Guild Wars 2

it shows the rank of the class :
warriors are the best class so they have the best armor and best hp thats why they added them the best mobility and very good damage and condition cleansing and traits that automatically work on their own like half autopilot mode

If thieves got bumped up to 13k base people would ask for a nerf to X probably shadow’s embrace and rejuve.

Bumping up guardians to 13k and slightly nerfing their tankiness is taking away things people are use to which have people complain.

I even think Eles not right away would get complained about eventually. Omg S/d is to beefy with rock barrier nerf rock barrier or something along those lines.

If you bump up the bases you are going to have to nerf something’s which takes away things people like having(the ones that aren’t on the forums).

Dee Jay.2460:

I have asked myself the same question. Having differences in HP and Armor is fine. It’s part of being an RPG.

But the health difference is MASSIVE and I don’t think it’s good for the game.

It’s a whooping 70% difference between lowest and highest.

Armor in comparison has a fairly mild increase from 920 (light) to 1211 (heavy). That’s only a 30% difference and perfectly acceptable.

I think it would be much healthier for the game if they bumped the minimum HP from 10.800 HP to roughly 13.000 HP. It would really help Elementalists and Thieves gain much needed base-line survivability and might open them up to more build options that don’t require overpowered defensive skills. Guardians could do with a slight reduction in tankiness but wouldn’t need major changes.

That’s exactly it.

If they wanted to give those classes more health, they’d have to tweak some of their other defensive options or they’d just be strait overpowered.

And sure it’d be easier to balance a game that doesn’t have diversity. It’d be super easy to balance a game where we all play warriors with different names. I don’t want to play a warrior though.

I enjoy the flavor. I don’t think anyone can in their right mind call guardian/ele/thief bad. Squishy in zerk gear, sure, but they’re still pretty awesome, so why is it an issue?

That’s what makes balance in these games so difficult though. You have health, should be a single variable apples to apples But health on a guardian and health on a warrior are two very different things thanks to their relationship with the rest of the variables from those classes.

Give me top tier health on a guard, I’d be using full zerk and face tanking everything, it’d be silly. Nerf my other tools to compensate and then I’m playing warrior…

^^. I always felt that the guards low hp is really the only thing that keeps med guards in check. We will see though as I see meds going 30 honor for the extra vit. I plan to try it on my guard. Med guards already do well against warrior builds without the hp boost.

It is basically just the warrior and elementalist.

Simon.3794:

Kadin.2356:

Simon.3794:

Maybe you should explain to me why the guardian is the best bunker with lowest base hp

Block skill chaining and easy access to protection. To do so however they have to give up on really doing any significant damage.

you are saying that guardian can have block chain and protection(and blind chain) but can do no damage?

i wonder what is a meditation guardian.

he is saying if you want to go bunker you wont do dmg at the same time, its the same with the ele they have insane bunkerpotential but sacrifice all their dmg for it, while warriors ar tanky enough with full zerker. the lowest hp classes should have powerful dmgmitigation mechanics like the thief has stealth and guardian has blocks and protection. ele is left there with no armor and only earth traits to protect them and cantrips(which sacrifice utility slots while thiefs have a wide access to their mechanic) they basically have to tank the hits you throw at them or run away

The funny thing is people have realised for a long time the weaknesses of an ele and after 5 months of “internal testing” things will not change… So do we wait for another 4-6 months again or kitten off?

Zutha.5091:

The funny thing is people have realised for a long time the weaknesses of an ele and after 5 months of “internal testing” things will not change… So do we wait for another 4-6 months again or kitten off?

Just leave and come back in 3-5 years. The game may have a situation that somewhat resembles balance by then.

But in all seriousness, balance updates should be happening every month instead of every 5 months even if it means that they are a little smaller. There are just some things that are recognized as blatantly broken straight away and there is no point to employ a “wait and see” approach for some of the more obvious imbalances and exploits.

Well, there are classes that should get adjusted. The warrior should swap with the guardian for example. The guardian is the defensive tank. The warrior should be a high risk/reward berserker type. The thief is supposed to be high risk/reward and that is why they have so few HPs. Elementalist doesn’t have the damage for it. If it did like in most MMOs it would go to the low HP bucket.

Tiers should be redone:

High HP
Guardian
Ranger (the tough woodsman)

Middle
Elementalist
Necromancer
Engineer
Mesmer

Low
Warrior
Thief

High hp guards? Low hp warriors? Zerk high risk warrior was before healing sig buff

Bombsaway.7198:

Well, there are classes that should get adjusted. The warrior should swap with the guardian for example. The guardian is the defensive tank. The warrior should be a high risk/reward berserker type. The thief is supposed to be high risk/reward and that is why they have so few HPs. Elementalist doesn’t have the damage for it. If it did like in most MMOs it would go to the low HP bucket.

Tiers should be redone:

Classes I like and want to see win as much as possible
Guardian
Ranger (the tough woodsman)

Classes I’m OK with but don’t want to favor
Elementalist
Necromancer
Engineer
Mesmer

Classes I hate and want to be able to kill as easily as possible
Warrior
Thief

What. Is. This.

I fixed the headers for you. I seriously don’t know how you could possibly argue this list though. A Warrior with Low HP would be a really terrible joke, almost as terrible as a Guardian with another base 8k HP.

Ranger wouldn’t be OP.
Warrior wouldn’t suck.

As for guardian, it makes far more sense but it may result in needing to reduce guardian damage.

At least we agree the thief is ok!

Lots of nonsense in this thread… Lets make a simple comparison to guardian and necro
just to give you guys an example of why there are such big differences in HP pools:

Necros have 1st tier hp pool. They have light armor, one teleport which requires a target other than that they have no mobility, little access to stability, even less skills to block dmg therefore they deserve all that extra hp.

Guardians have 3rd tier hp pool but access to aegis, skills that block dmg, teleports which require target and some mobility as well as heavy armor. They do not need higher BASE hp, they get their EHP from other sources like for example, aegis.

Simon.3794:

Kadin.2356:

Simon.3794:

Maybe you should explain to me why the guardian is the best bunker with lowest base hp

Block skill chaining and easy access to protection. To do so however they have to give up on really doing any significant damage.

you are saying that guardian can have block chain and protection(and blind chain) but can do no damage?

i wonder what is a meditation guardian.

Implying that a meditation guardian can bunker.

Black Box.9312:

Simon.3794:

Kadin.2356:

Simon.3794:

Maybe you should explain to me why the guardian is the best bunker with lowest base hp

Block skill chaining and easy access to protection. To do so however they have to give up on really doing any significant damage.

you are saying that guardian can have block chain and protection(and blind chain) but can do no damage?

i wonder what is a meditation guardian.

Implying that a meditation guardian can bunker.

Implying that a mediation guardian can Block skill chaining and easy access to protection. Please read what its written.

Simon.3794:

Black Box.9312:

Simon.3794:

Kadin.2356:

Simon.3794:

Maybe you should explain to me why the guardian is the best bunker with lowest base hp

Block skill chaining and easy access to protection. To do so however they have to give up on really doing any significant damage.

you are saying that guardian can have block chain and protection(and blind chain) but can do no damage?

i wonder what is a meditation guardian.

Implying that a meditation guardian can bunker.

Implying that a mediation guardian can Block skill chaining and easy access to protection. Please read what its written.

I’ve played a meditation guard. It doesn’t rely on protection at all, it’s mostly blocks, blinds, and dodges that keep it alive. It’s not a build that is meant for defensive purposes and is very reliant on skillful activation of a limited number of active defenses with high cooldowns to make up for its inherent squishiness. And it’s certainly not able to bunker.

So please, don’t make assumptions about a class or build that you have no knowledge or experience with.

Black Box.9312:

Simon.3794:

Black Box.9312:

Simon.3794:

Kadin.2356:

Simon.3794:

Maybe you should explain to me why the guardian is the best bunker with lowest base hp

Block skill chaining and easy access to protection. To do so however they have to give up on really doing any significant damage.

you are saying that guardian can have block chain and protection(and blind chain) but can do no damage?

i wonder what is a meditation guardian.

Implying that a meditation guardian can bunker.

Implying that a mediation guardian can Block skill chaining and easy access to protection. Please read what its written.

I’ve played a meditation guard. It doesn’t rely on protection at all, it’s mostly blocks, blinds, and dodges that keep it alive. It’s not a build that is meant for defensive purposes and is very reliant on skillful activation of a limited number of active defenses with high cooldowns to make up for its inherent squishiness. And it’s certainly not able to bunker.

So please, don’t make assumptions about a class or build that you have no knowledge or experience with.

So, A medatation guard doesnt have protection, let’s ignore hammer meditation build 1st, a meditation guard still has access to block chaining and blind spamming. does it render my argument any pointless? let’s make it clear that i did not say meditation guard can bunk before you start.

Grimreaper.5370:

Lots of nonsense in this thread… Lets make a simple comparison to guardian and necro
just to give you guys an example of why there are such big differences in HP pools:

Necros have 1st tier hp pool. They have light armor, one teleport which requires a target other than that they have no mobility, little access to stability, even less skills to block dmg therefore they deserve all that extra hp.

Guardians have 3rd tier hp pool but access to aegis, skills that block dmg, teleports which require target and some mobility as well as heavy armor. They do not need higher BASE hp, they get their EHP from other sources like for example, aegis.

Now do the same comparison with Warriors and Elementalists.

Simon.3794:

Black Box.9312:

Simon.3794:

Black Box.9312:

Simon.3794:

Kadin.2356:

Simon.3794:

Maybe you should explain to me why the guardian is the best bunker with lowest base hp

Block skill chaining and easy access to protection. To do so however they have to give up on really doing any significant damage.

you are saying that guardian can have block chain and protection(and blind chain) but can do no damage?

i wonder what is a meditation guardian.

Implying that a meditation guardian can bunker.

Implying that a mediation guardian can Block skill chaining and easy access to protection. Please read what its written.

I’ve played a meditation guard. It doesn’t rely on protection at all, it’s mostly blocks, blinds, and dodges that keep it alive. It’s not a build that is meant for defensive purposes and is very reliant on skillful activation of a limited number of active defenses with high cooldowns to make up for its inherent squishiness. And it’s certainly not able to bunker.

So please, don’t make assumptions about a class or build that you have no knowledge or experience with.

So, A medatation guard doesnt have protection, let’s ignore hammer meditation build 1st, a meditation guard still has access to block chaining and blind spamming. does it render my argument any pointless? let’s make it clear that i did not say meditation guard can bunk before you start.

Ever used a hammer in PvP? Good luck landing that symbol.

That aside though, here’s how to beat a medi guardian: Wait for the focus block to wear off (or break it, your call) then kite it to death. It really isn’t very defensible and relies very heavily on burst damage to subdue the opponent before they can unleash their own offense.

You’re trying to argue that a medi guardian can be defensible and deal good damage, and I’m telling you that you’re wrong. Guardians can be built for good damage, and they can be built for good survivability, but they cannot be built for both.

Black Box.9312:

Simon.3794:

Black Box.9312:

Simon.3794:

Black Box.9312:

Simon.3794:

Kadin.2356:

Simon.3794:

Maybe you should explain to me why the guardian is the best bunker with lowest base hp

Block skill chaining and easy access to protection. To do so however they have to give up on really doing any significant damage.

you are saying that guardian can have block chain and protection(and blind chain) but can do no damage?

i wonder what is a meditation guardian.

Implying that a meditation guardian can bunker.

Implying that a mediation guardian can Block skill chaining and easy access to protection. Please read what its written.

I’ve played a meditation guard. It doesn’t rely on protection at all, it’s mostly blocks, blinds, and dodges that keep it alive. It’s not a build that is meant for defensive purposes and is very reliant on skillful activation of a limited number of active defenses with high cooldowns to make up for its inherent squishiness. And it’s certainly not able to bunker.

So please, don’t make assumptions about a class or build that you have no knowledge or experience with.

So, A medatation guard doesnt have protection, let’s ignore hammer meditation build 1st, a meditation guard still has access to block chaining and blind spamming. does it render my argument any pointless? let’s make it clear that i did not say meditation guard can bunk before you start.

Ever used a hammer in PvP? Good luck landing that symbol.

That aside though, here’s how to beat a medi guardian: Wait for the focus block to wear off (or break it, your call) then kite it to death. It really isn’t very defensible and relies very heavily on burst damage to subdue the opponent before they can unleash their own offense.

You’re trying to argue that a medi guardian can be defensible and deal good damage, and I’m telling you that you’re wrong. Guardians can be built for good damage, and they can be built for good survivability, but they cannot be built for both.

This is so true. I wish people would actually play guardian before they spout out “guards in good spot they have protection, block, vigor!” Guards actually have limited access to those, and they will deal NO damage if they go for them. So sure we can make great bunkers, but our burst will be lucky to hit 1K. And when we spec for damage, we are more glassy than thieves and eles because we have terrible movement. Our teleports require targets (so can’t be used to run) we have one leap on our GS, and we also have no passive movement speed like other classes. Guards are very easy to kill if you just kite them, because they can’t run, and they can’t catch you. Honestly if a guard goes full dps it is dangerous and not as viable as it should be since our health tier is low and our movement is crap. I think they should move us back to mid tier health.

I definitely think it’s arguable that the tiers are a little off and need to be squished a bit, but the more important issue is just how poorly balanced the elementalist and warrior in particular are. The Ele’s toolset is very lackluster for how squishy they are while the warrior’s toolset is far too effective for how tanky they are. Those two classes are the main problem areas. The others fall in line a bit more reasonably.

Eles need a damage boost, especially on their autos, and a few adjustments that allow them to mitigate damage more easily.

Warriors need fewer reactive utilities that allow them to mitigate even more damage than their top-tier passive defenses already do OR they need an across-the-board damage nerf. One of the two.

The Thief is just behind those two as a class that has very precarious balance issues – being very underpowered at the baseline while possessing some blatantly OP tools to compensate. Mostly due to the design of Stealth, their damage mitigation in PvE is well below where it should be while in PvP they are allowed to be incredibly cheap due to the fact that they can stack pure offense without sacrificing as much as other classes.

This is the task Anet has set itself up for: Balancing classes to make them viable, fun and enjoyable to play when at the core they are fundamentally, deeply imbalanced.

The level 80 Warrior has the highest/best base health (18372) and armor (1271) in the game. Health and Armor can be translated into the attributes of Vitality and Toughness (10 points of Health and Armor per point of Vitality and Toughness). Vitality and Toughness are the two primary defensive attributes in the game. In terms of attribute/trait points this means the Warrior starts with a clear attribute/trait advantage against all others. The level 80 Warrior has, in comparison to level 80:

• Light Armor Classes: +30.4 more attribute/trait points from Armor (calculated based on a full set of Ascended Armor).
• Low Health Classes: +756.7 more attribute/trait points from base Health.
• Medium Armor Classes: +15.3 more attribute/trait points from Armor (calculated based on a full set of Ascended Armor).
• Medium Health Classes: +329 more attribute/trait points from base Health.

So this means the other classes effectively have the following attribute/trait point deficits in relation to the Warrior:

• Elementalist: 787.1 attribute/trait points
• Thief: 772 attribute/trait points
• Guardian: 756.7 attribute/trait points
• Mesmer: 359.4 attribute/trait points
• Engineer: 344.3 attribute/trait points
• Ranger: 344.3 attribute/trait points
• Necromancer: 30.4 attribute/trait points

Warriors do not have flexibility in spending those additional attribute points they all have, but they are important almost universally beneficial attributes (exception being toughness vs. condition damage). This imbalance simply makes it very difficult to have credible discussion about class fairness and balance concerning traits, weapon skills, healing skills, utility skills and class mechanics. Anet need to take one or two of their fingers off the scale in favor of Warriors and a good place to start would be by addressing this imbalance by moving those classes up toward the Warrior.

I’d take a more pragmatic route: Rebalance the HP tiers from 10000/15000/18000 to 14000/15000/16000. The difference between min and max HP is equivalent to 200 vitality, just like the difference between min and max armor is about 200 toughness.

Cogbyrn.7283:

People worry about balance more to help excuse their own poor play from being a generally mediocre/bad player than to actually try to help the game. Sometimes that worry just reaches too far. See: this thread.

Are you assuming I brought this up because I die a lot? B*tch please. I destroy people with my guardian. I brought it up because I was working on something in the build editor and I noticed a huge gap in HP between some classes. A gap, I understand, but 7k difference made me scratch my head. So I made this topic to ask people whether or not they can explain why the differences are so big.

I think the base HP and armor are correct.
But one would assume that, those differences would mean a trade-off, and the fact that this trade-off is based on mechanics, makes it too hard to balance.

In my opinion, armor should be tied to damage, and HP to healing power. So if you are on a lower tier of armor, you get an increase in base damage (thus making ele what it should be, a squishy high damaging mage), and if you have low base HP, you should have higher base healing power to compensate (making guardians even more supportive, and giving eles the option to be as supportives too).

If you agree or not you agree with where HP Pools are right now, I doubt very much Anet is going to be making changes to any of them. This is something we as players are just gonna have to adapt to and roll with like we have for the past year and half.

Baltzenger.2467:

I think the base HP and armor are correct.
But one would assume that, those differences would mean a trade-off, and the fact that this trade-off is based on mechanics, makes it too hard to balance.

Very well said, sir!

I don’t see a problem with the guardian, since they have a lot of mitigation, protection, blinds etc. But as an Ele it is really hard if you don’t invest in defense.

To this day I find this decision incredibly silly. I get that some classes have access to prot/blocks, but that’s only really effective against direct damage attacks, against conditions it’s completely useless. Sure you can block that one bleed from a necro…a second later its there anyways, and now you’ve wasted a block, and because your HP is so low, the bleed is pwning your HP….

I think the differences in armor values between high, medium, and low are enough to differentiate between the classes, why they had to reduce HP as well seems like overkill to me.

The real problem is that it is so casual unfriendly and unintuitive.

Who would guess not knowing that a cloth necromancer would have higher HPs than a heavy armored guardian?

The reason it makes sense to balance HPs is more about simplifying the experience for new players making initial characters.

Too often a class is just not what you expect in several cases if you played other MMOs. That is absolutely FINE if you spell out clearly what those differences are. HPs are not spelled out well for character creation.

pmnt.4067:

I’d take a more pragmatic route: Rebalance the HP tiers from 10000/15000/18000 to 14000/15000/16000. The difference between min and max HP is equivalent to 200 vitality, just like the difference between min and max armor is about 200 toughness.

I’d agree to the thought. The large difference in health pools lets some classes run certain stat sets with little punishment while that same stat set could be mostly harmful to another. Dire is the only set that has no – side to wearing it for a condi build, but thankfully I didn’t see dire in the pvp locker (but if I missed it, I’m going to be a sad sad panda).

For example, a necro can put on rabid (condi prec toughness) which gets their rather low defense up, and gives 2 offensive stats. Since they already have high health they don’t really need to get more. Give rabid to say an ele, the low health greatly outweighs the small bump in toughness making you squishy as ever. Another thing to keep in mind is conditions ignore armor rating, so naturally low health pool professions have to invest more to defenses to deal with the meta than others.

Long story short, vitality greatly outweighs the benefit of high toughness as it is universally defensive yet there is a large difference between the base health pools between each profession. There is a reason they are different and why each profession was put in their tier, but the min-max shouldn’t be so outrageous.

Aedrion.6483:

Cogbyrn.7283:

People worry about balance more to help excuse their own poor play from being a generally mediocre/bad player than to actually try to help the game. Sometimes that worry just reaches too far. See: this thread.

Are you assuming I brought this up because I die a lot? B*tch please. I destroy people with my guardian. I brought it up because I was working on something in the build editor and I noticed a huge gap in HP between some classes. A gap, I understand, but 7k difference made me scratch my head. So I made this topic to ask people whether or not they can explain why the differences are so big.

You casually dismissed the actual reason in the OP by citing a few examples out of context.

Death Shroud is Necro’s only defensive mechanic. No real stability, no blocks, no evasion abilities, no invulnerabilities, no vigor. It scales with HP, so giving them high HP makes sense. You’re entitled to your opinion, but if you think Necros should have anything other than the highest potential base HP given the class’s mechanics, you should know your opinion is wrong.

Warriors are a bit of a tricky specimen. I personally think they should have top-tier base HP, but the game’s design has shifted a bit since the class’s inception. For example, Guardians have low HP because they have access to great condi cleansing, high prot uptime, a lot of blocks/blinds, etc. Effective HP is something to keep in mind. Warriors, at the start of the game, had pretty poor condi removal (no Cleansing Ire, and Zerker Stance didn’t make you immune to condis, which leaves… Signet of Stamina, mostly. Runes of Lyssa felt mandatory for me back then when I played my Warrior). Their high base HP was supposed to allow them to maintain longer against conditions (the Vitality counters Conditions mentality, which I personally think is silly when heals don’t scale with total HP).

Since then, Warriors have gotten more condi cleansing toys, but they still have no real access to Prot. They can’t stealth, can’t blink, don’t really blind, and therefore are basically always “out in the open” to being attacked. Regardless of what you think about 1 or 2 Warrior builds being really strong, the class, mechanically, needs high health.

Elementalists, I’m not sure. I’ve seen Eles sustain really well with various armors/self-healing, and I’ve seen them burst targets really hard. Maybe they should have Medium health, but I’m not sold. I think the class just needs a bit of rebalancing. Remember D/D Eles way back when? Nigh unkillable, even with the lowest base HP and armor.

Nothing in the base HP comparison strikes me as very strange. You just have to take your personal bias against classes out of the equation and analyze their mechanics.

I’m glad you destroy people with your Guardian. It’s a really strong class that can do a lot of things really well. If you don’t think you should have the lowest base health, while you personally claim you destroy people, I don’t understand why you want the game to be unbalanced.

If you want Warriors and Necros to have their base health reduced (which has more serious implications against a Necro), but you destroy them, I don’t understand why you want the game to be unbalanced.

If you want Elementalists to have higher base HP, well, there might be an argument there, but I think they need to be careful on how they tweak the class’s mechanics if they are going to go that route.

Aedrion.6483:

Warrior / Necromancer — 18372 Base HP

Ranger/ Engineer / Mesmer — 15082 Base HP

Guardian / Elementalist / Thief — 10805 Base HP

Come somebody explain to me why there is such a huge difference between some classes? And before you say that some have better healing and/or defensive abilities: That is untrue, warriors have some of the best defensive abilities in the game and necromancers have Death Shroud. Whereas Elementalists have mist form, which completely disables them and doesn’t allow healing at all.

A full glass elementalist can use Meteor shower and hit for a good 8k per meteor if they use tornado.

That’s why. Sure, warriors can hit for 8k with eviscerate, but a good fiery rush spike with just DD can hit for 8k AoE as well. This will come out of no where if you use your lightning flash correctly.

Elementalists also get to bring healing, damage, spike and defense BY DEFAULT!

Thieves, you know their deal. The point is to stay out of battle until the time is right. If thieves could just hang out in the middle of a battle and deal so much damage from stealth, it’d be insane. (oh wait S/D).

Guardians have a crap ton of defense.

Yes, warriors have a lot of defense and stuff. That’s why they’re OP in PvP, PvE and WvW right now.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Elementalists also get to bring healing, damage, spike and defense BY DEFAULT!

Today I learned that “by default” means:

• Investing 20 trait points for boon on attunement
• Investing 20 trait points for a condi-cleanse and heal
• Blowing a 3min elite to power up a single skill
• Blowing 3 utilites for one spike every 40 seconds

Eles have at least to sacrifice survivability for damage … something you cannot say about all classes…

Ele DD got a whole class nerfed, just remember that, the best survivability traits and one of the better heals got decimated in PvP and in PvE/WvW got the traits nerfed to force as to go further in to trait lines just to be viable. As a DD ele 20 water and 30 Arcana is till a must, since without out you get chilled and your dead and even with it at times that is true. As well a lot of DD builds run 0/x/x/30/30 in WvW just to be able to get the cleansing needed to be in the middle of the fray. And the x/x is depending on what the player is shooting for, the stab/damage buff or the aura/spiking buff.

Though yes after they nerfed ele to the ground they finally started working on staff to make it viable, but that was at the expense of any other weapon set. Yes Fresh Air made the scepter more viable due to the crit chains and flipping in and out of air as much as possible. But they never fixed some of the over-the-top nerfs they did to DD that would have fixed the amount of survivability they took away.

Warriors were in a bad spot, but remember the first six months, ANet was trying to use them as the balance paradigm. They gave up with that and now look at where the balance of the game is. We have a powercreep in condi meta and over the top tanky builds using dire+perplexity since why not! And those builds can out-damage a zerker due to the innate survivabilty combined with an unbalanced rune that they are not adding to PvP because of that exact reason. Warriors now have the most obnixously easy playstyle in the game that makes a mediocre player able to beat a player of higher skill level since it is all passive play and really requires them only having to use sustain damage to kill the other player while NOT using their healing skill, which got nerfed on ele. If you wonder why some players are upset at the balance, look at where Ele was at and you can see that warrior is there with even better basis then ele since they can just become immune to everything for nearly 10s every minuteish. And people call that balance…

The health pools play a major part in all of this, 7.5k more life should never be the difference. That is 750 free stats that the warrior gets over ele/gaurd/theif and 350 they get over Mesmer/Ranger/Engi. Now say they had a 2k gap between the tiers and them maybe people wouldn’t be as up in arms. a 4k maybe at most 5k gap between the top and bottom should have been the biggest there should ever have been. 2.5k difference in tiers would have been fine, but with the current balance meta where they are now doing shaves rather then here is 50% and lets take away 50% we might see a change to this issue, that is if they practice a more active balancing course and not go hey look the meta hasn’t changed for 4-12 months lets take 50% off the top of the most powered class and give it to what we see is the least. Thus what happened since till the HS and stance changes Wars were considered one of the bottom classes, but unlike ele they were still viable in high tier PvP because of a simple pool of free stats between armor and health.

Klocknov.8219:

Thus what happened since till the HS and stance changes Wars were considered one of the bottom classes, but unlike ele they were still viable in high tier PvP because of a simple pool of free stats between armor and health.

that’s not true, before the buff, there’s a time when warrior were never in top team plays, there are teams with 2 eles, but rarely a team with one war. top warriors couldn’t find any team, warriors was straight up the worst class, voted free kill tier(never seen before) by the community and he was “worse then ranger’s bird”.

so we all must agree that the difference should be closer from what it is now
i hope devs understand it aswell

jihm.2315:

so we all must agree that the difference should be closer from what it is now
i hope devs understand it aswell

I love when people summarize everyone at once with an opinion not everyone shares.

Go ahead and take me out of your “all” who agree the difference should be closer.

Cogbyrn.7283:

jihm.2315:

so we all must agree that the difference should be closer from what it is now
i hope devs understand it aswell

I love when people summarize everyone at once with an opinion not everyone shares.

Go ahead and take me out of your “all” who agree the difference should be closer.

you play warrior and necro that have the highest hp lol
necro is medicore with low armor and high hp
and warrior is overall the best class in the game

jihm.2315:

Cogbyrn.7283:

jihm.2315:

so we all must agree that the difference should be closer from what it is now
i hope devs understand it aswell

I love when people summarize everyone at once with an opinion not everyone shares.

Go ahead and take me out of your “all” who agree the difference should be closer.

you play warrior and necro that have the highest hp lol
necro is medicore with low armor and high hp
and warrior is overall the best class in the game

I main a ranger, I’m in the process of levelling all classes to 80.
I don’t believe health levels should be changed. Just some nerfs/boosts reverted (in the case of Ele and War).

Ele should be high risk, high damage, like thieves are.
War should have some more risks brought in.

I’m not saying all professions are in a great spot right now, but at least they have things working. Their risk/reward/effective HP/effective attacks ratios seem ok.

Now it would indeed be easier to balance things out if base stats between professions were closer, but all professions would then be pretty much the same, or they would be pretty close in gameplay. (eg, can’t up gard and thief health without taking off most of their defensive abilities, and can’t down the others without adding to their defense)

this is why I believe everyone should of been exactly the same. Every player starts out with the exact same stats at level 1. Then they pick a race and class they like and start playing. by level 80 if we strip off all their gear and traits and expose them in their bare essence their stats would match up perfectly just like they did at level 1. Now we had gear choice. rune/sigil preference, traits and boom. now everyones stats are spread out depending how they want to use them.

No more light classes going deep into defensive stats and have almost no offense just to break even with heavy classes who has equal or even better defence stats without doing anything. Its laughable

I don’t see why they couldn’t have just made it so everyone starts with the exact same stats and then players are given a X number of stats that they can choose where to spend them. The problem would be the game is UNFAIRLY balanced around what skills classes have and most of the time is is WRONGLY balanced.

Because ANet wanted to make sure that their all-loved warrior wins every matchup.
Seriously, the extra health certain classes have was meant to be the counterpart to lacking conditionclearing/damage mitigation.
I think it’s clear right now that this approach hasn’t turned out as healthy as it was intended to be.

Simon.3794:

that’s not true, before the buff, there’s a time when warrior were never in top team plays, there are teams with 2 eles, but rarely a team with one war. top warriors couldn’t find any team, warriors was straight up the worst class, voted free kill tier(never seen before) by the community and he was “worse then ranger’s bird”.

And look at now, teams are running two warriors, but never run an ele, not rarely, never. They at least were used back then, they may have been bottom tier, but they were still viable.

Jocksy.3415:

jihm.2315:

Cogbyrn.7283:

jihm.2315:

so we all must agree that the difference should be closer from what it is now
i hope devs understand it aswell

I love when people summarize everyone at once with an opinion not everyone shares.

Go ahead and take me out of your “all” who agree the difference should be closer.

you play warrior and necro that have the highest hp lol
necro is medicore with low armor and high hp
and warrior is overall the best class in the game

I main a ranger, I’m in the process of levelling all classes to 80.
I don’t believe health levels should be changed. Just some nerfs/boosts reverted (in the case of Ele and War).

Ele should be high risk, high damage, like thieves are.
War should have some more risks brought in.

I’m not saying all professions are in a great spot right now, but at least they have things working. Their risk/reward/effective HP/effective attacks ratios seem ok.

Now it would indeed be easier to balance things out if base stats between professions were closer, but all professions would then be pretty much the same, or they would be pretty close in gameplay. (eg, can’t up gard and thief health without taking off most of their defensive abilities, and can’t down the others without adding to their defense)

the difference between low tier and top tier is too big that is all

Cogbyrn.7283:

I’m glad you destroy people with your Guardian. It’s a really strong class that can do a lot of things really well. If you don’t think you should have the lowest base health, while you personally claim you destroy people, I don’t understand why you want the game to be unbalanced.

If you want Warriors and Necros to have their base health reduced (which has more serious implications against a Necro), but you destroy them, I don’t understand why you want the game to be unbalanced.

If you want Elementalists to have higher base HP, well, there might be an argument there, but I think they need to be careful on how they tweak the class’s mechanics if they are going to go that route.

Now that’s a reply I can get behind. I’ve seen many good reasons here for necro high HP, the class IS very reliant upon it’s HP to survive.

But the examples you bring up on the warrior and elementalist are my main reason for making this thread. Elementalists have to basically always sacrifice offence for defence or they become glass cannons. I’ve seen great players makes the class shine but most elementalists just don’t get there, if they go full nuke, they’re squishy. You could argue that they have a lot of healing or defensive abilities but again, that’s because they’re pretty much forced into those abilities. Elementalists have so many awesome utility skills but all I ever see in PvP is triple cantrips for survival.

Meanwhile warriors may be always in the open but their stances make them just not care. They can run into a fight blindly, bash everybody around, take no damage or no condi damage. It feels wrong that warriors can do whatever they like and always be powerful and eles have to go into a certain route because their low base HP doesn’t exactly allow more bursty builds without a team that supports it.

I’ve played both classes in PvP and I immediatly noticed that you can pretty much turn your brain off when playing a warrior but you need to stay focussed all the time when playing an ele.

I don’t understand those differences, especially in spvp.

The low health character classes don’t seem to receive any other benefit to offset there low base values. I have had all 8 classes at lvl 80 for ages. Ele in particular seem harshly treated, a lot being quick, easy free kills for the other classes.

Arrow.4619:

• Elementalist: 787.1 attribute/trait points
• Thief: 772 attribute/trait points
• Guardian: 756.7 attribute/trait points
• Mesmer: 359.4 attribute/trait points
• Engineer: 344.3 attribute/trait points
• Ranger: 344.3 attribute/trait points
• Necromancer: 30.4 attribute/trait points

I like this idea, but it will be too much. if they rebalance hp pool to 14/15/16 and make stat rebalance like you said it make sense.

anyway, they are going wrong way in balancing around warrior (high hp/armor).
ele is a good example how system should work – trade-off survivability for damage. you can’t be jack-of-all-trades.

high dmg-low surv (full bers)
mid dmg-mid surv (mix/match, celestial, knight, zealot, ptv/bers)
low dmg-high surv (ptv, cleric, giver etc)

that’s how system should work, not like OMFG top hp/armor/cc/support/mobility.

sorry forgot dev name, but he told that warriors will be a bit shaved. you dont need to shave warriors, you need to jugulate them.

Diamond skin!Spent your 30 trait points and become immune to condis!Until you lose 1000 hp!Hell yea this will bring eles back in condi meta!