Guild Wars 2

I for one, don’t think 1v1 balance in WvW is a big deal. If you ask me, WvW is not (first and foremost) a 1v1 arena and I like the uncertainty when roaming.

Now… if I read other posts in this sub-forum correctly, I guess many of you disagree with me. I’m fine with that, but I do feel it makes the dialogue harder if we don’t share basic ideas about “balance”, or at least know how other players think about it.

The feature pack is about to hit, I guess we’ll see a lot of posts regarding “balance”, and I’m interested in your views. No details, not WvW specifically, but rough ideas about the game mode(s) you know best — like how I started this post.

Tia

I agree with. As well do the devs. They have specifically stated WvW is not balanced for 11 and is not intended to be.

roaming in wvw is silly idea now a 1vs1 arena could be fun addition to the game
theres no balance in wvw 1vs1 its impossible to kill a mesmer or a thief there
and would not change my shouts with meditations just to be better at 1vs1

I agree also and this is a good post to get a feel for what other people think.

My issues with the “1v1” balance are:

• Nerf something based on 1v1 balance you indirectly make it weaker in group play.

My biggest issue:

• Duelers build to be self sufficient! Everyone knows that everyone does it that roams/duels. The problem is that you can’t have it all. The system is not designed for that and never will be. If something is your weakness it is there because you built a certain way but gw2 is designed around group play.

When you build in gw2 to be self contained to try to account for as much as possible. You are spreading yourself thin somewhere either healing, damage, burst, defense, or condition management. Example given same armor types a 30/30/0/0/10 thief will always do more damage then a 10/30/30/0/0 thief, but the latter chose shadow arts for self sustainment he spread himself a little thin even if he doesn’t realize it. The 30/30 thief chose damage over self sustainment he both made a choice.

I roam it is all I do mostly but I accept I can’t have it all and some enemies will be much tougher depending on what I am playing. Some of my classes handle more of the common situations better then others or some of the common 1v1’s better then others but I personally accept this. If I could have it all why would I ever need to build any other way the best build would be discovered and I wouldn’t try new and different builds. Really you would end up keeping your traits the same never changing them and throwing on support gear, direct damage gear, or condition gear.

I have seen on these board every single popular 1v1 build for most classes complained about and usually not just that build but the class in general because of that build.

The only ones I don’t think I have seen is any ranger build, med guards, and 20+ water, 30 arcana builds. I have seen spirit rangers duel and do well but not a complained about in duels mostly sPvP related.

i think balance should be based around the small scale 5v5.
do i think absolute balance is possible? no.
do i think pretty decent balance is possible? OFCOURSE!

for me balance should be based on multiple factors:

the risk Vs reward factor,
example of good balance:
a glass cannon ele will deal huge damage but sacrifice survival.
example of bad balance:
a hambow warrior will deal large damage while having semi-bunker survival.

the skill needed to dominate (i don’t mean compete, i mean really dominate)
example of good balance:
a s/d ele or shatter mesmer, both are ok, but can become amazing with practice.
example of bad balance:
a hambow warrior relying on damage immunities and massive passive health regen combined with CC skills that deal overtly large damage.

oZii.2864:

My issues with the “1v1” balance are:

• Nerf something based on 1v1 balance you indirectly make it weaker in group play.

This is a common misconception, for if a game is designed with 1v1 balance in mind it could exclude group utility from the equation, i.e. Abilities considered useful in (1+x)v(1+x) scenarios will be sub-par in 1v1, such as AoE’s.

oZii.2864:

My biggest issue:

snip

If I understood you correctly, it seems your biggest gripe with 1v1 balance is players complaining under the assumption that GW2 is balanced for 1v1, which doesn’t actually address 1v1 balance itself.

- You did make this remark however:

oZii.2864:

If I could have it all why would I ever need to build any other way the best build would be discovered and I wouldn’t try new and different builds.

It’s difficult, but not impossible to make different playstyles that are comparatively balanced. I don’t know if you’ll accept this as a good example — because it’s a different genre of game, but StarCraft achieves comparative 1v1 balance despite different playstyles and build orders between races.

Transposing for the RPG model: the reason you would try new builds would simply be to explore different (but near-equally effective), playstyles.

If anyone’s interested in reading some more 1v1 balance discussion — here’s a former topic of mine discussing just that:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/1v1-Balance/first

Thanks!

1. an even distribution of weight enabling someone or something to remain upright and steady.
“slipping in the mud but keeping their balance”
synonyms: stability, equilibrium, steadiness, footing More
antonyms: instability
stability of one’s mind or feelings.
“the way to some kind of peace and personal balance”

2. a condition in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions.
“overseas investments can add balance to an investment portfolio”
synonyms: fairness, justice, impartiality, evenhandedness, egalitarianism, equal opportunity.

Honestly, Balance in an MMO, at least in regards to PvP is a pipedream. It’s something that really can’t be achieved, which is why other MMOs like WoW never tried. It’s impossible to find a balance by making changes to class mechanics when 75% of your players(ie; feedback) don’t even understand the classes/builds they think are OP. Another part of the problem is that it seems some devs are absolute morons in regards to balancing classes. Whoever designed the current Prismatic Understanding trait for Mesmers is clearly not interested in any kind of balance, otherwise the trait would give you one of the three boons when you ENTER stealth, instead of every second you’re in stealth. The Hidden assassin trait for thieves has the exact same problem, which shows they either don’t have people with the know how to fix these things, or they simply don’t care to fix them.

Balance in today’s MMOs, in regard to PvP, is simply not feasible.

Erebos.6741:

If anyone’s interested in reading some more 1v1 balance discussion — here’s a former topic of mine discussing just that:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/1v1-Balance/first

Thanks!

This was a good read thanks for the link.

Balance is when a player has a reasonable chance of having a pretty good time in most all game modes. It includes areas of excellence (especially against other classes) and areas of weakness (especially against certain other classes).

Balance isn’t really skill v skill based, it is more of a role and utility feel.

jpersson.7368:

I for one, don’t think 1v1 balance in WvW is a big deal. If you ask me, WvW is not (first and foremost) a 1v1 arena and I like the uncertainty when roaming.

---

Now… if I read other posts in this sub-forum correctly, I guess many of you disagree with me. I’m fine with that, but I do feel it makes the dialogue harder if we don’t share basic ideas about “balance”, or at least know how other players think about it.

The feature pack is about to hit, I guess we’ll see a lot of posts regarding “balance”, and I’m interested in your views. No details, not WvW specifically, but rough ideas about the game mode(s) you know best — like how I started this post.

Tia

This is always the stance taken by people who either play whatever class is best at roaming or avoid 1v1 at all costs.

So which one is it?

Parktou.4263:

1. an even distribution of weight enabling someone or something to remain upright and steady.
“slipping in the mud but keeping their balance”
synonyms: stability, equilibrium, steadiness, footing More
antonyms: instability
stability of one’s mind or feelings.
“the way to some kind of peace and personal balance”

2. a condition in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions.
“overseas investments can add balance to an investment portfolio”
synonyms: fairness, justice, impartiality, evenhandedness, egalitarianism, equal opportunity.

Honestly, Balance in an MMO, at least in regards to PvP is a pipedream. It’s something that really can’t be achieved, which is why other MMOs like WoW never tried. It’s impossible to find a balance by making changes to class mechanics when 75% of your players(ie; feedback) don’t even understand the classes/builds they think are OP. Another part of the problem is that it seems some devs are absolute morons in regards to balancing classes. Whoever designed the current Prismatic Understanding trait for Mesmers is clearly not interested in any kind of balance, otherwise the trait would give you one of the three boons when you ENTER stealth, instead of every second you’re in stealth. The Hidden assassin trait for thieves has the exact same problem, which shows they either don’t have people with the know how to fix these things, or they simply don’t care to fix them.

Balance in today’s MMOs, in regard to PvP, is simply not feasible.

/thread
+1

Anyone truly believing there will be balance at some point, here’s a picture to inspire you:

This is an MMO. 1v1 balance shouldn’t even be a consideration. This is why you often see people refer to rock/paper/scissors for MMO’s.

Instead they should focus on smaller group combat and balance around that. Typically you would see them balance around 1 of each class being in a group, but you’d imagine 5v5 is the subset ANet has chosen to try and balance around (the problem with this approach is you run the risk of sidelining classes because you don’t give them something to provide like Rangers currently).

Once you’ve got your subset balanced, ensuring overall balance at larger numbers is easy to maintain because the only things that tend to get out of control quick is AE, Healing, and CC. This is why in other games you tend to have longer cooldowns on AE and heals and dminished returns on CC.

You’d honestly expect GW2 to be much easier to balance considering the game has a small AE cap and no where near the diverse healing options available in other games (why no dimished returns on CC is anyone’s guess). But that just hasn’t turned out to be the case here unfortunately.

For some reason, we’re still trying to get the basic 5v5 balance to a point where it’s playable. Not even mentioning how several classes can’t compete at all in the current set up or how others have only a marginal/niche based role at best.

Atherakhia.4086:

This is an MMO. 1v1 balance shouldn’t even be a consideration. This is why you often see people refer to rock/paper/scissors for MMO’s.

Instead they should focus on smaller group combat and balance around that. Typically you would see them balance around 1 of each class being in a group, but you’d imagine 5v5 is the subset ANet has chosen to try and balance around (the problem with this approach is you run the risk of sidelining classes because you don’t give them something to provide like Rangers currently).

Once you’ve got your subset balanced, ensuring overall balance at larger numbers is easy to maintain because the only things that tend to get out of control quick is AE, Healing, and CC. This is why in other games you tend to have longer cooldowns on AE and heals and dminished returns on CC.

You’d honestly expect GW2 to be much easier to balance considering the game has a small AE cap and no where near the diverse healing options available in other games (why no dimished returns on CC is anyone’s guess). But that just hasn’t turned out to be the case here unfortunately.

For some reason, we’re still trying to get the basic 5v5 balance to a point where it’s playable. Not even mentioning how several classes can’t compete at all in the current set up or how others have only a marginal/niche based role at best.

I think the 5v5 balance is always shifting but it does settle. There is always going to be picks and counter picks in s/tPvP. The new build system might help because then they can go in and adjust in game based on the comp. Still 5 roles 8 classes it is hard to not make the best at a specific role.

The issue is the ever changing meta you can’t really settle into a 1 build and get comfortable. Whenever a new balance patch hits the meta usually shifts even if it is slightly but this is the case in most online games with a PvP aspect.

I agree that it is much wiser to balance a game around team/group combat as opposed to 1v1. I also agree that “balance” is pretty much unobtainable in MMOs. What I want to add is that small imbalances can actually be good for the meta. If something is just a little stronger than everything else, it changes people’s strategies. Now an import thing to mention is that it’s only healthly so long as there’s SOMETHING in the game that counters the current meta.

A good example would be Condi Necros. They were so strong that many teams had two in PvP. About a month after Warriors received their healing buffs some realized that Hammer pretty much hard countered the meta Necro builds that had pretty much no way to resist control. Now Warriors are the meta and while SoloQ and Hotjoin were full of them I’m seeing more and more spike builds based around bursting them down and making the benefits of Healing Signet much lower since it’s strongest against conditions because they put so much towards condi mitigation. Decap Engis also counters Hammer pretty hard because they get protection from all the control. That being said that spec is way too strong when capture points are so small and a single player can deny a cap.

Sadly though, you only see this counterplay happening in higher-level play. Those in the lower and middle tiers seem to refuse to learn how to counter the meta, no matter what it is. I’ve played a lot of games but this forum community takes the cake when it comes to “nerf X.” Granted, I never played WoW so that could have been worse but considering some horror stories I’ve heard GW2 has never had any balancing snafus on that scale. Classism in GW2 is particularity bad, I’ve had people treat me like some sort of terrible person for playing Warrior, even though I played it since launch.

Right now I think the current state of the game’s balance is less about some classes being OP and more there not being enough variety on some classes and some not having any real viable options at all. Ideally, every class would be viable in every game mode and have plenty of options. If the strong classes keep getting nerfed we’re going to end up with everyone only having 1 or 2 builds and hating their class.

The real problem right now is how infrequent balance changes are. I don’t think I’m alone in thinking that I would rather have a small balance patch every month than one giant one every 6. These giant patches always introduce new bugs and throw everything into disarray. There’s letting the meta settle then there’s forcing weaker classes to wait ages and hoping they become less terrible.

It seems to me, that by definition, if a game is balanced, that you should lose 50% of every 1v1 fight you are in. It also seems to me that players who lose 50% of their 1v1 fights, like to make frivolous threads claiming either there profession is either under powered, or other professions are over powered.

dancingmonkey.4902:

It seems to me, that by definition, if a game is balanced, that you should lose 50% of every 1v1 fight you are in. It also seems to me that players who lose 50% of their 1v1 fights, like to make frivolous threads claiming either there profession is either under powered, or other professions are over powered.

Well of course! 50% win rate is unacceptable! I’m not average! I’m above average! I am the 51st percent!

dancingmonkey.4902:

It seems to me, that by definition, if a game is balanced, that you should lose 50% of every 1v1 fight you are in. It also seems to me that players who lose 50% of their 1v1 fights, like to make frivolous threads claiming either there profession is either under powered, or other professions are over powered.

If you are playing a 1v1 game, then I would argue that the typical player has a 1:1 win/loss ratio.

However, this is a 5v5 game, so it’s more like 1:1 for the team.

But that’s not how you achieve balance – it’s a means of measurement. And it’s not the only measurement, nor should it be evaluated in isolation.

Thedenofsin.7340:

dancingmonkey.4902:

It seems to me, that by definition, if a game is balanced, that you should lose 50% of every 1v1 fight you are in. It also seems to me that players who lose 50% of their 1v1 fights, like to make frivolous threads claiming either there profession is either under powered, or other professions are over powered.

If you are playing a 1v1 game, then I would argue that the typical player has a 1:1 win/loss ratio.

However, this is a 5v5 game, so it’s more like 1:1 for the team.

But that’s not how you achieve balance – it’s a means of measurement. And it’s not the only measurement, nor should it be evaluated in isolation.

Yeah… I was just kidding around… I know this isn’t a 1v1 game.

Balance in MMOs to me means that everyone feels powerful~overpowered.

I mean, given the sheer variety in game formats, we can’t reasonably expect such a complex game to be properly balanced for combat. Look at Blizzard still trying to balance PvE for an example of how difficult this is.

However, we don’t really need to! Balance is a perceived thing. So long as everyone feels their buttons cause enemies to die and allies to survive, we’re balanced “enough”.

Examples of effects which I think are “there”, from my Mesmer:

• Feedback (this probably most of all :P)
• Veil
• Mirror
• iZerker
• Decoy

These effects “feel” powerful the moment I use them.
And IMO the design goal should be to make everything feel that way. Or rather, make it feel like it either is this powerful, make it actually this powerful, or make it directly support an effect feeling or being this powerful.

That way, whatever I do feels meaningful.

It also puts less pressure on PvE + sPvP + WvW balance, because so long as I have 2-3 options for each slot on my bar which perform according to the above, I feel like I contribute and got options. All good.

Balance should mean that every class has a niche role, and that niche is required in all forms of combat be it PvP, PvE or WvW.

Given that there are 8 classes that is probably too many mechanics to create/manage, so some classes should simply perform the same role as well as another class does.

For PvE specifically, the enemy encounters should require all of the said niches/mechanics in order to be completed (starting to sound like a trinity…). That is not the case at the moment, as the only thing required is direct damage and one condition class.

To me balance is when two equally skilled players with a well configured character of two different classes both have a roughly equal chance of beating each other. It’ll never be perfect, but it should be close enough that if those 2 such players fight 1v1, it is difficult to be sure who is going to win.

At the moment it does not seem to come down to player skill alone, though that is just my subjective opinion from my experience playing over a year. I think it was more balanced when I started than now.

I can understand how it is hard to balance, but it seems very unbalanced at the moment, though maybe that’s because I play a D/D ele in PvP :-) Thieves annoy me the most for the sheer amount of damage they deal for the least amount of effort (I have played a thief for a short time to get an idea of this, and it felt like easy mode). You can tell something is wrong when you are having a good fight with someone that has lasted say 30 seconds or even a minute or 5, and then a thief just turns up and downs you (or your opponent) in about 2 seconds. It sort of spoils it and it feels so wrong.

I know there’s already a lot of crying about thieves so apologies for adding to it, and before anyone says L2P: I know there are some counters such as stun, but I don’t think this shifts the balance back to anywhere near even.

I won’t even go into conditions.. ;-)

Also the different health pools seem unbalanced. I’m not sure what the “cons” are of heavier armor. The pros are a bigger health / toughness pool… And warriors sure don’t seem to suffer with maneuverability, at least not to the extent that it shifts the balance back.

Oh well – looking forward to seeing what the patch does for balance!

Balance according to Gw2 should be every class being able to cover any role with a different playstyle but with the same efficience.

We are instead in an unbalanced trinity situation where some profession cover 2-3 trinity roles at once and Others 0.

LordByron.8369:

Balance according to Gw2 should be every class being able to cover any role with a different playstyle but with the same efficience.

I always found this to be a quite weird explanation, because it never goes on to define “role”.

Sure I can make my own guesses, but in the end it comes down to what you see as a role. “Playing a MMORPG, grouped”? It is a role. :P

If we’re talking classic RPG roles, then GW2 mostly washed them out. There’s no dedicated tanking, there’s just soaking (but that has always been an important part of every character in every RPG, you cannot do whatever you want to do if you’re dead). There’s personal healing and very light group healing, so that’s mostly out, too. There’s no dedicated damage role as a result of the other roles being eroded.
The three roles WoW mostly removed, CC, Debuffer and Buffer, they don’t exist either. At least not really.

Everyone is a hybrid somewhere in the centre, so going by that definition their balance works, but it’s also a very unsuited way to define balance as a whole, IMO.

It has nothing to do with what a player perceives or doesn’t perceive as balance, it’s a developer’s perspective on it (which is good, but not useful for marketing purposes).

oZii.2864:

Erebos.6741:

If anyone’s interested in reading some more 1v1 balance discussion — here’s a former topic of mine discussing just that:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/1v1-Balance/first

Thanks!

This was a good read thanks for the link.

You’re welcome, and I’m glad you liked it.

To those trying to define balance: it doesn’t change meaning when regarding RPG’s or whatever else, it simply means equal proportion.

So 1v1 balance for example aims to give each player comparative capability to afford them fair chance of winning, while group/team balance targets fairness between teams.

Erebos.6741:

So 1v1 balance for example aims to give each player comparative capability to afford them fair chance of winning, while group/team balance targets fairness between teams.

That’s not what I’m arguing against 1v1 balance anyhow.
My point is that the underlying class design of roleplaying games doesn’t scale down below a certain team size.

In other words, at some point you enter a territory where there is intentional imbalance. The namegiving roles, or more commonly called classes, of the RPGs.

For example, if a character playing a Paladin and another character plays a Wizard, and both are competing in a contest of absorbing arrow damage, naturally the Paladin will be better-suited for the task than the Wizard, as a result of her plate armour. Ofc I could give the Wizard an arrow-absorbing shield, but at that point all I did was effectively give the Wizard a limited plate armour. I eroded the class difference, and obviously when I erode the class difference, I erode the imbalances.

The question is: to what point do you want to do this erosion.
Small-scale enough, classes cannot be balanced as long as they’re effectively different.

One way to balance – the one favoured by many 1v1 loving players – is to reduce the effective number of classes. This is the “give everyone equal opportunity”-way of balancing.

The opposite is what I said above, make everyone equally overpowered in different things. This accepts that 1v1 will not be balanced – it depends on context – but trades it for everyone feeling useful in a group setting without needing to erode classes.

Balance for me would be elementalist being viable vs. burst/condition builds without being forced to use Stone Heart/Diamond Skin.

You know, actual balance, instead of mandatory hard counters?