Guild Wars 2

That’s what this game should be called now. WvW is 99% condition spam, PvP is probably 80% condition spam. Even the thieves (since they’ve lost about 30% of their effectiveness when ferocity came into being) have moved on to condition spam thanks to the new trickery trait and dirt cheap krait runes.

Most fights are stalemates now unless someone lacks enough condition removal. It’s all about the conditions now…completely and totally.

Except warriors. They continue to just laugh off virtually ALL 1v1 damage thanks to absurd passive healing of which HS is only a part.

Look, a completely new and orginal thread. How about next time you take two seconds to search the forums and maybe see if a similar thread already exists eh? Then post in that thread instead of spawning multiple threads on the same topic that has already been argued to death.

Yeah, because hammers aren’t spamming cleave damage by multitudes of warriors and guardians.

Not to mention your mathematical complete misinformation about any profession losing 30% of their damage. At least if your going to make a complaint thread, you could be aware of the facts first. Unless you are referring to the 40% condition damage nerf to one of the engineer grenades. Which is significant considering only 2 out of 5 grenades do actual condition damage.

As to conditions, on the whole, a condition attack does congruent damage to a direct damage attack, only it takes multiple second to apply the same damage, while the direct damage attacks put all of the damage out at once. Either way it totals out to the same damage level.

Zergs have massive AoE condi cleanses, essentially neutering any condition builds to nil. So what is the problem?

Of course people might be TRYING conditions now cause they are trying new runes. Most thieves are still direct damage or hybrid where I play.

Engineers – Shouldn’t be surprised if you find a condi engineer
Elementalist – Surprised to see a condition Elementalist but they exist
Mesmer – Shouldn’t be surprised to see a condi mesmer
Guardian – LULZ
Ranger – Shouldn’t surprise you to see one
Warrior – Shouldn’t surprise you to see one
Necro – HELLO

This would be pre patch these all run either power or conditions pre patch I actually am seeing more long bow power rangers. 99% of WvW is not condition spam since every class except guardian atm has a viable condition build it shouldn’t surprise you to run across one. Ele’s have condi builds but most eles are running direct damage stacking might with strength runes right now.

Your probably dueling and or small man roaming either with other roamer pugs or your guild.

When I start seeing mass guardians running condition builds then I would take a good look but right now every class has a viable condition build in the game except the guardian those classes also have multiple direct damage builds.

Sure thieves might be trying krait runes and the new confusion on steal trait which basically lets them expand P/D without using perplexity runes anymore. I tried new krait runes it’s fun but I still prefer S/D.

99% of WvW use conditions. Guardians one of the most played classes in World vs World. Guardian Condi sucks as only burn won’t cut it and they have no cover condition.

Head going to explode!!!11!!1 my body is surpassing the 25 stacks of blood limit.

not true. I can outduel many warriors with ele

Oh look, more regurgitated “facts”.

Let me guess, you read someone else’s post about how conditions are overpowered? And instead of admitting your build is not fit to deal with conditions, or you yourself arent fit to deal with conditions, you found this convenient excuse.

And what better helps a healthy discussion then mindlessly pulling obviously, and wildly, exegerated numbers straight out of the last part of your colon in an attempt to shove this Anti-Condition dogma down everyones throat.

What Terrahero and Shaogin said.

Why is this in the “Profession Balance” thread? You are just complaining. Next time you post, post about something constructive that will incite lively debate.

Come on guis!! Condition Gaurdians are OP!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R46zZCn1_UI

Vyko.6953:

not true. I can outduel many warriors with ele

You are the exception though, if you take two player of equal skill, I would be the warrior would win more often.

oZii.2864:

Elementalist – Surprised to see a condition Elementalist but they exist
Guardian – LULZ

I have been Condi ele for months, think i was the first to even make post about it with builds. As for Guardian, i saw an INSANE condi guardian last week. He just melted people with Burning Ticks of over 1k, Poison, Torment and others.

Condi Guard i think will just get more and more popular. It will just take time for some of these insane builds i have personally seen gets out.

The problem is currently not the damage conditions but the NUMBER of conditions that all the spammy classes (Thief, Warrior, Necro, Engineer, Mesmer, Ranger) have access to conditions on low cool downs or spammable via auto attacks. Immobilize is insanely strong as well on Warrior and Ranger has very decent immobilize as well.

Some classes need conditions removed, others need durations reduced and cool downs increased. Tweaks need to be made that is for sure.

define spammy for me and how it applies to a warrior, ranger, necro, mesmer.

oZii.2864:

define spammy for me and how it applies to a warrior, ranger, necro, mesmer.

Warrior falls into 2 from my experience. You have the Perplexity + Distracting Strike noobs that run around with Hammer and just bash everything they have. 9 stacks of confusion every 15 seconds. Combined with food and other traits is rather insane. S/S seems to be quite popular with the Perma Torment as well. Also offers nice Bleeding and Cripple combined with a very long duration Immobilize (Flurry) Long bow can be quite popular as well with its Burning, Immobilize and bleeding.

Rangers differ slightly, You get some that just spam Spirits. While you get others That have insane amount of Immobilize. Normally running Spider and Entangle. Sword seems quite popular from those i have faced as well with its Poison, Cripple and Evades.

Necro, surely that is obvious. Mark spamming, into Scepter auto attack spamming. Combine that with the likes of Grasping Dead, Reapers Touch and Spinal shivers. Most of them normally run the trait as well so a free one at 50% health from what i have seen anyway. Lets not forget Signet of Spite. These skills should be used at the RIGHT time, not spammed the moment a fight starts…Sure it doesn’t always happen but it happens more often than not.

Most of them i see are PU Staff and Scepter/Torch builds. You get the odd one that will run Pistol or something. Though over all its pretty much the same thing. You can make it when built right so that you can have perma 5 stacks of confusion of course not accounting for LoS and dodging. then you get the ones that mix a little bit of shattering into that with 6 stacks of confusion with CoF and such.

I have seen many a condition class that will just run up spamming everything they have. Knowing full well they have skills that should be on longer cool downs or shouldn’t have so many conditions attached to them but they have no need for thoughts like that when conditions come so easy.

Interesting that you left Engineer off the list, guess that is because you also think they are pretty much spam, spam, spam?

So what do you suggest, OP? Nerf conditions so that they’re no longer meta? So then people won’t want to roll either physical OR condition damage? And quit? Or so a new set of builds will become meta and then people will start QQing about those until they’re nerfed too?

This rage about conditions is really annoying. Players will ALWAYS ADAPT to the most advantageous playstyles they can find. you will ALWAYS be finding something to QQ about no matter what the meta.

I didn’t have engineers on therebecause like elementalist they are higher APM classes, you can throw thief in there too with them both. I just don’t see how those other classes are spammy when they have long cooldowns on important skills even if they are conditions.

Take condition elementalist who throws on perplexity, doom, and torment sigils, puts on frost aura, sets up a nice magnetic leap through a fire field, you can’t touch him if he has shocking up because you can get interrupted for a possible 8 stacks, he procs torment and doom, goes to fire burns you, earth for bleeds and water for more chill.

I don’t see how the elementalist condition builds is any different from the other condition builds. If your not trying to overload and cover in a condi build you wont kill anyone. I fought a signet ele the other day in a duel in sanctum he was perplexity doom and torment sigils running all signets, I was on my d/d ele and I could barely touch him because that would let him proc everything. It was like trying to fight a bomb engi.

I didn’t get upset at the guys build it was interesting and different if I wanted to kill him I could have gotten on my necro or engi. Possibly if I fought him more then 2 times I could have gotten the pattern down on his build. Just because it was strong against a typical d/d ele with only 20 in water doesn’t make me feel like it should be nerfed. Just like I don’t feel a engi should be nerfed because it’s strong against a d/d ele and that has more to do with range + area denial with bombs vs essentially melee.

I know you feel that condition elementalist should be the gold standard for the other condition builds and you feel it is balanced and the others are not but I disagree. I feel like the other condition builds are different and they shouldn’t all be lumped together because they are different classes.

You don’t balance the guardians damage just based off the warriors damage, just like you don’t balance the engineers condition builds based off the necromancers. You don’t balance thief healing based of elementalist healing as an extreme example.

Totally Agree w/OP! Kinda ruined the game! Now they shouldnt Nerf condi’s at all they should add a resist skill and make new armor/rune sets with it on!

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

oZii.2864:

Elementalist – Surprised to see a condition Elementalist but they exist
Guardian – LULZ

I have been Condi ele for months, think i was the first to even make post about it with builds. As for Guardian, i saw an INSANE condi guardian last week. He just melted people with Burning Ticks of over 1k, Poison, Torment and others.

Condi Guard i think will just get more and more popular. It will just take time for some of these insane builds i have personally seen gets out.

The problem is currently not the damage conditions but the NUMBER of conditions that all the spammy classes (Thief, Warrior, Necro, Engineer, Mesmer, Ranger) have access to conditions on low cool downs or spammable via auto attacks. Immobilize is insanely strong as well on Warrior and Ranger has very decent immobilize as well.

Some classes need conditions removed, others need durations reduced and cool downs increased. Tweaks need to be made that is for sure.

This is the reason the post was made! Its brainless condi builds that require no skill at all! I always hated Sig of spite and now all of a sudden 2-3 classes have a ability thats the same power! Kinda pointless the way this meta is going!

flyro.6083:

Totally Agree w/OP! Kinda ruined the game! Now they shouldnt Nerf condi’s at all they should add a resist skill and make new armor/rune sets with it on!

It exists it’s called rune of melandru.

flyro.6083:

This is the reason the post was made! Its brainless condi builds that require no skill at all! I always hated Sig of spite and now all of a sudden 2-3 classes have a ability thats the same power! Kinda pointless the way this meta is going!

brainless condition builds? How can you even claim that when power builds have acces to lots of X% damage boosters. Aren’t traits like those the epitome of mindlessness?

Sig of spite? If skills like berserker stance which completely denies the enemy to place a single condition on you are allowed, then why is it not allowed for a skill to make it harder to cleanse?

Tim.6450:

flyro.6083:

Totally Agree w/OP! Kinda ruined the game! Now they shouldnt Nerf condi’s at all they should add a resist skill and make new armor/rune sets with it on!

It exists it’s called rune of melandru / Sunless / Hoelbrak / Resistance.

Fixed that for you.

The issue is the complete segregation of direct damage and condition based weapons/builds. The condi builds can add so much extra as an effect, while direct damage is just direct damage. Imagine if conditions were just 10 different types of bleed and this problem wouldn’t occur.

Direct damage weapons/builds need more in terms of non damaging conditions as well and/or more boon application (more blinds, weakness etc)

Also a condition “weakness” is needed (i.e. condition that lowers cond damage) and a boon that reduces incoming cond damage like protection.

Direct damage builds have damage modifiers they just aren’t flashy or shown effect. Nobody cares if the direct damage build is wearing soldiers gear or zealots and usually people can’t tell what he is wearing.

Swim.6830:

The issue is the complete segregation of direct damage and condition based weapons/builds. The condi builds can add so much extra as an effect, while direct damage is just direct damage. Imagine if conditions were just 10 different types of bleed and this problem wouldn’t occur.

Direct damage weapons/builds need more in terms of non damaging conditions as well and/or more boon application (more blinds, weakness etc)

Really because since I know a lot of power weapons have secondary effects aside their damage:
warrior greatsword: damage+mobility+minor debuff
warrior hammer: damage+cc
warrior mace offhand: debuff+cc
ranger sword: damage+mobility+evades
…
The reason why condition weapons do that sometimes on the same ability is because they have a slot reserved for a bit more power based move. example:
necromancer scepter: feast of corruption
necromancer staff: necrotic grasp
warrior sword: final thrust
mesmer staff: phantasmal warloc
…

An example. I just fought a condition Mesmer. At one point i had 8 stacks of confusion, 3 stacks of Torment, Poison, Wekaness, 7 stacks of Bleeding, Vul and Cripple. This is what i am talking about. The attacks i was hit with: Blurred Frenzy, iDuelist, Confusing Images, and a few auto attacks (according to “battle log”)

This is an example of cheap Condition builds. They require SO little actual skill. You win not because you are good but because you can easily spam conditions.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

An example. I just fought a condition Mesmer. At one point i had 8 stacks of confusion, 3 stacks of Torment, Poison, Wekaness, 7 stacks of Bleeding, Vul and Cripple. This is what i am talking about. The attacks i was hit with: Blurred Frenzy, iDuelist, Confusing Images, and a few auto attacks (according to “battle log”)

This is an example of cheap Condition builds. They require SO little actual skill. You win not because you are good but because you can easily spam conditions.

Well, you attacked into the Mesmer’s block skill to get the Torment, you took the full channel of Confusing Images (plus a probable Cry of Frustration shatter with the clone), then a weapon swap with Sigil of Doom to Sword nailed you with Blurred Frenzy (probably doubling as a defensive play on the Mesmer’s part), and a Sharper Images I. Deulist was pounding away at you. Weakness on Mesmers can only come from Chaos Storm (and he wasn’t using a staff) or Debilitating Dissipation, which means you killed his clones.

You took the full brunt of multiple channeled attacks and mis-played against your opponent’s active defense, and were attacking his clones, and your excuse for losing is that conditions are broken and easy to play?

Melandru / Sunless / Hoelbrak / Resistance

/thread

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

An example. I just fought a condition Mesmer. At one point i had 8 stacks of confusion, 3 stacks of Torment, Poison, Wekaness, 7 stacks of Bleeding, Vul and Cripple. This is what i am talking about. The attacks i was hit with: Blurred Frenzy, iDuelist, Confusing Images, and a few auto attacks (according to “battle log”)

This is an example of cheap Condition builds. They require SO little actual skill. You win not because you are good but because you can easily spam conditions.

Wat makes it cheap? How does it require little skill? Would you have had all of those conditions on you had you dodges, blocked, or interrupted any of the skills that applied those conditions?

Are you suggesting he button mashed and burnt all of his condition applying skills? If so, did you cleanse them and pound on him as you now had 8ish-20ish seconds before he could do any more significant damage? Did you lose the fight?

I feel you need to answer the legitimate question I am asking to add context and legitimize your complaint. Otherwise your just blurting out random. broad complaints. Not to mention everything Drarnor Kunoram mentioned about how you causes some of it to yourself with your poor actions in play.

anyone with half a brain knows that condis are an issue in WvW roaming.

even before the patch they were OP, now they are ruling that part with heavy condi/bunker builds, just one small example : +175% bleed duration, just shout loud OP, still i refuse to run a cheasy condi builds.

but also this patch made it easier to deal a bit with them.

i have in the bag a set of armor with Melandru runes and weapons with sigils of Generosity/Purity, i get out of combat, retrait, wear armor/weapons, slot cleanse skills and get back to that heavy condi dude.

but what about the average player ?, with “if you cant beat them, join them” mentality.

also, aren’t we killing diversity in WvW roaming ? with suggestion like run(Melandru / Sunless / Hoelbrak / Resistance) or don’t even bother.

Juba.8406:

anyone with half a brain knows that condis are an issue in WvW roaming.

even before the patch they were OP, now they are ruling that part with heavy condi/bunker builds, just one small example : +175% bleed duration, just shout loud OP, still i refuse to run a cheasy condi builds.

but also this patch made it easier to deal a bit with them.

i have in the bag a set of armor with Melandru runes and weapons with sigils of Generosity/Purity, i get out of combat, retrait, wear armor/weapons, slot cleanse skills and get back to that heavy condi dude.

but what about the average player ?, with “if you cant beat them, join them” mentality.

also, aren’t we killing diversity in WvW roaming ? with suggestion like run(Melandru / Sunless / Hoelbrak / Resistance) or don’t even bother.

WvW roaming is run the best thing you can run it always has been. There are those “special snowflakes” that run something a little bit different so they can tell people they are different but you shouldn’t be surprised by condition builds or direct damage builds in roaming they haven’t changed much.

You don’t see the S/D thief and assume he is conditions
If you see the D/D thief you assume direct damage and lolz if he is conditions.

You see the necro the alarm should say conditions “hovers over food” ok he is power.

You can usually tell 90% of the time what the main form of damage is just by hovering over their food and if you don’t have time to do that you got jumped and still you should be able to tell after the first attack hits you this goes for conditions and direct damage.

You don’t have to run melandru/hoelbrak/resistance you can kill them before they kill you as condition builds hate burst damage that keeps pressure on them and doesn’t give them time to setup.

If it is group play you should be sending your warrior to kill the necro not your PU power mesmer.

I think we could use a GW1 approach to conditions. In that game you could only lose so much hp/sec from things such as conditions and hexes. It made sense because they were intended to slowly wear you down, unlike here where it’s possible to “spike” with tons of conditions.

If there was some sort of hard cap on how much dmg/sec you could take from condis it might make it impractical to have more than one player speced into it on your team. It would still be good but you just wouldn’t want a team with 3 condi users because you would reach the cap so fast. That kind of change wouldn’t be easy but the idea that you can deal the same kind of damage as a power build in the same time period with less investment gear-wise is ridiculous.

The nerf to power was totally unneeded and I would like to see at least part of the nerf reverted.

oZii.2864:

Juba.8406:

anyone with half a brain knows that condis are an issue in WvW roaming.

even before the patch they were OP, now they are ruling that part with heavy condi/bunker builds, just one small example : +175% bleed duration, just shout loud OP, still i refuse to run a cheasy condi builds.

but also this patch made it easier to deal a bit with them.

i have in the bag a set of armor with Melandru runes and weapons with sigils of Generosity/Purity, i get out of combat, retrait, wear armor/weapons, slot cleanse skills and get back to that heavy condi dude.

but what about the average player ?, with “if you cant beat them, join them” mentality.

also, aren’t we killing diversity in WvW roaming ? with suggestion like run(Melandru / Sunless / Hoelbrak / Resistance) or don’t even bother.

WvW roaming is run the best thing you can run it always has been. There are those “special snowflakes” that run something a little bit different so they can tell people they are different but you shouldn’t be surprised by condition builds or direct damage builds in roaming they haven’t changed much.

You don’t see the S/D thief and assume he is conditions
If you see the D/D thief you assume direct damage and lolz if he is conditions.

You see the necro the alarm should say conditions “hovers over food” ok he is power.

You can usually tell 90% of the time what the main form of damage is just by hovering over their food and if you don’t have time to do that you got jumped and still you should be able to tell after the first attack hits you this goes for conditions and direct damage.

You don’t have to run melandru/hoelbrak/resistance you can kill them before they kill you as condition builds hate burst damage that keeps pressure on them and doesn’t give them time to setup.

If it is group play you should be sending your warrior to kill the necro not your PU power mesmer.

my normal roaming build got decent condi cleanse, but lately “decent” is not enough.

thats why i have another set of armor and weapons to deal with heavy condi spam and slot/trait every condi cleanse i can get.

Burst ? everyone hate bursts not just condi/bunker , did i just say bunker ? yeah bunker, high toughness/vitality or even healing power.

you dont need just Burst, you need over the top Burst and hope he got half a brain, but then you got no toughness/Vitality/healing like him.

you know the best counter to condi/bunker ? … an even more heavy condi build.

coglin.1867:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

An example. I just fought a condition Mesmer. At one point i had 8 stacks of confusion, 3 stacks of Torment, Poison, Wekaness, 7 stacks of Bleeding, Vul and Cripple. This is what i am talking about. The attacks i was hit with: Blurred Frenzy, iDuelist, Confusing Images, and a few auto attacks (according to “battle log”)

This is an example of cheap Condition builds. They require SO little actual skill. You win not because you are good but because you can easily spam conditions.

Wat makes it cheap? How does it require little skill? Would you have had all of those conditions on you had you dodges, blocked, or interrupted any of the skills that applied those conditions?

Are you suggesting he button mashed and burnt all of his condition applying skills? If so, did you cleanse them and pound on him as you now had 8ish-20ish seconds before he could do any more significant damage? Did you lose the fight?

I feel you need to answer the legitimate question I am asking to add context and legitimize your complaint. Otherwise your just blurting out random. broad complaints. Not to mention everything Drarnor Kunoram mentioned about how you causes some of it to yourself with your poor actions in play.

If you really think it would ever be possible for a Mesmer to have 20 seconds where he couldn’t do significant damage, I’d be more than happy to set the record straight, love.

Conditions are over the top atm

that sux cause active play > passive play

Tim.6450:

Swim.6830:

The issue is the complete segregation of direct damage and condition based weapons/builds. The condi builds can add so much extra as an effect, while direct damage is just direct damage. Imagine if conditions were just 10 different types of bleed and this problem wouldn’t occur.

Direct damage weapons/builds need more in terms of non damaging conditions as well and/or more boon application (more blinds, weakness etc)

Really because since I know a lot of power weapons have secondary effects aside their damage:
warrior greatsword: damage+mobility+minor debuff
warrior hammer: damage+cc
warrior mace offhand: debuff+cc
ranger sword: damage+mobility+evades
…
The reason why condition weapons do that sometimes on the same ability is because they have a slot reserved for a bit more power based move. example:
necromancer scepter: feast of corruption
necromancer staff: necrotic grasp
warrior sword: final thrust
mesmer staff: phantasmal warloc
…

Yes they have SMALL effects. They do not stack as easily, thus affect the combat as much as condition based stuff that just loads 10 things all at once.

Either all the secondary conditions need to be toned down a lot for the condi builds or the reverse, as I stated.

Not to mention that some kind of condition dmg resistance would be good.

Juba.8406:

anyone with half a brain knows that condis are an issue in WvW roaming.

even before the patch they were OP, now they are ruling that part with heavy condi/bunker builds, just one small example : +175% bleed duration, just shout loud OP, still i refuse to run a cheasy condi builds.

but also this patch made it easier to deal a bit with them.

i have in the bag a set of armor with Melandru runes and weapons with sigils of Generosity/Purity, i get out of combat, retrait, wear armor/weapons, slot cleanse skills and get back to that heavy condi dude.

but what about the average player ?, with “if you cant beat them, join them” mentality.

also, aren’t we killing diversity in WvW roaming ? with suggestion like run(Melandru / Sunless / Hoelbrak / Resistance) or don’t even bother.

I was having this same discussion with a few people in game. All this latest patch has done is further narrow diversity. Your average player will see a condi build on the forums, “Osicat’s napalm cat” in the mesmer forums is an obvious choice, spec to it and be able to roll over people with veritable ease, because that particular build is quite passive in it’s playstyle, extremely effective and easy to play.

With the addition of 2 x Sigils on Two handers, you can slot a Sigil of Torment + Sigil of Doom for example, as long as you have reasonable precision for rabid gear you’ll get 2 additional s on top of what you are already spamming.

What passed as acceptable condition cleansing before the patch is now subpar. If you are in anyway serious about your PvP you have to build into every single build you use, extensive condition removal. Now if your a power built player, along with the ferocity change you are in an even WORSE position because your severely hampering your offensive capability and killing the burst you need to counter a tank that outdamages you with passive play.

aNet seem to be completely oblivious to this and it’s becoming a state of go conditions or go home.

coglin.1867:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

An example. I just fought a condition Mesmer. At one point i had 8 stacks of confusion, 3 stacks of Torment, Poison, Wekaness, 7 stacks of Bleeding, Vul and Cripple. This is what i am talking about. The attacks i was hit with: Blurred Frenzy, iDuelist, Confusing Images, and a few auto attacks (according to “battle log”)

This is an example of cheap Condition builds. They require SO little actual skill. You win not because you are good but because you can easily spam conditions.

Wat makes it cheap? How does it require little skill? Would you have had all of those conditions on you had you dodges, blocked, or interrupted any of the skills that applied those conditions?

Are you suggesting he button mashed and burnt all of his condition applying skills? If so, did you cleanse them and pound on him as you now had 8ish-20ish seconds before he could do any more significant damage? Did you lose the fight?

I feel you need to answer the legitimate question I am asking to add context and legitimize your complaint. Otherwise your just blurting out random. broad complaints. Not to mention everything Drarnor Kunoram mentioned about how you causes some of it to yourself with your poor actions in play.

Of course it’s cheap. Mesmer staff auto applies the following: Burning, Bleeding, Vuln, with Balthazar runes you can maintain between 70-80% uptime on burning. Add to that, Chilled, Poison, Weakness from Chaos Field (I know you can evade that), Blindness, Confusion + Cripple from Chaos Armor. With a Sigil of Torment + Doom on the staff, that’s a LOT of condition pressure that doesn’t take skill to apply. If you take the mantra heal you also get AoE burning on heal.

Then you have on clone death: Bleeding, Vuln + Weakness + Cripple (Aoe), now your suggesting that you can block/evade/negate these quite easily, but even if your the best player in the world, your abilities WILL hit clones and you will take additional conditions from those. Then you have sceptre with clone spam on auto, torment from block(very easy to apply even against good players), confusion from Sceptre 3 which can be telegraphed from stealth) and burning from Torch.

Add to that that the mesmer is essentially a TANK that has excellent in game mobility, defence AND stealth.

All of that AND it’s easy to play. THAT makes it cheesy.

Forgot to say, since conditions have become so strong currently that they kill in about the same amount of time as direct dmg builds, they really shouldn’t be able to stack as much toughness and be as tanky as they are.

Loco.4561:

coglin.1867:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

An example. I just fought a condition Mesmer. At one point i had 8 stacks of confusion, 3 stacks of Torment, Poison, Wekaness, 7 stacks of Bleeding, Vul and Cripple. This is what i am talking about. The attacks i was hit with: Blurred Frenzy, iDuelist, Confusing Images, and a few auto attacks (according to “battle log”)

This is an example of cheap Condition builds. They require SO little actual skill. You win not because you are good but because you can easily spam conditions.

Wat makes it cheap? How does it require little skill? Would you have had all of those conditions on you had you dodges, blocked, or interrupted any of the skills that applied those conditions?

Are you suggesting he button mashed and burnt all of his condition applying skills? If so, did you cleanse them and pound on him as you now had 8ish-20ish seconds before he could do any more significant damage? Did you lose the fight?

I feel you need to answer the legitimate question I am asking to add context and legitimize your complaint. Otherwise your just blurting out random. broad complaints. Not to mention everything Drarnor Kunoram mentioned about how you causes some of it to yourself with your poor actions in play.

Of course it’s cheap. Mesmer staff auto applies the following: Burning, Bleeding, Vuln, with Balthazar runes you can maintain between 70-80% uptime on burning. Add to that, Chilled, Poison, Weakness from Chaos Field (I know you can evade that), Blindness, Confusion + Cripple from Chaos Armor. With a Sigil of Torment + Doom on the staff, that’s a LOT of condition pressure that doesn’t take skill to apply. If you take the mantra heal you also get AoE burning on heal.

Then you have on clone death: Bleeding, Vuln + Weakness + Cripple (Aoe), now your suggesting that you can block/evade/negate these quite easily, but even if your the best player in the world, your abilities WILL hit clones and you will take additional conditions from those. Then you have sceptre with clone spam on auto, torment from block(very easy to apply even against good players), confusion from Sceptre 3 which can be telegraphed from stealth) and burning from Torch.

Add to that that the mesmer is essentially a TANK that has excellent in game mobility, defence AND stealth.

All of that AND it’s easy to play. THAT makes it cheesy.

Except ArmegeddonAsh was describing a fight against a Scepter/X Sword/X Mesmer with pistol as one of the two “X”. He specifically mentioned skills on both scepter and main hand sword in the same fight, so there was no staff at all to worry about.

Besides, Mesmer staff application is soooooooo slow, you can pretty easily just kill the mesmer if he doesn’t swap out. Phase Retreat is the only mobility on staff and Chaos Armor has a rather short duration for its cooldown.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Well, you attacked into the Mesmer’s block skill to get the Torment, you took the full channel of Confusing Images (plus a probable Cry of Frustration shatter with the clone), then a weapon swap with Sigil of Doom to Sword nailed you with Blurred Frenzy (probably doubling as a defensive play on the Mesmer’s part), and a Sharper Images I. Deulist was pounding away at you. Weakness on Mesmers can only come from Chaos Storm (and he wasn’t using a staff) or Debilitating Dissipation, which means you killed his clones.

You took the full brunt of multiple channeled attacks and mis-played against your opponent’s active defense, and were attacking his clones, and your excuse for losing is that conditions are broken and easy to play?

I actually didnt get the proc from the Scepter block, otherwise it would have been 5 stacks of Torment and not 3. He didn’t shatter once. So i know its not that. I am guessing running Doom and Torment Sigils, running Perplexity runes as as well.

Blurred Frenzy barely touched me as i was in Earth, think it did like 1k damage total. So that wasn’t a threat. The duelist did 2 rounds of damage but again barely any actual damage. It was the insane number of conditions. Again, didnt take the Torment damage from the block so that means nothing.

Conditions are easy to play. EVERY condition build should be like Ele. For us when going conditions we give up A LOT. We do next to no direct damage. Have to make quite a bit of sacrifice and we have a MUCH lower number of conditions. That is how it should be. We have TWO damaging conditions. Look at what other classes have damage wise when it comes to conditions.

Yeah i lost. Though spamming conditions does tend to do that. When even Ether Renewal can’t save you it is rather pointless. Seeing as all but 1 of my attacks is an AoE (running D/D) it makes it kind of hard NOT to hit clones….

But i guess even after using ER and within 5 second having all the conditions back on me is perfectly fine. That is just one example. You can say “oh you were at fault, you did this, you did that” but the fact that my defence against conditions was totally useless seeing as how i was pumped full of conditions again. THIS is the problem, it is FAR too easy to apply conditions with SO many being rather TOO easy to apply – Debilitating Dissipation, Crippling Dissipation, Confusing Combatants all being prime examples and that is just from a few Mesmer traits.

coglin.1867:

Wat makes it cheap? How does it require little skill? Would you have had all of those conditions on you had you dodges, blocked, or interrupted any of the skills that applied those conditions?

Are you suggesting he button mashed and burnt all of his condition applying skills? If so, did you cleanse them and pound on him as you now had 8ish-20ish seconds before he could do any more significant damage? Did you lose the fight?

I feel you need to answer the legitimate question I am asking to add context and legitimize your complaint. Otherwise your just blurting out random. broad complaints. Not to mention everything Drarnor Kunoram mentioned about how you causes some of it to yourself with your poor actions in play.

My “Blocks” i have ONE and it is on a 75second cool down, yeah that aint going to really do much of anything. Though gotta laugh, i mean other classes get blocks that block all damage for its full duration – we get 3 blocks on a 75second cool down….

The problem being that only ONE of them skills (Scepter Confusion) has a cast time and do remember i am an ele. You know how long the cool downs are on our interrupts? They are INSANE. So that would be wasted. The biggest issue are the on clone death traits with no cool down or anything, when ALL but one of my attacks is an AoE it pretty much guarantees that clones will die. It is rather strong, too strong (imo) for a Adapt trait that has no cool down.

You do know just how little cast time they can get on the Scepter right? Hell my Mesmer can make the Confusion from Confusing Images last LONGER than its cool down when built right…

Juba.8406:

even before the patch they were OP, now they are ruling that part with heavy condi/bunker builds, just one small example : +175% bleed duration, just shout loud OP, still i refuse to run a cheasy condi builds.

What’s the point of having +175% bleeding duration when the cap is 100%?

Juba.8406:

also, aren’t we killing diversity in WvW roaming ? with suggestion like run(Melandru / Sunless / Hoelbrak / Resistance) or don’t even bother.

Well you also have the standard condition clears.

Swim.6830:

Yes they have SMALL effects. They do not stack as easily, thus affect the combat as much as condition based stuff that just loads 10 things all at once.

Either all the secondary conditions need to be toned down a lot for the condi builds or the reverse, as I stated.

Small?? Warrior greatsword itself is hated for it’s mobility alone. Warrior Axe offhand gives 50% uptime of fury. The thief black powder/heartseaker givest a massive amount of stealth. Thief sword 2 seconds of weakness/cripple on auto attack, teleport and immobilize. Mesmer sword 2.5s evade frame, teleport and immobilize. Necromancer axe Unholy feast AOE boon strip, AOE cripple and 20%~100% uptime retaliation depending on the amount of enemies. So I would not call it small.

And 10 things at once for conditions? That’s just a very big overstatement.

Swim.6830:

Not to mention that some kind of condition dmg resistance would be good.

Again melandru/resitance/hoelbrack/sunless.

Arenanet should CONFIRM theyr working on countering terrible-condi spammers.

There is no point equiping hardcounter runes JUST to beat 1 type of players.
Since youll get wrecked by ANY other decent build and you have literally no freedom to do what you want at all. (aka BREAKING the game)

Conditions need a hardcore nerf, make them harder to use or atleast make them have huge cooldowns if they do this absurd damage.

I dont get why arenanet really doesnt care about conditions. It BREAKS the game at this point. It did before patch and after patch.

Any decent pvpers who know howto play wanna make a full out 5 character condi pro team? Just to show it can literally beat anything with no skill. and beat any pro team just by spamming conditions.

Im getting sick and tired of people saying you can ‘hardcounter’ condis but they forget to say that when you do you literally have to fully commit to anti condi and ONLY fight condis otherwise your severly behind traitswise/damagewise etc. This is not how an ‘esport’ should be played. to hardcounter a build JUST to defeat it.

Tbh, Conditions are pretty imba. if you don’t have consistent cleansing then eventually you’re going to lose if they’re decent. Conditions are a absolute bane against melee based professions/builds, the, words often spoken in defense of condition specs are “Bring condition removal/cleanse” even though people probably do, it doesn’t really help because of how easy it is to reapply in the bulks. If you want to take example of ridiculous condition reapplication, take Grenade condi engi, and for tpvp, Grenade and bomb kit. Bomb kit because you’re forced to fight on a small point, and grenades because you’ll just get bombed on constantly, or even pistol/pistol builds.

I realize, with how dominant condition builds are in a PvP setting , Warrior’s Zerker Stance is balanced against this sort of thing. The thing about condition damage is that it’s sticky damage, meaning you fire and forget, and keep consistently stacking the damage until it’s removed or it expires. if it isn’t removed it ticks for it’s full damage and it can’t be mitigated since it bypasses armor. The only resistance against conditions as a stat would be -condition duration, but that’s a scarce stat that’s only available through runes, and very few traits. If application was toned down a bit then i don’t think it would be complained about as much. The only condition class I will say is okay now is necro. With burning removed from the passive critical hits and moved to DS 1(if they really want burning), Terrormancer is still strong though it isn’t like before when I’m getting hit consistently for over 1k-2k damage a second (Fear=1k damage per sec, and burning=800ish damage, with whatever stacks of bleeding, poison.

FYI- Sunless Rune was nerfed a bit on the duration, used to be 20% -condi duration.

Tim.6450:

Juba.8406:

even before the patch they were OP, now they are ruling that part with heavy condi/bunker builds, just one small example : +175% bleed duration, just shout loud OP, still i refuse to run a cheasy condi builds.

What’s the point of having +175% bleeding duration when the cap is 100%?

Juba.8406:

also, aren’t we killing diversity in WvW roaming ? with suggestion like run(Melandru / Sunless / Hoelbrak / Resistance) or don’t even bother.

Well you also have the standard condition clears.

Swim.6830:

Yes they have SMALL effects. They do not stack as easily, thus affect the combat as much as condition based stuff that just loads 10 things all at once.

Either all the secondary conditions need to be toned down a lot for the condi builds or the reverse, as I stated.

Small?? Warrior greatsword itself is hated for it’s mobility alone. Warrior Axe offhand gives 50% uptime of fury. The thief black powder/heartseaker givest a massive amount of stealth. Thief sword 2 seconds of weakness/cripple on auto attack, teleport and immobilize. Mesmer sword 2.5s evade frame, teleport and immobilize. Necromancer axe Unholy feast AOE boon strip, AOE cripple and 20%~100% uptime retaliation depending on the amount of enemies. So I would not call it small.

And 10 things at once for conditions? That’s just a very big overstatement.

Swim.6830:

Not to mention that some kind of condition dmg resistance would be good.

Again melandru/resitance/hoelbrack/sunless.

Yeah because mobility and fury is equivalent to the opponent getting hit by – weakness, chill, immobilize, cripple, vulnerability and blindness.

And yes, I said at once, but what is actually happening is the usage of abilities with very little animation/cast-time.

The abilities you pointed out are some of the strongest direct ones and they are far too few in total.

By resistance I do not mean time duration. I mean actual resistance – % damage negated like toughness. Direct damage has this equivalent.

Since it’s difficult to grasp, here is how condi builds feel right now – imagine a build with 60% crit chance, 2900 armor, 190% crit damage, 2200 strength and 23k health. This build can also CC you like crazy and has a class survivability of either – secondary health bar with extra abilities; access to stealth and multiple invulnerabilities and evasions.

And this class is also ranged and has AI do some extra stuff sometimes.

Shaogin.2679:

Look, a completely new and orginal thread. How about next time you take two seconds to search the forums and maybe see if a similar thread already exists eh? Then post in that thread instead of spawning multiple threads on the same topic that has already been argued to death.

i like to think multiple posts of the same thing will get the devs the hint that we want a change

Some just need to take a break from Dueling you can’t beat everything. Condition builds are not all the same and you can’t just blanket them with “condi-spam”

Who cares about Napalm Cat because you can ignore Napalm Cat you can literally sheath your weapon and walk away at normal run speed no swiftness and you won’t die. You wouldn’t do that same thing to anyone running a direct damage power build except maybe a guardian running healway.

What is the list of Conditions builds running around in WvW? Not variations with a trait change but essentially the same build.

Necro terrormancer
Thief P/D
Engi P/S or P/P
Mesmer PU
Warrior S/S
Ranger traps
Maybe Maybe a condition Ele but they are rare.

Thats it those are the most common condition builds out roaming in WvW and dueling in Sanctum. Those are running rampant? Those are ruining the game? The list of direct damage builds probably double that number if not triple it but according to this thread everyone is running around in condi builds. Really put together a good list of your classes viable WvW builds that you sincerely feel are different from another build and I would bet you have more direct damage builds then conditions.

Maybe it’s just that you can’t beat them, aren’t built to, and don’t like the fact that you can’t.

I would also be willing to bet depending on your build that the problems you have beating one of those builds doesn’t apply to all of them just like direct damage. My problems with a mace/shield gs glass warrior on my ele aren’t the same problems I have with a direct damage mesmer. Same thing applies here.

You fight the condition ranger your not having the same problems you do when you fight the condition warrior or the p/d thief heck the ranger has a pet out the whole time.

Not enough specifics it’s just alot of condition builds “are spammy”. The fight isn’t even the same against all the condition builds just like it isn’t for direct damage. It makes no sense to throw out the whole class it’s mechanics label it condi-spam then present your argument.

It isn’t done with direct damage the people crying about thieves don’t forget that the thief has stealth, the people crying about mesmer don’t forget they have invulnerability, the people crying about warriors don’t forget about endure pains and zerker stance, but condi spam DUDE it’s condi spam.

>>Not enough specifics it’s just alot of condition builds “are spammy”. The fight isn’t even the same against all the condition builds just like it isn’t for direct damage. It makes no sense to throw out the whole class it’s mechanics label it condi-spam then present your argument.

Added to that all builds work very differently and are more or less effective dependent on the number of persons in ones party.

1 V 1 encounters are very rare. A build used for 1 v 1 changes when it becomes 3 v 3 or 10 v 10 or 5 vs 10 or 50 vs 50. One can not take single 1 v 1 challenges and infer that “conditions are out of control”.

Just as an example. An immobilize cast on a single opponent where they 4 others to take advantage of that immobilize can be far more effective then 25 stacks of bleed.

You are implying condispammers should be stronger in a 1v1 then?

Or in a 5v5?

The fact is and it will remain that pvp has 5 people in it with the ussuall 3 cappoints. meaning there is always someone 1v1ing if you go for all cap.

Yes you will have 1v1’s but do you call for help from a teammate? You should and this will happen no matter what you face because you and the other team built to counter specifics of each others builds.

Are you trying to win or be a 1v1 star? You need teammates otherwise a team of 5 rangers would be just as viable as a team of 5 guardians nobody would need to make hard choices in build decisions because they can handle everything 1v1. This goes for direct and condi.

If you had 1 build on 1 class out of the 8 that can handle every type of fight 1v1 how do you think that would work against of 5 of those same builds? People wanting to win would all roll and run that comp. That has no depth instead you have 5 people who build to compliment their team, take utilities incase their teammates go down(which they will) help their team heal up(which they will need) and cleanse conditions on teammates if their personal condi removal isn’t up(which they will also need). The team is a machine not a group of awesome 1v1 stars doing their own thing. 1v1’s happen but they aren’t the most important thing in balance.

Power builds still work fine. If Youre running glass cannon and have low hp, that’s your own fault. One build can’t beat them all, balance doesn’t work like that, as much as you would like it to.

It’s not like everyone doesn’t have access to at least one cleanse. And if your running a power build you should have enough of a window if you time your cleanse right to turn the tables. Pay attention to your foes cooldowns,

And if your referring to wvw, don’t waste your time. You can’t simply balance a Zerg blob, and attempting to do so is folly.

oZii.2864:

Some just need to take a break from Dueling you can’t beat everything. Condition builds are not all the same and you can’t just blanket them with “condi-spam”

Who cares about Napalm Cat because you can ignore Napalm Cat you can literally sheath your weapon and walk away at normal run speed no swiftness and you won’t die. You wouldn’t do that same thing to anyone running a direct damage power build except maybe a guardian running healway.

What is the list of Conditions builds running around in WvW? Not variations with a trait change but essentially the same build.

Necro terrormancer
Thief P/D
Engi P/S or P/P
Mesmer PU
Warrior S/S
Ranger traps
Maybe Maybe a condition Ele but they are rare.

Thats it those are the most common condition builds out roaming in WvW and dueling in Sanctum. Those are running rampant? Those are ruining the game? The list of direct damage builds probably double that number if not triple it but according to this thread everyone is running around in condi builds. Really put together a good list of your classes viable WvW builds that you sincerely feel are different from another build and I would bet you have more direct damage builds then conditions.

Maybe it’s just that you can’t beat them, aren’t built to, and don’t like the fact that you can’t.

I would also be willing to bet depending on your build that the problems you have beating one of those builds doesn’t apply to all of them just like direct damage. My problems with a mace/shield gs glass warrior on my ele aren’t the same problems I have with a direct damage mesmer. Same thing applies here.

You fight the condition ranger your not having the same problems you do when you fight the condition warrior or the p/d thief heck the ranger has a pet out the whole time.

Not enough specifics it’s just alot of condition builds “are spammy”. The fight isn’t even the same against all the condition builds just like it isn’t for direct damage. It makes no sense to throw out the whole class it’s mechanics label it condi-spam then present your argument.

It isn’t done with direct damage the people crying about thieves don’t forget that the thief has stealth, the people crying about mesmer don’t forget they have invulnerability, the people crying about warriors don’t forget about endure pains and zerker stance, but condi spam DUDE it’s condi spam.

you’re beyond saving. you’re so convinced that you’re right about conditions being balanced and yet you’re never able to prove otherwise.

im seriously waiting for the post where you prove through any bit of logic that conditions are not overpowered.