Guild Wars 2

I’m for it, but i think it’d have to be only on block/blind, not on evade. I reserve the right to change my mind, though.

Ah, that’s what I mean by miss, when they are blinded, sorry about the confusion, i’ll update the post.

I agree.

I’d even have it on the evade tbh. Why not? You have to use endurance to avoid the attack, no reason the stealthed person shouldn’t have to give up something too, eg. stealth. I mean you’re deliberately counter playing them and it doesn’t hurt their gameplay at all.

Yeah, certainly on block! The defender used something to block the hit and realizes where the attacker is.

On miss only if it was triggered by the defender and i don’t think that would be easy to distinguish.

On block definitely makes sense and sounds fair.

Evade, not sure.

Acandis.3250:

I’m for it, but i think it’d have to be only on block/blind, not on evade. I reserve the right to change my mind, though.

I agree 100%. Or even fix the ridicolous perma stealth & infinite teleport thief. There was already a lot of good suggestions to fix this (without breaking the thief).

I also think that a leap/teleport should require a target (This also applies to insane mobility warriors).

As a thief player, I completely agree. Perma stealth is such a bad mechanic. Makes it laughably easy for me to win on my thief.

Agreed. Should definately reveal on block. Sounds just fair to me.

It shouldn’t reveal on miss however, since there is no “physical” contact between the attacker and the attacked one.

Agreed; on evade, on miss and on block. If the person is actively trying to counter the attack then it should be rewarded specially since it takes a WHOLE lot of experience and skills in order to pop the evade/blind/block at the right time considering there is absolutely no counter to stealth, and the stealthed person currently loses absolutely nothing in the current way of things

i think on blocks and blinds, sure. not sure how i feel about getting revealed because someone is spamming all their endurance though.

Only if warriors lose all adrenalin when they miss their burst.

Fortus.6175:

Agreed; on evade, on miss and on block. If the person is actively trying to counter the attack then it should be rewarded specially since it takes a WHOLE lot of experience and skills in order to pop the evade/blind/block at the right time considering there is absolutely no counter to stealth, and the stealthed person currently loses absolutely nothing in the current way of things

actually because there’s no way to read the thief’s actions from stealth, flailing on the ground wasting all your evades doesn’t take skill. putting up aegis or a block skill, or blinding your surroundings, that’s actual counterplay.

evades are something you use to avoid a tell from another attack. a block/blind is to prevent any attack, countering it instead of moving out of the way.

that’s how i see it at least.

So… you had a chance to prevent the thief from stealthing and failed to stop him (only one you can’t prevent is the blinding powder utility). Now after risking 5/9 ini or popping a utility, some of you feel they should be easily countered by a block/blind/dodge? That would kill the thief class. No thief would ever be able to kill a non-afk guardian ever. Even just reveal on block alone would cause that. That’s not at all a balanced request.

Aberrant.6749:

So… you had a chance to prevent the thief from stealthing and failed to stop him (only one you can’t prevent is the blinding powder utility). Now after risking 5/9 ini or popping a utility, some of you feel they should be easily countered by a block/blind/dodge? That would kill the thief class. No thief would ever be able to kill a non-afk guardian ever. Even just reveal on block alone would cause that. That’s not at all a balanced request.

If you can’t kill guardians without stealth then you probably need to try something else, seriously. Don’t mean to insult, but many of us thieves can kill guardians without stealth.

Sanduskel.1850:

Aberrant.6749:

So… you had a chance to prevent the thief from stealthing and failed to stop him (only one you can’t prevent is the blinding powder utility). Now after risking 5/9 ini or popping a utility, some of you feel they should be easily countered by a block/blind/dodge? That would kill the thief class. No thief would ever be able to kill a non-afk guardian ever. Even just reveal on block alone would cause that. That’s not at all a balanced request.

If you can’t kill guardians without stealth then you probably need to try something else, seriously. Don’t mean to insult, but many of us thieves can kill guardians without stealth.

Sup San! I see you’re taking time away from the thief part of the forums. Sorry I wasn’t more explicit with what I meant. I don’t mean to insult but I thought it was very obvious. No thief that uses stealth would be able to. Thieves have a lot tied to stealth. A change like this would wreck that part of the class and require a full redesign of several traits/traitlines. Otherwise just toss the dagger oh out the window and the d/p set as well.

I would love to see your skilled thief gameplay btw. Please post it up in the thief section or here.

Hope that clears things up for you and I can’t wait to see it

How about no. Just stop whining for nerfs for thief and l2p. If you say you don’t need to learrn to play then you can deal with blocking and not being revealed because you now know where they are.

BRMV, your reply is very constructive.

It is not a matter of “L2P”.
It is not whining for nerfs for thief.
Blocking does not tell you where they are, only that they could be in any position around you at that moment.

This change is for [all] and will affect any class that happens to be in stealth.

Blocking should cause revealed, because;
Being blocked counts as a hit, this should proc revealed and remove stealth, however, as it currently is, it doesn’t.

Why should any class spam and an endless amount of hitting attacks while in stealth with zero ill effects, it renders the point of a block very close to pointless against an opponent with stealth.

/Thank you-Come again.

Stealth already got huge counters. If you dodge/block/blind/aegis CnD or interrupt HS in BP the thief cannot enter stealth and looses 50+% initiative. If a thief enters stealth you can kite away to prevent getting hit at all by backstab. You can also area denial around you so the thief would be punished for attacking you from stealth.

Getting revealed on miss/block on top of all those counters would render stealth completely useless against most professions with good access to aegis/ blocks. The change would provoke skilless passive counterplay.

Btw many block skills already counter stealth almost entirely due to the duration. Evade once then block for 3s is enough time to survive the whole 4s stealth.

Natsu Dragneel.1625:

BRMV, your reply is very constructive.

It is not a matter of “L2P”.
It is not whining for nerfs for thief.
Blocking does not tell you where they are, only that they could be in any position around you at that moment.

This change is for [all] and will affect any class that happens to be in stealth.

Blocking should cause revealed, because;
Being blocked counts as a hit, this should proc revealed and remove stealth, however, as it currently is, it doesn’t.

Why should any class spam and an endless amount of hitting attacks while in stealth with zero ill effects, it renders the point of a block very close to pointless against an opponent with stealth.

/Thank you-Come again.

Lets look at it from a gameplay pov.

You would have one opportunity to block a c&d (1/2s cast time with obvious animation) then up to 3s to block after as well. In the first case you’ve caused the thief to lose a large chunk ini, denied stealth, and the subsequent backstab. In the second case you’ve missed the first chance, denied the backstab damage, and revealed the thief. That’s too win-win for the blocker.

It’s not endless… the stealth will wear off and backstab has an animation time .

Against Aegis? NO. Against manual blocking, and evades? Yes, I agree. Against Blind debuff… I don’t see why not.

The only problem I see with all this is that it will nerf thieves, and thieves do not need pvp nerfs… not without compensation.

If this is to happen, backstab damage and any other stealth attack need to be buffed by ~50%. High risk vs. high reward, anything else would just be a straight out nerf. You’re still in for that change?

If blocks cause reveal, then make channeling skills stop hitting when thieves go to stealth.
It makes sense also, no?

laquito.5269:

If this is to happen, backstab damage and any other stealth attack need to be buffed by ~50%. High risk vs. high reward, anything else would just be a straight out nerf. You’re still in for that change?

So stealth attacks are risky now? lol

And btw I agree with OP. In every MMO, stealth is a very strong mechanism and if you compare GW2 with others games, GW2 is very stealth friendly… maybe too much.

Entering stealth already is high risk, because when you miss CnD you loose 50% initiative.

Engaging while stealthed also is high risk, because you eat full damage from cleaves and AOE while stealthed.

So yep, stealthing is risky right now. But the risk is much lower when your opponent doesn’t have a clue what he’s doing.

Kanenas.4906:

If blocks cause reveal, then make channeling skills stop hitting when thieves go to stealth.
It makes sense also, no?

Yes it can be a comprehensive counterpart. Let’s make stealth more logical!

teg.1340:

Engaging while stealthed also is high risk, because you eat full damage from cleaves and AOE while stealthed.

Still less risky than engaging while not stealthed…

It’s amazing how people think this would be a good change that would balance out the thief. It will do nothing less than destroy any dagger based builds, mainly D/D which already has so many counters.

With this change, every time the thief manages to stealth you just have to do 1 thing: pop aegis or a blind and you can just sit back and wait while the thief either reveals himself or waits out the duration of the stealth and does no damage at all, while any of your AoE/cleave can still hurt him significantly. Counterplay to the thief will be so laughably easy because a good player can punish a revealed thief really fast. Basically you’ll be locking the thief out of its burst, and without it they might as well not exist.

Suggesting this idea or even agreeing to it just shows how many people have absolutely no clue about thief mechanics or have the insight to see how destructive these proposed changes would be to the thief class.

Something that could use some changes is the easy access on stealth on D/P. If anything needs more counters then that’s the weaponset to look at.

meikodesign.6471:

teg.1340:

Engaging while stealthed also is high risk, because you eat full damage from cleaves and AOE while stealthed.

Still less risky than engaging while not stealthed…

Other professions have plenty of tools available to compensate risk: High HP, high armor, blocks, invulns, aegis, protection, regen, weapon skill heals, leaps, pets/illusions, aoe area denial, …

Thieves got non of those, but stealth. Deal with it!

Block, yes

Evade/miss, no.

I agree with revealed being applied on block; the stealth attack makes contact with the target. All classes, including guardians, have limited access to blocks, unlike some thieves/mesmers which can continually control a situation by stealthing over and over with relative ease. Additionally, blocking animations for every class is not difficult to distinguish.

As for miss/evade I disagree. The stealth attack doesn’t make contact with the target. Also, several classes have great access to vigor/blind, so the revealed debuff from a missed/evaded attack from stealth would be too punishing.

I am all in for giving more risk/reward to stealth skills, but with this change it would be only risk and a little reward.

Compared to other MMOs, stealth attacks in GW2 are pretty weak. Nobody uses stealth with sword (tactical strike is quite weak and situational); sneak attack with pistol is just faster auto-attack; shortbow surprise strike is medicore and its potential can be easly wasted (situational); backstab only gives numbers with full glass cannon against another glass cannon.

LunarNacht.8913:

Yeah, certainly on block! The defender used something to block the hit and realizes where the attacker is.

How do you block attacks from behind? How do you block something you dont see coming? An invisible attacker could easily bypass any raised shield.

This is a computer game. So for gods sake stop arguing with real life logic. Otherwise stealth attacks must be unblockable. lol

No matter how many times you make a bad suggestion, it will still be bad. This change would make mainhand dagger on thieves, a complete joke, and not majorly effect anything else.

Maesk.8753:

Only if warriors lose all adrenalin when they miss their burst.

Be careful what you wish for, this would be an indirect improvement to the Cleansing Ire trait. If it were not for that, I would have started a thread about it already.

@ OP: I like your suggestion but keep in mind that the Thief might have to get compensation to make up for the defense and the (otherwise almost guaranteed) stealth attack.

Bearhugger.4326:

On block definitely makes sense and sounds fair.

Evade, not sure.

It should apply to evade as well. You took the risk to go for a backstab and failed, now you are punished for your miss. You shouldn’t be rewarded for failure.

No. Good players already know how to counter stealth. If you can’t, then either you’re not equipped for it, or you’re not a good player.
Cheers.

teg.1340:

meikodesign.6471:

teg.1340:

Engaging while stealthed also is high risk, because you eat full damage from cleaves and AOE while stealthed.

Still less risky than engaging while not stealthed…

Other professions have plenty of tools available to compensate risk: High HP, high armor, blocks, invulns, aegis, protection, regen, weapon skill heals, leaps, pets/illusions, aoe area denial, …

Thieves got non of those, but stealth. Deal with it!

Acrobatics thieves would like to have a word with you…

I agree. Anything to promote counter play and improve skill based combat.

+1

Not sure what you’re referencing in relation to mesmer…. mesmer doesn’t have a skill that stealths when you attack.

hihey.1075:

No. Good players already know how to counter stealth. If you can’t, then either you’re not equipped for it, or you’re not a good player.
Cheers.

This.

evilapprentice.6379:

hihey.1075:

No. Good players already know how to counter stealth. If you can’t, then either you’re not equipped for it, or you’re not a good player.
Cheers.

This.

This.

Laughing at all the people claiming that using stealth is at all high risk. There is exactly one hard counter to stealth in the entire game. Aside from that, the “counter” to stealth is to wave your weapon around like a madman, kite randomly, or hope you’re playing one of the classes that has PBAoE.

Stealth is broken – the fact that thieves depend on stealth for pretty much everything is just bad design.

Block/miss/evade should all trigger revealed.

stale.9785:

Laughing at all the people claiming that using stealth is at all high risk.

Laughing at all the people who never played a thief but think they can judge everything from their limited point of view.

Paulo – I had a thief, and yeah, they suck diseased moose wang in PvE. You know how many deaths I had while roaming in WvW? Less than 1. Were I to re-roll a thief, use a instant 20 scroll, and go back to WvW, I guarantee I could level to 80 with no deaths while roaming.

There is absolutely zero risk to a class that cannot be tracked, and has the ability to spam 2 skills till someone is dead, and if there’s any chance of failing, reset the fight and flee.

Even Hambow warriors are rocking a higher level of risk, dude.

The ability to disengage is a whole new topic.

You put yourself at risk if you try to backstab someone, that’s what the discussion is about.

stale.9785:

Paulo – I had a thief, and yeah, they suck diseased moose wang in PvE. You know how many deaths I had while roaming in WvW? Less than 1.

Either one of these is true:
Number of good players you met while roaming: 0.
Number of good players you killed while roaming: 0.

You were right on one thing, though:
Hambow is bad at roaming because they have no means to escape.

stale.9785:

Paulo – I had a thief, and yeah, they suck diseased moose wang in PvE. You know how many deaths I had while roaming in WvW? Less than 1. Were I to re-roll a thief, use a instant 20 scroll, and go back to WvW, I guarantee I could level to 80 with no deaths while roaming.

There is absolutely zero risk to a class that cannot be tracked, and has the ability to spam 2 skills till someone is dead, and if there’s any chance of failing, reset the fight and flee.

Anyone who dies to mindless skill spam deserved it (Either due to inexperience or being depleted from a recent fight) – it’s just as simple as that.

As far as WvW goes, as far as I’m concerned delete the class – I do not care about WvW – sPvP is what I care about and argue for (because that’s where balance should be centered on), and stealth is not OP in sPvP (it’s possibly slightly UP, but it’s not worth discussing).

It’s impossible to balance for both because of their myriad differences – stealth has a high cost in capture point PvP (not capping/defending points, which is the entire goal). In addition, the gear ranges in WvW are much wider, and there’s no guarantee of even footing.

No, the discussion is about whether having an attack be blocked/evaded/miss through blind should trigger reveal. It should.

Let’s say I’m standing there, didn’t know you were going to hit me, but suddenly a dagger smacks my shield – pretty good bet I know you’re there.

Same with someone trying to punch me from behind, but he swings beside my head instead – I’m going to turn around and rock you.

Say I’m pretty sure you’re hiding nearby, and start swinging a sword through the shadows – once I hit you, I know where you are (or I should.)

Any attack should result in revealed – as should taking damage.

Evil – I’m not approaching this from the viewpoint of capture-the-node. That gametype doesn’t appeal to me, and the only class I’ve spent any time on there is my ranger. With that said, I thought that stealth was basically useless in that form of PvP, and thus thieves had to actually play like the rest of us.

In WvW, thieves are the gods of roaming, with the ability to gank pretty much anyone they find on their own, with zero risk. In a zerg, they’re about as useless as rangers.