Guild Wars 2

And here i was hoping someone actually presented a compelling argument, backed with evidence and the mathematics to support them.

Ow well, better luck next time.

Terrahero.9358:

And here i was hoping someone actually presented a compelling argument, backed with evidence and the mathematics to support them.

Ow well, better luck next time.

It’s coming I’m too busy fixing the holes in my wall after rage quitting.

Radmage.3741:

NEVER should a DoT deal more damage on 1 tick than 1 hit of a burst skill

I’m sorry, you do realize this is absolute kitten, right? Have you ever seen a 10k condi tick? No? Well I’ve seen 15k direct damage in a single cast. 10k isn’t all that crazy either. And that is with PvE stats, in PvP in a group, you’re going to deal massively more damage than a condi build would ever dream of.

Bhawb.7408:

Radmage.3741:

NEVER should a DoT deal more damage on 1 tick than 1 hit of a burst skill

I’m sorry, you do realize this is absolute kitten, right? Have you ever seen a 10k condi tick? No? Well I’ve seen 15k direct damage in a single cast. 10k isn’t all that crazy either. And that is with PvE stats, in PvP in a group, you’re going to deal massively more damage than a condi build would ever dream of.

was it a warrior using kill shot or eviscerate? And why are you placing PvE in a PvP discussion? You obviously don’t know what you are talking about. Condi’s actually WILL and DO, more damage than a power spec in a group IN ANY PVP SITUATION be it WvW or PvP.

Radmage.3741:

Bhawb.7408:

Radmage.3741:

NEVER should a DoT deal more damage on 1 tick than 1 hit of a burst skill

I’m sorry, you do realize this is absolute kitten, right? Have you ever seen a 10k condi tick? No? Well I’ve seen 15k direct damage in a single cast. 10k isn’t all that crazy either. And that is with PvE stats, in PvP in a group, you’re going to deal massively more damage than a condi build would ever dream of.

was it a warrior using kill shot or eviscerate?

Probably a back stab rouge… condituons are so easy to counter and it takes time to even hit hard with them. As a power build hit much harder in less time
Its called burst vs dOt . Every class have ways to deal.with conditions, just because.you dont.spec to.deal with them does not mean they need to be nerfed

Radmage.3741:

Terrahero.9358:

And here i was hoping someone actually presented a compelling argument, backed with evidence and the mathematics to support them.

Ow well, better luck next time.

It’s coming I’m too busy fixing the holes in my wall after rage quitting.

By all means, dont keep us in suspense any longer. Do the one thing no one who has been raging on conditions so far has done, actually support your claims.

Radmage.3741:

was it a warrior using kill shot or eviscerate? And why are you placing PvE in a PvP discussion? You obviously don’t know what you are talking about. Condi’s actually WILL and DO, more damage than a power spec in a group IN ANY PVP SITUATION be it WvW or PvP.

WvW is a PvE situation in almost every respect (very, very slight differences).

Its very easy to do 7k+ damage in one hit in sPvP, however 7k condi ticks would require:
25 stacks of bleeds (2800 per tick)
25 stacks of torment (4200 per tick)

or, in simpler terms, something that is impossible. People who have access to multiple damaging conditions have them at severely reduced stacks, people who have access to only one could never deal enough damage.

Next time try to use some simple math with your argument to support it, instead of spouting utter nonsense.

I love the DoT Tick > Burst hit line.

Sure, if I play a Dire-geared character in full support build and use my Mesmer staff, the direct hit from it might do less damage than my burn ticks. Aye. That is, if I specifically gear and build to do as little direct damage as possible, it just might work!

When you can consider condies beeing in a good spot (or op) in pvp, what about condi duration food in wvw? For me it is broken, why such a food even exist? They should remove it along with cond reduction food, which also is hard counter, broken.

Bhawb.7408:

Its very easy to do 7k+ damage in one hit in sPvP,

Its very easy to avoid it too.

Bhawb.7408:

however 7k condi ticks would require:
25 stacks of bleeds (2800 per tick)
25 stacks of torment (4200 per tick)

However how do you manage to avoid 25 skills that deal 2condi stacks ? (average)

So yeah as you said Maths are strongh, but when you simplify them and forget like half the issue, result are always bad.

Conclusion:
Yes it deals way to much damage for the difficulty to apply them and the risk (there is no risk since you’re with tanky stuff (at least dire doesn’t exist in PvP … maybe not for long …))

Mattmatt.4962:

Conclusion:
Yes it deals way to much damage for the difficulty to apply them and the risk (there is no risk since you’re with tanky stuff (at least dire doesn’t exist in PvP … maybe not for long …))

Ah, and you conveniently ignored that the power-attacked has 24 hits left to deal after the first one you avoided? Nice nice.

So, apparently by your account (since you were ok with the direct hit), power-damage is much too good for the easy of application, dealing the damage every hit that conditions deal after 25 hits.

Geez, you basically said the exact opposite of what you said.

You are going to be hit by something if it’s direct damage or condition damage. Nobody is going unscathed in either battle.

Mattmatt.4962:

Bhawb.7408:

Its very easy to do 7k+ damage in one hit in sPvP,

Its very easy to avoid it too.

So you never get hit for more then 7k damage when you fight a power build? Not everything is a warrior with high telegraphed skills.

Conditions are only way how to defeat those bunker guardians and warriors in wvw.They are almost unkillable by power builds.If conditions will be nerfed,these bunker builds must be nerfed too or they will be almost immortal.

Mattmatt.4962:

Bhawb.7408:

Its very easy to do 7k+ damage in one hit in sPvP,

Its very easy to avoid it too.

Bhawb.7408:

however 7k condi ticks would require:
25 stacks of bleeds (2800 per tick)
25 stacks of torment (4200 per tick)

However how do you manage to avoid 25 skills that deal 2condi stacks ? (average)

So yeah as you said Maths are strongh, but when you simplify them and forget like half the issue, result are always bad.

Conclusion:
Yes it deals way to much damage for the difficulty to apply them and the risk (there is no risk since you’re with tanky stuff (at least dire doesn’t exist in PvP … maybe not for long …))

here is an example of someone who knows how to deal with conditions.
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/4031535

here is what you sound like.
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3439319

see the difference. Learn how/when to counter and cleanse conditions and you will not have many issues.

Mattmatt.4962:

Its very easy to avoid it too.

It is equally as easy to avoid any single set of condition applications.

Mattmatt.4962:

However how do you manage to avoid 25 skills that deal 2condi stacks ? (average)

So yeah as you said Maths are strongh, but when you simplify them and forget like half the issue, result are always bad.

Conclusion:
Yes it deals way to much damage for the difficulty to apply them and the risk (there is no risk since you’re with tanky stuff (at least dire doesn’t exist in PvP … maybe not for long …))

You don’t need to avoid 25 attacks. You get hit with 3 attacks and now you have a few bleeds, then a nearby guardian wipes his kitten and removes all the conditions from you and everyone else in the area. Then they cast a few more things and since you are a competent player you dodge them just like you’d dodge any other skill and now they’re left with barely half of what they need to maintain decent bleed stacks, and once they apply the rest you just wipe it with a condition removal.

First off, no viable bleed build that can stack 25 stacks exists in PvP. Necromancers can barely manage to get over 15, and that is if you are standing in melee range while afk, and it takes 4-5 seconds to fully stack that damage that deals 1/4th of a single power attack. Which is the point of dots, they don’t deal their damage right away, you get hit with the skill and it maintains an effect over time. Conditions deal massively less damage right away but deal strong damage if you allow yourself to consistently be hit with them and not cleanse.

So sure, I ignored reality a bit. In reality, a direct damage hit can in one skill cast hit for 4 times as much as a Necromancer, the “king” of conditions, using every single condition skill they have access to over 4-5 seconds to stack bleeds on you, and even if you eat every single skill, you can just wipe it all right after.

Bhawb.7408:

First off, no viable bleed build that can stack 25 stacks exists in PvP.

A warrior can do it, although not for very long. It also doesn’t requires the target to stand still.

You let enemy land 8 skills combo and then wonder why you take lot’s of damage.

Brando, sorry but the necro staring in your video is very bad (throw away so many skill on the shield stance at the very beginning). And there is food and blood lust by the way. (-40% condi duration imba food ?)

Ozii, you didnt get what i say.
The fact is that against a power build, you keep your evade for big attacks (and by the way, every big one is easy to avoid contrary to what you’re saying)
Against a condi build, for what do you keep your roll? exept spite signet (which is another issue but out subject) its mainly “little” attack that apply 2-3stack.

Bhawd, to really calculate the damage, we should look at how many damage aren’t applyed due to dispell on average. Even with an optimal use, many cleanse are on higher CD than condi-skill (not even motionning auto-attack able to deal 2differents ones). I don’t pretend to have the right number, but i think overall damage is higher for condi.

Mattmatt.4962:

Brando, sorry but the necro staring in your video is very bad (throw away so many skill on the shield stance at the very beginning).

Ozii, you didnt get what i say.
The fact is that against a power build, you keep your evade for big attacks (and by the way, every big one is easy to avoid contrary to what you’re saying)
Against a condi build, for what do you keep your roll? exept spite signet (which is another issue but out subject) its mainly “little” attack that apply 2-3stack.

Bhawd, to really calculate the damage, we should look at how many damage aren’t applyed due to dispell on average. Even with an optimal use, many cleanse are on higher CD than condi-skill (not even motionning auto-attack able to deal 2differents ones). I don’t pretend to have the right number, but i think overall damage is higher for condi.

actually I was traited with unblock-able marks so the shield cant block them

you should look the video again then, you used death-shroud’s skill on it
For the second one, i forgot to speak about him: what was his build ? maybe he just didnt have any cleanse, we donno, its the same as for the first one, what was the food ?
Your videos dont show anything

The correct statement would be dire, rabid and carrion do way too much. And rampager does way too little.

Runes like undead dont help this. Getting more damage from stacking toughness. What kind of logic is this? Turning reduced risk into increased reward.

Mattmatt.4962:

you should look the video again then, you used death-shroud’s skill on it

did I make mistakes, sure
would it have mattered if I played a perfect duel? Nope. -% condi food/runes will just beat any condi class and his damage was still very good.

So you’re “complaining” about food. Yes it’s an issue, and way bigger and more obvious one.
Obviously this food need to be nerfed before any condi change (same for the +40% one)

Mattmatt.4962:

So you’re "complaining" about food. Yes it’s an issue, and way bigger and more obvious one.
Obviously this food need to be nerfed before any condi change (same for the +40% one)

its not a complaint. I have no issues with -% food/runes. Use them. it just forces me to get better and find ways to get my damage off.

Radmage.3741:

Bhawb.7408:

Radmage.3741:

NEVER should a DoT deal more damage on 1 tick than 1 hit of a burst skill

I’m sorry, you do realize this is absolute kitten, right? Have you ever seen a 10k condi tick? No? Well I’ve seen 15k direct damage in a single cast. 10k isn’t all that crazy either. And that is with PvE stats, in PvP in a group, you’re going to deal massively more damage than a condi build would ever dream of.

was it a warrior using kill shot or eviscerate? And why are you placing PvE in a PvP discussion? You obviously don’t know what you are talking about. Condi’s actually WILL and DO, more damage than a power spec in a group IN ANY PVP SITUATION be it WvW or PvP.

i do 2-3k life blasts all the time lol. 7k unloads on my thief. your tone and argument kind of makes it obvious you don’t wvw/pvp much or know how to counter conditions. my suggestion: more hp and some cleanses. and i like how your first jump is to warrior. because y’know, a thief has never hit over 2k on a backstab. or a glass engineer has never hit a 6k blunderbuss.

spoj.9672:

Runes like undead dont help this. Getting more damage from stacking toughness. What kind of logic is this? Turning reduced risk into increased reward.

Power does better better in increasing defensive stats for offense or vice versa.
Turning reduced risk into increased reward:
- deadly strength: 10% toughness to power (necromancer)
- retrebutive armor: 7% toughness to precision (Guardian)
- performance enhancement: 10% healing power to power (Engineer)
- energized armor: 7% toughness to power (Engineer)
- strength of spirit: 7% vitality to power(Ranger)
- armored attack: 10% toughness to power (Warrior)
- rune of the worm: 7% vitality to ferocity (rune)
- rune of exuberance: 7% vitality to power(rune)
- rune of exuberance: 5% vitality to precision(rune)

Then you have the once that turn high reward into low risk for power:
- practiced tolerance: 7% precision to vitality (thief)
- soothing winds: 7% precision to healing power (elementalist)
- death into life: 7% power to healing power (necromancer)
- great fortitude: 7% power to vitality (warrior)

Compared to:
Turning reduced risk into increased reward:
- rune of the undead: 7% toughness to condition damage (rune)
- strength of stone: 10% toughness to condition damage (elementalist)
- chaotic transference: 10% toughness to condition damage (mesmer)
- rune of exuberance: 5% vitality to precision(rune)

Then you have the once that turn high reward into low risk for condition:
- practiced tolerance: 7% precision to vitality (thief)
- soothing winds: 7% precision to healing power (elementalist)

Edit: added rune of the worm/exuberance

Haha yet more whining about conditions. Out of my 8 characters, I only play condi on my engineer. But even now, I’m moving away from going full condi on my engi. Conditions work great against new players but in a more experienced and organized setting, it’s a lot harder to kill someone with, unless they’re specifically weak against conditions (i.e. engineers).

Tim.6450:

spoj.9672:

Runes like undead dont help this. Getting more damage from stacking toughness. What kind of logic is this? Turning reduced risk into increased reward.

Power does better better in increasing defensive stats for offense or vice versa.
Turning reduced risk into increased reward:
- deadly strength: 10% toughness to power (necromancer)
- retrebutive armor: 7% toughness to precision (Guardian)
- performance enhancement: 10% healing power to power (Engineer)
- energized armor: 7% toughness to power (Engineer)
- strength of spirit: 7% vitality to power(Ranger)
- armored attack: 10% toughness to power (Warrior)
- rune of the worm: 7% vitality to ferocity (rune)
- rune of exuberance: 7% vitality to power(rune)
- rune of exuberance: 5% vitality to precision(rune)

Then you have the once that turn high reward into low risk for power:
- practiced tolerance: 7% precision to vitality (thief)
- soothing winds: 7% precision to healing power (elementalist)
- death into life: 7% power to healing power (necromancer)
- great fortitude: 7% power to vitality (warrior)

Compared to:
Turning reduced risk into increased reward:
- rune of the undead: 7% toughness to condition damage (rune)
- strength of stone: 10% toughness to condition damage (elementalist)
- chaotic transference: 10% toughness to condition damage (mesmer)
- rune of exuberance: 5% vitality to precision(rune)

Then you have the once that turn high reward into low risk for condition:
- practiced tolerance: 7% precision to vitality (thief)
- soothing winds: 7% precision to healing power (elementalist)

Edit: added rune of the worm/exuberance

Exactly. I dont like any rune which does this especially runesets which are already good dps. Condi damage requires little investment so its a bit much in this case. Whereas traits like that arent much of a problem because they are so far in defensive lines the potential damage is already lost and wont be completely made up for by those traits. The runes are silly though. Even exuberenace and worm. Condi runes its a bit more so.

>>Ozii, you didnt get what i say.
The fact is that against a power build, you keep your evade for big attacks (and by the way, every big one is easy to avoid contrary to what you’re saying)
Against a condi build, for what do you keep your roll? exept spite signet (which is another issue but out subject) its mainly “little” attack that apply 2-3stack.

I have a p/d condition thief and a pure power thief.

My unloads from the pistols can do 7k+ damage. I have had them do 10k damage on squishies. This is not easily dodged.

This happens in around 2 seconds.

It is absolutely and completely IMPOSSIBLE to do that amount of damage with my condition thief.

Why do people persist in advancing the notion that conditions are OP?

In order to do the same amount of damage as my 2 second unload , I need to get 25 stacks of bleeds on in one and a bit seconds and have them remain for at least three seconds.

This is not possible. If I had 100 percent condition duration food it would not be possible. If I added in damage from torment, poison, confusion and was traited for them all it would still not be possible to do all that in ONE attack.

To get that sort of damage I need to BUILD up condition stacks over a long period of time and survive while I am building those stacks. I have to deal with that enemy cleansing those stacks forcing me to start all over again.

This is why condition builds need to be durable. It is also why they can never do as much damage in a short period of time as direct damage.

The issue is not that Condi is overpowered. The issue is people do not want to trait for dealing with them as they would rather invest in gear and sigils that do more damage.

That is a choice. Deal with the choice you made.

Conditions need a nerf.
Spvp is all about how fast you can apply/clense conditions now.

Vissy.5861:

Conditions need a nerf.
Spvp is all about how fast you can apply/clense conditions now.

but in High level play ToL for example Conditions didnt really have much of an affect on the outcome of a match.

babazhook.6805:

I have a p/d condition thief and a pure power thief.

My unloads from the pistols can do 7k+ damage. I have had them do 10k damage on squishies. This is not easily dodged.

This happens in around 2 seconds.

I think 7K+ is already on very squishy ones ^^ but ok.
(By the way an “unload” by a thief HAVE TO be avoided, at least half of it)

But to deals such damage, you’re forced to go full berserker or very near.
So yes condi will do less damage, but will it die ? certainly no, and you should be more aware of it than anyone else since you’re thief. Condi thief just can’t get killed in 1V1

If damage output from power is above condi’s, you at least have to aggre that the ratio reward/risk from condi is far above power’s one.
As i said in a previous post, its due to a badly designed damage calculation; only one stat to max for condi

PS:
@ brando, yes i understood you weren’t complaining, that why i used "
I couldn’t find another word better suited ^^

babazhook.6805:

>>Ozii, you didnt get what i say.
The fact is that against a power build, you keep your evade for big attacks (and by the way, every big one is easy to avoid contrary to what you’re saying)
Against a condi build, for what do you keep your roll? exept spite signet (which is another issue but out subject) its mainly “little” attack that apply 2-3stack.

Things like DS LB can hit for 5k+ on an auto attack. Certain other attacks hit for incredibly high on very, very short CDs.

Again, you have to compare relative damage. Power builds can easily hit for 3-4k on auto attacks, these are consistent hits every second just like a dot would be, except to get a 4k dot you need to stack multiple conditions quite highly, which involves landing 4-5 skills consistently, while the enemy has no cleanses (because unlike power condis can be countered even after the skill lands). Condi is only remotely viable for one reason: AoE application.

Let’s say you get a sit down with Jon Peters to plead your case that conditions are to strong.

You would have to prove that conditions are to strong despite the fact in high level s/tPvP condi builds aren’t the majority, WvW large scale battles are power damage dominated, and PvE where it’s direct damage.

The deck is stacked against the argument from the beginning.

Even if you make a decent argument about small scale WvW roaming, dueling, and lower tier sPvP, then the Devs would have to decide to nerf conditions for these areas that would nerf conditions in the others. 2 of which aren’t the objective of WvW or sPvP. If we use 2 areas that aren’t formally supported formats then you can say GvG’s that also aren’t formally supported and mirror what you see in other game modes.

What oZii said, basically.
Try picturing yourself in that situation. Conditions are woefully underused. The devs know about that (we can assume they pull statistics from the game). You still want them to nerf conditions. How do you argue this?

The argument against conditions is one of personal preference, people who simply dont ever want to deal with condition builds and simply want them removed from the game.

Tell people they need to get some defense against power-damage to not die to fast, like some toughness or stunbreakers, and everybody is fine with that.
Tell people they need to get some defense against condition-damage, such as vitality or condition removal, and people loose their minds and demand condition builds to be destroyed.

Because they want to run high burst damage builds, while neglecting defense against conditions, and get away with it.
Its why they are fine with the argument “burst is fine you just need more defense”. Because the alternative is admitting burst damage needs to be toned down, which would affect them personally.

People who argue for the Anti-condition Movement do so not for the sake of balance, or general game diversity, but out of sheer self-interest. They do not want to admit their builds are bad and adept them, instead a whole damage type should just be kitten.

“Hey devs, Rock is fine and should l2p and build to not die so easily to me. But Scissors needs a nerf.
Regards, Paper”

It would be great to know what the expected time to kill is for burst versus condition for a “standard” toon (a base of health, toughness and condition removals).

In short, the burst should be faster BUT higher risk of failing. Condition should be slower but much harder to get rid of.

It is perfectly fine for TTK to be faster for condition against burst classes and burst is faster than condition for condition classes. That makes perfect sense.

But is it that way?

One of the biggest problems is that condition damage simply doesn’t scale in a large fight forcing people to go burst. On the other hand, a small fight often favors condition damage. If that is the case, the balance is wrong because it essentially says “In some game modes there is a clear preference for one damage type over the other” which leads to class diversity problems. On the other hand, saying “one type of damage is better for about half the classes and types of mobs” works to ensure that every class has a role in each gameplay mode.

Can be put into perspective quite easily with the necro. Necro lupi solo takes around 8 minutes with berserker. When using rabid it can easily go under 7 minutes. Which doesnt make sense because rabid is a hell of a lot less risky then berserker. Condi gear stats have way too much pressure for the lack of risk they have.

spoj.9672:

Can be put into perspective quite easily with the necro. Necro lupi solo takes around 8 minutes with berserker. When using rabid it can easily go under 7 minutes. Which doesnt make sense because rabid is a hell of a lot less risky then berserker. Condi gear stats have way too much pressure for the lack of risk they have.

Umm, what? The first Rabid necro Lupicus solo took about 22 minutes. Even with more refined tactics (the tactics used were pretty refined just to accomplish it in the first place), that wouldn’t get cut by over half.

>>But to deals such damage, you’re forced to go full berserker or very near.
So yes condi will do less damage, but will it die ? certainly no, and you should be more aware of it than anyone else since you’re thief. Condi thief just can’t get killed in 1V1

You are not FORCED to go zerker to do high end damage. I traited for knights armor and near 18k health and my damage was still higher then a condition build with my auto attacks.

The condition builds still need the time to build up those stacks > It is immaterial whether the direct damage person is wearing Zerker or Soldiers when it comes to that point.

As to a thief “never dying 1v1”. That is a nonsensical argument. A Condition thief dies. His extra 700 in armor is not going to prevent him from dying. That extra armor will allow him to take a few more hits. That is all.

What saves the thief is his mobility, the stealth , and the choice of disengaging from battle. This is not due to that extra armor. If a thief used Soldiers armor they would have the exact same advantages. Going to a condition build does not change how much one can stealth or disengage with shadow steps and the like.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

spoj.9672:

Can be put into perspective quite easily with the necro. Necro lupi solo takes around 8 minutes with berserker. When using rabid it can easily go under 7 minutes. Which doesnt make sense because rabid is a hell of a lot less risky then berserker. Condi gear stats have way too much pressure for the lack of risk they have.

Umm, what? The first Rabid necro Lupicus solo took about 22 minutes. Even with more refined tactics (the tactics used were pretty refined just to accomplish it in the first place), that wouldn’t get cut by over half.

Current all time record for condi necro solo (before patch). Its possible to beat this, and I will be doing so once i have enough cm tokens for runes.
http://youtu.be/fryNu0KS8iQ
Time is 7 minutes and 28 seconds.

Current all time record for berserker necro solo (before patch). Will also be redoing this and it will be tough to get a similar time with nerfed crit damage.
http://youtu.be/Nk2NNMxp3t4
Time is 8 minutes and 34 seconds.

You cant rate first solos. The first mesmer and guard solos were like 30 minutes simply because of poor weapons/builds and ranging. The same goes for the first necro solo (he used a staff and 3 defensive utilities).

conditions don’t seem to do a lot of damage. They are great at tagging lots of enemies at once, but beyond that, they are far to easily countered.

Now what I find is more problematic just how much damage tanky builds do in relation to zerker builds. You put 2 of the same classe against each other, stick one in PVT gear and the other in zerker gear… and the PVT geared person will do more damage. How does one explain that?

This was even the case before the crit nerf, but of course with the crit nerf, this situation became even worse.

spoj.9672:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

spoj.9672:

Can be put into perspective quite easily with the necro. Necro lupi solo takes around 8 minutes with berserker. When using rabid it can easily go under 7 minutes. Which doesnt make sense because rabid is a hell of a lot less risky then berserker. Condi gear stats have way too much pressure for the lack of risk they have.

Umm, what? The first Rabid necro Lupicus solo took about 22 minutes. Even with more refined tactics (the tactics used were pretty refined just to accomplish it in the first place), that wouldn’t get cut by over half.

Current all time record for condi necro solo (before patch). Its possible to beat this, and I will be doing so once i have enough cm tokens for runes.
http://youtu.be/fryNu0KS8iQ
Time is 7 minutes and 28 seconds.

Current all time record for berserker necro solo (before patch). Will also be redoing this and it will be tough to get a similar time with nerfed crit damage.
http://youtu.be/Nk2NNMxp3t4
Time is 8 minutes and 34 seconds.

You cant rate first solos. The first mesmer and guard solos were like 30 minutes simply because of poor weapons/builds and ranging. The same goes for the first necro solo (he used a staff and 3 defensive utilities).

the only thing about your solo lupi argument is most of the time you run dungeons with a group.

if you had 5 condi necro’s on lupi you would still get around the same time due to 25 stack limit.
if you had 5 zerk necro’s on lupe you would get a much much better time because physical damage is not capped to stacks.

Brando.1374:

spoj.9672:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

spoj.9672:

Can be put into perspective quite easily with the necro. Necro lupi solo takes around 8 minutes with berserker. When using rabid it can easily go under 7 minutes. Which doesnt make sense because rabid is a hell of a lot less risky then berserker. Condi gear stats have way too much pressure for the lack of risk they have.

Umm, what? The first Rabid necro Lupicus solo took about 22 minutes. Even with more refined tactics (the tactics used were pretty refined just to accomplish it in the first place), that wouldn’t get cut by over half.

Current all time record for condi necro solo (before patch). Its possible to beat this, and I will be doing so once i have enough cm tokens for runes.
http://youtu.be/fryNu0KS8iQ
Time is 7 minutes and 28 seconds.

Current all time record for berserker necro solo (before patch). Will also be redoing this and it will be tough to get a similar time with nerfed crit damage.
http://youtu.be/Nk2NNMxp3t4
Time is 8 minutes and 34 seconds.

You cant rate first solos. The first mesmer and guard solos were like 30 minutes simply because of poor weapons/builds and ranging. The same goes for the first necro solo (he used a staff and 3 defensive utilities).

the only thing about your solo lupi argument is most of the time you run dungeons with a group.

if you had 5 condi necro’s on lupi you would still get around the same time due to 25 stack limit.
if you had 5 zerk necro’s on lupe you would get a much much better time because physical damage is not capped to stacks.

Yeah that wasnt my point though. My point was condi shouldnt be highest damage for no risk. Id be ok with it if the best condi set was pure glass, but it simply isnt.

spoj.9672:

Brando.1374:

spoj.9672:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

spoj.9672:

Can be put into perspective quite easily with the necro. Necro lupi solo takes around 8 minutes with berserker. When using rabid it can easily go under 7 minutes. Which doesnt make sense because rabid is a hell of a lot less risky then berserker. Condi gear stats have way too much pressure for the lack of risk they have.

Umm, what? The first Rabid necro Lupicus solo took about 22 minutes. Even with more refined tactics (the tactics used were pretty refined just to accomplish it in the first place), that wouldn’t get cut by over half.

Current all time record for condi necro solo (before patch). Its possible to beat this, and I will be doing so once i have enough cm tokens for runes.
http://youtu.be/fryNu0KS8iQ
Time is 7 minutes and 28 seconds.

Current all time record for berserker necro solo (before patch). Will also be redoing this and it will be tough to get a similar time with nerfed crit damage.
http://youtu.be/Nk2NNMxp3t4
Time is 8 minutes and 34 seconds.

You cant rate first solos. The first mesmer and guard solos were like 30 minutes simply because of poor weapons/builds and ranging. The same goes for the first necro solo (he used a staff and 3 defensive utilities).

the only thing about your solo lupi argument is most of the time you run dungeons with a group.

if you had 5 condi necro’s on lupi you would still get around the same time due to 25 stack limit.
if you had 5 zerk necro’s on lupe you would get a much much better time because physical damage is not capped to stacks.

Yeah that wasnt my point though. My point was condi shouldnt be highest damage for no risk. Id be ok with it if the best condi set was pure glass, but it simply isnt.

your risk is having your conditions overwritten by other non condi classes (single target boss) or the boss dying before you can reach the full damage potential which takes at least 10-20s to build up and maintain.

for solo content conditions are great. aside from that its subpar due to stacks and overwriting conditions.

for pvp well timed condi clear and -% duration food/runes with take a dump on most condi players.

If we have 2 sides to this argument about conditions and label a Anti-Condi camp and Pro-Condi camp for simplicity reasons the Pro-Condi camp and the Developers would probably have similar opinions.

Condition damage is an established damage type in GW2 much like critical damage. The difference with critical damage before was that it was not a normalized stat in how it scaled/functioned/equipped. It would be hard to give a good solid argument why a main damage type should be changed again when it is already normalized and functions similar to other stats in game and always has. Then on top of that is the stack cap which no other stat type has to deal with.

I don’t see any drastic changes to condition damage happening overall until something is done with the stack cap if that ever happens. Then the team can sit down for a hard look at conditions overall and address the stack cap at the same time.

Because someone using a condition build necro killed lupicus faster then someone playing a zerker necro, all condition damage, across the board, must be greater then all power damage with no risk?

You’re using one profession, on one boss fight outside of the context it should be taken, and project that finding upon the game as a whole.

Here’s a thought.

PvE bosses have very high armour. To compensate for otherwise dying to quickly to several power builds. Condition builds are already being limited by stacking poorly.
Take this fight out of context, like a solo-kill, and such mechanics shine through.
The high toughness to extend the boss’ life doesnt affect a condition build, but will significantly slow down a power build.

In short, the fight favors solo-condition builds over solo-power builds. I thats a far more likely explaination.

spoj.9672:

Yeah that wasnt my point though. My point was condi shouldnt be highest damage for no risk. Id be ok with it if the best condi set was pure glass, but it simply isnt.

Except Condi isn’t the highest possible damage, its the highest damage in this very specific situation you brought up. Math shows very quickly that condis simply don’t deal as much pure damage as power, the only reason condis are remotely viable in the game is because of the AoE application which keeps ticking away after people have split up, and the fact that it deals most of its max damage from a single stat.

Without a complete rework of the entire condi system, you can’t do much about that.

Yeah I know that. I still think rabid and carrion do way too much for the amount of defence they have. People would agree with this statement when talking about Dire, so why not rabid/carrion?

Not to mention almost all condi builds are ranged. Which reduces the risk even further. Its the main reason i hate it so much. Its not challenging at all to play yet it achieves such strong results in so many situations.

spoj.9672:

Yeah I know that. I still think rabid and carrion do way too much for the amount of defence they have. People would agree with this statement when talking about Dire, so why not rabid/carrion?

Because Rabid/Carrion are two offensive stats, one defensive? I would hope they have decent damage output, and it’s still lower than most power builds.

Also, since when were bomb engineers ranged? Since when were Sword/Sword warriors ranged?