Guild Wars 2

Overkillengine.6084:

Both the global +duration and -duration foods need a savage beating with a nerf stick; either enable outlier builds to reach unbalanced performance levels. Setting them down to +/- 10% would bring them back in line with all the other options.

Not only that, it would help make other food choices far more appealing and thus encourage diversity.

Currently all Condition builds use this Veggie Pizza because it is by far and wide the best and most powerful food around. But imagine it was only a 10% increase. Then suddenly a lot of other foods start look appealing as well.

It’s also add weight to the power vs applicability breakdown. Do you want +100 malice, dealing more damage, or +10% expertise, giving you more chances to deal the damage?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Ision.3207:

Rock solid post. Bravo +1

And it’s laughable how comparisons are being made between +40% condition duration and the, “imagine +40% crit chance or damage” …. wow, talk about comparing apples to oranges!

It’s a ludicrous comparison that requires a person to drop all the context of the difference between damage types, and their actual form of application and resulting damage over time. The +/- food is fine, and far-far from overpowered.

Silly me, the fact that pretty much all roamers run condition builds shows nothing wrong with them what so ever, personally i think all these sort of Food should be removed from WvW they should be left to PvE andf thats it. Other types of food that give X stat and and such are fine its the 10% Crit Damage and 40% Condition duration ones that are the problem

Conditions ARE the dominant build in WvW for anything other than Zergings and in that situation any build will do – its the numbers that win in the end anyway.

Look at the classes that can EASILY burst conditions onto people with a few button presses. Classes like Thief, Engineer, Mesmer, Necromancer have far to much access to conditions and far to much defense. Conditions DO need work, only those that run condition builds will say otherwise.

I mean condition builds would be fine, IF they weren’t so quick to kill people. They should be SLOWER to kill things rather than easily burst them dead without being able to do anything about it.

Condition Builds aren’t the dominate build in everything but Zerging…Bunker Builds are.

That’s what people aren’t getting, If you’re running solo..Unless you’re 3 very specific classes (Warrior/Mesmer/Thief) you cannot go Berserker and expect to win a lot of fights. If you go PVT you will not kill those 3 classes either, Because they’re way better at Zerker builds, and 2 of them can be very nasty with PVT builds (Mesmer/Warrior) So that leaves pretty much Bunker builds with Conditions.

By going these condition builds, You’re pretty much useless at zerging, Yes you can get bags by spamming AOE conditions, But you’re not actually doing anything in a fight. This is why most GvG trains are PVT hammer trains… and not condition trains.

So yes, heavily defensive builds that rely on attrition are very nasty in 1v1, They’re generally that way in every game.

But don’t pretend its cause Conditions..You see those Condition Bunker builds in the first place because of those main 3 classes, Esp thieves…Thieves are the primary reason you see Bunker builds solo in the first place. You think when I created BM Bunker I did so because I wanted to kill slowly? No..I did it because a Thief could instant kill me if I was anything but full Bunker.

Now is 40% condition duration overpowered? Not really…What’s overpowered is Condition Overflow…What I mean by that is to many conditions at once.

Take my TB Build, Its actually weak, even though I can put out a fairly good damage and cc, I lack enough conditions to cover my damaging ones. Simpy adding an extra condition or two even if they do no damage substantially ups the damage of the build. Look at Signet of Spite on a Necro….Damage wise, its terrible, Its 2 stacks of Bleed and Poison which will usually always be on the target anyway…What makes it bloody scary is the fact its 6 bloody conditions all at once…

But anyway..It’s pointless…Any change to condition duration food will result in the condition reduction food being nerfed as well, so the only people who really wouldn’t benefit from the change is people who don’t want to run anti condition food because it messes with them seeing big numbers with their Crit Damage builds + Power food

Terravos.4059:

Any change to condition duration food will result in the condition reduction food being nerfed as well, so the only people who really wouldn’t benefit from the change is people who don’t want to run anti condition food because it messes with them seeing big numbers with their Crit Damage builds + Power food

Some people don’t want to have to take condition removal/reduction into account when building so they can just go full on dps or dps/toughness. A change like this would certainly help them. I find it to be a very good thing for players to consider while building. If I go full glass on my mes/thief, I should be very weak to conditions. I run some cond removal to help make up for that a little bit. This would make me need to worry about that 20% less. Not a good thing for balance imo, despite it buffing my glassy mesmer’s/thief’s survivability vs. conditions.

Atherakhia.4086:

Tim.6450:

there is a cap for condition duration it’s 100%.

And it should be 40%.

Ok sure. But crit damage should be capped at 50%. Deal?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

So your only option is to run – what does that say?
Pretty much all the roamers i see are Condition builds or Warriors….What does that say about the “balance” this game has?

What does recommending that you run say? Well it say the players such as ourselves who have learned to build properly for what we desire to accomplish, such as countering conditions, dealing with direct damage, and managing the incoming CC will probably kill you very regularly. Solid players will have no more or less problem dealing with condition build then they will against CC builds, or pure damage builds.

You actually make it difficult to take you seriously, when you keep argue a point in which you are mistaken, and even though asked, still refuse to offer damage numbers on a condition build Vs a power build. Probably because you chose not to provide the facts yourself that will disprove your claim.

You further discredit yourself by inaccurately claiming “all” roamers are condi builds or warriors. The fact that you even pretend to know what build players are running on 51 servers is laughable. I am on JQ and play almost exclusively in WvW and my experience has been that I see many power engineers with rifle+CC, thieves, thieves, and more thieves, and the occasional mesmer, all much more then I see warriors. The difference is that is just my experience, you on the other hand claim to know what everyone uses as roamer on all 51 servers. You sir must be a rich man to transfer servers so freely that you know what all servers tend to roam with.

What does that say about balance in this game you ask? Well to me, it says you have a lot to learn about balance yourself, and the community will be glad to educate you.

If you care to PM me, I can direct you to threads of thorough testing that list the damage out put of popular condition builds of all professions, compared to popular direct damage builds. This may enlighten you to the facts that you appear to be unaware of. I suggest you are unaware of the facts simply because you repeatedly make broad claims that are inaccurate and quit literally contradicts actual facts that have come to be generally accepted.

If you wish to continue making your claims of disparages and imbalance, It would aid your position greatly if you at least supplied maybe one fact or numerical comparison to support it.

I’ve come to accept the condi meta but the recent Immobilize buff is over the top for me. Getting 10+ seconds immobilize is outrageous and uncalled for. I know it’s just 1 condition but if you have some other 5+ conditions on top of it, you’re pretty much screwed. They’re forcing players to run Melandru + Lemongrass just to counter enemies that go for condi duration and not all people use food all the time in WvW while others prefer some other food.

Like others said, maybe nerfing the condition duration would help other condition damage food be more viable. But before that, I’ll be happy if they revert Immobilize.

Remove food from WvW, that is the solution.

Then introduce Condi Dmg/Condi Duration/ Precision gear

Then remove the cap on condition duration

Then remove the stack limit on condition duration

The Condition specs finally won’t be completely worthless and can be taken into groups for a change.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Remove food from WvW, that is the solution.

Then introduce Condi Dmg/Condi Duration/ Precision gear

Then remove the cap on condition duration

Then remove the stack limit on condition duration

The Condition specs finally won’t be completely worthless and can be taken into groups for a change.

Yeah they would just be insanely overpowered. Imagine 2 – 3 even more full condi Necromancers using Epidemic on different people they have used Sig of Spite on, calling the targets first to get Engineers as well to burst them with conditions maybe a Thief or 2 and imagine it…

Conditions need work that is for sure, this would make them WAY to strong in WvW.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Remove food from WvW, that is the solution.

Then introduce Condi Dmg/Condi Duration/ Precision gear

Then remove the cap on condition duration

Then remove the stack limit on condition duration

The Condition specs finally won’t be completely worthless and can be taken into groups for a change.

Don’t want variety? Go do spvp. Pretty simple solution.

Don mess up wvw because of your inadaquecies.

Terravos.4059:

So… if I’m reading this right, You’re not wanting Condition Food in the game because it forces you to possibly use Anti Condition food?

kind of like how Condition Players are forced to go heavily defensive builds so they don’t die instantly to power build?

A lot of classes are forced to use -40% condition duration food because their condition countering abilities are dependent on the balancing whims of anet. Condition classes use toughness because it’s a reasonable answer to power based classes and they sacrifice little to use it since conditioning play styles only needs condition damage (and to a lesser extent precision) to deal large amounts of damage.

Conditions are better off spammed and the cap can nearly be achieved with food and traits alone. This makes toughness the only really logical option while there are plenty of other foods most classes can take but won’t because of how badly balanced condition damage is with removal.

Nerfing condition duration food is a bandaid fix imo and anet needs to introduce a way to counter conditions that is dependent on the players play style (a stat). As it is, you either have an obnoxious amount of condition removal or too little and this is something that I don’t see being balanced in a hurry.

I have to chime in on this because i use both frequently and run condi specs often.

Both sides are right.

+-40% is too much. It makes all other foods look weak in comparison. I was running a -60% condi shatter build and I can pretty much completely ignore conditions at that point.

On the other hand

Because both foods are available it’s really a moot point. Also tons of classes have specs that already have tons of condi removal. The class that really benefits from the food is ENGINEER. Other condi specs have a hard time getting really long durations but not condi Engineer specs. My mesmer struggles to get 20% into a condi spec but most engineers are running around with 100% duration and already long base durations.

IMO Engineers need some of their base durations looked at for condi’s and the foods should really be nerfed to +- 20% which would still be desirable.

If you nerf them to +-10% they’ll be relegated to trash tier.

Godmoney.2048:

Because both foods are available it’s really a moot point. Also tons of classes have specs that already have tons of condi removal. The class that really benefits from the food is ENGINEER. Other condi specs have a hard time getting really long durations but not condi Engineer specs.

Add warrior to that list. I have been playing dual sword warrior since Autumn 2012, when it was still rare as hen’s teeth. It is now perfect for all the situations, but can solo quite difficult content alone.

Deep cuts (10 points trait) increases bleed duration by +50%. Nothing is stopping for warrior to invest in to strength trait line which increases condition duration and wearing +condition duration armor (6x Lyssa is pretty solid choice with great synergy with signet of rage). The warrior condition base durations are already long e.g. sword auto attack does 8 s base duration, easily 16 s with any decent condi warrior build. Sword #5 does four 12 s bleed stacks. Sword #4 does up to five 12 s torment stacks. Longbow #5 does 3 s immobilize and whopping 6x 12 s bleed on a piercing attack (clearly overpowered skill).

So even without any points in strength trait line you get 50+40+10% = 100% bleed duration with fooddeep cuts trait+6xLyssa set. +60% for other condition. A few points to strength trait line for even added condition duration and you can maintain cripple using just sword auto attack. Now some “geniuses” in this forums are suggesting cripple should prevent dodging…

PS. I agree with the OP. Condition duration should be max +20% and min -20% from consumables.

Ision.3207:

coglin.1867:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

It is Overpowered, that should be enough for the condition food to be looked at.

Based on what fact? Just blurting out statements like this based on uneducated opinion is pointless. This is just as foolish as suggesting the devs jump at every crazy statement. Under your own expectation, Your account should be banned simply because I state that your a gold seller. Apparently based on this thread, information or fact is not required. A simple blind accusation should suffice. At least that is what you appear to expect.

I do not understand some of the blind statement being made here. It appears to me that a great many here appear to be okay with making uneducated statements.

Take any profession and put it in full “dire” gear, then list its damage out and explain how you calculate the damage per second. I will then build the same profession with soldiers gear, and show you haw the damage is comparable.

If you like and can show how zerker damage compares. Or even Rabid. But I can tell you one thing, it is very clear some of you speak out of totally ignorance to the knowledge of how much damage is actually done.

I challenge any of you to present an actual fact, to support the power of the heavens that some of you so blindly say condition damage is. A player has to reach 50% condition duration to even think about touching the damage of a P/V/T build, much less a zerker one. And still condi builds cannot do damage to objects, siege or doors.

Just for the record, blindly stating “40% is to much for just food.” is not a fact. I am curious just how 40% condition duration is too much. Please explain it.

Please present some numbers for us on a 50% condi duration builds damage compared to other direct damage builds.

Rock solid post. Bravo +1

And it’s laughable how comparisons are being made between +40% condition duration and the, “imagine +40% crit chance or damage” …. wow, talk about comparing apples to oranges!

It’s a ludicrous comparison that requires a person to completely drop all the context of the differences between damage types, and their actual form of application and resulting damage over time. The +/- food is fine, and far-far from overpowered.

There have already been numbers posted in this thread. Like how the + to ALL condition food is 40% while the food that gives a bonus to ONE condition is 15%. Or 30 trait points in a + condi duration line gives +30% and 30 points in a crit damage line gives +30%, while + condi duration food is +40% and + crit damage food is +10%.

If people dont understand how that doesnt make sense then i dont even know what else could be said about it.

I always use -40% condition duration on my guardian in WvW. Combined with -20% condition duration runes (Melandru, Hoelbrak, etc), the effect is very significant; at least for guardian that has low base HP pool. I don’t mind if it gets nerfed, as long as there’s some adjustment to HP pool.

As long as max crit damage is set to 50% this change is fine.

Without that it makes zero sense.

Sizer.5632:

There have already been numbers posted in this thread. Like how the + to ALL condition food is 40% while the food that gives a bonus to ONE condition is 15%. Or 30 trait points in a + condi duration line gives +30% and 30 points in a crit damage line gives +30%, while + condi duration food is +40% and + crit damage food is +10%.

If people dont understand how that doesnt make sense then i dont even know what else could be said about it.

There have been no comparative numbers posted. This is an old discussion. Intelligent players have done the math, played both sides of the coin here. Other threads have actual numbers comparing condition builds running this food compared to direct damage build. Condition builds DO NOT out damage direct damage builds. Not even close.

The reason your confused about why people do not underhand how this doesn’t make sense, well that is because you, like many others are making blind assumptions based on your experience of losing to a condition build, while the rest of us are going of actuals facts and already discussed and proven damage numbers.

Deniara Devious.3948:

I agree with the OP. Condition duration should be max +20% and min -20% from consumables.*

Okay, so I am curious. Why do you wish to restrict condition builds to being forced to focus on one condition only. Condition builds are already out damaged by direct damage by a great deal.

Monoman.2068:

A lot of classes are forced to use -40% condition duration food because their condition countering abilities are dependent on the balancing whims of anet. Condition classes use toughness because it’s a reasonable answer to power based classes and they sacrifice little to use it since conditioning play styles only needs condition damage (and to a lesser extent precision) to deal large amounts of damage.

It seems you have little knowledge or experience with condition builds. They need 3 stats. Condition damage, condition duration, and precisions. 30%+ of condition damage comes from traits or sigils that proc damage on crit. Condition builds without 50% condition duration or more, cannot even touch the damage od direct damage builds.

Monoman.2068:

Conditions are better off spammed and the cap can nearly be achieved with food and traits alone. This makes toughness the only really logical option while there are plenty of other foods most classes can take but won’t because of how badly balanced condition damage is with removal.

Lol, no they are not. Take an engineer for example. They have some of the worst condition removal of all the professions. Yet, if you “spam” them with all of your conditions, they can pop Elixir C converting all of them to boons. If you spam all of your conditions on a necro, they pop a transfer and put them on you. You apply a few and try to get them to pop transfer, then you can restack them.

No wonder some of you have a problem with condition builds in WvW. It appears your making horrible discussions in game play and losing fights.

Suggesting you “spam” conditions is about as intelligent as suggesting that C builds approaching another player for a 1v1 fight should spam all of their CC skills right off the bat.

What many people here are ignoring is the fact, that +40% condition duration is not only stronger than +10% crit damage numbers wise(even, if the character has 100% crit chance), but it also drastically increases the amount of controll, your character is able to dish out.
40% cond duration means, that 2 second immobilize is now a 3 second immobilize and that 5 second cripple is now a 7 second cripple.
Name one other food, which provides such a significant increase in numbers.

It’s not about comparing cond builds to physical builds here, it’s about comparing 40% food to other food.
If such high duration values are really needed, which I actually doubt, then the correct solution is to shave them off the food and place them somewhere else. The food as such is overpowered and it has been proven throughout this thread, while everyone, who’s defending the food talks about meta, condition builds in general, etc, but NOT about the food itself.

Especially seeing as the ferocity patch will bring down crit food to like +3% crit damage, it is of utmost necessity to also bring down the condition counterpart. Balancing the condition foods manages to both bring down cond builds to a similar level as physical builds after the patch, aswell as introducing a bit more equality amongst foods.

Also:

I don’t get this 40% condition food hate, direct damage gets 50% crit damage on default.

Of course, there is a baseline of 50% damage…
Else full knight gear would be utterly useless
Also, that 50% baseline crit makes +10% critical damage only that much worse than +10% cond duration.
1.6/1.5=1.0666
1.1/1.0=1.1
So a naked +10% crit damage increases the damage of critical hits by 6%, while a naked +10% cond duration increases the duration of conditions by 10%.
Now please don’t try to get into the comparison between fully stacked characters, it only gets worse for the crit damage, the higher the numbers go.
Thus, cond duration is already by itself way more powerfull than crit damage, not even including the added bonus of also improving control effects.

+10% duration =/= +10% condition damage… you need to get it up to the next 1 second for the condition to tick again for it to do any extra damage at all Vs. 10% crit damage increases it regardless of the current power etc. That increase of .1s in your example increased the condition damage dealt by zero, while the crit damage added 6%. By increasing the duration by 40% you may well be increasing the damage on only some of your skills.

immobilizes/chills/cripples do the effect for the full duration though.

The damage side of conditions is only an issue in solo/small group play anyways since larger groups will wipe those conditions so fast it’ll make your head spin. Even in those solo/small group situations, direct damage outdoes condition damage by quite a bit.

I 100% agree with the people that are saying that the rooting in this game needs to be looked at though. Stacking immobilize was a horrid idea. That’s a separate issue though. It’s not the food that’s the main cause of that problem though, it’s the fact that it now stacks. I don’t have problems with chills/cripples though (nor do I think most other players do). It’s just the kitten root stacking that needs to go.

@Aberrant, the problem is that there’s no way to buff conditions right now. The amount of Expertise one can get is crazy, and as a result conditions have to individually and baseline be quite weak.

Nerf the food to 10%, at best. Cap the total at 30% or so. And then buff conditions baseline, remove the stack limits, etc.

Carighan.6758:

@Aberrant, the problem is that there’s no way to buff conditions right now. The amount of Expertise one can get is crazy, and as a result conditions have to individually and baseline be quite weak.

Nerf the food to 10%, at best. Cap the total at 30% or so. And then buff conditions baseline, remove the stack limits, etc.

cap the total to 30% percent? there are traits which give 50% bonusses, runes can give up to 45% bonusses. No 100 % is the absolute minimum.

The other issue with the food is how binary it makes the performance on condition reliant builds….you are either king of the world or stuff on a rock depending on whether or not you and you opponent are using the current +40/-40 duration foods. If there is no variety it may as well just be baseline, or changed so that there actually is some variety.

Even though I use the +40% duration food profusely (still crunching down on my koi cakes from dragon bash), I wouldn’t mind this change at all.

It’s generally not too inconvenient to put 10 into the trait line for +10% condition duration and then take the +40% food to hit the 50% threshold. This is why incendiary powder for engineers used to be much better than it is now. You get the extra burning by 10 dipping, plus you were able to hit the 50% threshold. You can do the same thing now, but you have to spend 20 trait points instead of 10. Warriors can get up to +90% bleed duration with 10 points in arms if they use the +40% duration food.

I don’t mind using the food in WvW (I think it’s good to allow that to keep the mode different from PvP), but the 93-98% immunity to things like cripple and immob and such are a bit ridiculous. People are really forced into running these consumables due to their power (which also jacks their prices up), and I don’t want to play a game where having the best consumables makes you a winner.

20% is still a nice number that can make quite a difference… it would make you have to use the full 30 trait points in the condi duration line to bump it up to 50%, and you could only have about 75% immunity to some conditions, which is still quite strong.

If the numbers were changed to +/- 20%, then the people running these foods would actually see no difference in their battles (the +/- 20% values would still cancel out like the +/- 40% values), but people not running these foods wouldn’t be punished as hard.

Tim.6450:

cap the total to 30% percent? there are traits which give 50% bonusses, runes can give up to 45% bonusses. No 100 % is the absolute minimum.

At 100%, balancing immobilize, fear and confusion – especially the last – is already entirely impossible.

There’s no way you can balance confusion in such a way that a 3s confusion would be balanced, but if you blow it up to 6s it would still, be unless you assume the enemy also has -50% duration (in which case, why not remove both?).

There’s a reason so many run -40% food. We’ve reached a cold war like stalemate. The condition users cannot remove their +40% food and +10% oils because then their conditions last to short. The rest cannot remove their -40% food for fear of suffering long-lasting lethal conditions while their cleanses are down.

Both should go out the window.
Someone above said it right, stats already have an inherent balance, 10% ~= 100 points.
So if a food can give me 100 power or 100 malice, it should give me 10% expertise.

And so on.

If that is unbalanced, balance the stats. Don’t fix the symptoms on the food, fix the root cause instead. If we need 20% expertise for every 100 points malice then so be it, but that should be a global change then because the imbalance will still exist whether you correct it on the food or not.

The problem is that right now, we have +400 power food. Well, we don’t, we have +400 expertise (= 40%) food. But for balance’s sake, we’d need 400 power food. 400 malice. 400 toughness, etc.

We don’t have that, and for good reason.

Conditions could be so much stronger if that food wouldn’t make any buff cause all kinds of balance issues. :S

Carighan.6758:

@Aberrant, the problem is that there’s no way to buff conditions right now. The amount of Expertise one can get is crazy, and as a result conditions have to individually and baseline be quite weak.

Nerf the food to 10%, at best. Cap the total at 30% or so. And then buff conditions baseline, remove the stack limits, etc.

They’ve said before that they wouldn’t remove the stack limits because of technical reasons though didn’t they?

The base duration on some things would need to be increased for 10% food + 30% traits to make any difference… sounds like it would be a lot of rebalancing.

Wouldn’t nerfing it down to +10% make things like melandru/antitoxin/etc. runes more powerful? -25% duration on just your runes alone would allow you to use more power based foods and be more effective overall… traits like dogged march would be redic in combination with that plus the food duration change… unless I’m missing something?

Actually what it would do is tighten the ridiculously vast performance gap between the two extremes.

Split conditions.

Condition damage and condition control.

You can either increase the damage or increase he control.

In still in the ball park about putting immobilise as a CC rather than a condition

uh yeah no. Condi meta is already op as kitten. We need this anti scrub food to stay as is so power builds have a chance at the condi kiters.

Tongku.5326:

I have some questions for all you guys.

First let me say that I have been playing this game since beta, I am an avid WvW player, and have 6 out of 8 lvl 80s. My main is a guardian, but I also play necro, mesmer, warrior, theif and ele. My engi is 50 something, and I will eventually have a ranger too.

My experiences are as follows:

Condis vs my guard – negligible – amount of cleansing I put out is rediculous, and of course I run melandru with -40% food.
Condis vs my War – beyond negligible – this character is for all intents and purposses completely immune to chills, cripples, immobilize, and in addition converts other condis to boons and helps cleanse entire team.
Condis vs my necro – negligible – I use a power hybrid with as much cleansing as I can have and large healthpool. In a small engagement and prolonged fight, a condi stacker will be lucky to get my health to 50% before I down him/her.
Condis vs my mesmer – more effective – however this is in large part due to my personal build choice and if I get the jump on anyone, being condi stacker or not, its over for them period. If they get the jump on me, well, the better players will down me or make me run away due my poor cleansing.
Condis vs my ele – negligible – this is so bad that its down right funny, as my ele is a condi / support build. And I find it funny that I can down condi stackers with my condis.
Condis vs my thief – effective – however, again due to my personal build choices I play it glass, I kill quick or die quick, either way, this is due to my personal choice, not lack of ingame tools or build choices.

So what do you guys all do to die to condis so much ? I do not understand this, please help me understand. Do you intentionally build toons to be downed by condis to come here and make these complaint posts ? Do you not inturrapt ? Do you just stand there and let them kill you thinking you are in PvE on one of those outdoors boss fights where all you do is spam weapon skill 1 ?

On the 6 of my 80s I have multitudes of ways to deal with condis, granted some are easier then others, but are nonetheless available and I have played long enough to try them out and they are effective.

So if I can make effective anti-condi builds, why cant you ? I don’t get it.

Exactly. People just want to use their personal build without having to worry about cleansing. When in reality, most professions can shrug off conditions very easily with the right spec.

KarlusDavius.1024:

Split conditions.

Condition damage and condition control.

You can either increase the damage or increase he control.

In still in the ball park about putting immobilise as a CC rather than a condition

I would agree here. Make a choice. Shouldnt have both.

KarlusDavius.1024:

Split conditions.

Condition damage and condition control.

You can either increase the damage or increase he control.

I’d love it – would be able to specialise in condition control in a power build – thus maybe having some use in a bus

Terravos.4059:

kind of like how Condition Players are forced to go heavily defensive builds so they don’t die instantly to power build?

Forced? People HASTILY CHOOSE to go Condi bunker because its maximum damage combined with maximum tanking, also known as broken.

You’ve also never heard of the Rampager’s stat. Power prec Condi.

Conditions on auto attacks, extra conditions from sigils, extra duration from weapon stat, extra duration from runes, extra duration from sigils, extra duration from traits, extra duration from food.

^ It is a messy business, and way more powerful than power builds, even with lemongrass involved.

Aberrant.6749:

Sizer.5632:

Its great that you figured out how to spec your classes but none of that has anything to do with condi duration food having too high of a value. This isnt a thread about “OMG CONDITIONS ARE OP”, its about how 40% is just a silly number that doesnt make sense compared with the other ways to get +/-% condi duration in the game currently. 10-20% would make a lot more sense.

If there were +40% crit damage food I bet people would have an issue with that too.

But even with the 40% duration food conds don’t come close to direct damage dps…

normaly that would be the case but there s some conditions that were meant to have short durations like stun and confusion heck lets suppose you’re fighting a condi bomber and had to use your cleanses but then comes someone and stacks 3 10 second immobilizes on you even if you use your usually 3s blocks or whatever you’re still gonna be immobilized for over 20 seconds

thaooo.5320:

Terravos.4059:

kind of like how Condition Players are forced to go heavily defensive builds so they don’t die instantly to power build?

Forced? People HASTILY CHOOSE to go Condi bunker because its maximum damage combined with maximum tanking, also known as broken.

You’ve also never heard of the Rampager’s stat. Power prec Condi.

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Conditions on auto attacks, extra conditions from sigils, extra duration from weapon stat, extra duration from runes, extra duration from sigils, extra duration from traits, extra duration from food.

^ It is a messy business, and way more powerful than power builds, even with lemongrass involved.

Your first point is simply not true. Conditions don’t do more damage than direct damage builds. Direct damage does more over time and more burst than condition damage. At the same time the stats you get from condition and power tanking builds are literally the same stats. Soldiers gives vitality and toughness, dire gives vitality and toughness. Also, most condition builds require crit procs to get maximum damage meaning one needs to invest in precision to do max damage, which still isn’t close to direct damage builds. Rampager’s is hybrid power and condition build by definition. It’s also extremely glassy.

Your last point is also just wrong. -40% condition duration reduces condition damage 40% regardless of if you have +40% condition duration. The – duration is multiplied in. It is not additive. Conditions in wvw are only good for roaming, and by contrast are terrible in team fights with tons of aoe cleanses.

^ Please actually test the damage output of soldier gear compared to dire gear. Yes the stat number on gear is the same, the actual damage dealt is no where near similar, it is frighteningly skewed.

And don’t forget that direct damage requires 100% active playing and is much easier to avoid continual incoming damage (blind, block, dodge, shadowstep, stealth, positioning, CC, invulnerability, evasion), where conditions once applied (from 1 very simple ranged/ranged aoe hit) deal huge damage that only has one counter, condition removal.

Rezzet.3614:

Aberrant.6749:

Sizer.5632:

Its great that you figured out how to spec your classes but none of that has anything to do with condi duration food having too high of a value. This isnt a thread about “OMG CONDITIONS ARE OP”, its about how 40% is just a silly number that doesnt make sense compared with the other ways to get +/-% condi duration in the game currently. 10-20% would make a lot more sense.

If there were +40% crit damage food I bet people would have an issue with that too.

But even with the 40% duration food conds don’t come close to direct damage dps…

normaly that would be the case but there s some conditions that were meant to have short durations like stun and confusion heck lets suppose you’re fighting a condi bomber and had to use your cleanses but then comes someone and stacks 3 10 second immobilizes on you even if you use your usually 3s blocks or whatever you’re still gonna be immobilized for over 20 seconds

Stun isn’t a condition and isn’t increased by + condition duration. Confusion seems pretty well balanced to me (outside of perplexity runes which are still a little strong, but not as redic as they were before). Immobilizes problem is that it now stacks. It’s the runes/stacking mechanics that are the problem and not the food (imo).

zapv.8051:

Your last point is also just wrong. -40% condition duration reduces condition damage 40% regardless of if you have +40% condition duration. The – duration is multiplied in. It is not additive. Conditions in wvw are only good for roaming, and by contrast are terrible in team fights with tons of aoe cleanses.

Afaik it’s additive. +40% is completely countered by -40%. If it were multiplicative the -40% would be even stronger than the +40% (ex 1s->1.4s (with +40 food)->0.84s(with -40% food and +40% food) Got a video or something to show?

thaooo.5320:

^ Please actually test the damage output of soldier gear compared to dire gear. Yes the stat number on gear is the same, the actual damage dealt is no where near similar, it is frighteningly skewed.

And don’t forget that direct damage requires 100% active playing and is much easier to avoid continual incoming damage (blind, block, dodge, shadowstep, stealth, positioning, CC, invulnerability, evasion), where conditions once applied (from 1 very simple ranged/ranged aoe hit) deal huge damage that only has one counter, condition removal.

You can avoid the application of conditions through blind, block, dodge, shadowstep, stealth, positioning, CC, invulnerability, evasion as well. Not only that but you can use -condition duration to reduce the damage after that and remove the condition.

Aberrant.6749:

Rezzet.3614:

Aberrant.6749:

Sizer.5632:

Its great that you figured out how to spec your classes but none of that has anything to do with condi duration food having too high of a value. This isnt a thread about “OMG CONDITIONS ARE OP”, its about how 40% is just a silly number that doesnt make sense compared with the other ways to get +/-% condi duration in the game currently. 10-20% would make a lot more sense.

If there were +40% crit damage food I bet people would have an issue with that too.

But even with the 40% duration food conds don’t come close to direct damage dps…

normaly that would be the case but there s some conditions that were meant to have short durations like stun and confusion heck lets suppose you’re fighting a condi bomber and had to use your cleanses but then comes someone and stacks 3 10 second immobilizes on you even if you use your usually 3s blocks or whatever you’re still gonna be immobilized for over 20 seconds

Stun isn’t a condition and isn’t increased by + condition duration. Confusion seems pretty well balanced to me (outside of perplexity runes which are still a little strong, but not as redic as they were before). Immobilizes problem is that it now stacks. It’s the runes/stacking mechanics that are the problem and not the food (imo).

zapv.8051:

Your last point is also just wrong. -40% condition duration reduces condition damage 40% regardless of if you have +40% condition duration. The – duration is multiplied in. It is not additive. Conditions in wvw are only good for roaming, and by contrast are terrible in team fights with tons of aoe cleanses.

Afaik it’s additive. +40% is completely countered by -40%. If it were multiplicative the -40% would be even stronger than the +40% (ex 1s->1.4s (with +40 food)->0.84s(with -40% food and +40% food) Got a video or something to show?

thaooo.5320:

^ Please actually test the damage output of soldier gear compared to dire gear. Yes the stat number on gear is the same, the actual damage dealt is no where near similar, it is frighteningly skewed.

And don’t forget that direct damage requires 100% active playing and is much easier to avoid continual incoming damage (blind, block, dodge, shadowstep, stealth, positioning, CC, invulnerability, evasion), where conditions once applied (from 1 very simple ranged/ranged aoe hit) deal huge damage that only has one counter, condition removal.

You can avoid the application of conditions through blind, block, dodge, shadowstep, stealth, positioning, CC, invulnerability, evasion as well. Not only that but you can use -condition duration to reduce the damage after that and remove the condition.

Nevermind I’m wrong. Thought I had read somewhere that reduction was multiplicative, but it isn’t. Everything is apparently additive.

Aberrant.6749:

Wouldn’t nerfing it down to +10% make things like melandru/antitoxin/etc. runes more powerful? -25% duration on just your runes alone would allow you to use more power based foods and be more effective overall… traits like dogged march would be redic in combination with that plus the food duration change… unless I’m missing something?

I would reduce all the other +/- condition effects, too.

Something as powerful as -25% incoming condition duration would maybe exist, but as a 6-runes bonus.

thaooo.5320:

^ Please actually test the damage output of soldier gear compared to dire gear. Yes the stat number on gear is the same, the actual damage dealt is no where near similar, it is frighteningly skewed.

Perhaps you should test it yourself. Your the one claiming it is OP when it does less then direct damage. The damage comparison numbers have been posted in other threads that you apparently missed. I have yet to see you or any of your cohorts Post one actual damage number or damage comparison fact here yet, to support your argument.

And don’t forget that direct damage requires 100% active playing and is much easier to avoid continual incoming damage (blind, block, dodge, shadowstep, stealth, positioning, CC, invulnerability, evasion), where conditions once applied (from 1 very simple ranged/ranged aoe hit) deal huge damage that only has one counter, condition removal.

Wait, what? Now all of the sudden your suggesting blinds, blocks, dodges do not negate condi damage? Condi damage hits stealthed players when direct damage doesn’t? Being CC’ed doesn’t prevent condi damage out put?

thaooo.5320:

Conditions on auto attacks, extra conditions from sigils, extra duration from weapon stat, extra duration from runes, extra duration from sigils, extra duration from traits, extra duration from food.
.

You have no clue what your talking about. I have all professions to 80 (almost all leveled in WvW alone) but I main an Engineer. I literally only have 2 main hand weapons choices in my profession. Rifle, or pistol. Pistol is the only of the 2 that is condi damage. You are sitting here specifically mentioning auto attacks. Pistol #1 with 30 points in the condi damage trait line, all ascended dire trinkets, ascended armor, ascended weapons, and a full set of condi damage stat runes, the Auto attack does 128 direct damage against 2600 armor and a 2s bleed for 264. That is a total of 392. If you think 392 is awesome enough damage that you feel the need to mention it specifically, then I dunno what your thinking.

You clearly do not have the slightest idea what condition damage can or cannot do. If I put 10 points into my power line, which is also my plus condition duration line, and use the food your crying about, I can boost that up to a whopping 524. Power engi with the rifle auto attack is with full P/V/T gear is 751

Now take warrior in all P/V/T gear with a hammer. thier auto attack is what? 989 / 989 / 1,318………………………………… SO please tell me, seriously tell me, how the condition engineers auto attack with it’s all mighty and powerful conditions are the over powering damage with condition food here?

zapv.8051:

Nevermind I’m wrong. Thought I had read somewhere that reduction was multiplicative, but it isn’t. Everything is apparently additive.

No worries at all

Carighan.6758:

I would reduce all the other +/- condition effects, too.

Something as powerful as -25% incoming condition duration would maybe exist, but as a 6-runes bonus.

Ok I would be fine with it then ^^ It just sounds like it would be a LOT of re-balancing… but for the sake of the game it may well be needed.

-25% for a 6th is on par with melandru and would be ok with how things currently are if there isn’t any other -cond duration on the set. If it winds up making the total set -50%… that’s too strong.

Or just who gives a kitten because wvwvw is the backwater of skill and balance shouldnt take it into account.

Because the one point capture sPvP game mode with extremely limited stat options doesn’t fascinate everyone over 1 year into the game…

Aberrant.6749:

Carighan.6758:

@Aberrant, the problem is that there’s no way to buff conditions right now. The amount of Expertise one can get is crazy, and as a result conditions have to individually and baseline be quite weak.

Nerf the food to 10%, at best. Cap the total at 30% or so. And then buff conditions baseline, remove the stack limits, etc.

They’ve said before that they wouldn’t remove the stack limits because of technical reasons though didn’t they?

The base duration on some things would need to be increased for 10% food + 30% traits to make any difference… sounds like it would be a lot of rebalancing.

Wouldn’t nerfing it down to +10% make things like melandru/antitoxin/etc. runes more powerful? -25% duration on just your runes alone would allow you to use more power based foods and be more effective overall… traits like dogged march would be redic in combination with that plus the food duration change… unless I’m missing something?

Balance is an interesting dynamic.

Yes, if things were straight-forward then stuff like Melandru Runes might be considered OP.

But the thing is, the less threatened people feel by conditions, the less likely it is for them to stack counters.

On my WvW Zerg Warrior 2 of my utilities, 1 of my traits, my entire Rune set and my Food is all dedicated to countering conditions.

If however I felt less threatened by them, say for example if the food was nerfed, then I too might see less need to stack heavy condition counters. Instead I might opt for Endure Pain or replace Cleansing Ire with something else. I would certainly stop using -Condition duration food because that kitten’s expensive.

So at the end of the day, conditions used against me would be MORE effective than they are now because I’m not longer forced to dedicate so much towards countering them.

To use the Cold War analogy.

Yes, if you reduced your nuclear stockpile it would put you at a momentary disadvantage.

But your opponent would also see less need to stockpile weapons and might dedicate some of his resources elsewhere.

In the end you may still come out on top.

Plus right now there is an unhealthy level of hyper specialization going on that the extreme values on the +/- 40% food is enabling and thus killing any real build variety.

Lemongrass – ~30s. Koi cake – ~2s. Not sure if -40% condition food need any nerfs.

Andele.1306:

Or just who gives a kitten because wvwvw is the backwater of skill and balance shouldnt take it into account.

I’m sorry ,but compared to sPvP, Queensdale normal mobs kill is a good indication of balance. If you seriously think that smallscale PvP can be a useful balance point in a MMORPG, you got much bigger issue than whether your buff food is balanced or not. :P

the +/- condi duration foods need to be toned down, the % does not match relatively well to any other scale in the game i.e

• other foods that give 15% to ONE condition.
• a TRAIT line – this 1 food is somewhat closely equal 30 trait points of stats.
• Any countermeasure via armor – melandru gives -25% condi duration, hoelbrak gives -20%, only real negation is the lemongrass food turning this into a silly cold war.
• Boon duration food in comparison is +20% and gives magic find bonus, not a combat stat like the pizza gets with condition damage.

This food is enabling the condi-tank warrior engineer and necro too much damage, the prominence of this food use is proof alone.

Don’t rely on conditions to do your damage. The condition “meta” has been around for ages and people have figured out how to deal with it. Move along to pure damage builds and after a while you can go back to your condi builds.

One of the main complaints for warrior is that heal sig is to strong. Next its going to be that they remove conditions to easily because of cleansing ire.

Atherakhia.4086:

Tim.6450:

there is a cap for condition duration it’s 100%.

And it should be 40%.

50% seems good, as it’s the current max you can get in spvp.

K U T M.4539:

Atherakhia.4086:

Tim.6450:

there is a cap for condition duration it’s 100%.

And it should be 40%.

50% seems good, as it’s the current max you can get in spvp.

But the condi meta is out of control in PvP, so clearly that won’t work.

I still think the best thing for this game is to just set an actual cap to +/- duration. This way classes with traits can use traits. those without can use food. If you use all of the above you’re not throwing the whole game out of whack forcing everyone else to run max as well.

What that cap is, couldn’t care less… 20/40/50 etc.