing while also analyzing the difficulty of reading a Thief and the knowledge/experience required vs. using a Thief and hitting an enemy with Backstab should be plenty effective at highlighting the disparity.

I don’t know about you guys but is been long since I got a damage window pop-up upon death like the one on the OP screenshot. Looks like is an old screen shot for when Thieves were really deadly, or it is something in the options you can enable.

xbutcherx.3861:

I don’t know about you guys but is been long since I got a damage window pop-up upon death like the one on the OP screenshot. Looks like is an old screen shot for when Thieves were really deadly, or it is something in the options you can enable.

You can click to see the detailed death breakdown after you get killed. It just doesn’t show by default anymore.

To quote areanet on their last class sum up

“Thief
Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage. They can be very fragile if you counter their stealth with area of effects or large stacks of conditions, but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game. They are able to help allies through traps, venoms and the mobility to flank most encounters.”

Tldr; l2p

For what it’s worth, just got done in a game where a ranger was running the traits that applies protection, stealth, regen? when they take a certain percent of their health as damage, it completely negated my backstab opener even if I got the jump.

Many classes have traits like this that are overlooked. “X” kicks in, when you take “x” percentage in one hit"

I’m surprised you lot crying about no counters haven’t caught onto this yet.

Couldn’t take him down, screwed my opener, now I was out of stealth with “reveal” he was in stealth and took little to no damage, and proceeded to annihilate me.

Just saying,

Bowflex.4502:

To quote areanet on their last class sum up

“Thief
Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage. They can be very fragile if you counter their stealth with area of effects or large stacks of conditions, but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game. They are able to help allies through traps, venoms and the mobility to flank most encounters.”

Tldr; l2p

Now go read the other profession descriptions.

Go read the “manifesto” while you are at it.

TL;DR: you are making BS claims based on, well, BS.

Fortus.6175:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Another hotjoin discussion. If a backstab hit you for 13k then you used frenzy or you played naked. Don’t blame a skill because you’re build is miserable.

The average backstab is around 5k.

YOUR average backstab is 5k because YOUR build is miserable. This thief was averaging 11-13k backstabs all game. I wasnt naked, I had 21k health and some toughness thrown in, with a mesmer. Im sorry but there is no skill in stealth atatcks that can be sneaked with teleports.

---

@Everyone else in this thread:

Back when I first noted that backstab was too strong for a stealthed attack, where I was consistently getting hit by 8-10k on a daily basis with BS on sPvP nobody believed me. I brought proof, still nobody believed me. I then create a thief and proceed to recreate the damage, I post the proof, still nobody believe backstab can hit that hard.

I now bring 13k backstab proof, with a screenshot, I didnt take screenshot of the others because I didnt think the community would be this dense and thick, but once again Im proven wrong.

PEOPLE, what the heck are you doing with your builds that you cant consistently hit 8k+ with your backstabs? Are you that bad of a player?

Oh I know, maybe because thieves are so dominant that the few people that dare to play power based builds get the shaft. I too know how to play condi tanky, I do know how to play thieves, I do know how to be a zoo keeper. I decided those gameplays are boring, I find them completely brain dead. I want to be able to play a GC. The ONLY thing stopping me isnt warriors, isnt mesmers, isnt necro: it is thieves with their spammable teleports and backstabs. This NEEDS to end, thieves LITERALLY hard counter to the point of unfair, illogical, toxic and frustrating whatever is left of us ele/mesmer power based GC.

Basically….all I am seeing is “omg nerf thieves cause I have no skill and can’t react to damage!!!!!!!!”

LISTEN…on your first post, you said getting hit 13k BS is not fair because it 1shots you and you cannot react. I AGREE.

But now, you are saying that you can’t react to a 13k backstab at 21k hp. That means you have 8k hp to make do with. And the theif has to spend 1-2 seconds to regain stealth and reposition himself. 1-2 seconds is a LONG TIME. And hitting 13k on a player with a “decent amount of toughness” is unrealistic.

FURTHERMORE, thieves do not average 8k+ backstabs…unless it’s on a zerk player. So please, do not try to insult us by labeling one exception as a norm.

FINALLY, the skill of the one being backstabbed needs to be questioned. The 13k backstab was something that happened once. If he started out with it, he would have taken a good chunk of your hp. However, that only happened ONCE. He the finished you off with TWENTY-FOUR BURNS and then some. Are you honestly saying that you could not react to that? If he finished you with the 13k backstab, then the burns in question should have been more then enough warning for you to get out of there. And if it was a team fight situation, it was a power play. 2 people fighting one person. Nothing to QQ about there.

IN CONCLUSION – get some skill.

P.S. – not my fault if eles and mes are based on TEAM FIGHTS with your AoEs…

P.S.S. – deny the theif area to backstab by AoEing (is that even a word?) the area around you with you at the center of the AoE.

Bowflex.4502:

Supreme.4051:

come back next year and find out backstab has been ‘nerfed’ to 12.5k hit.

stealth is a passive mechanic that is bad by nature in active combat which gw2 is trying to achieve… can’t believe people are actually trying to defend it.

For every 10 of you whining, there’s a great player with zero issues

.

I think many of the Thief “haters” might somewhat agree with you …to a point. I do agree that great players likely have little problems with thieves. Hell, I have even seen videos of Rangers beating Thieves….go figure.

The problem is, many of the defenders of thieves use the above example that thieves are fine. In reality you can’t use elite players as an indication of balance. You need to use the common man……an average player. Since average is, well, average = majority of the players. Never mind a new player entering WvW or PvP. The average or new player can’t deal with Thieves. Some are determined so they practice and get better. I would bet the majority say kitten it and forget about WvW or PvP. I can’t imagine most game developers (other than Anet) would be happy to see their players run off. Yes, those same new players would likely struggle vs other classes…but at least they can see them.

Then there is a 3rd player. Someone like myself. Maybe a 40% win vs Thieves. Win or lose though it annoys the kitten out of me fighting them. Enough so that I log out many times because even when I win, it just isn’t fun.

I like when someone gets killed by a thief it’s “l2p” but when a thief gets killed they are “underpowered” or other class is “OP”.

Right now got killed by perma-stealth thief (WvW so yes it’s not balanced because he had 25 stacks and 5 guard stacks and I had none (power creep op)). I managed to get him low health but of course – stealth, reset fight and try again.

It wouldn’t be so bad if each time I try to knockback/pull him out of black powder I get insta blinded all the time. Dodge? by the time dodge animation is over he already leaps into stealth mode. My skills are on 20-30 sec cooldown and he can just insta spam without cooldown again.

Supreme.4051:

I like when someone gets killed by a thief it’s “l2p” but when a thief gets killed they are “underpowered” or other class is “OP”.

Funny, I read always the other thing.

If I kill someone, than I’m OP, but if I die than I’m a noob.
And sometimes I hear both, from the same person.

PS: Have you ever realize how small the area of BP is?
Every melee weapon have a longer range than the radius of BP and nobody force you to stay in their field. And no, I dont talk about dodges, I mean walk or run out of it.

Eloquence.5207:

Bowflex.4502:

To quote areanet on their last class sum up

“Thief
Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage. They can be very fragile if you counter their stealth with area of effects or large stacks of conditions, but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game. They are able to help allies through traps, venoms and the mobility to flank most encounters.”

Tldr; l2p

Now go read the other profession descriptions.

Go read the “manifesto” while you are at it.

TL;DR: you are making BS claims based on, well, BS.

“Thief player are toxic players who defend toxic mechanics with toxics arguments.”

=> working as intented

Lol trade of fragility…what is more difficult to down than a thief honestly ?
You must be a thief to find something else.

Black Teagan.9215:

Supreme.4051:

I like when someone gets killed by a thief it’s “l2p” but when a thief gets killed they are “underpowered” or other class is “OP”.

Funny, I read always the other thing.

If I kill someone, than I’m OP, but if I die that I’m a noob.
And sometimes I hear both, from the same person.

PS: Have you ever realize how small the area of BP is?
Every melee weapon have a longer range than the radius of BP and nobody force you to stay in their field. And no, I dont talk about dodges, I mean walk or run out of it.

BP always results in a blind unless dodged, because in addition to the field it fires a projectile that blinds. That is what supreme was referring to when he was talking about the difficulty of landing a knockback/pull to prevent the heartseeker, everyone knows to stay out of the red circles.

I’m not going to comment on any questions of over/underpoweredness here, it just seems like you were unaware that BP doesn’t solely rely on the AoE to blind.

For supreme, it can help to save any instant casts you might have for that moment in order to instantly remove the blind in time for you to interrupt the HS. Seeing as they are using pretty large chunks of initiative to use this combo, it should be hard to interrupt, but it is certainly possible.

Emi.4152:

Fortus.6175:

>Im aware the backstab build is a one trick pony, just like fresh air ele, however, they should not be put together. One is a build that has 40+ CD, has more than one skills involved, can be seen from miles away. The other one has only one skill involved, and if it were to fail, all he has to do is stealth/teleport away. Completely different.

Why do you think thieves only have a single ‘one trick pony’ build? Thieves can also be seen miles away, unless your up against a thief that blows all his/her utilities and initiative before even engaging…

Fortus.6175:

>Backstab is whats wrong, not the class. I actually believe having too many thieves in my team will lose me the game. Why? Because they are terrible in capture the point, Most thieves resort to stealth spam, and i think we cna all agree that stealth spam is both bad for the players in the sense that it lacks true coutners, and the fact that a thief who spends his time in stealth isnt winning the game.

Last i checked, stealth spam thieves were the worst thing for that game mode. btw, the 13k backstab build that you’re complaining about is a completely different build. stealth spam builds have no hope of achieving backstabs with the numbers you’re talking about.

Fortus.6175:

> All I want is all the upfront damage to be moved somewhere else. RIght now squishies are straight up pushed away from the meta almost single handlely by both thieves and condi bunkers. This needs to stop.

I thought sword/dagger (evasion) and dagger/pistol (trickery) builds were the thief meta currently? both do not spam stealth.. and both do not do 13k backstabs…

Fortus.6175:

>I want thieves to be a nice add to the team, not a one trick pony that creates frustration but lose games. Right now thieves are too binary; either they face squishies and dominate, or face tanks and get dominated No middle ground, no team utility if they cant instagib the enemy. This is my definition of toxic; it creates a situation where both sides lose.

I wasn’t aware that thieves were all binary one trick ponies… I shall now tell every thief i meet to play in this way so as to meet your expectations and bias. :>

NinjaBreadMan.8926:

What is my counterplay to backstab? Double dodge roll in the opposite direction I last saw the teef and pray he runs out of stealth? As an ele, it is extremely hard to kill a d/p teef because of the blinds and the atleast 50% stealth uptime and the window in which i can kill them is about 45 seconds before refuge comes back up. All the while I pray that backstab wont crit me and ONLY do 5k-6k damage.

Double dodging and praying isn’t a very good way to fight a thief…

As a d/d ele, don’t dodge at all. estimate how long the thief will take to reach you and turn and face them, autoattacking in air the whole time. if you manage to make them facestab you and you land 2 or so autoattacks, you will end up taking a bigger chunk out of their health than they do yours. Follow that on with air 5 -> fire 3 -> fire 4 -> etc. and burst them. if they shadowstep away, get into water and heal back up or follow them with an earth 4 -> lightening flash. D/D eles are actually a hard matchup for backstab thieves. the AOE 360 range autoattacks hurt alot and the number of soft and hard CCs you have access to…. you shouldnt be having problems with backstab thieves.

If you start running before the fight even starts, why are you surprised that you lost?

emi

ALL thieves counter eles. Telling me to auto attack spam and heal up is pointless. Also lf+eq is countered by 1 stunbreaker or evade. I dont think you play this class much.

Backstab thieves run hidden killer for the guaranteed crit on backstab. Didn’t ele’s just get a trait that makes them uncrittable in earth attunment?

Seems like a counter to me.

Two things:
1- this thread isn’t complaining about getting hit hard by an attack that was designed to deal large amounts of damage by a class that is supposed to deal large amounts of single target damage right?

2- why don’t mods lock these threads? They seem to love locking threads in which arguments arise and for Heaven’s sake you can smell the animosity in here all the way from the General Discussion sub forum, the title itself opens up argue potential

I wish this discussion were a bit more civil, but they all do have a point. Here’s a question: Why do they offer Berserker – or indeed collectively “glass” – amulets to everyone if it’s so written in stone that Thieves “deserve” to roll face over other glass players?

A lot of Thief proponents seem to conveniently forget that it’s a player on the other end too. With the merits presented in these kinds of threads in defense of mechanics like these is that Rock-Paper-Scissors is totally okay balance. I don’t think anybody has a problem with Thieves being bursty, if there was some kind of indicator that they have set up and can deal a sizable amount of damage now. Certain other game does this by combo points and another by placing a debuff on you. More specifically, there is often zero warning that you get jumped by a thief, especially if you’re already engaged in a fight. This is the problem that people have. It is really bad design, because it is easy to do and requires quite a bit of skill from the person in the receiving end. Oh, you have a latency spike when you get attacked, or your game stutters when you about face? Tough luck, you just lost because fighting a Thief is an arbitrary reaction check. My point is that a Berserker Thief deals too much damage in general over a short period of time, and any latency or frame lag issues exacerbate the problem. This can happen at any time depending on overall system load, or if there happens to be congestion in the data center.

Skilled players can do much, but not everybody who wants to PvP has the twitch reflexes or sub 100 ms connection to enjoy it. The burst happens too fast and despite some people seeing Thieves just filling their niche, it certainly drives away people from PvP. I don’t personally have a lot of sympathy for them. It’s a hated playstyle and appeals to certain type of player. I do hope more discussion took place and that A.net would ultimately level the playing field, especially when the game engine and the networking cannot offer the kind of framework needed to have a consistent experience. Until that happens, I don’t think “L2P” is very valid nor reasonable. I don’t play Engineer for similar reasons anymore. I used to, and it has flown under the radar for way too long. Certain mechanics leave little room for opponent to make a mistake, and it feels exactly like fighting a Thief; frustrating and insurmountable to someone not having spent hundreds of hours in practising just against that. Some people just want to play for fun. If that cannot be a part of the design considerations in PvP, then maybe, just maybe contemplating the possible meanings of “It’s windy at the top” is in order.

EDIT: I don’t think tweaking Backstab or Stealth fixes anything. This is something that has been done against the manifesto. Furthermore they should have understood the limitations of their engine by now. Imitating features from MOBAs without understanding the importance of steady graphical and network performance at all costs inevitably takes a toll on the gameplay. As a result, we get these threads that mean well derailed on a daily basis by crowds who all ultimately want the same thing: A consistent and competitive playing field. Oh, and nobody wants to give up their advantages either.

Oakwind.6187:

I wish this discussion were a bit more civil, but they all do have a point. Here’s a question: Why do they offer Berserker – or indeed collectively “glass” – amulets to everyone if it’s so written in stone that Thieves “deserve” to roll face over other glass players?

A lot of Thief proponents seem to conveniently forget that it’s a player on the other end too. With the merits presented in these kinds of threads in defense of mechanics like these is that Rock-Paper-Scissors is totally okay balance. I don’t think anybody has a problem with Thieves being bursty, if there was some kind of indicator that they have set up and can deal a sizable amount of damage now. Certain other game does this by combo points and another by placing a debuff on you. More specifically, there is often zero warning that you get jumped by a thief, especially if you’re already engaged in a fight. This is the problem that people have. It is really bad design, because it is easy to do and requires quite a bit of skill from the person in the receiving end. Oh, you have a latency spike when you get attacked, or your game stutters when you about face? Tough luck, you just lost because fighting a Thief is an arbitrary reaction check. My point is that a Berserker Thief deals too much damage in general over a short period of time, and any latency or frame lag issues exacerbate the problem. This can happen at any time depending on overall system load, or if there happens to be congestion in the data center.

Skilled players can do much, but not everybody who wants to PvP has the twitch reflexes or sub 100 ms connection to enjoy it. The burst happens too fast and despite some people seeing Thieves just filling their niche, it certainly drives away people from PvP. I don’t personally have a lot of sympathy for them. It’s a hated playstyle and appeals to certain type of player. I do hope more discussion took place and that A.net would ultimately level the playing field, especially when the game engine and the networking cannot offer the kind of framework needed to have a consistent experience. Until that happens, I don’t think “L2P” is very valid nor reasonable. I don’t play Engineer for similar reasons anymore. I used to, and it has flown under the radar for way too long. Certain mechanics leave little room for opponent to make a mistake, and it feels exactly like fighting a Thief; frustrating and insurmountable to someone not having spent hundreds of hours in practising just against that. Some people just want to play for fun. If that cannot be a part of the design considerations in PvP, then maybe, just maybe contemplating the possible meanings of “It’s windy at the top” is in order.

EDIT: I don’t think tweaking Backstab or Stealth fixes anything. This is something that has been done against the manifesto. Furthermore they should have understood the limitations of their engine by now. Imitating features from MOBAs without understanding the importance of steady graphical and network performance at all costs inevitably takes a toll on the gameplay. As a result, we get these threads that mean well derailed on a daily basis by crowds who all ultimately want the same thing: A consistent and competitive playing field. Oh, and nobody wants to give up their advantages either.

That was a beautiful post. Thank you for the organized flow of ideas, civilized tone and great exposition of some of the issues.

Indeed disregarding any threads regardless of content and condescendingly say “l2p” isnt going to fix this any time soon. Thief are certainly a class that have many inherent issues. All i see however, is a very small vocal crew that will go to any extend in order to sabotage any thread pointing out their imbalance and toxicness.

i really hope this thread can continue in this tone, your post has given me hope and is good to see people are starting recognize the problem.

You can’t balance a game to the lowest common denominator, or for people playing on subpar connections, competitive play just doesn’t work like that.

And referencing rogues in world of Warcraft, and their combo points is moot. Because their burst is ambush, which has no warning, and requires no combo points, and with shadow dance is useable out of stealth. Even more so, rogues can sit in stealth till they choose to come out, not just from melee or steal range, for the most part like in gw2.

I’m all for a discussion, so long as the points being raised are factual, and not biased.

Quick question, how do you think thieves feel about other thieves hitting them that hard? Considering our lower health pool? We aren’t immune to it either.

Now between stealth range, steals range, seconds you can effectively spend in stealth, aoes that are ground targeted such as necro marks, or ele fronts, knock backs, blocking mechanics, traits that make you unable to take a percentage of your health in one hit, new gm traits, like the ele’s that make them uncrittable, the key bind or ability to about face, the fact that 99% of thief openers are done after the steal, and before the cloak and dagger, or after the blind powder, and after the heart seeker….

Thieves don’t run around IN stealth and open with a backstab, unless it’s some cheese build in wvw, but that’s a different thing altogether.

Yet you’re still saying there’s. NO counters. At least acknowledge or argue the ones that are brought to your attention, rather than dismiss them or ignore them completely.

“It doesn’t work” isn’t an argument. Because many non thieves disagree with you.

You are only content if someone agrees with you.

I would like to point out that I mentioned said mechanics for context for the uninitiated, as exempli gratia. The mechanics governing stealth and overall pace of combat flows “better” in said Blizzard game, mostly because of healing, longer GCD and trinketing. No comparison was attempted, I repeat, I wanted to provide a frame of mind, if you will. Combo points are slightly better of an alternative to initiative, because it’s not a passive source of buildup. Shadowdance is a one trick pony if used as such, and I did play with and against such players quite extensively in the recent years

I do say that while it’s always fun to “mock the peasants”, you would do well to remember that the “professional” player will have no problem adapting to changes if they like the game itself. If a form of entertainment does not pique the interest of the audience at large, then it’s not a very successful form of entertainment, is it? I don’t see why the topic shouldn’t be discussed, or why we should expect status quo to be favourable for the players or Arenanet just because someone on the leaderboards says so.

“It doesn’t work” is an argument. It’s a good one too, as it captures what the poster in question experiences. It’s the mark of a civilized mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. You could have just written:

“I play a Thief, I disagree with you. I think things are fine as they are.”

I don’t think anybody really wants to destroy the profession in question. I think it’s appalling to even think that. I think the community as a whole would benefit if PvP wasn’t so unforgiving against certain mechanics which cannot be limited to just Thief ones.

EDIT: I apologise, I forgot to mention that I made the combo point reference under the assumption that we are talking about sPvP when discussing Guild Wars 2, and Arena PvP when entertaining a thought about the Blizzard game. The difference is quite crucial, because the latter is a TDM format, which we should not compare to Conquest. In TDM your eyes and mind are on the enemy, whereas Conquest requires more from the player.

Oakwind.6187:

…
“I play a Thief, I disagree with you. I think things are fine as they are.”

You’re forgetting that you’re on the an Internet forum… That line will go discredited so quickly with “That’s because you play/main a thief.”, or other junk… rarely there’s anything “civilized” on the Internet. And that is because of something called the “John Gabriel’s Greater Internet F__kw_d Theory”… Google it ;D I’m sure you can fill in the blanks properly. Unfortunately I can’t post the pic because i already got banned several times for it x.X’ .

Bowflex.4502:

You can’t balance a game to the lowest common denominator, or for people playing on subpar connections, competitive play just doesn’t work like that.

And referencing rogues in world of Warcraft, and their combo points is moot. Because their burst is ambush, which has no warning, and requires no combo points, and with shadow dance is useable out of stealth. Even more so, rogues can sit in stealth till they choose to come out, not just from melee or steal range, for the most part like in gw2.

I’m all for a discussion, so long as the points being raised are factual, and not biased.

Quick question, how do you think thieves feel about other thieves hitting them that hard? Considering our lower health pool? We aren’t immune to it either.

Now between stealth range, steals range, seconds you can effectively spend in stealth, aoes that are ground targeted such as necro marks, or ele fronts, knock backs, blocking mechanics, traits that make you unable to take a percentage of your health in one hit, new gm traits, like the ele’s that make them uncrittable, the key bind or ability to about face, the fact that 99% of thief openers are done after the steal, and before the cloak and dagger, or after the blind powder, and after the heart seeker….

Thieves don’t run around IN stealth and open with a backstab, unless it’s some cheese build in wvw, but that’s a different thing altogether.

Yet you’re still saying there’s. NO counters. At least acknowledge or argue the ones that are brought to your attention, rather than dismiss them or ignore them completely.

“It doesn’t work” isn’t an argument. Because many non thieves disagree with you.

You are only content if someone agrees with you.

Lol, can’t believe you have the audacity to say “You are only content if someone agrees with you”.

Ahahaha

Excuse me, I love a good irony. Thanks.

I don’t necessarily think things are fine as they are. I’ve never been asked, and I never thought it was relevant. All I’ve done is argue the point that there are no counters. Because there are…. Many, and they are effective.

Just because you choose to say “doesn’t work” doesn’t make it so. It works for many, myself included, I don’t just pvp on a thief.

Now if your posting on a forum, you’re opening up your thoughts to discussion’ “it doesn’t work” really isn’t a valid response.

Why doesn’t it work? Because you don’t know when or where to lay your aoes?

If that’s the case, you need a little more experience, because you can see the thief approaching, even before the steal, or the stealth. A fire ele can stand on a node and spam molten front all day when traited for reduced CDs in fire, can switch to earth attunment and be uncrittable. Or pre cast meteor shower.

A necro can stand on their marks. Including a mark that fears.

And engie can spam Bombs or grenades, relentlessly…….or use their thumper turret as the thief approaches or opens.

A guardian or warrior have effective blocks or access to retaliations, a warrior can fear a thief opening, or simply block apon steal, or before it. A thief would have to blow their heal as a stealth cover to stay in stealth to “ride it out”

A ranger can stand in their barrage, or traps….. Or take the talent to stealth themselves and apply protection apon a percentage of their health as damage.

A mesmer can stealth themselves, and receive protection, and regen, or take the talent that gives them distortion when opened up on.

Do I honestly have to suggest a dozen ways why “it doesn’t work” isn’t a valid argument?

There’s a runeset nightmare, that has a 60% chance to fear on hit for condi builds. If steal doesn’t set it off, the next hit will.

How do I know “it works” I pvp a lot on many classes, depending on what my team needs, and don’t have any issues adapting to glass cannon thieves or their stealth.

Now if you want to talk about blind spam, I’m on board. I think at the moment it’s overpowered, against melee. But that’s a different bag of tricks

I think it’s very relevant that a gentleman should convey his idea of how they perceive the status quo. It offers a shortcut for the savvy poster to gauge where they are coming from. Everyone can have an opinion really, and I think no less of you for yours.

Now, I do agree with you on the point of countering attacks from stealth, tentatively. You have to admit that there are professions better equipped for it, but the point still stands.

I think at this point I need to derail your argumentation with my original question: Why is everyone provided the Berserker amulet when it offers seemingly disproportionate advantage to the Thief? We know this isn’t strictly true, but how would you change this perception?

There are some classes who can build their traits quite defensively or use defensive runes, with a berserker amulet, and not be penalized a great deal for their survival or damage.

Yet a thief builds for berserker, is crushed and two shot by most, in or out of stealth, targeted or by splash damage.

Now build the thief defensively, don’t take berserker, take solider, try your best to build your traits defensively, and all you get is regen and condi removal (slowly)in stealth, the gameplay is the same from the thieves end. Now you’re just doing hardly any damage, and you still die, but now your 3 shot instead of 2 shot out of stealth.

Backstab hits for about 3k with a soldiers amulet., and a “balanced build” so it’s a scaling issue with the class. Because we can’t survive 5 seconds in combat, out of stealth, we are forced to do two things. Kill our targets fast, or stay out of sight so we aren’t intentionally hit. The latter being challenging on a node in pvp.

So to answer your question, whilst the damage side of the amulet seems like a giant perk for the thief. One would argue that why isn’t a berserker warrior, or guardian, or ranger ect penalized with a 10k health pool, and almost zero defense when running berserker? Should the offset in damage between a thief and say a berserker warrior, match the offset in health or survivability?

I’ve been hit for 15k by jump shot before, or 9k eviscerates, 6k ticks of meteor shower.
Most of a thieves defensive traits are in our stealth tree. And most perks such as condi removal, health regen, and now stability for 1 sec with the new gm trait. All require stealth. You get zero effect whilst actually fighting, where it counts.

I’m not Qqing, just trying my best to answer your question. I do well on my thief, and against thieves. I just dislike blanket statements like " there’s not counter" when there is…many.

Now, can we reduce thief damage? Sure, but then we have to up their survival quite a bit, because they can’t go toe to toe. Which would be fine with me. But the OP and most subsequent posts just call for nerfs, or throw “toxic” statements around.

Hell, at one point it was even suggested that the type of person who plays a thief is lazy ect ect, by the same person thanking others for their gracious and thought out input.

robocafaz.9017:

xbutcherx.3861:

I don’t know about you guys but is been long since I got a damage window pop-up upon death like the one on the OP screenshot. Looks like is an old screen shot for when Thieves were really deadly, or it is something in the options you can enable.

You can click to see the detailed death breakdown after you get killed. It just doesn’t show by default anymore.

Please tell me where because I can’t find how to enable it under options. nor General Options, Graphics options, Sound options or Control option.

It pops up as an exclamation mark icon on the right of your interface after you die. Just click it.

Bowflex.4502:

It pops up as an exclamation mark icon on the right of your interface after you die. Just click it.

Oh ok thanks

Thank you for the gentleman response and elaboration. Also mind that I refrained from claiming there’s no counter. Allow me to try to entertain everyone involved:

Funny you should mention Jump Shot. That’s an ability that for a glass Engineer hits at least as hard as the best Backstab, assuming both hits register of course. I always wondered why nobody complains about that, especially when it’s a leap, meaning it can trigger water fields and others. I’m sure I don’t need to spell it to you where I’m getting at.

The answer to why people get so worked up lies partially in perception and mostly in design. I find it extremely problematic that so much of the exchange concerning PvP focuses on imaginary 1v1 – just like the majority of forum exchange in MOBAs – instead of teamplay. In team games, Thieves have to work extra hard to do anything, while communication-deficient hotjoin- and solo-games reward them much more. To me it’s completely normal to switch away from Necromancer if I see a Thief on the enemy roster in solo-queue on certain maps because it’s a liability to me as a player. This is not something you can indoctrinate into the everyman-player. I mean, I myself get mad if I insist on Necromancer and decide to rely on teammates who don’t even care I’m there. If they do, a conditionmancer that is otherwise useless against a Thief becomes the enemy team’s undoing. “Peeling” should ring a bell.

Thieves have really poor defenses without stealth, and even their healing in HP is mediocre without an investment into a Shadow Arts XI. Again, an actual healing skill by a Thief makes their health bar rise rapidly, but the health even at max remains really low. Likewise, Shadow Arts IV is needed for condition removal, and that relies on stealth as well. The best survival traits and damage are all tied to the mechanic, and in the case of survival, the aforementioned traitline. I don’t really sympathize with Thieves, because I find them annoying to play against, and because the profession is really pidgeonholed. Or perhaps I should say I find it hard to sympathize with them. That would be a better expression I think.

The combination is awkward really, for the players on both sides of these debates. I fully understand the Thief community’s concern since everything revolves around Stealth, it’s traiting and applications. If people came to the Engineer forums with similar zeal to demand a nerf to Healing Turret, I’d be on the ropes too (not that they don’t already).

Back on point, despite the weaknesses and a stringent set of “must-have” traits, there are advantages to playing a Thief too. The superb damage that can appear from seemingly nowhere infuriates people when they have no teammates to rely on. Certain build variations also allow for endless trolling in good hands. The crux of the issue is that that the players that are in the receiving ends of the Thief’s toolbox feel it’s unfair, sudden, mean-spirited and twitchy. It’s all too easy to forget that they have to play this way or be worse than a Necromancer minion. A lot of the hate is also due – in my view – because of the way that Thieves can eliminate low-health targets, and this should not be omitted. The OP is correct in saying that such extreme numbers are toxic to the community because the last thing we need right now is people getting trolled hard, or feeling as though they have been bullied out of PvP. The larger audience is important to having a functional community that is spearheaded by competition, and not select few egos.

The point I’m trying to bring across is that the burst and Thief pidgeonholing into Stealth as the only alternative will proliferate bunker condition builds way worse than before once the PvP-naive players learn the ropes. That’s why it’s “toxic”, although I’d say “inflated” myself. We have seen the results of that arms race last year, and I’m tired of spamming grenades already. Then again, changing the burst or the Stealth would require pretty much rebuilding the entire profession, and rebalancing accordingly. We need to collectively let people post their opinions, inflammatory or not, so that Arenanet plans accordingly. Current gameplay balance for the everyman is pretty close to Rock-Paper-Scissors, and that’s really really lazy from a company that made such a bold manifesto. In addition, Thieves have almost no role in PvE, which is deplorable and a consequence of this design.

But again, how would you suggest players react to this? Do we really have a choice in our builds, regardless of the profession we choose?

Bowflex.4502:

I don’t necessarily think things are fine as they are. I’ve never been asked, and I never thought it was relevant. All I’ve done is argue the point that there are no counters. Because there are…. Many, and they are effective.

Just because you choose to say “doesn’t work” doesn’t make it so. It works for many, myself included, I don’t just pvp on a thief.

Now if your posting on a forum, you’re opening up your thoughts to discussion’ “it doesn’t work” really isn’t a valid response.

Why doesn’t it work? Because you don’t know when or where to lay your aoes?

If that’s the case, you need a little more experience, because you can see the thief approaching, even before the steal, or the stealth. A fire ele can stand on a node and spam molten front all day when traited for reduced CDs in fire, can switch to earth attunment and be uncrittable. Or pre cast meteor shower.

A necro can stand on their marks. Including a mark that fears.

And engie can spam Bombs or grenades, relentlessly…….or use their thumper turret as the thief approaches or opens.

A guardian or warrior have effective blocks or access to retaliations, a warrior can fear a thief opening, or simply block apon steal, or before it. A thief would have to blow their heal as a stealth cover to stay in stealth to “ride it out”

A ranger can stand in their barrage, or traps….. Or take the talent to stealth themselves and apply protection apon a percentage of their health as damage.

A mesmer can stealth themselves, and receive protection, and regen, or take the talent that gives them distortion when opened up on.

Do I honestly have to suggest a dozen ways why “it doesn’t work” isn’t a valid argument?

There’s a runeset nightmare, that has a 60% chance to fear on hit for condi builds. If steal doesn’t set it off, the next hit will.

How do I know “it works” I pvp a lot on many classes, depending on what my team needs, and don’t have any issues adapting to glass cannon thieves or their stealth.

Now if you want to talk about blind spam, I’m on board. I think at the moment it’s overpowered, against melee. But that’s a different bag of tricks

I hate to jump into a discussion, but your words made this come to mind: So, what you’re implying is that everyone should build to counter thief burst? Yet, last time I checked, there were other 7 professions one could be facing to take into account.

Fortus.6175:

Raingard.9063:

I hate to jump into a discussion, but your words made this come to mind: So, what you’re implying is that everyone should build to counter thief burst? Yet, last time I checked, there were other 7 professions one could be facing to take into account.

This is exactly what he and all thief players have been demanding of everyone; to build their builds specifically adn solely for countering thieves, disregarding everyone else. He even mentioned getting Heart of Stone for a glass cannon ele, 30 points into a trait line that gives toughness and condition damage, forsaking any sort offensive traits associated with offensive trait line. It only works in earth, an attunement that has no offensive capabilities all that for the sake of lasting a little longer, while the thief sacrifices literally absolutely nothing.

They are so self absorbed in their class that they forget they are not the only ones out there and there are traits that you simply cant afford, like Stone Heart (which is really deep, 30 points, like I said, and very situational) or skills that have an insane CD (such as arcane shielding which has 75 seconds CD, wont block a single backstab, as opposed to a backstab that can ignore all forms of defense and has virtually no CD).

They will hang from any sliver of a thread they can find to justify their class.

And you believe I’m exaggerating on any of my points please someone prove me wrong on how to play a truly offensive berserker ele attuned only on earth.

You can’t have a counter to everyone all the time. That isn’t balance.

Do you think a glass theif can take down a bunker engi, warrior, guardian or ranger? Not a hope in hell on their own, unless the other player is incredibly inexperienced. But am I here whining I want more damage, because the spec I play should be able to perform the same against everyone?

You don’t want to take defensive traits that’s your choice, but then don’t complain when you get annihilated by another glass build. Glass thieves get annihilated by them all the time.

Oh a meteor shower on my head, while I’m in stealth, I’m dead and you didn’t even see me. I was too busy trying to stay alive or stick to my target that I didn’t see you cast it from above me, or behind me, or anywhere at 1200 range.

And you mention “only attuned to earth” the idea is that you switch to earth when you see a thief get within stealth range! Or after he steals, or any of the above situations I’ve described over and over again. Don’t play everything down, you come across as a simpleton. And to say “while the thief sacrifices nothing” clearly shows you haven’t been paying attention, or can’t read.

And your attitude is toxic, you generalize players by what class they play. What do you expect to get in the form of a reply when you do that? They will hang onto a sliver, they are so self absorbed….ect.

Talk about toxic.

13k backstab is not toxic, insta cast steal is toxic.

Fortus.6175:

Im sorry, but a thief is not defined as tissue paper. Want to know what true tissue paper is? An ele with no stealth to disappear into. Thieves have low hp yes, but by no mean they are the easiest to kill class in the game, in fact, I would dare to say a well played thief is nearly virtually impossible to kill with the access to blinds/teleports/stealth.

this is true

Fortus.6175:

This is exactly what he and all thief players have been demanding of everyone; to build their builds specifically adn solely for countering thieves, disregarding everyone else. .

Try walking around without a stun breaker to see what a hambow warriors does to you.
Try walking around without ConD clear to see what a Necromancer does to you.
Try sticking close to a Engineer turrets to see how many red rings show in your foot.
Try staying still in presence of a Ranger to notice that the Pet actually hurts.
Try not paying attention to red rings with a Elementaris around.
Try killing a Guardian that doesn’t want to die. Alone.
Try fighting a Mesmer that knows how to hide in their own clones.
Try walking around without Vitality around a Thief around to see what he does to you.

No one says that you need to build around Thiefs to PvP.
But if you don’t, good luck if you find one.

Fortus.6175:

I tell them I was getting hit 11k-13k backstabs ALL GAME around, on several games from different people, and nobody believes me. Apparently I have to fill my pictures folder with 10k+ backstab screen shots to prove my point. And even then I beckon someone, somewhere, will find a way to turn a blind eye on it, nitpick on some other detail and then give me hell for it.

The problem with us believing you is that you aren’t getting hit by 10k+ Backstabs “all game around”.

If I succesfully predict when the thief is going to attempt backstabing and I evade him then I’ts unfair that he can just keep trying again and again until his stealth runs out.

I have no problems with stealth itself. The problem is that using a skill that gets evaded doesn’t break it.

Fortus.6175 as i see for your record in the forum, you really hate thieves.

It seems you use more the forum to complain about thieves than actually playing and learning mechanics.

I have also several screen shots of kill shot with a lot more than 13k in a cool range use.
I have also videos on youtube of elementalist 1 shooting people with the cool combo.
I hgave also videos of PU mesmer laughing of 4 people triying to kill something they don’t see plus 5 clones hitting them constantly.
I have also videos of warriors with . . . well a lot of warrios.

The problem as i can see it, is that you haven’t learn the simple mechanics of a thief in this years.

Why i say that, because dueling in the wind mill in wvw and playing SPVP i have found professions like guardians, kitten engis (hate them), and well of course warriors, that a thief can not simple kill when well played.

I will not tell you that i’m a pro thief, but i know every single build and rotation of my profession and i have almost 80% of my time in this game wasted on duels and roaming; with that said i can bet my account that almost every profession played on their maximum expression thieves are on bottom.

Trust me man . . . i don’t want to be rude when i say this . . but is a L2P issue.

SoLeciTO.3490:

Fortus.6175 as i see for your record in the forum, you really hate thieves.

It seems you use more the forum to complain about thieves than actually playing and learning mechanics.

I have also several screen shots of kill shot with a lot more than 13k in a cool range use.
I have also videos on youtube of elementalist 1 shooting people with the cool combo.
I hgave also videos of PU mesmer laughing of 4 people triying to kill something they don’t see plus 5 clones hitting them constantly.
I have also videos of warriors with . . . well a lot of warrios.

The problem as i can see it, is that you haven’t learn the simple mechanics of a thief in this years.

Why i say that, because dueling in the wind mill in wvw and playing SPVP i have found professions like guardians, kitten engis (hate them), and well of course warriors, that a thief can not simple kill when well played.

I will not tell you that i’m a pro thief, but i know every single build and rotation of my profession and i have almost 80% of my time in this game wasted on duels and roaming; with that said i can bet my account that almost every profession played on their maximum expression thieves are on bottom.

Trust me man . . . i don’t want to be rude when i say this . . but is a L2P issue.

While it’s undeniable that he has a special hate for thieves, IMO those who compare Kill Shot to Backstab can’t tell others to L2P. The risk/reward between the 2 skills are simply like heaven and earth. If you can’t tell why, you really shouldn’t tell others to L2P

On a side note, I still see a lot of thieves in denial of how stealth as a mechanic is broken. Even top tier thief and non-thief players loathe thieves who goes deep into Shadow Arts trait line (which focuses on stealth mechanic).

^ As Kyon said.

On a side note, Solecito, you can argue all you want that I “hate” thieves (which I dont,I just hate their toxic mechanics, the class itself is ok once they get rid of those bad parts) but truth of the matter is; it is for a reason. i have noticed a trend that it is mostly the same 4-5 thief players that will call out my name and defend thieves to the bitter end even when they know we are right. If you dont believe me check how many people actually support backstab/stealth/teleport spamming and how many of them dont (hint hint, look at the upvotes in this and all my supposedly “hateful” threads towards the class).

You cant smply deny something just because there is one active member calling it out whenever people forget about it. Just like most players in the game, I just want to see the game flourish and have as least grieving mechanics.

Lastly, dont you ever, ever compare an ele or warrior burst to a thief one. One has access to a mechanic that lets them cast the entire thing without any chance to retaliate or see, the other often involves several skills in quick succession, with setups, without stealth and with blockable/dodgeable/blindeable parts, with CD on the maginute of 40+ and no way to scape once it fails. Thieves dont suffer any of this, and we both know it too well. Stealth is single handily the strongest and most uncounterable (by a large margin) mechanic in the game, allows for the highest survival rate of any boon or condition, versatility of any boon or skill (yes, even better than invulnerability that can be stopped by some skills, is shorter, on higher CD, people can set up skills because they can see you and wont let you cast any skill). To deny any of this is a blatant lie, and very few classes have access to it, and none other than thieves can utilize it the best. Give them no CD, near infinite teleports and blinds, insane burst and disengage and you have a class that played well will always have the upper hand in any scenario (and please dont bring a 1v60 one, because no other class can go around them but thieves and some mesmers if lucky)

I mean this not in a any rude way, but I advice you to play GC that arent thieves for a while, such as ele or mesmers, not a game or two, but on the magnitude of hundreds and come to us and tell us again that thieves are fair.

Please just ask this question.

If stealth is terrible broken and the class is OP how then:

1.- Why people we see A LOT MORE owarrios and guardians than any class in WvW if thief is that good?

2.- Why a thief in SPVP since a long time is not even one of the top 5 profession to select in a professional match?

3.- Why thief is one of the most rejected professions with rangers at moment of creating a party for example to fractals.

4.- Why Every single profession when played by a good player and meta build can defeat a thief very easily, and they have say and made videos of that, look for 1v1 duels of top players in youtube with different professions.

The true is . . . people that keep complaining for thieves (always the same people like you my friend) is that they are very angry because they want to go full glass canon in WvW and kill everything they want.

Why i’m so sure, because i have teach myself a lot of people that use to complain about the same in this forum, and they finally understood that it was at the end a L2P issue.

Is like engineers and warriors, to me are kitten OP, but i do not come here and cry every time i got kill by them.

Some profession will and must be good to kill another specific professions . . . this is why you will never see a decent engi complaining for thieves.

Stop creating this threads, ANET knows that stealth is not broken or OP… that’s why they haven’t change the mechanic . . .

Do not confuse a mechanic to annoying that to be OP.

Do you think is fun to us that a warrior constantly stuns us?
Do you think is fun that a pu mesmer disappears 70% of the fight and still they are able to hit with phantoms?
Do you think is fun that is almost impossible to us to kill a spam engi running like a rabbit?

Stop crying man several people already told you is a L2P issue, start asking yourself why is that.

SoLeciTO.3490:

Please just ask this question.

If stealth is terrible broken and the class is OP how then:

1.- Why people we see A LOT MORE owarrios and guardians than any class in WvW if thief is that good?

I stopped right here, because you’re distracting from the actual conversation at hand: the design behind Stealth and Backstab. We aren’t talking about Guardian/Warrior hammer trains right now.

This is the kind of response that tries to defend the design that makes no sense and works against any sort of actual discussion. Unfortunately, it seems to be all too common.

If conditions are so good, why do we see Warrior/Guard power trains in WvW? Must mean that conditions are no good across any game type and are well-designed. QED.

(That isn’t how a real discussion works).

by the way look at this new thread . . . this is a healthy talk for a person asking for advices instead of yelling OP STEALTH BROKEN NERF!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Engineers-how-do-i-make-them-go-pop

Trust me man i do this with the best intentions because it seems you are not trolling.

Cogbyrn.7283:

SoLeciTO.3490:

Please just ask this question.

If stealth is terrible broken and the class is OP how then:

1.- Why people we see A LOT MORE owarrios and guardians than any class in WvW if thief is that good?

I stopped right here, because you’re distracting from the actual conversation at hand: the design behind Stealth and Backstab. We aren’t talking about Guardian/Warrior hammer trains right now.

This is the kind of response that tries to defend the design that makes no sense and works against any sort of actual discussion. Unfortunately, it seems to be all too common.

If conditions are so good, why do we see Warrior/Guard power trains in WvW? Must mean that conditions are no good across any game type and are well-designed. QED.

(That isn’t how a real discussion works).

Thanks you said exactly what i tried to say but my English is bad.

With this is mind . . . how a roaming thief that is only good against 1v1 and bad players can decide which server wins in a WvW match??

So you are telling us that a profession that is good to X, but that X does not affect the real goal of the game mode (WvW) is OP?

(That isn’t how a real discussion works)

SoLeciTO.3490:

Please just ask this question.

If stealth is terrible broken and the class is OP how then:

1.- Why people we see A LOT MORE owarrios and guardians than any class in WvW if thief is that good?

In terms of zerging, yes you’ll mostly see guardians and warriors because they can survive. In terms of solo roaming and ganking? Thieves are undeniably the best class there is.

2.- Why a thief in SPVP since a long time is not even one of the top 5 profession to select in a professional match?

Thief is not a top class in high tier PvP? Please watch more “professional matches” and see the answer for yourself whether they’re top dogs or not

3.- Why thief is one of the most rejected professions with rangers at moment of creating a party for example to fractals.

This is a case of elitism by pugs. On a side note, thieves are essential on organized/semi-organized speed run dungeon groups (usually Arah, CM, TA) because of how stealth gives the party the ability to skip through mobs.

4.- Why Every single profession when played by a good player and meta build can defeat a thief very easily, and they have say and made videos of that, look for 1v1 duels of top players in youtube with different professions.

Please do not even try referring to youtube videos. It has so many factors that are usually left out. People usually just put in the “good stuff” and leave out the “Bad stuff” aka parts where they get outplayed by others. So the video consists of player X killing 10 different players. But how many deaths did he get before he got those 10 kills?

Do you think is fun to us that a warrior constantly stuns us?
Do you think is fun that a pu mesmer disappears 70% of the fight and still they are able to hit with phantoms?
Do you think is fun that is almost impossible to us to kill a spam engi running like a rabbit?

I find this very ironic.

If you’re a thief and you’re having problems fighting against a skull crack warrior, you really should review your own playstyle.

You complain about PU mesmers abusing stealth. Isn’t that what thieves do as well?

How to counter a condi classes? Use the Shadow Arts traits

Now let’s get back to topic about Backstab Damage

Guess what is more toxic than stealth + back stab in-game? Thief apologists misdirecting discussions on the forums!

Kyon.9735 i never complain of anything, i like the balance of the game, is good not perfect.

I’m giving examples only, if you want to twist my words for your own purpose go ahead, i really don’t care.

Answers fors you:

1.- If is not all about zergs in WvW . . . then what i’m missing. Why would you need am astronaut in restaurant to serve food?

Zergs is the core of WvW, the only core to conquest the goal . . . castles and towers.

2.- There are a lot of good thieves in SPVP i follow them on streams and videos, but tell me if i’m wrong . . . a warrior, a guardian, a engi is MUST in any dream team . . . not many teams use thief anymore.

3.- hahahaha elitism . . . of course is what i’m saying since begging. This elitism exist because simple as that we will be never as good as a warrior or guardian in a party, and trust me i’m fine with that.

And come on man, don’t tell me that a stealth form a thief is a must in any dungeon, even necessary that would worth more than a mesmer with the cool teleport.

4.- This is the best one. HAHAHAHA man is what the thief community has been saying since day one. People see a video of 1 thief killing 3 upleveled people and they go crazy with OP STEALTH BROKEN MECHANIC!!

I came up with this because is one of the most used argument to declare that thieves are op.

For the last part. i repeat, i’m not complaining of the balance or calling other professions OP, the only think that really annoy me is the fact you have to create a topic every time you can not handle with a build, profession or meta 21415231315231516231623 times.

I have to fight severa, several fights against GOOD PU mesmers, Engis, and others good builds and warriors to increase my success in 1v1, because before i got killed by them very easily . . .

If you have the time to come here and just complain about this, use it better to learn how to play against a thief.

I invite you go to other sub forums and check how many complains are for other professions . . . a lot of QQ and not enough understanding.