Guild Wars 2

The effects are well known. How do you currently counter someone with pure Knight’s gear? You use armor-ignoring damage, aka conditions. If conditions were affected by armor, then what would you use? Power? The exact thing it is strongest against? Or conditions, which it is now just as strong against? Knight’s gear would have no vulnerabilities anymore, so yes, it very much would become the “I win” stat set.

The only condition build that regularly removes boons is necros. Every other class has their boon stripping tied to Power skills (exception of Null Field, which works equally well in any build), or don’t have a condition build anyway (Guardians). So no, Protection affecting conditions would usher in the boon-spam meta, followed by necros being called OP because they have good capability of removing boons. And Rangers would disappear entirely, as they have no methods to punish or remove boons.

You’re ignoring the fact that making Precision and Ferocity a single stat would make it a exponential stat. Every single point you put into that stat would be worth more than every prior point combined. That makes it inherently impossible to balance.

Condi spam is ridiculous at this point. It needs a big adjustment.

dancingmonkey.4902:

bobomb.5209:

Heres the problem. A power build must make sure that they kill their opponent. Condition users can apply conditions and leave, if the opponent is low on health, because their conditions will kill the enemy.

Really? You mean They changed the game recently? Engineer turrets no longer attack is the engineer leaves unless you have a condition build? Meteor shower shower no longer works? My power necros wells will not trigger if you run through them unless I am in the immediate vicinity? Rangers shouts have changes to a smaller pet leash? Traps? Thief traps np longer work with power when a thief leaves? Engineer mines no longer function with my soldiers gear?

Holy cow. When did this patch go through. I am looking now, and I cannot find the patch notes. Please do the world a favor and link the patch nopes that support your claim here.

bobomb.5209:

What it boils down to is that power builds need Power, Ferocity, and Precision to do damage. That means all three slots for stats are filled.

Was this in the patch notes too? Or are you simply unable to differentiate “doing damage” from “doing optimal damage”???

I mean we have all seen the videos posted recently and in the past that show builds in soldiers gear from each profession out damaging dire geared builds, so do you have any evidence to the contrary, or are you guys simply going with the “cause I said so” theory? Which to me, seems like a brilliant way to go with all of the indisputable evidence you have been spamming on the thread er, I mean posting, recently .

I mean with guys on your side of the fence swearing dodges do not avoid skills that apply conditions, blocks do not avoid skills that apply conditions, and power no longer does damage, you guys surely cannot lose.

I suggest you be a little more respectful and try to not criticize fellow forum posters, else you will get banned from the forums. To address your post.
1.) Engineer turrets are laughable, and are actually better for condition application (aside from rifle turret, which has no condition application on it)
2.) Meteor shower is unpredictable. If you cast it and leave you won’t even hit someone who can simply walk out of it unless you attempt to keep them within the vicinity of the spells area.
3.) As previously stated the opponent will simply walk out of the well unless you actively attempt to keep them inside.
4.) Not sure what you are attempting to say regarding the Ranger, as I only have minimal experience playing a Ranger.
5.) What are you trying to say about traps exactly?
6.) Traps that are available to a Thief include one that allows you to shadow step to the location. So that would be applicable for a thief that runs away but it does no damage. Another trap that summons another thief. But the thief follows you so you cannot run in order for him to do damage. And the last trap keeps an opponent in place, which is good if you have to run away but does no damage.
7.)Engineer mines work with any set of gear. I do not know how you came to the conclusion that one set of gear makes the skill null.
8.) Whoever “they” is I assume you mean the ArenaNet developers. If so, you would be surprised to find they change the game quite often. The most recent change was on April 15, 2014.
9.) Optimal damage is the only way to compare with a stat that does optimal damage all in itself. To do optimal damage for a power build you need three stats. For condition damage you need two. For good power damage you need 2. For good condition damage you need one.
10.) I do not know why you are comparing soldiers. Because each one out tanks the other. Vitality + condition cleansing out tanks condition. And toughness + any trait that mitigates raw damage (be specific about a class and I can give an example) out tanks the other.
11.) I have not been spamming the thread. I think you will find that I have posted a minuscule amount of times.
12.) I have not said that blocking and dodging do not block condition application ( aside from krait rune elite bonus and marks on the necromancers staff when traited)
13.) Power does do damage. Otherwise it would not be there.
14.) As previously stated I hope you can keep your comments a little more respectful. Otherwise this thread would turn into a bunch of kids fighting over whose willy is the largest.

style.6173:

Condi spam is ridiculous at this point. It needs a big adjustment.

Then kitten play it. Play it into the ground. Play it so big and so loud they cannot ignore it.

Until their metrics show a problem: Your. Words. Mean. Nothing.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The effects are well known. How do you currently counter someone with pure Knight’s gear? You use armor-ignoring damage, aka conditions. If conditions were affected by armor, then what would you use? Power? The exact thing it is strongest against? Or conditions, which it is now just as strong against? Knight’s gear would have no vulnerabilities anymore, so yes, it very much would become the “I win” stat set.

The only condition build that regularly removes boons is necros. Every other class has their boon stripping tied to Power skills (exception of Null Field, which works equally well in any build), or don’t have a condition build anyway (Guardians). So no, Protection affecting conditions would usher in the boon-spam meta, followed by necros being called OP because they have good capability of removing boons. And Rangers would disappear entirely, as they have no methods to punish or remove boons.

You’re ignoring the fact that making Precision and Ferocity a single stat would make it a exponential stat. Every single point you put into that stat would be worth more than every prior point combined. That makes it inherently impossible to balance.

If it’s a curve that can be calculated, it can be balanced.

Even if knights gear becomes imbalanced, it can be adjusted, as has gear and stats previously in this game.

My point is that condition masters have little to sacrifice currently in survivability for similar damage and on par utility as direct damage builds.

bobomb.5209:

Make an only power “power” build and see how well you fare against condition builds. No precision, no ferocity.

Pretty well actually.

When you play power without prec or ferocity your likely a bunker. Then its on you to make sure you cover your bases.
My d/d ele doesnt have any particular problem with condition builds at all. Neither does my guardian.

Especially not bunker condition builds. They have no burst at all, i can easily and constantly outheal their predictable damage.

Swim.6830:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The effects are well known. How do you currently counter someone with pure Knight’s gear? You use armor-ignoring damage, aka conditions. If conditions were affected by armor, then what would you use? Power? The exact thing it is strongest against? Or conditions, which it is now just as strong against? Knight’s gear would have no vulnerabilities anymore, so yes, it very much would become the “I win” stat set.

The only condition build that regularly removes boons is necros. Every other class has their boon stripping tied to Power skills (exception of Null Field, which works equally well in any build), or don’t have a condition build anyway (Guardians). So no, Protection affecting conditions would usher in the boon-spam meta, followed by necros being called OP because they have good capability of removing boons. And Rangers would disappear entirely, as they have no methods to punish or remove boons.

You’re ignoring the fact that making Precision and Ferocity a single stat would make it a exponential stat. Every single point you put into that stat would be worth more than every prior point combined. That makes it inherently impossible to balance.

If it’s a curve that can be calculated, it can be balanced.

Even if knights gear becomes imbalanced, it can be adjusted, as has gear and stats previously in this game.

My point is that condition masters have little to sacrifice currently in survivability for similar damage and on par utility as direct damage builds.

Changing Knight’s gear would require rebalancing all gear in the game. All items have a specific stat point budget. If, as you suggest, they changed Knight’s gear, it would have to be a nerf, so then that gear set has fewer points than any other gear set. This creates another imbalance, as other gear would have to be dropped down to match.

And no, exponential stats are inherently impossible to balance. You either balance them around the low end, in which case anyone who stacks it becomes obscene, the high end, in which case anyone who doesn’t max it might as well not have it, or the middle, in which case you have the useless “low” amounts and the still obscene “high” amounts. The only way to balance exponential stats is to make every stat exponential, which would then destroy any semblance of skill being meaningful in the game as the gap between gear tiers becomes enormous. Exponential scaling would make Ascended gear absolutely necessary for WvW and PvE or make using Ascended gear a total facefoll in PvE.

As for gearing defensively, it’s a requirement, not a privilege of condition builds. They do trade off damage for durability., and in fact must do so. For example, using Necro with no traits, sigils, or runes in PvP, a Soldier’s amulet necro hits for 450.18 with Axe auto (not counting vulnerability), 1846.52 on Axe 2, and 514.09+boon strip+cripple+retaliation on Axe 3. Life Blast hits for 643.8 at 601-1200 range and 900.37 at 0-600 range. A Carrion amulet necro scepter hits for 190.76+354 bleed, 190.76+354 bleed, 272.78+705 poison on the auto, 381.51+1240 bleed plus cripple on the #2, and 545.56 on the #3 (increased by 8% per condition on the target). Life Blast hits for 545.56/763.98. These seem pretty comparable in damage, but the Carrion amulet necro has given up quite a bit of survivability to get that. Yes, Carrion amulet deals more on the auto-attacks, but the higher DPS and utility (cripple, vuln stacking, boon strip, and retaliation vs cripple and poison) actually goes to the Axe.

These numbers are against 2726 armor, which is the armor rating of a Warrior wearing a Soldier’s amulet. Most of the time, the target’s armor will be lower.

Terrahero.9358:

bobomb.5209:

Make an only power “power” build and see how well you fare against condition builds. No precision, no ferocity.

Pretty well actually.

When you play power without prec or ferocity your likely a bunker. Then its on you to make sure you cover your bases.
My d/d ele doesnt have any particular problem with condition builds at all. Neither does my guardian.

Especially not bunker condition builds. They have no burst at all, i can easily and constantly outheal their predictable damage.

So you can kill them?

ok lets put 2 basic necro builds against each other.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNArYWic0mAaokUAENJLlmBA-TpQTQAg9HylBAA

1 aa chain will do = 2301 damage over 4 seconds (not bad single target damage)
with aa alone you may be able to get 5 stacks with just aa.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNAW4Ijc00YbLN20mAXog+NDgWIqLg6zINeWA-TpQOABAs/ArlBAA

FYI none of these will include and % damage modifiers

Staff aa - 624 every 3/4s so mayby 5 aa in 4 seconds but for the sake of argument I will say 4 aa in 4 seconds = 2496 not including crits and only hitting 1 target

1 dagger aa chain will do = 2386 lets assume you can do 2 aa chains in 4s = 4772

lifeblast will do 939/1314 so lets assume we get 2 in kitten it would be 1878/2628 not including crits

ill let you guys break this down further

Swim.6830:

My point is that condition masters have little to sacrifice currently in survivability for similar damage and on par utility as direct damage builds.

You mean they don’t sacrifice opportunity or burst? Because well, their skills now need time to do their damage, giving the enemy opportunities to counteract them (removal doesn’t work against instant damage because you have no chance to react to it at all) and to recycle their CDs?

Uh huh.

The downside of DoTs – in general – isn’t really up for debate. DoTs vs DDs is anything but a new concept in RPGs. DDs are weaker or affected by some kind of defence (often physical dodging, here it is armour), in return DoTs need time to deal their damage.

This only becomes a proper balance issue in situations where you are forcing an unbalanced fight. As in, most 1v1.

I think the biggest problem is just how quickly they kill people. Being able to burst people down with conditions in 5-10 seconds (or less!) should not happen with a condition build….Or any build for that matter.

The fact that classes can spam 5+ conditions on you in seconds. It just doesn’t seem right. Even classes that aren’t really billed as Condition classes can do it. In My opinion ALL condition builds should be a bit different.

Necromancer – Low condition damage compared to others but the sheer number of conditions is the threat.

Elementalist – lack in conditions (already have that!) High damage with them.

Engineer – Reasonable conditions, not amazing damage but countered with all the stuns and interrupts to stop the enemy.

I think Warrior needs Torment to be removed or the cool down to at least be doubled. Engineer remove Burning – i know they have it on Flamethrower but i don’t ever seen condition builds with it. They normally spam Grenades and Bombs. Reduce the stacks and durations of all the Confusion they have, it is a bit TOO much currently.

Immobilize needs to be fixed. The durations need to be fixed, need to have it not stack.

Carighan.6758:

Swim.6830:

My point is that condition masters have little to sacrifice currently in survivability for similar damage and on par utility as direct damage builds.

You mean they don’t sacrifice opportunity or burst? Because well, their skills now need time to do their damage, giving the enemy opportunities to counteract them (removal doesn’t work against instant damage because you have no chance to react to it at all) and to recycle their CDs?

Uh huh.

The downside of DoTs – in general – isn’t really up for debate. DoTs vs DDs is anything but a new concept in RPGs. DDs are weaker or affected by some kind of defence (often physical dodging, here it is armour), in return DoTs need time to deal their damage.

This only becomes a proper balance issue in situations where you are forcing an unbalanced fight. As in, most 1v1.

I’d be fine if conditions needed twice the time of DDs, but it really isn’t the case currently.

Swim.6830:

I’d be fine if conditions needed twice the time of DDs, but it really isn’t the case currently.

That doesn’t make any sense. Exactly how long does it take a direct damage based player to kill another?

dancingmonkey.4902:

Swim.6830:

I’d be fine if conditions needed twice the time of DDs, but it really isn’t the case currently.

That doesn’t make any sense. Exactly how long does it take a direct damage based player to kill another?

depends, some can down someone in 2s while others can take 15s to down someone.
so a condi class should be able to down someone in 4-30s?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I think the biggest problem is just how quickly they kill people. Being able to burst people down with conditions in 5-10 seconds (or less!) should not happen with a condition build….Or any build for that matter.

You do understand that conditions do not burst. By definition, they are damage over time. It is as if you present your issue, then counter it in the same sentence.
/scratches head

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

The fact that classes can spam 5+ conditions on you in seconds. It just doesn’t seem right. Even classes that aren’t really billed as Condition classes can do it. In My opinion ALL condition builds should be a bit different.

Got a link to the official list of what conditions professions are? Or are you just making this split of professions up? There are no condition professions, only condition builds. Are you suggesting all condition builds are the same?

By the way. I am curios. Do you have a list of the skills that your claiming can apply 5 conditions in 1.0 seconds ??? Is there any reason you do not dodge this super ultra mega skill you refer too?

Immobilize needs to be fixed. The durations need to be fixed, need to have it not stack.

that doesn’t make any sense, considering the forums where spammed for months with threads demanding they change immobilize should stack. Personally, I much rather it stack. So if I get set upon by a larger force, I can clear them all with one skill and make my get away. The community demanded it be changed to its current state for exactly that reason. They hated that once they burned their cleanse immobilize skill and instantly had another one applied, and now their cleanse was on CD. At one time we had 7 threads on this topic on the front page of the same sub forums, all demanding they change it to its current state.

Brando.1374:

depends, some can down someone in 2s while others can take 15s to down someone.
so a condi class should be able to down someone in 4-30s?

Er, 20s or so.

Anyhow, just look at an attack.
If attack A deals 4000 damage instantly, and attack B deals 500 damage but applies a single stack of bleeding which takes 7s to tick for 3500 extra damage, it’s easy to see how this balances (one example of this is the Necro scepter with it’s bleed AA).

Now, maybe conditions in GW2 “tick too fast”. But as someone above said this is not something condition-specific. The whole combat system, offence, conditions, attacks, death, in this game is lightning-fast.
You die in split-seconds. And with conditions, you can die in two split-seconds by purging them once. That’s it.

So really, any “fix” to conditions has to “simply” (yeah…) slow down combat. On all ends. The slower combat is, the more the extra time conditions need to kill someone become a liability, as more and more players gain more and more chances to react to it.

There is only one condition in this game that truly bothers me… Confusion >.<
the description for this condition should read. “Go friken kill your self, nub”.

Also, even though direct damage can potentially bust out more sustain, I’d rather fight two classes who are a dd build opposed to one class spamming uber condition damage. regardless I’m personally quite glad direct damage got a slight nerf, now it should be time to balance conditions (less condition spam).

I think the best course of action would be to give all players an immunity timer after cleansing or eating the full duration of a particular condition. Dark Age of Camelot is a good example when it comes to immunity timers.

Immunity timers should respectfully prevent:
-Chain stunning
-Immobilize spam
-Daze Spam
-Knock down/Launch/Knock back spam
-Fear spam

Carighan.6758:

Brando.1374:

depends, some can down someone in 2s while others can take 15s to down someone.
so a condi class should be able to down someone in 4-30s?

Er, 20s or so.

Anyhow, just look at an attack.
If attack A deals 4000 damage instantly, and attack B deals 500 damage but applies a single stack of bleeding which takes 7s to tick for 3500 extra damage, it’s easy to see how this balances (one example of this is the Necro scepter with it’s bleed AA).

Now, maybe conditions in GW2 “tick too fast”. But as someone above said this is not something condition-specific. The whole combat system, offence, conditions, attacks, death, in this game is lightning-fast.
You die in split-seconds. And with conditions, you can die in two split-seconds by purging them once. That’s it.

So really, any “fix” to conditions has to “simply” (yeah…) slow down combat. On all ends. The slower combat is, the more the extra time conditions need to kill someone become a liability, as more and more players gain more and more chances to react to it.

Honestly it’s not even the killing speed that bothers me as much as the quick re-application. 3 condi-bombs after another is a bit much. IMO not all classes can do it, but some classes are main culprits of quick condition re-application… and both can do it in AOE if I am not mistaken.

Swim.6830:

Carighan.6758:

Brando.1374:

depends, some can down someone in 2s while others can take 15s to down someone.
so a condi class should be able to down someone in 4-30s?

Er, 20s or so.

Anyhow, just look at an attack.
If attack A deals 4000 damage instantly, and attack B deals 500 damage but applies a single stack of bleeding which takes 7s to tick for 3500 extra damage, it’s easy to see how this balances (one example of this is the Necro scepter with it’s bleed AA).

Now, maybe conditions in GW2 “tick too fast”. But as someone above said this is not something condition-specific. The whole combat system, offence, conditions, attacks, death, in this game is lightning-fast.
You die in split-seconds. And with conditions, you can die in two split-seconds by purging them once. That’s it.

So really, any “fix” to conditions has to “simply” (yeah…) slow down combat. On all ends. The slower combat is, the more the extra time conditions need to kill someone become a liability, as more and more players gain more and more chances to react to it.

Honestly it’s not even the killing speed that bothers me as much as the quick re-application. 3 condi-bombs after another is a bit much. IMO not all classes can do it, but some classes are main culprits of quick condition re-application… and both can do it in AOE if I am not mistaken.

Condi bombs can’t happen that quickly. What you’re getting is multiple rounds of low stacks (but multiple conditions) and thinking “OMG I’m Deying!” each time. You’re not. Condibombs would be like under old Dhuumfire where it’s Enfeebling Blood→Grasping Dead→weapon swap with Geomancy on staff→Death Shroud with Weakening Shroud→Tainted Shackles→Doom→Dark Path. Dhuumfire would have procced at some point during that, and the combo can be repeated 25 seconds later, but it requires landing many skills in succession and there are many ways to avoid or mitigate it (though the bleeds are unlikely to be cleansed).

Oh, and that whole chain I mentioned? Execution time of ~4-5 seconds. Plenty of time to dodge some or most of it. It also leaves the necro with no Death Shroud for the next 10 seconds and having blown most of his hard hitting skills. About the only thing he may have left is Corrupt Boon or Signet of Spite (40 second cooldown, who’s effectiveness is based on their opponent and a 60 second cooldown that is well telegraphed and not dangerous on its own anyway).

Swim.6830:

Honestly it’s not even the killing speed that bothers me as much as the quick re-application. 3 condi-bombs after another is a bit much. IMO not all classes can do it, but some classes are main culprits of quick condition re-application… and both can do it in AOE if I am not mistaken.

Honestly, I do not even see how this path of thinking can make sense to anyone, maybe it is just me.

Of coarse conditions have to be capable of fast reapplication. If they could not be reapplied after a cleanse, they would very literally do zero damage. Cleansing is intended to negate damage, not alleviate it all together. To make it worse, you appear to make it clear to me, that your actually have no experience with the professions you complain about.

I think the best way to check if it’s balanced is to understand the underlying mechanics of condition damage, with numbers to back it up. Show each and every class mechanics of how to apply conditions, and compare it to the direct damage mechanics, style, and application of each class.

THEN we can safely say that conditions are a problem.

Hypothesis related: People aren’t prepared for counters to conditions because of the direct-damage nature of PvE, which leads them to not be prepared transitioning to PvP/WvW, wherein damage is mostly heavy on after-effects.

Carighan.6758:

Brando.1374:

depends, some can down someone in 2s while others can take 15s to down someone.
so a condi class should be able to down someone in 4-30s?

Er, 20s or so.

Anyhow, just look at an attack.
If attack A deals 4000 damage instantly, and attack B deals 500 damage but applies a single stack of bleeding which takes 7s to tick for 3500 extra damage, it’s easy to see how this balances (one example of this is the Necro scepter with it’s bleed AA).

Now, maybe conditions in GW2 “tick too fast”. But as someone above said this is not something condition-specific. The whole combat system, offence, conditions, attacks, death, in this game is lightning-fast.
You die in split-seconds. And with conditions, you can die in two split-seconds by purging them once. That’s it.

So really, any “fix” to conditions has to “simply” (yeah…) slow down combat. On all ends. The slower combat is, the more the extra time conditions need to kill someone become a liability, as more and more players gain more and more chances to react to it.

I just want to point out that there is no 1 stack of bleeding that will do 3500 damage in 7s.
burning can but that is no longer applied through crits/aa from a necro at least.

as for a condi user killing someone in 2split seconds, you will have to wait at least 3-5 skills before the full condi bomb will come close to killing you.

bobomb.5209:

Terrahero.9358:

bobomb.5209:

Make an only power “power” build and see how well you fare against condition builds. No precision, no ferocity.

Pretty well actually.

When you play power without prec or ferocity your likely a bunker. Then its on you to make sure you cover your bases.
My d/d ele doesnt have any particular problem with condition builds at all. Neither does my guardian.

Especially not bunker condition builds. They have no burst at all, i can easily and constantly outheal their predictable damage.

So you can kill them?

Condition bunkers? Ofcourse not, dont be silly… Its a bunker. Bunkers are builds to endure heavy damage, if a bunker dies to the pressure from another bunker it wasnt really a bunker.

We just stand their slapping eachother untill one of us gets bored and leaves.

quick question? do u want BUILD wars?

the actual game is simply BUILD wars regarding conditions. either u have enough cleanses and lack defense for other types of dmg or u havent.. there is not middle way, where 1-2 cleansing-skills/traits are enough to somehow outplay a condition build like necro or engi.

on the other side i can outplay a stunlock warrior with 0-1 stunbreaks as example.

in sum conditions are fine except the application from necros and engis is broken!

Grimreaper.5370:

There is only one condition in this game that truly bothers me… Confusion >.<
the description for this condition should read. “Go friken kill your self, nub”.

A direct descendant from Empathy – and Spiteful Spirit – in Guildwars 1 – those were strong hexes, against AI. Confusion stacks though, and in a fast paced game like this it is admittedly more dangerous then it’s predecessors. Still, the concept is good to retain.

Immunity timers ….

Can we has them against direct damage as well then?

hooma.9642:

quick question? do u want BUILD wars?

the actual game is simply BUILD wars regarding conditions. either u have enough cleanses and lack defense for other types of dmg or u havent.. there is not middle way, where 1-2 cleansing-skills/traits are enough to somehow outplay a condition build like necro or engi.

on the other side i can outplay a stunlock warrior with 0-1 stunbreaks as example.

in sum conditions are fine except the application from necros and engis is broken!

How are they broken?

Simply making a random claim with absolutely no proof to offer, over and over and over again, is counter productive. As I see it, it is simply a demonstration of your claim being made on blind conjecture. Because if it were the case, you would present some sort of evidence.

Terrahero.9358:

bobomb.5209:

Terrahero.9358:

bobomb.5209:

Make an only power “power” build and see how well you fare against condition builds. No precision, no ferocity.

Pretty well actually.

When you play power without prec or ferocity your likely a bunker. Then its on you to make sure you cover your bases.
My d/d ele doesnt have any particular problem with condition builds at all. Neither does my guardian.

Especially not bunker condition builds. They have no burst at all, i can easily and constantly outheal their predictable damage.

So you can kill them?

Condition bunkers? Ofcourse not, dont be silly… Its a bunker. Bunkers are builds to endure heavy damage, if a bunker dies to the pressure from another bunker it wasnt really a bunker.

We just stand their slapping eachother untill one of us gets bored and leaves.

In which case the power in your “power” build might aswell be condition. Because condition is more effective as a bunker than a power bunker. Condition bunkers can actually kill people since their damage revolves around one stat, where as power builds revolve around three.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Swim.6830:

Honestly it’s not even the killing speed that bothers me as much as the quick re-application. 3 condi-bombs after another is a bit much. IMO not all classes can do it, but some classes are main culprits of quick condition re-application… and both can do it in AOE if I am not mistaken.

Honestly, I do not even see how this path of thinking can make sense to anyone, maybe it is just me.

Of coarse conditions have to be capable of fast reapplication. If they could not be reapplied after a cleanse, they would very literally do zero damage. Cleansing is intended to negate damage, not alleviate it all together. To make it worse, you appear to make it clear to me, that your actually have no experience with the professions you complain about.

And it seems to me that you have no idea how balancing works.

I don’t see how you can defend a tank that can kill – “oh but it’s with conditions so it’s ok”

I am done posting here when people obviously defend something so fiercely, when all that is needed is a slight small balance change which bring the scale evenly between direct damage and condition damage.

bobomb.5209:

Terrahero.9358:

bobomb.5209:

Terrahero.9358:

bobomb.5209:

Make an only power “power” build and see how well you fare against condition builds. No precision, no ferocity.

Pretty well actually.

When you play power without prec or ferocity your likely a bunker. Then its on you to make sure you cover your bases.
My d/d ele doesnt have any particular problem with condition builds at all. Neither does my guardian.

Especially not bunker condition builds. They have no burst at all, i can easily and constantly outheal their predictable damage.

So you can kill them?

Condition bunkers? Ofcourse not, dont be silly… Its a bunker. Bunkers are builds to endure heavy damage, if a bunker dies to the pressure from another bunker it wasnt really a bunker.

We just stand their slapping eachother untill one of us gets bored and leaves.

In which case the power in your “power” build might aswell be condition. Because condition is more effective as a bunker than a power bunker. Condition bunkers can actually kill people since their damage revolves around one stat, where as power builds revolve around three.

Conditions are more effective? Care to provide any evidence to support this? As of now, your only making claims based on the meta. Yet all the video comparisons posted previously, and skill damage comparisons show that as a whole, power bunkers and condition bunkers have congruent damage out puts.

The problem is, players will build to counter direct damage or to stack damage skills themselves, but players almost unanimously do not build specifically to counter conditions. Instead of building to counter conditions, they claim the are OP or lobby for nerfs to them.

coglin.1867:

bobomb.5209:

Terrahero.9358:

bobomb.5209:

Terrahero.9358:

bobomb.5209:

Make an only power “power” build and see how well you fare against condition builds. No precision, no ferocity.

Pretty well actually.

When you play power without prec or ferocity your likely a bunker. Then its on you to make sure you cover your bases.
My d/d ele doesnt have any particular problem with condition builds at all. Neither does my guardian.

Especially not bunker condition builds. They have no burst at all, i can easily and constantly outheal their predictable damage.

So you can kill them?

Condition bunkers? Ofcourse not, dont be silly… Its a bunker. Bunkers are builds to endure heavy damage, if a bunker dies to the pressure from another bunker it wasnt really a bunker.

We just stand their slapping eachother untill one of us gets bored and leaves.

In which case the power in your “power” build might aswell be condition. Because condition is more effective as a bunker than a power bunker. Condition bunkers can actually kill people since their damage revolves around one stat, where as power builds revolve around three.

Conditions are more effective? Care to provide any evidence to support this? As of now, your only making claims based on the meta. Yet all the video comparisons posted previously, and skill damage comparisons show that as a whole, power bunkers and condition bunkers have congruent damage out puts.

The problem is, players will build to counter direct damage or to stack damage skills themselves, but players almost unanimously do not build specifically to counter conditions. Instead of building to counter conditions, they claim the are OP or lobby for nerfs to them.

im getting tired from such nonsense argumentation.. how about stop demanding prove from every post u see against conditions and deliver evidence that proves your point.. so far i only see u demanding.. esp since you for yourself claim stuff without any evidence and your claimed proven facts with vids are also false, cause u refuse to compare the reality!

on a side note i find it interessing that my post about conditions are build wars based need to get proven but as yourself mentioned “building to counter”…. if you cant understand the problem in that part u havent understand anything about balance and not wanting to support build wars in gw2.

Swim.6830:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Swim.6830:

Honestly it’s not even the killing speed that bothers me as much as the quick re-application. 3 condi-bombs after another is a bit much. IMO not all classes can do it, but some classes are main culprits of quick condition re-application… and both can do it in AOE if I am not mistaken.

Honestly, I do not even see how this path of thinking can make sense to anyone, maybe it is just me.

Of coarse conditions have to be capable of fast reapplication. If they could not be reapplied after a cleanse, they would very literally do zero damage. Cleansing is intended to negate damage, not alleviate it all together. To make it worse, you appear to make it clear to me, that your actually have no experience with the professions you complain about.

And it seems to me that you have no idea how balancing works.

I don’t see how you can defend a tank that can kill – “oh but it’s with conditions so it’s ok”

I am done posting here when people obviously defend something so fiercely, when all that is needed is a slight small balance change which bring the scale evenly between direct damage and condition damage.

A bunker can kill. They cannot kill another bunker unless their opponent seriously screws up. They can kill those glass cannons that try to burst them and then stick around after their attempt fails. They can also kill those bruiser-types that make too many mistakes.

This is true for both condition bunkers and power bunkers. If condibunkers are OP, then bunkers period are OP.

hooma.9642:

im getting tired from such nonsense argumentation.. how about stop demanding prove from every post u see against conditions and deliver evidence that proves your point.. so far i only see u demanding.. esp since you for yourself claim stuff without any evidence and your claimed proven facts with vids are also false, cause u refuse to compare the reality!

I agree, it is absolute nonsense to request that you offer any evidence to a claim that has already been dis-proven, what are we thinking…………Oh wait, silly me, that is a perfectly reasonable request.

Evidence for our argument? You mean like youtube video damage comparison posted on the last 7 thread on this topic? If the same 10 posters would stop spamming the forums repeatedly with this same thread you may have seen them. Perhaps had you looked at all, I don’t know. As well, previous threads have comparative damage out put break down.

Swim.6830:

And it seems to me that you have no idea how balancing works.

I don’t see how you can defend a tank that can kill – “oh but it’s with conditions so it’s ok”

I do not know how balance works? It is okay with conditions?

You mean like when I joined a team of other posters and we took soldier gear builds and dire gear builds of different professions and tweaked builds to see how fast we could kill various mobs or players in a personal arena and after looking at all of our numbers, we realized they were very equivalent?

I am going to suggest you actually try that and post the numbers you find, otherwise, as far as I am concerned, you making nothing but conjecture based on a perception alone.

Swim.6830:

I am done posting here when people obviously defend something so fiercely, when all that is needed is a slight small balance change which bring the scale evenly between direct damage and condition damage.

Bye, have a nice day.

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3859738 Old dumbfire Condi dps test
Rotation:
Staff 2-3-5, Dodge+wep swap, enter ds, ds5-3-2, scepter 2-5-aa so about 12 actions with random dumbfire proc

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3848362 power valk amulet
rotation:
SoS for % damage modifier, WoS+WoC, flash ds for fury, AA chain like a boss. 5 actions.

condi spec now will take at the very least another second to kill since we need to use lb 1 to proc burning.

Now for those who complain about not being able to counter conditions I give you this: http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/4031535 I was just smashed with no hope of a happy ending.

now here is another warrior that sounds just like most of the people who complain here: http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3439319 see the difference?

Brando.1374:

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3848362 power valk amulet
rotation:
SoS for % damage modifier, WoS+WoC, flash ds for fury, AA chain like a boss. 5 actions.

Yeah, I run D/D on my necro (freaks people out in WvW because it is so foreign to them.) and in PvP often. D/D soldiers out the condition builds by 15ish%.

The other funny thing here is when posters mention grenade engineers. Literally only 2 out of 5 grenades do damage. One of them took a 40% condition damage nerf in the last update. Grenades absolutely scale better with power. Bomb kit scales great with power. it also only has 2 out of 5 bombs that do condition damage.

Conditions are too plentiful, too easy to spam and do too much damage.

phaeris.7604:

Conditions are too plentiful, too easy to spam and do too much damage.

did you even look at my damage comparison clips?

dancingmonkey.4902:

hooma.9642:

im getting tired from such nonsense argumentation.. how about stop demanding prove from every post u see against conditions and deliver evidence that proves your point.. so far i only see u demanding.. esp since you for yourself claim stuff without any evidence and your claimed proven facts with vids are also false, cause u refuse to compare the reality!

I agree, it is absolute nonsense to request that you offer any evidence to a claim that has already been dis-proven, what are we thinking…………Oh wait, silly me, that is a perfectly reasonable request.

Evidence for our argument? You mean like youtube video damage comparison posted on the last 7 thread on this topic? If the same 10 posters would stop spamming the forums repeatedly with this same thread you may have seen them. Perhaps had you looked at all, I don’t know. As well, previous threads have comparative damage out put break down. …

see thats your total mistake that i mentioned. i talked about reality that every spvp/tpvp match tells you.. not some stupid dps compares against a target golem or your calculations based on numbers… there is to many u cant cover.. u seem not to understand that.

u can compare your dmg as long as u want. it doesnt matter. u and all your companions seems not to understand this. as long condis can BURST its broken. simple is that. the rate of application on necro and engi is broken, cause thats the only both classes that can condi-BURST… thats not a problem of condis or power and has nothing to do with dmg that different dmg-types or build do. its just a matter of possible negating and counterplay.

and to repeat there is absolut no counter*PLAY* involved against condi-builds. either you BUILD to counter or not. there is no middle way. either u have enough condi-cleanse to complete negate his build or not. its the way like diamond skin work just in a different scale. u seems not to understand it.

it doesnt matter if u cant apply any condi or i just have always more cleanse than u can apply and can outheal the remaining dmg. the fact that my BUILD simple counters yours, without any possible way u could turn that outcome, with more a less passive, is a counter BUILD that should not be in GW2. in the most cases its simply the other way around. hard to understand or what?

edit:

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3859738 Old dumbfire Condi dps test
Rotation:
Staff 2-3-5, Dodge+wep swap, enter ds, ds5-3-2, scepter 2-5-aa so about 12 actions with random dumbfire proc

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3848362 power valk amulet
rotation:
SoS for % damage modifier, WoS+WoC, flash ds for fury, AA chain like a boss. 5 actions.

condi spec now will take at the very least another second to kill since we need to use lb 1 to proc burning.

Now for those who complain about not being able to counter conditions I give you this: http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/4031535 I was just smashed with no hope of a happy ending.

now here is another warrior that sounds just like most of the people who complain here: http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3439319 see the difference?

first vid.. useless. like the second. so what should your opponent dodge? your marks directly placed under him? your 0-animation and 0-activation time fear? i dont even want to mention the build

second vid.. lol.. yeah your opponents stay in your well in tpvp… good joke. maybe on your level of play. but on my level is actual counterplay. oh and btw u forgot something very important.. the SETUP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and i dont even want to mention that you needed your utilities to BURST or that you needed to go melee.

u complain about keystrokes? how about playing fresh air ele? since when keystroke messure something? besides that, funny that you not count your aa for the second vid.. good way to COMPARE

3 and 4 vid just show COUNTERBUILDS and the advantage/disadvantages of the right FOOD

3 and 4 show exactly what i mentioned.. the first had simple to many condi removes and the second not enough. 3 had not won with 1 and 4 had still loose with 1. there was no room on both cases for COUNTERPLAY

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Brando.1374:

hooma.9642:

dancingmonkey.4902:

hooma.9642:

..

…

…

did you happen to look at those 2 warrior duels I put up?
1 know how to counter conditions and is a wvw roamer
the other well is like many who post complaints.

And both seemed to be running the same build. So much for “no counterplay, only counterbuild”

sarcasm? they have complete different builds. the only common i could see was hammer as 1 weapon, heal sig and signet of rage.

phaeris.7604:

Conditions are too plentiful, too easy to spam and do too much damage.

Direct damage is too plentiful, too easy to spam and do too much damage.

hooma.9642:

dancingmonkey.4902:

hooma.9642:

im getting tired from such nonsense argumentation.. how about stop demanding prove from every post u see against conditions and deliver evidence that proves your point.. so far i only see u demanding.. esp since you for yourself claim stuff without any evidence and your claimed proven facts with vids are also false, cause u refuse to compare the reality!

I agree, it is absolute nonsense to request that you offer any evidence to a claim that has already been dis-proven, what are we thinking…………Oh wait, silly me, that is a perfectly reasonable request.

Evidence for our argument? You mean like youtube video damage comparison posted on the last 7 thread on this topic? If the same 10 posters would stop spamming the forums repeatedly with this same thread you may have seen them. Perhaps had you looked at all, I don’t know. As well, previous threads have comparative damage out put break down. …

see thats your total mistake that i mentioned. i talked about reality that every spvp/tpvp match tells you.. not some stupid dps compares against a target golem or your calculations based on numbers… there is to many u cant cover.. u seem not to understand that.

u can compare your dmg as long as u want. it doesnt matter. u and all your companions seems not to understand this. as long condis can BURST its broken. simple is that. the rate of application on necro and engi is broken, cause thats the only both classes that can condi-BURST… thats not a problem of condis or power and has nothing to do with dmg that different dmg-types or build do. its just a matter of possible negating and counterplay.

and to repeat there is absolut no counter*PLAY* involved against condi-builds. either you BUILD to counter or not. there is no middle way. either u have enough condi-cleanse to complete negate his build or not. its the way like diamond skin work just in a different scale. u seems not to understand it.

it doesnt matter if u cant apply any condi or i just have always more cleanse than u can apply and can outheal the remaining dmg. the fact that my BUILD simple counters yours, without any possible way u could turn that outcome, with more a less passive, is a counter BUILD that should not be in GW2. in the most cases its simply the other way around. hard to understand or what?

did you happen to look at those 2 warrior duels I put up?
1 know how to counter conditions and is a wvw roamer
the other well is like many who post complaints.

Brando.1374:

hooma.9642:

dancingmonkey.4902:

hooma.9642:

im getting tired from such nonsense argumentation.. how about stop demanding prove from every post u see against conditions and deliver evidence that proves your point.. so far i only see u demanding.. esp since you for yourself claim stuff without any evidence and your claimed proven facts with vids are also false, cause u refuse to compare the reality!

I agree, it is absolute nonsense to request that you offer any evidence to a claim that has already been dis-proven, what are we thinking…………Oh wait, silly me, that is a perfectly reasonable request.

Evidence for our argument? You mean like youtube video damage comparison posted on the last 7 thread on this topic? If the same 10 posters would stop spamming the forums repeatedly with this same thread you may have seen them. Perhaps had you looked at all, I don’t know. As well, previous threads have comparative damage out put break down. …

see thats your total mistake that i mentioned. i talked about reality that every spvp/tpvp match tells you.. not some stupid dps compares against a target golem or your calculations based on numbers… there is to many u cant cover.. u seem not to understand that.

u can compare your dmg as long as u want. it doesnt matter. u and all your companions seems not to understand this. as long condis can BURST its broken. simple is that. the rate of application on necro and engi is broken, cause thats the only both classes that can condi-BURST… thats not a problem of condis or power and has nothing to do with dmg that different dmg-types or build do. its just a matter of possible negating and counterplay.

and to repeat there is absolut no counter*PLAY* involved against condi-builds. either you BUILD to counter or not. there is no middle way. either u have enough condi-cleanse to complete negate his build or not. its the way like diamond skin work just in a different scale. u seems not to understand it.

it doesnt matter if u cant apply any condi or i just have always more cleanse than u can apply and can outheal the remaining dmg. the fact that my BUILD simple counters yours, without any possible way u could turn that outcome, with more a less passive, is a counter BUILD that should not be in GW2. in the most cases its simply the other way around. hard to understand or what?

did you happen to look at those 2 warrior duels I put up?
1 know how to counter conditions and is a wvw roamer
the other well is like many who post complaints.

And both seemed to be running the same build. So much for “no counterplay, only counterbuild”

hooma.9642:

see thats your total mistake that i mentioned. i talked about reality that every spvp/tpvp match tells you.. not some stupid dps compares against a target golem or your calculations based on numbers… there is to many u cant cover.. u seem not to understand that.

Wait, so now your suggesting that having the same toughness/health level on separate damage types, while putting out the same damage, doesn’t matter?

hooma.9642:

u can compare your dmg as long as u want. it doesnt matter. u and all your companions seems not to understand this. as long condis can BURST its broken. simple is that. the rate of application on necro and engi is broken, cause thats the only both classes that can condi-BURST… thats not a problem of condis or power and has nothing to do with dmg that different dmg-types or build do. its just a matter of possible negating and counterplay.

Conditions by definition cannot burst. This is why they are called damage over time. When they can literally apply direct damage as fast as they can apply condition damage there is no problem. You seem to be mistaken about where the lack of understanding is coming from.

hooma.9642:

and to repeat there is absolut no counter*PLAY* involved against condi-builds. either you BUILD to counter or not. there is no middle way. either u have enough condi-cleanse to complete negate his build or not. its the way like diamond skin work just in a different scale. u seems not to understand it.

Wait, even though someone literally just posted the same necro with the same build fighting two different warriors with the same build, and displayed how one got destroyed without proper counter play, and the other thrived with counter play, your still suggesting there is no counter play. We are literally showing you video proof that opposes your statements. Yet, your counter to those facts are to repeat the same thing you have already posted?

hooma.9642:

it doesnt matter if u cant apply any condi or i just have always more cleanse than u can apply and can outheal the remaining dmg. the fact that my BUILD simple counters yours, without any possible way u could turn that outcome, with more a less passive, is a counter BUILD that should not be in GW2. in the most cases its simply the other way around. hard to understand or what?

You do not have to like it. The fact is, on a fundamental level, builds are relevant. Name us a single MMO in which builds are 100% irrelavent.

hooma.9642:

so what should your opponent dodge? your marks directly placed under him? your 0-animation and 0-activation time fear? i dont even want to mention the build

This exact question is asked of direct damage attacks? This point is completely moot. If you run the necro staff in a full power build, which skills do you dodge? When a persons so bias that they pretend a path of logic only works one way, then they do not want to actually know they facts, they are then, clearly arguing out a bias based on pure conjecture.

hooma.9642:

yeah your opponents stay in your well in tpvp… good joke. maybe on your level of play. but on my level is actual counterplay.

Aren’t you going back on your previous statement? Previously you specifically stated that counter play is irrelevant, and they offered 2 videos disproving that. As well, your level, as you state it, has counter play but you cannot counter conditions? Must be a much lower level then mine. I have no serious issue counter playing necros and engies on my level.

Hooma, if conditions are so powerful for the engineer, why does the #3 player on the leader boards in NA play a power engineer? As a matter of fact, 18 of the top 21 engineers on the leader boards play power builds. Care to explain that?

Also, I realized I wanted to mention something on this.

bobomb.5209:

1.) Engineer turrets are laughable, and are actually better for condition application (aside from rifle turret, which has no condition application on it)

I am just going to assume you made this comment because you know very little about the engineer. Which in itself seems odd that you complain about them specifically in relation to conditions.

I can link you to very literally hundreds of videos. Turrets have been used in both bunker builds and decap/cc builds for a long time. But to make the statement you did so close to the last update, I would be willing to bet, you made your claims without even trying them after the over haul. It is hard to lend much value to posters who make statements, when they seem so unfamiliar with the subject matter.

I didn’t bother reading any other points made in the refereed to post, because once I saw the first one, and how inaccurate it is compared to what the community actually does, I no longer saw a need to read further.

coglin.1867:

hooma.9642:

….

Wait, so now your suggesting that having the same toughness/health level on separate damage types, while putting out the same damage, doesn’t matter?

no it doesnt matter. by your logic english and german are the same cause they use the same letters.

hooma.9642:

….

Conditions by definition cannot burst. This is why they are called damage over time. When they can literally apply direct damage as fast as they can apply condition damage there is no problem. You seem to be mistaken about where the lack of understanding is coming from.

yeah right condition are damage over time, thats why i sayed conditions are fine except the application is broken on engi and necro, cause they can BURST with conditions and no direct damage cant apply it as fast without setups or special circumstances. not like engi and necro from range without any precursor.

hooma.9642:

….

Wait, even though someone literally just posted the same necro with the same build fighting two different warriors with the same build, and displayed how one got destroyed without proper counter play, and the other thrived with counter play, your still suggesting there is no counter play. We are literally showing you video proof that opposes your statements. Yet, your counter to those facts are to repeat the same thing you have already posted?

SAME BUILD? how in gods name do u even come to the conclusion they use the same build?

hooma.9642:

…

You do not have to like it. The fact is, on a fundamental level, builds are relevant. Name us a single MMO in which builds are 100% irrelavent.

Builds are relevant. Yes. But Builds are determining winner or looser of a fight are a different circumstance and Anet stated they dont want Build wars. On the same time the engi and necro forcing ppl into build wars.

hooma.9642:

…

This exact question is asked of direct damage attacks? This point is completely moot. If you run the necro staff in a full power build, which skills do you dodge? When a persons so bias that they pretend a path of logic only works one way, then they do not want to actually know they facts, they are then, clearly arguing out a bias based on pure conjecture.

the only bias here i can see is your argumentation by complete denying what happens in reality and not in your pen and paper comparisions. what u should dodge against a power necro using staff? depends. but unless on a condition build they arent that dangerous if not dodged.

hooma.9642:

…..

kiting, moving out of aoe is counterplay. equipping as much condiremove as possible is counterbuild.. the both vids showed exactly that. no matter how perfect he had played in the 3 he had still loosed simply by the fact that enemy had a counterBUILD + -CONDIDURATION FOOD and in the 4 the enemy had loosed even if he played perfectly and the necro had made a lot of mistakes.. there is no counterplay against conditions in the actual state of game. only counter building.. so hard to understand?

hooma.9642:

no it doesnt matter. by your logic english and german are the same cause they use the same letters.

What? So your saying that when I use a soldiers gear build and it does the same damage out put as my condition damage build, that they are different as the German and English language? How so?

hooma.9642:

yeah right condition are damage over time, thats why i sayed conditions are fine except the application is broken on engi and necro, cause they can BURST with conditions and no direct damage cant apply it as fast without setups or special circumstances. not like engi and necro from range without any precursor.

How can they Do more burst damage then their direct damage counter part??? Posters have already linked videos that completely disprove this.

I am curious, how many hours do you have on the engineer and necromancer??? Because the above statement is inaccurate in my experience.

Give us an example of a build of both and tell us how much damage they can do???

hooma.9642:

SAME BUILD? how in gods name do u even come to the conclusion they use the same build?

By the same way all of the posters making claims about conditions being OP have presented most of your assessments thus far. I just post it. I mean you guys are not going to start using facts now are you? You have avoided it entirely thus far.

hooma.9642:

Builds are relevant. Yes. But Builds are determining winner or looser of a fight are a different circumstance and Anet stated they dont want Build wars. On the same time the engi and necro forcing ppl into build wars.

If conditions are so powerful for the engineer, why does the #3 player on the leader boards in NA play a power engineer? As a matter of fact, 18 of the top 21 engineers on the leader boards play power builds. Care to explain that?

You ignored that completely (probably because it is a easily provable) yet it still answers this question.

hooma.9642:

the only bias here i can see is your argumentation by complete denying what happens in reality and not in your pen and paper comparisions. what u should dodge against a power necro using staff? depends. but unless on a condition build they arent that dangerous if not dodged.

You simply avoided the question here. You claim there are not specific condition skills to avoid, then refuse to suggest what attacks to avoid in a direct damage build. Just because it harms your argument doesn’t meant your offering positive discussion.

hooma.9642:

kiting, moving out of aoe is counterplay.

Agreed. Condi staff ele and bomb/nade engineer are AoEs to move out of. Both do congruent damage in direct damage and condi builds. So tells us why the same skills in two different damage type builds, are easier to avoid in one damage type and not the other?? I look forward to hearing this one in particular.

hooma.9642:

equipping as much condiremove as possible is counterbuild.. the both vids showed exactly that. no matter how perfect he had played in the 3 he had still loosed simply by the fact that enemy had a counterBUILD + -CONDIDURATION FOOD and in the 4 the enemy had loosed even if he played perfectly and the necro had made a lot of mistakes.. there is no counterplay against conditions in the actual state of game. only counter building.. so hard to understand?

Yup, there is a required level of building wisdom. If that were not the case, why do we get different weapons choices at all? Why do we get the choices of different traits? Why do we get to chose to have different utilities?

The only solution to your issue here, is to make each class, perfectly equal in weapons, traits, and builds, for every single player in that profession. This is just plain unreasonable.

Argue it all you like. but it is known by all, that it doesn’t matter what build you use, unless you play it well, you will lose.

I would gladly use one of my power based engineer builds against your condition build of choice. Let me know when you wish to get together and test this. I would happily do all kinds of test with you if you would like to get together some time and try some various professions and builds.

I see we a great deal of claims from Bobomb and Hoopa for example. How many hours do either of you have on your engineers and necromancers ? As I feel experience In the two professions you use as examples is very relavent, perhaps starting there would aid us in helping you becoming more familiar with those two profession in the aspects that are relavent to the discussion.

They must be 1v1 duel server champs. Hoopa dismiss NA competitive scene when the EU TOL Winner wasn’t even a condition team. The tournament wasn’t even condition heavy.

There was a post with a break down by class and mesmer and ele and necromancer where the lowest represented classes, engineer where middle of the pack in representation. Guardian and Warriors where the most popular.

If every team in a tourney brings 1 engineer that doesn’t make it condition wars.

Ok so conditions suck in pve, where you have to have zerker gear or GTFO, but overpowered in pvp and wvw where these same ‘zerkers’ come in and get bombed on. Here’s a quote from you elitists: “Learn how to play.”

“But I can kill Lupicus in 7 sec because that’s all I do all day.” Good for you, but put on your big boy pants and get into pvp or wvw if your really want to test your skills. Conditions are fine; mix in some Vitality. There’s even gear that provides vitality boosts.

::Gasp::, “It’s not Zerker so it sucks, and it won’t allow me to kill Lupicus over and over again in 7 seconds!!” “And Condi’s are OP, cuz I can kill Lupicus in 7 sec means I’m the best GW2 player ever, and someone beat me in WvW!!” Whaaaaa!!!

oZii.2864:

If every team in a tourney brings 1 engineer that doesn’t make it condition wars.

Especially if 18 out of 21 were running power variant builds.

dancingmonkey.4902:

oZii.2864:

If every team in a tourney brings 1 engineer that doesn’t make it condition wars.

Especially if 18 out of 21 were running power variant builds.

Yea I’m watching a TOL NA right now and I just don’t see this condition wars that people are talking about. TOL EU was the same NOT condition heavy.

I think all these claims stem from old meta’s, hot joins where you can’t pick your team, duels because this game is balanced around duels, and I can’t 1vX if there is a condition build around because the game is also balanced around 1vX.

If conditions where the end all be all these TOL matches would show it. It’s totally the opposite it’s mostly power/direct damage.

Anti-condition camp you lost this battle. The more tournaments that happen like TOL the less leg you have to stand on with a already weak argument. Spam the forums make 50 threads perception vs reality and no GW2 is not balanced around 1v1’s sorry to disappoint.

Seriously if it was so easy to bring a Condi Engi to auto win by killing the other teams Thief or Warrior teams would do that. That’s not whats happening instead they are bringing Power Engi’s obviously there is a reason for it.

I agree oZii. All this “no counter play” crying foul. When the best in the business at counter play have hours of of video proof that conditions are not OP and are extremely susceptible to counter play.