Condition Damage needs to be Toned down

Condition Damage needs to be Toned down

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Posted by: Sinister.5792

Sinister.5792

Condition dmg in the game is so lame and very passive. Few 1 spam from engi, necro or pistol thief, or anything that has to do with

Instant application of

Burning
Poison
Torment
Confusion

makes it very *not" funny at all

ill show you clip where condi is so dominant it takes no skill to "almost kill*

in this video I have used thief as example

Thief vs this mesmer
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=fNkd6hpTbcPNkeloP2iFaIh4l5k2TGxc#.U5fPevldWSo

other one
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=fNkd6hpTbcO%2FwcCbIXjbBYh4l5k2TGxc#.U5g4vvldWSo

the mesmer is not good i know, but still the main issue here is the condition dmg and how passively taking all the hp of the opponent

even an engineer no handed could kill an enemy down using kits like bomb, grenade, flamethrower

the mechanics of the game is so horrible because of this..

Some questions are
*Will condi cleanse increase your chance vs condition builds?"

No.. no.. and nope..

It will not increase your chance at all.. enjoy being spammed by one skill and being dropped dead by constant burning, poison from sigil of doomed, and instant application of whatever that comes out from him…

new stat should be introduce to balance the condition damage
as we all know you only need 1 stat to increase your condition damage which is the

CONDITION DAMAGE
but for longer duration surprise surprise!
CONDITION DURATION

condition builds require only these 2 while on zerkers its different.. which requires 3 stats..

There should be changes in the stats and the skill mechanics of the game

I am not saying to nerf the other class and buff my own class
I am aiming for the balance of the game
and other pvpers have been talking about this like alot of times

as well there are alot of many points to talk about balancing the game
you dont wanna see game full of cleansing elementalists vs condi engineers and condi necros, bunker meta is so horrible and boring and makes the conquest no fun at all..

but yea i have so many things to discuss anyways need some ideas from you guys what do you think?

TL:DR
Condition damage is OP, lets discuss about it why you’re not taking the redpill in gw2 yet.

#BalanceGW2

I kill 2 birds with over 9000 stones

(edited by Sinister.5792)

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Posted by: Terrahero.9358

Terrahero.9358

Ow look, its this again.

If Conditions are so “brokenly OP”, why does everyone consider Conditions worthless in PvE? Worthless in WvW zergs? And even roaming in WvW is dominated by power builds, not conditions.
And yes, even in sPvP as we clearly saw very recently in the ToL, Conditions builds are quite unpopular in higher tiers of skill.
Even tough people like you have been spouting their anti-condition dogma for months prior to the ToL, yet it clearly shows it that those who “learned to play” deal with conditions so well, hardly anyone bothers running it.

All you present here is anecdotal “evidence”, and a bunch of buzz words and self-declared facts that are actually not true at all. Basicly you sit here, wave a pretty screenshot in our face, feed us a bunch of lies and deceit, and expect everyone to keel over and join your “Lets Destroy Condition Builds”-movement.

Goodluck with that endeavor. Simple fact is, Power builds rule this game and have done so since the day of launch.

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

Hey, tPvP isn’t exactly dominated by condition builds either, as exemplified by the prevalence of Guardians, and their domination of the whole sub-mode.

And even in sPvP, aka Newbieland, condition builds only work against people who insist that somehow building against direct damage (Toughness) is expected but you cannot expect people to build against conditions. Because you know, sense this makes.

So yeah, if conditions are so broken, how come they’re not? Congrats, you died to a condition build. Change your setup, condition builds are terrible and not difficult to get around.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Cufufalating.8479

Cufufalating.8479

In neither of those clips did the mesmer use (or even have?) any sort of cleansing. Of course he got wrecked by conditions.

It’s like going in with no armour on then wondering why thieves are 1-hitting you with BS.. Duh.

The fact is those clips show how not broke conditions are. They thief was using all 3 utilitys to condi-burst on the mesmer, and even using all his utilities for 1 burst it didnt kill the mesmer. If he had just taken Mantra of Resolve that mesmer, aweful as he was, would have dominated the thief.

Cufufalating – Ranger / Part-Time Mesmer
Gunnar’s Hold

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Posted by: Linnael.1069

Linnael.1069

WvW roaming is dominated by condition thieves and PU mesmers which are condition and hybrid. Everybody else has to outplay to catch up. The ONLY reason that conditions aren’t more popular is the condition cap, which makes them useless for anything outside of solo roaming WvW.

If you are a roamer, you will immediately recognize how stupid this system is. Conditions are OP in situations where the cap is not reached. There’s only one stat you need to invest in, and you can out-dps berserker builds by spamming uautoattack on a number of builds. Tell me how many pistol autos i’m supposed to dodge. Tell me how I’m supposed to counter their attrition build with burst, when they get to have max damage while carrying around Vitality/Toughness on every piece of gear. It’s mindblowingly broken.

In any other game mode, it’s hardcore shutdown by the condition cap. This leads bad players to think that “conditions must be ok, nobody uses them”, but really they’re just in a binary system, where they either suck balls or are totally overpowered depending on the case. In the game as it stands, not many people roam compared to pve, and thus you don’t see many condition users.

Stormbluff Isle – Syliara
Elementalist – Necromancer – Warrior

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

WvW roaming is dominated by condition thieves and PU mesmers which are condition and hybrid. Everybody else has to outplay to catch up. The ONLY reason that conditions aren’t more popular is the condition cap, which makes them useless for anything outside of solo roaming WvW.

Right. That’s why tPvP is all condition builds I take it, especially at the top end?

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Linnael.1069

Linnael.1069

WvW roaming is dominated by condition thieves and PU mesmers which are condition and hybrid. Everybody else has to outplay to catch up. The ONLY reason that conditions aren’t more popular is the condition cap, which makes them useless for anything outside of solo roaming WvW.

Right. That’s why tPvP is all condition builds I take it, especially at the top end?

tPvP is a different beast. When you have the team coordination to not cap out and the small team size/relative prevalence of 1v1/2v2 scenarios, it plays alot more like the soloroam scenario than anything else in the game. You should also note that the same issue arises. Conditions overpoweringly effective when in the 1% of situations where the cap isn’t making them useless.

Stormbluff Isle – Syliara
Elementalist – Necromancer – Warrior

(edited by Linnael.1069)

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Posted by: pierwola.9602

pierwola.9602

Tell me how many pistol autos i’m supposed to dodge.

You dodge auto-attacks ?

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Posted by: Tongku.5326

Tongku.5326

Condition dmg in the game is so lame and very passive. Few 1 spam from engi, necro or pistol thief, or anything that has to do with

Instant application of

Burning
Poison
Torment
Confusion

makes it very *not" funny at all

ill show you clip where condi is so dominant it takes no skill to "almost kill*

in this video I have used thief as example

Thief vs this mesmer
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=fNkd6hpTbcPNkeloP2iFaIh4l5k2TGxc#.U5fPevldWSo

other one
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=fNkd6hpTbcO%2FwcCbIXjbBYh4l5k2TGxc#.U5g4vvldWSo

the mesmer is not good i know, but still the main issue here is the condition dmg and how passively taking all the hp of the opponent

even an engineer no handed could kill an enemy down using kits like bomb, grenade, flamethrower

the mechanics of the game is so horrible because of this..

Some questions are
*Will condi cleanse increase your chance vs condition builds?"

No.. no.. and nope..

It will not increase your chance at all.. enjoy being spammed by one skill and being dropped dead by constant burning, poison from sigil of doomed, and instant application of whatever that comes out from him…

new stat should be introduce to balance the condition damage
as we all know you only need 1 stat to increase your condition damage which is the

CONDITION DAMAGE
but for longer duration surprise surprise!
CONDITION DURATION

condition builds require only these 2 while on zerkers its different.. which requires 3 stats..

There should be changes in the stats and the skill mechanics of the game

I am not saying to nerf the other class and buff my own class
I am aiming for the balance of the game
and other pvpers have been talking about this like alot of times

as well there are alot of many points to talk about balancing the game
you dont wanna see game full of cleansing elementalists vs condi engineers and condi necros, bunker meta is so horrible and boring and makes the conquest no fun at all..

but yea i have so many things to discuss anyways need some ideas from you guys what do you think?

TL:DR
Condition damage is OP, lets discuss about it why you’re not taking the redpill in gw2 yet.

#BalanceGW2

LAWL !!!!!

Condi dmg didn’t cause me to quit the game entirely. White damage did. GWEN meta and it’s staleness along with zerker meta in PvE FTL.

Yes, pls pls pls balance the white dmg and crits, and no, the recent changes such as ferocity etc. are a complete joke. They need some REAL changes.

Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF

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Posted by: Dee Jay.2460

Dee Jay.2460

The problem with condition damage is that unlike melee attacks, conditions attacks are poorly telegraphed and tend to be applied by proccs and random effects.

And Warrior’s Evicerate may hit you for 6k. But it will be a swing with a limited range, easy to anticipate when he switches to Axe. It’s a fairly fast animation but can still be dodged if expected.

A single Incendiary Ammo procc on the other hand can deal the same amount of damage and come from practically anything. It’s practically impossible to avoid completely.

They are also too generously applied by all sorts of effects like exploding Illusions and pets. They just end up flying around everywhere.

And once you spec for conditions, these types of spammed conditions end up being actually quite dangerous.

It’s not the big, telegraphed condition attacks like the Warrior mainhand Sword burst skill that are the problems. It’s all the other stuff that is constantly spammed that makes conditions so OP.

And the +40% condition duration food just exasperates the problem.

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Posted by: dancingmonkey.4902

dancingmonkey.4902

I disagree with that. For every condition damage attack that you can list as being poorly telegraphed, I can list you one that is heavily telegraphed plus a direct damage skill that is poorly telegraphed.

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

I disagree with that. For every condition damage attack that you can list as being poorly telegraphed, I can list you one that is heavily telegraphed plus a direct damage skill that is poorly telegraphed.

Exactly this. For every random condition proc there are similar mechanics for power.

If conditions were too strong, they would be seen much more. But they aren’t, they are just a different way to deal damage.

But of Corpse – Watch us on YouTube
My PvP Minion Build

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Posted by: gawker.8340

gawker.8340

Condition duration food is the culprit. 40% duration is insane. That’s analogous to +40% dmg for a power build.

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Posted by: Cufufalating.8479

Cufufalating.8479

Condition duration food is the culprit. 40% duration is insane. That’s analogous to +40% dmg for a power build.

Hard to argue with the food (both the +ve one and the -ve one) being way OP compared to other foods, but then that needs to be the thing which is fixed not conditions in general.

Cufufalating – Ranger / Part-Time Mesmer
Gunnar’s Hold

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Posted by: Linnael.1069

Linnael.1069

Tell me how many pistol autos i’m supposed to dodge.

You dodge auto-attacks ?

Exactly the kitten point. You can’t.
kitten you must have been so confused by that post.

Stormbluff Isle – Syliara
Elementalist – Necromancer – Warrior

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

Exactly the kitten point. You can’t.
kitten you must have been so confused by that post.

Because an auto that deals 2k damage over 10 seconds is too strong, but a power auto that does 3k instantly is fine. Gotcha.

But of Corpse – Watch us on YouTube
My PvP Minion Build

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Posted by: Linnael.1069

Linnael.1069

Exactly the kitten point. You can’t.
kitten you must have been so confused by that post.

Because an auto that deals 2k damage over 10 seconds is too strong, but a power auto that does 3k instantly is fine. Gotcha.

2k over ten seconds is laughable. Learn about some condition builds.

Stormbluff Isle – Syliara
Elementalist – Necromancer – Warrior

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Posted by: Epidemix Revenge.4862

Epidemix Revenge.4862

If anything I think there should be a debuff that increases conditions damage like vulnerability does for direct damage. I’d call it Exposed or Exposure.

And a debuff that makes you randomly spread your conditions to allies..or maybe even enemies for that matter. I’d call it Virulence.

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

2k over ten seconds is laughable. Learn about some condition builds.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQJArImgYokC0clRHAWAA-TJRAwAAOBAKeAAM3focZAA

You were saying? No one even runs that build, but that is a very high condition damage and its only 2k for an auto attack over 10 seconds.

But of Corpse – Watch us on YouTube
My PvP Minion Build

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Posted by: Linnael.1069

Linnael.1069

2k over ten seconds is laughable. Learn about some condition builds.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQJArImgYokC0clRHAWAA-TJRAwAAOBAKeAAM3focZAA

You were saying? No one even runs that build, but that is a very high condition damage and its only 2k for an auto attack over 10 seconds.

I can pick out an infinite number of builds nobody runs that only do 2k condition damage per autoattack. Generally, trying to be knowledgeable in a conversation like this demands that you know the builds people do run. Like really, I have no idea what you’re even trying to prove now, and even less of an idea why i’m still responding to these things

Stormbluff Isle – Syliara
Elementalist – Necromancer – Warrior

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

2k over ten seconds is laughable. Learn about some condition builds.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQJArImgYokC0clRHAWAA-TJRAwAAOBAKeAAM3focZAA

You were saying? No one even runs that build, but that is a very high condition damage and its only 2k for an auto attack over 10 seconds.

I can pick out an infinite number of builds nobody runs that only do 2k condition damage per autoattack. Generally, trying to be knowledgeable in a conversation like this demands that you know the builds people do run. Like really, I have no idea what you’re even trying to prove now, and even less of an idea why i’m still responding to these things

The build he chose was also set up to maximize the damage from said auto-attack. It still didn’t even reach 2k over 11 seconds.

If the maximized auto-damage build isn’t reaching 2k over 10 seconds, how the hell is anyone getting higher on a condition build?

Dragonbrand |Drarnor Kunoram: Charr Necro
http://www.twitch.tv/reverse830
I’m a Geeleiver

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Posted by: Linnael.1069

Linnael.1069

2k over ten seconds is laughable. Learn about some condition builds.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQJArImgYokC0clRHAWAA-TJRAwAAOBAKeAAM3focZAA

You were saying? No one even runs that build, but that is a very high condition damage and its only 2k for an auto attack over 10 seconds.

I can pick out an infinite number of builds nobody runs that only do 2k condition damage per autoattack. Generally, trying to be knowledgeable in a conversation like this demands that you know the builds people do run. Like really, I have no idea what you’re even trying to prove now, and even less of an idea why i’m still responding to these things

The build he chose was also set up to maximize the damage from said auto-attack. It still didn’t even reach 2k over 11 seconds.

If the maximized auto-damage build isn’t reaching 2k over 10 seconds, how the hell is anyone getting higher on a condition build?

Nobody relies on just stats and base applications, and I never said the problem was that every auto will do crazy damage. Take an auto attack. Throw on incendiary powder, burning precision, glyph of elemental power, dhuumfire, etc, take your pick. There’s a myriad of passive effects along the same lines. Add on hit sigils. Add on swap sigils. Suddenly the next auto you get hit with is slapping you for another 5k of burning, 3k of poison, and is throwing another damaging cover every time it lands. It will not have a cooldown until you take that damage, it will be up every ten seconds or less, it will not be telegraphed.

All of a sudden it is mandatory that you have at least three plus cleanses up every ten seconds unless you want to eat 10k damage from the next rng auto that rolls your unlucky number. This is the problem. The counter-play is minute. Now add the rest of the build, the part that is guaranteed to not be squishy enough to eat comparable direct damage, the part that has it’s own damage on top of that.

Now show me how I can get my next power autoattack to do an additional 5k damage every ten seconds, only going on cooldown when it pops.

As a side note, you’re going to be doing this damage to anybody. That warrior is going to be plinking away on anybody with real toughness for less than 1.5k autos.

Stormbluff Isle – Syliara
Elementalist – Necromancer – Warrior

(edited by Linnael.1069)

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Sigil of Air+Fire. Easily hits over 5k damage every 10 seconds.

Dhuumfire only procs on Life Blast now. Don’t try to pass it off as a “random, uncounterable” proc.

Dragonbrand |Drarnor Kunoram: Charr Necro
http://www.twitch.tv/reverse830
I’m a Geeleiver

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Posted by: style.6173

style.6173

Ow look, its this again.

If Conditions are so “brokenly OP”, why does everyone consider Conditions worthless in PvE? Worthless in WvW zergs? And even roaming in WvW is dominated by power builds, not conditions.
And yes, even in sPvP as we clearly saw very recently in the ToL, Conditions builds are quite unpopular in higher tiers of skill.
Even tough people like you have been spouting their anti-condition dogma for months prior to the ToL, yet it clearly shows it that those who “learned to play” deal with conditions so well, hardly anyone bothers running it.

All you present here is anecdotal “evidence”, and a bunch of buzz words and self-declared facts that are actually not true at all. Basicly you sit here, wave a pretty screenshot in our face, feed us a bunch of lies and deceit, and expect everyone to keel over and join your “Lets Destroy Condition Builds”-movement.

Goodluck with that endeavor. Simple fact is, Power builds rule this game and have done so since the day of launch.

You clearly do not play WvW. You are completely wrong about zergs. A lot of them run food to reduce condi duration. Why? Condi is OP there.

You are also wrong about about TOL. It is about bunker, not power.

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Posted by: Terravos.4059

Terravos.4059

conditions in Zergs are not overpowered…I’m amazed you even think that.

Pretty much the second you hit any zerg stack with a condition, its going to be cured, hence why every bloody zerg runs power builds..not condition builds.

As for condition damage being overpowered…. Condition damage isn’t, hell Condition Duration isn’t either…I’ve explained this a 100 times through countless threads.

The thing that makes Conditions strong is Condition Coverage, as in putting multiple conditions on a target.

You tell me you can stack 25 bleeds and nothing else on me? I’ll laugh as that’s not scary, you tell me you can stack 5 bleeds along with 5 other non damage conditions, you’re far more scary.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Xsorus/videos?view=0
Xsorus – Ranger PvP movies Creator of the BM Bunker

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Posted by: TyPin.9860

TyPin.9860

If you are a roamer, you will immediately recognize how stupid this system is. Conditions are OP in situations where the cap is not reached. There’s only one stat you need to invest in, and you can out-dps berserker builds by spamming uautoattack on a number of builds. Tell me how many pistol autos i’m supposed to dodge. Tell me how I’m supposed to counter their attrition build with burst, when they get to have max damage while carrying around Vitality/Toughness on every piece of gear. It’s mindblowingly broken.

Wrong, wrong wrong. To maximize condition damage you need 3 stats. Condition damage, condition duration and precision. Even if you invest in all 3 stats, I don’t believe you out DPS a zerker. Take warrior zerker for instance, who auto attakcs for 2k+ and now show me a condition auto attack that consistently hits for 2k+. While you might get close, including certain traits that proc on critical hit and investing in also in condition duration, you won’t get there, if you leave precision out and ignore condition duration. And even all included, you will get close, but won’t beat it.

[ROSE] – Fissure of Woe
Chronomancy works, I am proof of it. Now stop asking me questions. Time must be preserved!

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

You won’t out-DPS zerker damage because direct-damage outscales you per point. So the gap actually widens with gear.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Terrahero.9358

Terrahero.9358

Ow look, its this again.

If Conditions are so “brokenly OP”, why does everyone consider Conditions worthless in PvE? Worthless in WvW zergs? And even roaming in WvW is dominated by power builds, not conditions.
And yes, even in sPvP as we clearly saw very recently in the ToL, Conditions builds are quite unpopular in higher tiers of skill.
Even tough people like you have been spouting their anti-condition dogma for months prior to the ToL, yet it clearly shows it that those who “learned to play” deal with conditions so well, hardly anyone bothers running it.

All you present here is anecdotal “evidence”, and a bunch of buzz words and self-declared facts that are actually not true at all. Basicly you sit here, wave a pretty screenshot in our face, feed us a bunch of lies and deceit, and expect everyone to keel over and join your “Lets Destroy Condition Builds”-movement.

Goodluck with that endeavor. Simple fact is, Power builds rule this game and have done so since the day of launch.

You clearly do not play WvW. You are completely wrong about zergs. A lot of them run food to reduce condi duration. Why? Condi is OP there.

You are also wrong about about TOL. It is about bunker, not power.

I play WvW more then anything, and i think you are the one who is accidentally booting up an entirely different game.

Zergs dont run mass -40% condition duration because every zerg is chuck-full of Guardians and a fair amount of Ele’s and Necro’s. all of them spamming, either directly or indirectly, condition removal.
Going with -40% condition duration is a waste of gold.

And i wasnt wrong about TOL. Sure there were a lot of bunkers, but didnt everyone complain endlessly about the oh soooo overpowered Dire bunkers? Well most bunkers still went with power.

Accept the fact your Anti-Condition Crusade is a farce. Atleast arenanet looks at statistics more so then anything, which is why despite this hate campaign going on for almost a year now, Power has received more nerfs in general then Conditions. And justly so.

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Posted by: dancingmonkey.4902

dancingmonkey.4902

Sigil of Air+Fire. Easily hits over 5k damage every 10 seconds.

Dhuumfire only procs on Life Blast now. Don’t try to pass it off as a “random, uncounterable” proc.

I’m going to stop responding to you now, because you’re just straight up not prepared to have this conversation. Life Blast is an autoattack, and it’s even better that its 100% activation chance instead of random. Unless the necro is just straight up terrible, he’s not going to somehow be unable to land even one during a ds. Or should we just call constantly available projectile reflection a counter? Newsflash, when you can get it that counters half the game.

Sigil of Air/Fire denies the usage of on swap sigils, do ~1k damage per shot even using a berserker build, and cannot crit. You will need to get procs on both the exact instant that they are up to get 5k/10s, demanding that you continually hit your opponent with 0 interruption. You can prevent yourself from being continually hit. You cannot prevent that one auto from activating its condition load for 10k unless you perfectly avoid every single hit.

Now go respond to the actual arguments of the post instead of cherry picking the examples you thought you could challenge, and stop trying to pass off this poor fact checking as a counterargument.

The problem I am noticing here, is that you are claiming one specific auto attack, in a specific builds as the representation of all conditions. If a certain trait combination or build makes one single situation OP and your sitting here claiming conditions as a whole are OP, then you have no right to ridicule others comments as uninformed.

Especially when you are talking about IP specifically and claiming it causes 10,000 condition damage auto attacks. Even with full investment of 100% condition duration, IP doesn’t do over 6500 condition damage. At 100% condition duration, in full condition gear your auto attacks will do about 6300 total damage in bleeds and direct damage combined. Add in IP and that is 12,800 for 1280 DPS.

Now I put on full soldiers gear, and grab axe, and hop on my warrior. My auto attacks do 1400 and go up as vulnerability stacks up.

So let us compare.

You are complaining that trait invested engineer is doing 1280 DPS.

But your Okay with a soldier geared warrior doing 1400+DPS with his auto attacks, while having a few hundred more toughness and a few thousand more hit points.

And your posting insults left and right claiming no one is using facts or showing knowledge of professions being discussed.

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

I think as always the issue is psychological. People don’t take the application of effects serious, only the damage (for damaging skills).

This means that – hypothetically speaking – no one minds 20 stacks of Bleeds, if they were to not deal damage. They mind the 1600 auto attacks because They do damage to me!!!, but with conditions they don’t mind the application because that part doesn’t do any damage.
A few seconds later they’re losing health, and feel like there’s too little they can do about it while “dying on their own”.

Ofc, the issue is in considering the ticking damage the dangerous part, it really isn’t.

And per-attack, power-attacks both have higher damage, lower opportunity cost and better scaling. There’s no metric in which conditions are superior. Except, well, psychological warfare. They demoralize when you get 5s left to live and have nothing you can do about it. Nevermind that at that point you’d already be dead against a power-attacker, the condition-one still “feels” less fair.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Terrahero.9358

Terrahero.9358

Its also peoples weird mind boggling twist where they are a-okay with 12k backstabs, and tell you to just get more armour, or dodge, or whatever.
But tell them to get condition removal or some health and they call you insane and demand conditions nerfed. Rather then to stop neglecting their defense against conditions.

I think the underlying problem is that you need so much, so many things are “mandatory” you are left with very little to actually get some cool utility skills or traits, for fun and diversity.

You need a stunbreaker, you need to get toughness and/or something to deal with power burst, and you need something to deal with conditions. At this point most people run out of utility skill slots or traits to diversify their build.

I have this problem with stun breakers, i play several characters with zero stunbreakers. I sometimes get completely wrecked by a build that has a lot of CC, yes it is annoying. But i know what to do, get stunbreaker, but i dont want to give up something that i like more.
And i get the impression a lot of people are in the same mindset but then in regard to conditions. They know they should just get a better way to deal with conditions, but they dont want to give something up for it.

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Posted by: Cufufalating.8479

Cufufalating.8479

I think you the above posted summed it up more or less entirely.

I dont know what it is about conditions which makes people ignore them when designing builds and then when playing against condition builds, but people seem to think that they can take 1 maybe 2 utility to cleanse themselves with and then they should be immune to conditions. Thats just… not how it works.

Personally I almost always take too little condi removal, rather like Terra says he doesnt take stunbreakers. Just cant squeeze everything into the build, which is fine and I know my weakness is to conditions. It just means when I lose to someone using them I have to accept that it was my fault for not packing enough defence against it rather than crying that is OP and my one single trait couldnt nulify their entire build.

Cufufalating – Ranger / Part-Time Mesmer
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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

It’s equivalent to not bringing an avoidance or disengage skill against most burst builds, because when that thief gets you, you will be downed.

Or not bringing stunbreakers against CC or lockdown setups. You will go down, no questions asked.

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Posted by: Kiriakulos.1690

Kiriakulos.1690

@Liewec.2896

I remember you!
You’re the guy complaining that conditions deals too much damage and then posted screenshots of you dying to it over a 30+ and 60+ second interval.
Man condis really kill fast if they only take over a minute to kill someone, I mean wow, it’s like they take a lot of time to deal damage, or something…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Am-I-the-only-one-enough-of-this/first#post4085532

Here’s me showing how you’re reading the log wrong.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Am-I-the-only-one-enough-of-this/first#post4090496

Hope that helps your argument and stuff .

Attrition – A pretty name for taking longer than anyone else to kill something.

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Posted by: Linnael.1069

Linnael.1069

If you read the post a little more closely, I quote IP, or any procced burn effect, for about 5k. An underestimate by your calculation. The four per ten base duration is easily reproducible on stone shards ele or PU mesmer to name a few, so this is not a limited case. Condition builds of other types, for instance PU mesmers, don’t load this all at once but still have the same problem; improper damage mitigation for the amount of counterplay put in. Against the axe warrior, if you avoid 50% of his autos, you avoid 50 percent of that damage. Air and Fire sigils, due to their relatively low per activation damage and higher rate of activation, work closer to along these lines, being more homogenized in terms of applications over time. Against these rng proc builds on the other hand, if you avoid 50% of the autos you avoid significantly less than 50% of damage application. Consider also that there is little condition damage penalty for being at range, due to these effects applying equally at 1200 range, and the fact that you’ve selected a melee direct damage comparison against a low toughness target where auto attacking is only a few percent short of the highest possible dps for that weapon. The same can rarely be said of condition damage specs, and toughness is entirely a non-issue. I’m pretty much totally fine with a melee weapon in pvt gear doing more damage than a condition damage setup from range with only one stat difference and more difficult to avoid mechanics

Again, I’m not the one simplifying here.

In addition, fights are not dps races. Forcing your opponent into defensive actions reduces the damage you take while making it easier to apply damage. This is why a hard open is so critical. When a large amount of potential damage over the next ten seconds is lumped into one auto, there is an invaluable component of immediately beginning fights with offensive advantage. Now the opponent needs to both clear conditions and setup defenses that will stop you from interrupting them, while you setup whatever you like and lose much less through this downtime, as a larger proportion of your damage for the following time frame has been applied already.

For you others, yes, I’m fine with 12k backstabs. They can be avoided by spinning in circles and to do so both the thief and I would both need to be built completely glass. I’m a soloroaming zerker ele and I’ve only gotten hit for more than 10k twice. Both times fresh air deleted him immediately after. Condition builds have no such glass requirement, for either the target or the caster, neither is their damage reduced by turning around.

To the person saying that we’re not thinking about application, I really don’t know what you’re talking about. My whole point has been about how condition application is problematically easy and impossible to mitigate, leaving active removal the only real counter. Outside of gimmick cases, you should never be hit for more than 4k with a skill that didn’t have a massive tell for at least 3/4 of a second or some other specific mandate for application. We’ve already agreed that even condition autos will pop you for significantly more, so I think it’s pretty clear why active defensive options considered less valuable against conditions than against power builds, which is the real problem. I’m not complaining that condition damage is too difficult to get rid of. I play an ele, that’s not an issue. The issue is that you should be able to deal with condition damage builds the same way as direct builds. Evade, block, blind big tells. This is the play/counterplay system that arenanet has set up, and it works well and is interesting. What is not working well or interesting is the imbalanced nature of condition procs, which devalue active defense and turn the entire combat system into “Do I have enough removal?” This is why people take issue with “bring more removal” as the counterargument. There should be the option to outplay, via the same mechanisms in the rest of the game, if you find yourself in a condition fight. Instead, when you run into a condition build along these lines, you’re forced into a little mini-game that cares little for the majority of mechanics anet put in as defensive options. When people get owned by axe warriors, the responses are “dodge, blind, block, aegis, outrange.” What kind of response do you have for the person who gets owned by condition builds? “bring more removal” That should be an option, but not the only option, and the way condition application is working right now, it pretty much is.

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Posted by: Alkaholic.3875

Alkaholic.3875

Ummmm, I got to the part of the thread that talks about 2k dmg in 10 secs off one condi auto attack but let’s see. W/ this outdated build and one auto attack crit, u’ll do over 10K dmg if the person doesn’t clear the condi[s].

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQJAqelUUpdrlYxvLseNCbBByOsBRmlq85DEgkC-TFyCABAcgAOZ/BsU+d8JAAQ9Eeq+z0PAgxUCSKAYWWB-w

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

In addition, fights are not dps races.

Hrm, I think your premise is wrong. Yes, if you fight 1v1 they might not be, but if you fight 1v1 t here is one and only one way to improve your odds: bring friends.

Fighting fair is for the people who intend to lose, sorry. :P

Fights are DPS races, due to rally cascading. Get the first kill and you start a very significant chain reaction.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Ummmm, I got to the part of the thread that talks about 2k dmg in 10 secs off one condi auto attack but let’s see. W/ this outdated build and one auto attack crit, u’ll do over 10K dmg if the person doesn’t clear the condi[s].

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQJAqelUUpdrlYxvLseNCbBByOsBRmlq85DEgkC-TFyCABAcgAOZ/BsU+d8JAAQ9Eeq+z0PAgxUCSKAYWWB-w

No it won’t. The build editor doesn’t recognize the +100% condition duration cap, so every damaging condition will deal less damage than is listed there.

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Posted by: Alkaholic.3875

Alkaholic.3875

OK, I’ll simplify this to sPvP gear alone…

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQJAqelUUpdrlYxvLseNCbBByOsBRmlq85DEgkC-TJhAwAUeAAw2fgcZAAnAAA

5K dmg from IP proc, not even bringing up any other proc. A grenadeer traited nade auto attack will proc IP, Shrapnel, etc. I think this condi argument is only valid in 1v1s and as such, don’t care if anything is done about it but let’s not act like it’s inconsequential…

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

If it’s 1v1, it is inconsequential. 1v1 is no valid format of combat, it’s something you avoid and if you can’t help it are pressured into and then try to get the hell away from immediately.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

OK, I’ll simplify this to sPvP gear alone…

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQJAqelUUpdrlYxvLseNCbBByOsBRmlq85DEgkC-TJhAwAUeAAw2fgcZAAnAAA

5K dmg from IP proc, not even bringing up any other proc. A grenadeer traited nade auto attack will proc IP, Shrapnel, etc. I think this condi argument is only valid in 1v1s and as such, don’t care if anything is done about it but let’s not act like it’s inconsequential…

Cool, you can, 6.6% of the time, get 6705 condition damage off of a Grenade attack (proccing Shrapnel, Sharpshooter, and Incindiary Powder all at the same time). That’s…rather meaningless overall. You can take a single crit that procs one sigil and take that much easy from a Power build (say Axe Warrior or meditation Guardian), and that will happen much more frequently due to higher “on crit” chances.

Oh, and that damage still won’t actually happen because of tick timers. It will be lower, even in the best-case scenario.

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Posted by: JoshuaRAWR.4653

JoshuaRAWR.4653

This thread and some of the comments in it, got me thinking, what’s the most amount of damage an always applicable condition can do in the shortest time spam possible without being reliant on procs with internal cooldowns.

I came up with this.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQJAqYnMJSRT20EWNB/Tmwmg2qCe3lsEGtHwrDAA-TxRAABKcCAA4BAw0+DKqHAV1fmUJ4YK/CAgAMeyMAGv4Fv4Fv4Z36W36W36mUAQMNC-e

The stealth attack from the pistol #1. With 25 stacks of sigil of corruption, not counting the might from the venoms or any other sources (but you can easily get 10+ stacks with this build) it’s sitting at 5.4k bleed damage with a 7 second duration and 5.7k poison damage over 17 seconds on the steal.

That does seem a bit crazy at first, but that’s just 2 conditions which can easily be removed and pretty much every build has at least one form of condition removal, so whether or not it’s OP simply determines whom you’re fighting.

Warrior 80 | Guardian 80 | Ranger 80 | Engineer 80 |
Thief 80 | Elementalist 80 | Mesmer 80 | Necromancer 80 | Revenant TBA

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

Also note that it is a stealth attack. Compare it to backstab (an instant 10k damage), and all of a sudden it really isn’t all that unreasonable.

Damage is very comparable between the two damage sources. One is countered by certain mechanics, the other is countered by different ones.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Also note that it is a stealth attack. Compare it to backstab (an instant 10k damage), and all of a sudden it really isn’t all that unreasonable.

Damage is very comparable between the two damage sources. One is countered by certain mechanics, the other is countered by different ones.

And both are countered by just avoiding the attack in the first place.

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Posted by: Shaogin.2679

Shaogin.2679

Well at least you posted on one of the many condi op qq threads that already exist………oh wait.

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

tl/dr: condis builds offer too much advantage, anet favors condi tanks too much imo.

2 problems with condis imo:
1. you can build tank and still do absurd dmg via condis
2. controll that condis offer and how easy they are to apply is rather silly

Imagine if every heartseeker from thief would apply 30 sec cripple and chill.
Imagine if every backstab would apply 5 stacks of bleeding and 20 sec of burning.
Imagine if every cnd applied 5 stacks of confusion.
Just as an example. Suddenly fighting direct dmg builds wouldn’t be so funny anymore.

Yet for w/e reason it is fine that condis do almost as much dmg as direct builds, characters can still build tank, many have high heals or/and high mobility on top of it as well as wide amount of hard CC (engis, i am looking at you).

A 5 year old can tell you that if 2 characters did same dmg, the tankier one would win…Yet anet keeps buffing condi tanks while nerfing direct dmg builds as much as possible…

Not to mention how any kind of pvp (tpvp or wvw) in this game heavily favors bunkers.

This game’s balance is worse than ever, it promotes mindless spam while sitting afk and face tanking all dmg… terrible trade off concept or rather none at all. What happend to logic and common sense?

WoW had terrible pvp balance, but even WoW devs knew that giving tanks high dmg is stupid idea.

Now we have engineers that can build tank, spam every posssible condi in game, loaded with CC, with pets (hi turrets with reflects, REALLY???) and amazing heals (can’t be interrupted)… the only thing they are missing is perma stealth…

When players made FC for dueling, there was reason certain spells like engi crate and full tank were fobidden in fights, you would think anet devs would use that info… but naaaaaah let’s buff condi tanks even more~

All is Vain~
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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

tl/dr: condis builds offer too much advantage, anet favors condi tanks too much imo.

2 problems with condis imo:
1. you can build tank and still do absurd dmg via condis
2. controll that condis offer and how easy they are to apply is rather silly

Imagine if every heartseeker from thief would apply 30 sec cripple and chill.
Imagine if every backstab would apply 5 stacks of bleeding and 20 sec of burning.
Imagine if every cnd applied 5 stacks of confusion.
Just as an example. Suddenly fighting direct dmg builds wouldn’t be so funny anymore.

It wouldn’t be, but going with values that literally no skill in the game can replicate is pointless hyperbole and actually weakens your argument.

Yet for w/e reason it is fine that condis do almost as much dmg as direct builds, characters can still build tank, many have high heals or/and high mobility on top of it as well as wide amount of hard CC (engis, i am looking at you).

Ever crunched the numbers? What you find may surprise you (Soldier’s Gear out-damages Dire, for example).

A 5 year old can tell you that if 2 characters did same dmg, the tankier one would win…Yet anet keeps buffing condi tanks while nerfing direct dmg builds as much as possible…

Perhaps because the tankier one is so far behind in damage that it’s still quite fair?

Not to mention how any kind of pvp (tpvp or wvw) in this game heavily favors bunkers.

Only true in sPvP/tPvP. WvW doesn’t favor bunkers so much as AoE damage and CC.

This game’s balance is worse than ever, it promotes mindless spam while sitting afk and face tanking all dmg… terrible trade off concept or rather none at all. What happend to logic and common sense?

WoW had terrible pvp balance, but even WoW devs knew that giving tanks high dmg is stupid idea.

The balance seems pretty good to me, outside of a couple builds (Strength Runes Hambow, for example). Strangely, the “tank builds that do tons of damage” are primarily Power based builds.

Now we have engineers that can build tank, spam every posssible condi in game, loaded with CC, with pets (hi turrets with reflects, REALLY???) and amazing heals (can’t be interrupted)… the only thing they are missing is perma stealth…

Really? I don’t even main engineer and I can tell you that you’re flat-out wrong.

1. Fear access? Right, they have none. Same with Torment. Their conditions follow predictable rotations and most can be avoided by holding “w,” “e,” or “q.”

2. If they’re running turrets, their actual condition application kinda sucks. They have decent CC, but not that hot on the actual damage. Turrets are pretty easy to kite, just remember to dodge that net that comes once every 10 seconds (like you want to with any immobilize).

3. Every Engie heal can be interrupted. The only healing skills that can’t are both on Warrior (Healing Signet because it never gets activated and Defiant Stance because it’s only getting interrupted with extreme luck).

When players made FC for dueling, there was reason certain spells like engi crate and full tank were fobidden in fights, you would think anet devs would use that info… but naaaaaah let’s buff condi tanks even more~

Because those rules weren’t widespread? Those may have been things that you or some of your friends personally asked for, but the WvW FC was incredibly varied with no real structure.

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Posted by: DiazKincade.2891

DiazKincade.2891

~~3. Every Engie heal can be interrupted. The only healing skills that can’t are both on Warrior (Healing Signet because it never gets activated and Defiant Stance because it’s only getting interrupted with extreme luck).~~

Just thought I’d add that the mesmer signet is also like warrior signet. (if its used for a clones up build) Its typically only activated to add more phantasms. But even then that’s situational.

lvl80{Insert Class Here} Current main: Meana Mischeif-Mesmer

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

~~3. Every Engie heal can be interrupted. The only healing skills that can’t are both on Warrior (Healing Signet because it never gets activated and Defiant Stance because it’s only getting interrupted with extreme luck).~~

Just thought I’d add that the mesmer signet is also like warrior signet. (if its used for a clones up build) Its typically only activated to add more phantasms. But even then that’s situational.

Perhaps, but it can also get “interrupted” by killing the clones off.

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Posted by: Hammerguard.9834

Hammerguard.9834

The problem with condi damage seeming so strong is the players. Either they’re running condi duration food and you’re not, you have extremely low vitality because you and everyone else thinks you only need toughness, or you aren’t running good condi cleanse. Then you come on the forums and cry about how condi is kittenting on you.

… I still want tengu.