Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: RyuDragnier.9476

RyuDragnier.9476

I’m fine with CnD stealth spam due to the requirement that you have to be close to the enemy (meaning it’s easy to counter). I’m fine with Shadow Refuge due to being pushed/pulled/leaving the AoE = reveal and it’s large cooldown. I’m fine with Blinding Powder, Smokescreen+Heartseeker combo and Heal in Shadow because they’re utilities that have a 16+ second cooldown. I’m fine with the traits that give stealth because their requirements are either below a HP threshold or to use Steal, both of which have a cooldown or are activated at a point where it could lead to death.

I am NOT fine with being able to spam stealth from a long range distance every 4-5 seconds with Blinding Powder + Heartseeker. That is the only way to access stealth atm that is utterly OP IMO, there’s no counter to it. This is the only thing with stealth that needs a fix right now, everything else that gives access to it is fine as they either have a 16+ second cooldown to make up for it or they have a counter.

[hS]
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Bombsaway.7198

Bombsaway.7198

The problem with stealth is the ability to apply and reapply it.

You should not be able to cast a new stealth while in stealth. (You must come out of stealth to restealth).
There should be an ICD between stealth casts (2 seconds is fine).
You must be out of combat to stealth or take no damage for the prior 2 seconds.

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: The Game Slayer.7632

The Game Slayer.7632

I think actually that stealth should be removed from you if you take more than 15 or 20 % of your maximum health. (while buffing thieves in other ways ofc) Mesmers could deal with this as its not really going to kill them. PU mesmers need some sort of nerf anyway. Removing stealth in such a way shouldnt apply reveal though.

I completely disagree that 1 damage should remove stealth from somone, but a certain percentage however should be acceptable.

I am a teef
:)

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Azukas.1426

Azukas.1426

You fellas do realize that your crusade to “balance” thieves will completely annihilate them in all aspects of PvE??

Ryu if you can’t counter the class you play as a main I suggest you should pick an easier class to play. D/P thieves are absolutely fine as of right now. They are so easily countered in today’s game….Please post a video of you fighting D/P and I’ll break it down on what you need to D

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Black Box.9312

Black Box.9312

i main engi, and it’s most of the time super easy to win against thieves. i already lost hard to some thieves, but that’s due to me not beeing the best duelist.

BUT: the stealth mechanic is WAAAYYY to cheesy. like WAY WAY WAAAAY. people saying you can counter it: unless you have interrupts (and high skill to interrupt someone stealthing), there’s no counter to it. any AoE is either:
- too weak to kill the thief (or else you would use it even if he’s not stealthed)
- strong enough to kill, but then your target didn’t need stealth and you would have used the skill anyway, not altering your gameplay at all.

a real counter would be something that would work ONLY if the target is stealthed, like an attack that adds REVEALED to your target, or an attack that deals extra damage or conditions to stealthed enemies. this is the definiton of counterplay.

so whenever a thief stealthed, he should really think twice, because it may happen that someone COUNTERS this, leaving him weaker than he would be if he didn’t use stealth.

of COURSE the play without stealth should then be buffed. thieves should be able make much more use of their real class mechanic: STEAL.

Adding hard counters to the game just further splits the division between class ability and player skill. A good player should be able to beat a bad player regardless of class.

Also, there are a large number of traits that work around steal. Mug, stealth on steal, boons on steal, boon steal on steal, daze on steal, increased steal distance, etc.

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Necrotize.2974

Necrotize.2974

Removing stealth when hit seems like a great nerf. The buff that comes with it should be that you can use backstab anytime you’re behind an enemy, not just when in stealth. Seems fair because if we implemented that change a thief would never get behind a person in stealth ever again.

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: pza.8024

pza.8024

The above post doesn’t make much sense

You say thieves are way easy to kill then go on a rant about stealth and wanting nerf it with reveal attacks

Yet offer zero ideas to buff up the free kills you just created.

Thieves are fine as is people. Leave it alone

My opinion is that the thief is well balanced, and versus condi cookiecutter engies even quite weak. My point is that stealth doesnt offer enough possibility to be countered. So if it got changed to be easier to counter, like for example giving each class the ability to reveal the thief, the thief should be given a buff in return. Whatever this is, more survivability or abilities to escape, im open for anything.
And:
If stealth is fine as it is, why are so many people complaining about it? It’s not l2p, or else i wouldnt be winning 80% of the encounters.

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: pza.8024

pza.8024

Adding hard counters to the game just further splits the division between class ability and player skill. A good player should be able to beat a bad player regardless of class.

Also, there are a large number of traits that work around steal. Mug, stealth on steal, boons on steal, boon steal on steal, daze on steal, increased steal distance, etc.

Sorry to say but the game is a stone paper scissors game. Engis outperform thieves, necros kill engies, thieves murder necros (i believe). i agree, as long as there is a relevant difference in personal skill, there should be a chance of breaking this circle. Of course circumstances like game mode, luck and terrain also play a role, but this is not what were discussing here.
Anyway. If you call stealth a thief class mechanic, its the only one that has a lack of possibility to be countered. And its potentially the most powerful one. I’d pick perma stealth anytime over warr’s f-skills.
Edit: forgot to say:
Too few thieves rely on the actual stuff that u steal, and instead jsut steal to teleport or trigger traited effects. Thats silly and poor design. Its like eating for training your jaw muscles instead of nutrition.

(edited by pza.8024)

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: DuranArgith.1354

DuranArgith.1354

remove lyssa runes. problem solved

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: ramorambo.6701

ramorambo.6701

remove lyssa runes. problem solved

That’s the easiest way to bring more problems due to condispam being able to destroy low hp class with few condi removals (thief in 1st position)

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: DuranArgith.1354

DuranArgith.1354

remove lyssa runes. problem solved

That’s the easiest way to bring more problems due to condispam being able to destroy low hp class with few condi removals (thief in 1st position)

so giving them aegis, stability and protection while putting down a blind field and immobilizing/basilisk venom, making it really hard for you to retaliate, while eating insane burst, is not a problem in your eyes?

And all that every time they use their elite which has the lowest cd in the game?
you can leave the remove all condis in lyssa runes if you want. Its the boons that are the problem.

(edited by DuranArgith.1354)

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

remove lyssa runes. problem solved

That’s the easiest way to bring more problems due to condispam being able to destroy low hp class with few condi removals (thief in 1st position)

so giving them aegis, stability and protection while putting down a blind field and immobilizing/basilisk venom, making it really hard for you to retaliate, while eating insane burst, is not a problem in your eyes?

And all that every time they use their elite which has the lowest cd in the game?
you can leave the remove all condis in lyssa runes if you want. Its the boons that are the problem.

insane burst comes from ogre rune thieves…

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: DuranArgith.1354

DuranArgith.1354

remove lyssa runes. problem solved

That’s the easiest way to bring more problems due to condispam being able to destroy low hp class with few condi removals (thief in 1st position)

so giving them aegis, stability and protection while putting down a blind field and immobilizing/basilisk venom, making it really hard for you to retaliate, while eating insane burst, is not a problem in your eyes?

And all that every time they use their elite which has the lowest cd in the game?
you can leave the remove all condis in lyssa runes if you want. Its the boons that are the problem.

insane burst comes from ogre rune thieves…

Right… Because thieves need ogre runes to do decent burst.
[sarcasm]I also started pvp yesterday.[/sarcasm]

(edited by DuranArgith.1354)

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Rezzet.3614

Rezzet.3614

Counter stealth 101

Black powder field
Thieves use heartseeker out of it to gain stealth. AOE that kitten. Swing/attack around that kitten without stepping into it.

Stealth heal.
AOE that kitten. Swing/attack the area. He is already low on health or wants to escape when it’s used. Be aggressive.

Shadow Refuge.
Push/Fear the thief out of that kitten. Swing/attack/aoe the area.

Instant Stealth Abilities/Traits
CC the area AOE that kitten, swing etc.

If there is a thief on the other team and you are getting focused, keep an eye on him. If you get to about half health thats when we love to strike. Just have what you can ready to defend or get out of a surprise backstab.

Don’t forget. You cannot cap/hold points with stealth. You have very few seconds to really stay in stealth unless you use blind powder perma steath in which case AOE that kitten. Especially if you see it against a wall they are there spamming 2.

I wrote this quick so it’s not in detail but it’s simple. I just see people crying about it. If anything thieves would probably have the most to cry about against other thieves and stealth. As its pretty much whoever gets the jump on the other that usually wins in a 1v1 with glassy thief.

i’d like this instant cast+instant land super 3000 range radius AoE cripple+immob+stun+knock+insta kill that ignore blind skillss where do i get them?

shadow refuge is the only counterable stealth skill pretty much if you manage to push the thief out

(edited by Rezzet.3614)

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Kaizer.7135

Kaizer.7135

If I were to modify stealth.

Failed attacks cause you to leave stealth.

Hell no, this would kill Thieves for a lot of people I know since we play with a constant 250+ms ping. We can literally be right behind someone and have our backstabs miss.

Youre not the only people and profession that play with high ping you know.
Also, backstab does the bonus damage from the sides too.

But we are the only class that has our most powerful skill (backstab) come from stealth, revealed on miss means it’s a waste of an attack and we can’t use it again for another 4secs.

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Turtle Dragon.9241

Turtle Dragon.9241

If I were to modify stealth.

Failed attacks cause you to leave stealth.

Hell no, this would kill Thieves for a lot of people I know since we play with a constant 250+ms ping. We can literally be right behind someone and have our backstabs miss.

Youre not the only people and profession that play with high ping you know.
Also, backstab does the bonus damage from the sides too.

But we are the only class that has our most powerful skill (backstab) come from stealth, revealed on miss means it’s a waste of an attack and we can’t use it again for another 4secs.

What if Thief get Revealed only if they land a hit?
So Thieves would lose Stealth if they whiff the attack, but not get Revealed. Meaning they could Stealth again. They get Revealed only if the hit lands. Backstab spam has no counter right now, you cannot even block/dodge it because the Thief can just spam Backstab until you run out of blocks/dodges.

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: DuranArgith.1354

DuranArgith.1354

If I were to modify stealth.

Failed attacks cause you to leave stealth.

Hell no, this would kill Thieves for a lot of people I know since we play with a constant 250+ms ping. We can literally be right behind someone and have our backstabs miss.

Youre not the only people and profession that play with high ping you know.
Also, backstab does the bonus damage from the sides too.

But we are the only class that has our most powerful skill (backstab) come from stealth, revealed on miss means it’s a waste of an attack and we can’t use it again for another 4secs.

No, youre not the only class that have powerful skills on long cooldowns. 4s is nothing.
And those skills are also affected by ping.
Only other classes cant do it from stealth and are highly telegraphed.

Again, to be honest I have nothing against the thief class, I dont think it needs any nerfs at all. Just the kitten Lyssa runes that carry the class so hard.

(edited by DuranArgith.1354)

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: draugris.9872

draugris.9872

Stealth is not counterable in this game, (no AoE is clearly not a counter) it is a lame mechanic how this works here. Press a button, vanish, go your way, gg. It´s just easy mode. Thiefs which are questionable from a class design point of view by itself relying so heavily on stealth leads to state we have now. Look at wvw solo roamers, 90% thiefs, it´s ridiculous, you can not take this kitten seriously, it´s just another way how anet trolls the playerbase. And no stealth (as the thief) will never be fixed because that would imply the Devs acknowledge that they did something wrong. In the mean time, just avoid thiefs, it is not worth the time.

Mondsucht [MS] – Kodash

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Maugetarr.6823

Maugetarr.6823

remove lyssa runes. problem solved

That’s the easiest way to bring more problems due to condispam being able to destroy low hp class with few condi removals (thief in 1st position)

so giving them aegis, stability and protection while putting down a blind field and immobilizing/basilisk venom, making it really hard for you to retaliate, while eating insane burst, is not a problem in your eyes?

And all that every time they use their elite which has the lowest cd in the game?
you can leave the remove all condis in lyssa runes if you want. Its the boons that are the problem.

insane burst comes from ogre rune thieves…

Right… Because thieves need ogre runes to do decent burst.
[sarcasm]I also started pvp yesterday.[/sarcasm]

Im just going to put here that BV is actually a very mediocre “elite” on its own (1 second channel,1.5 second stun, warning on buff bar, single target, 45 second CD). Lyssa is actually more of an elite skill than the skill in itself. The only thing special about BV is its ability to trigger lyssa runes.

Blank Players [BDL]-Anvil Rock
Maugen Rawr- Thief/Ele
Rebalance Ideas for Thief

(edited by Maugetarr.6823)

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Necrotize.2974

Necrotize.2974

Stealth is not counterable in this game, (no AoE is clearly not a counter) it is a lame mechanic how this works here. Press a button, vanish, go your way, gg. It´s just easy mode. Thiefs which are questionable from a class design point of view by itself relying so heavily on stealth leads to state we have now. Look at wvw solo roamers, 90% thiefs, it´s ridiculous, you can not take this kitten seriously, it´s just another way how anet trolls the playerbase. And no stealth (as the thief) will never be fixed because that would imply the Devs acknowledge that they did something wrong. In the mean time, just avoid thiefs, it is not worth the time.

You realize that applies to one type of thief, only in roaming WvW, and it can work for other classes too lol(ever try catching a GS warrior who doesn’t want to be caught?). Those thieves build for roaming and want to be able to escape should they become outnumbered or bite off more than they can chew. This means that if you are more skilled than them, chances are they won’t kill you because the second they’re low on hp they will refuge and run away. Could just be me but solo roaming is such a small part of WvW and I really doubt balance should be made with solo roaming as a priority. Take that same thief and put him pretty much anywhere else in WvW and he’s dead from random AoE in seconds, stealth or no stealth.

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Black Teagan.9215

Black Teagan.9215

Stealth will never be fair and more than a spam mechanic, as long as it dont get a complete rework.
In the duration of stealth and revealed and in the numbers of skills, which trigger stealth.

To add just a few more breaker to stealth will change nothing, because mesmers do not must attack to inflict dmg, this do their illusions, while the mesmer can stay hide in stealth.

I really hope ANet make plans to change stealth and buff the thief, because every build without stealth is nearly unplayable and it makes no funny to be forced to play with stealth, if you want to good dmg, remove conditions, heal yourself, reduce dmg or generally survive with this class.

Caleb Ferendir
-Charr Thief-
It’s good to be bad!

(edited by Black Teagan.9215)

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Ensign.2189

Ensign.2189

In-combat stealth is genuinely a learn to play issue; I’ve landed more Cloak and Daggers on invisible thieves than I can count, and many more than have successfully backstabbed me. It’s certainly not ‘OMG they can be anywhere!’; you know where they used their stealth, they only move so fast, and there are only a few places it makes sense for them to go. I won’t pretend that it’s an easy skill, but you don’t need to see where someone is to know where they are.

I think there’s a legitimate gripe with long duration stealth as a near guaranteed disengage (Shadow Refuge, big stacks from Black Powder + Heartseeker). That’s really frustrating to play against, and when someone wants to disengage with a long duration stealth you really can’t predict their movement.

The 3-4 second stealth you get from using a skill in combat though? That plays really well, has strong counter-play, and taxes a skill set nothing else really does. I don’t see any issues.

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: pza.8024

pza.8024

In-combat stealth is genuinely a learn to play issue; I’ve landed more Cloak and Daggers on invisible thieves than I can count, and many more than have successfully backstabbed me. It’s certainly not ‘OMG they can be anywhere!’; you know where they used their stealth, they only move so fast, and there are only a few places it makes sense for them to go. I won’t pretend that it’s an easy skill, but you don’t need to see where someone is to know where they are.

I think there’s a legitimate gripe with long duration stealth as a near guaranteed disengage (Shadow Refuge, big stacks from Black Powder + Heartseeker). That’s really frustrating to play against, and when someone wants to disengage with a long duration stealth you really can’t predict their movement.

The 3-4 second stealth you get from using a skill in combat though? That plays really well, has strong counter-play, and taxes a skill set nothing else really does. I don’t see any issues.

A thief should actually learn how and when to use his stealth ability, and not just spam it around. like frenzy. quickness comes at a cost and must be well considered before usage.

i could even imagine stealth deactivating your weapon skills until you unstealth. this way, it would become predictable when the thief would uncover, making a direct backstab/anything else counterable by skilled players. the problem is, smoke fields that grant area stealth on blast finishers would result in scamplay, especially in WvW, same goes for shadow refuge, so it’s not really a solution.

tl;dr: +1 stealth overhaul. needs less spam, moar skill.

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: RyuDragnier.9476

RyuDragnier.9476

Again people, the only thing that would be needed to stop the spam is to fix Black Powder to stop the D/P stealth combo. There, the only way to spam stealth then would be through Cloak and Dagger, which is high risk high reward, considering you HAVE to hit something in melee range to activate the stealth on it. Since the thief would most likely be staying in close range for backstab as well, this makes them VERY easy to counter.

[hS]
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Thoth Divine.8642

Thoth Divine.8642

Again people, the only thing that would be needed to stop the spam is to fix Black Powder to stop the D/P stealth combo. There, the only way to spam stealth then would be through Cloak and Dagger, which is high risk high reward, considering you HAVE to hit something in melee range to activate the stealth on it. Since the thief would most likely be staying in close range for backstab as well, this makes them VERY easy to counter.

I like this idea, I think as some have mentioned, Stealth needs to be something that you can’t just spam your way to victory. I think that’s my biggest gripe, how Thieves can reset the fight how many times they want, leave combat, gain full hp (usually much faster than their opponent) and get at it again constantly, with very little risk.

I definitely don’t think Thieves are overpowered, simply that Stealth is a broken and cheesy mechanic that needs to be reworked. I agree maybe any damage breaking stealth would be a little bit stupid in this current state of the game, however I can see taking 15-20% damage under stealth applying “Reveal” definitely be a step in the right direction.

Blessed Curse – Symbolic DH
Thoth Divine – Power Necro
I Hope You Die – Burst Berserker

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Spicyhash.7605

Spicyhash.7605

All skills/utilities besides stealth skills (dagger 1, shortbow 1, sword 1, pistol 1) should be disabled like they are in plague/death shroud.

CD

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: pza.8024

pza.8024

All skills/utilities besides stealth skills (dagger 1, shortbow 1, sword 1, pistol 1) should be disabled like they are in plague/death shroud.

^people yelling at people using smokefields and shadow refugee’s deactivating their skills yeah.

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Agony.3542

Agony.3542

Yup, the only “counterplay” to D/P stealth is running away when the thief uses BP and thats kind of dumb if you ask me (and it often times wont work either).
Just remove this particular combo, let BP be a dark field if you want, or no field at all. Maybe rework skill 4 to give you stealth (in some acceptable way) or (which I wouldn’t like, since this would hurt thiefs PvE viability, rework BP comlpetely.

RIP game 2012-2014

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Bombsaway.7198

Bombsaway.7198

There would be soooooo many unintended consequences of changing stealth at this point the way people are suggesting.

Not saying that a change wouldn’t help, but this is a longer term over the horizon fix when the thief is the primary focus class. Right now, you have rangers, elementalists and warriors getting reviewed.

This is one of those areas where a hasty fix would be a very bad one!

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Kaizer.7135

Kaizer.7135

If I were to modify stealth.

Failed attacks cause you to leave stealth.

Hell no, this would kill Thieves for a lot of people I know since we play with a constant 250+ms ping. We can literally be right behind someone and have our backstabs miss.

Youre not the only people and profession that play with high ping you know.
Also, backstab does the bonus damage from the sides too.

But we are the only class that has our most powerful skill (backstab) come from stealth, revealed on miss means it’s a waste of an attack and we can’t use it again for another 4secs.

No, youre not the only class that have powerful skills on long cooldowns. 4s is nothing.
And those skills are also affected by ping.
Only other classes cant do it from stealth and are highly telegraphed.

Again, to be honest I have nothing against the thief class, I dont think it needs any nerfs at all. Just the kitten Lyssa runes that carry the class so hard.

Miss with a C&D, you’re down 6 initiative. You miss that backstab then you’re right next to your opponent, revealed for 4 secs with only half of your initiative left if you don’t have 15 points in Trickey. With D/P it’s 9 initiative to stealth. Of course you can increase initiative gain, but Shadow Arts isn’t the best to build for in sPvP.

Atleast with other classes you can rotate through your skills, switch weapon sets and still have skills available. Thieves have a resource pool for our skills, if we don’t manage that correctly then we die. And 4s is a LOT for us, when we’re out of stealth we take a ton of damage, we don’t have invulnerables like other classes, clones, CC, HA. Stealth is our only defense and offense really.

Unless you run sword, but bleh, IS was nerfed to crap and so was vigor.

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: pza.8024

pza.8024

There would be soooooo many unintended consequences of changing stealth at this point the way people are suggesting.

Not saying that a change wouldn’t help, but this is a longer term over the horizon fix when the thief is the primary focus class. Right now, you have rangers, elementalists and warriors getting reviewed.

This is one of those areas where a hasty fix would be a very bad one!

definetly agreed. I’m really one of the players who would be looking forward to see the stealth mechanic changed, but it must be a better system than now.

I’ll just save a dev from posting this:
keep the suggestions coming!

we need to find a good way.

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Rezzet.3614

Rezzet.3614

the spammable blind alone is ridiculous

Buff Thieves, make Stealth break on damage.

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Einlanzer.1627

Einlanzer.1627

The problem with this suggestion is that Stealth needs to work as a defensive tool because of how squishy thieves are.

I would actually argue that it’s insufficient in its current state from a damage mitigation perspective, even if it’s arguably OP as an offensive tool.

Something probably needs to change, I just can’t quite put a finger on what.